I'd argue the best. Its lore, atmosphere, aesthetic, style and then boss fights and combat challenges -- I don't think I've ever found any Metroidvania or Metroid do it as good as or quite like Hollow Knight.
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Hollow Knight's weird map mechanic is driving me insane
- Thread starter Deleted member 29599
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Metroidvanias aren't for you, lesson learned.
Not even gatekeeping. That's just... what the genre is.
I loved the map mechanic and it's one of my favorite elements of the game. Feeling lost in a vast and menacing world is what made the game so special to me.
It's definitely not that high up on my list, but top ten, certainly. I love my Metroids and Igavanias too much.
I absolutely loved Hollow Knight, but it's not a perfect game by any means and its map/save systems were needlessly annoying. I didn't feel they added anything to the tension, just made the game more of a chore to play. Finding the map guy should have displayed the full map for the area, with areas you haven't been to greyed out IMO.
Navigating the map is honestly why I haven't finished the game. Maybe if I had time to just sit down and dump hours into the game I'd get through it, but days and weeks go by between sessions and figuring out where I am in the game and where I need to go next is such a chore I just don't feel like playing at all.
It's the point of the game, diving into the ruins of a dead civilisation with little knowledge of where to go or what you'll find. Like you said, tons of games give you overwhelming amounts of information and hand holding, it's nice for a game to do something different for once and nail it.
I agree though that healing and special attacks sharing the same resource was a mistake.
I agree though that healing and special attacks sharing the same resource was a mistake.
Really good game with well balanced gameplay and mechanics but the map and save points are pretty terrible.
A good metroidvania game makes exploring enjoyable, where you're pleasantly surprised by how the areas link together but I just found it a chore in the majority of HK.
A good metroidvania game makes exploring enjoyable, where you're pleasantly surprised by how the areas link together but I just found it a chore in the majority of HK.
The use of the map is one of my favourite things about the game to be honest. All the negative emotions people feel about the exploration are positives to me. I love getting lost and having to rely on my sense of direction.
Yeah it's pretty tough to me. I unlocked the 2nd level (green level) and I don't know what to do. I found the mapmaker in that level but I pretty much explored that place top to bottom (that I could without any powerups) and still dont' know what to do.
I'm someone who *hates* metroidvanias typically, and I fucking loved Hollow Knight's map system. Each of the areas is just the right size that I can keep a small mental map in my brain, and then the rush of joy when I hear the mapmaker's humming made the game feel so much more alive. I can't relate to these feelings at all OP.
I love the fast travel and bench system.
I love the fast travel and bench system.
I beat Hollow Knight last night and loved it
I feel like the map mechanic hate is kind of similar to the breakable weapons hate on BOTW
I get why people dislike them, but they were put in the game for a reason, and the game was designed around them
Having to start each new area without a map forces you to pay more attention to the layout, and gives you a huge dopamine hit when you hear the humming and finally get the map. It gives the game world a better sense of place
It's fine not to like it, but I think the game would be worse if it behaved the same way as every other game in the genre
Same as combat in BOTW would become really dull if you could just find one good sword and only ever use that forever
I feel like the map mechanic hate is kind of similar to the breakable weapons hate on BOTW
I get why people dislike them, but they were put in the game for a reason, and the game was designed around them
Having to start each new area without a map forces you to pay more attention to the layout, and gives you a huge dopamine hit when you hear the humming and finally get the map. It gives the game world a better sense of place
It's fine not to like it, but I think the game would be worse if it behaved the same way as every other game in the genre
Same as combat in BOTW would become really dull if you could just find one good sword and only ever use that forever
I love the map system and think it is one of the best features of the game.
It makes exploration both difficult and exhilarating. Not having a map or a marker the first time you enter an area really nails the feeling of entering an unexplored space. You don't know what's coming up and you always have to stay on your feet.
It's one of the things that made Dark Souls great as well.
It makes exploration both difficult and exhilarating. Not having a map or a marker the first time you enter an area really nails the feeling of entering an unexplored space. You don't know what's coming up and you always have to stay on your feet.
It's one of the things that made Dark Souls great as well.
Fun fact, Ori 2 is also gonna have a similar map system to the one from HK.
This just shows how good Team Cherry's mechanics are.
This just shows how good Team Cherry's mechanics are.
Yeah, it was annyoing as hell. Especially that one area in the center, where you can get the map only very late in the game. So I was constantly checking around that place and doing same stuff over and over again because I thought I missed something.
Yeah I thought the game could have been more lenient with the map, compass, and other quality of life features. I think every developer should try not to throw unnecessary obstacles in front of the player.
The stuff I mentioned doesn't enhance anything, so it should have been designed differently.
The stuff I mentioned doesn't enhance anything, so it should have been designed differently.
I just started playing three days ago. I personally haven't minded it. The areas so far are pretty cyclical. It's also not hard to locate the map seller. He's pretty audible and his paper scraps are seen a decent way aways from him. It's been a great experience so far.
I've bounced off the game a couple times already and irritations like the map system, fast travel system and lack of any real sense of growth are the main reasons. After three hours of exploring I felt like was working too hard for upgrades that are considered basics in other games: maps, fast-travel points, a basic dash move.
Add to this this simplistic and uninspired combat and it's hard to stay invested.
Add to this this simplistic and uninspired combat and it's hard to stay invested.
I feel you, OP. I have dropped the game for the reasons you mentioned. The artstyle is gorgeous and the controls are great but the map/level design was very confusing as everything looked almost the same for me. Personally the game was the biggest disappointment of 2018 for me as I was very hyped for it.
Accidentally stumbling into the [WON'T SPOIL IT] and then having to navigate my way out of it without a map was the greatest gaming moment of the last 5 years for me. I almost thought I'd done goofed and almost restarted the game. But I made it through and getting back to "civilisation" after 3 hours or so was so goddamn good.
So no, I'll defend this feature to the death. Also, most times it was extremely easy to find the mapmaker and outside of the area described above It never seemed like a real barrier to me.
So no, I'll defend this feature to the death. Also, most times it was extremely easy to find the mapmaker and outside of the area described above It never seemed like a real barrier to me.
you never played enough to get to the meat of the game. HK has some of the best 2D combats in any metroidvania.
Late game HK with all his powers is amazing.
I bought this game on sale recently but haven't played it yet. However a friend didnbring his Switch round a while back and I tried the game on his Switch. It's a game my friend was gushing about and I could tell he wasn't happy with all the complaints I was making in the hour I was playing. I don't want to upset anyone, but man that 1 hour I played of Hollow Knight was chock full of design decisions I hated. The frustration I was having at having zero direction, going back and fourth not knowing where to go or having any reference to where I was or where I've been. I remember unlocking the map and being like WHAT'S THE FUCKING POINT IF I CAN'T SEE WHERE I AM?! Of course it wasn't long before I got that ability too but that shit should just be there from the start.
The bench system also seemed annoying as fuck. The gameplay wasn't very interesting in general. All in all I didn't have a good time.
I'll give it a proper go at some point now that I own the game. Hopefully it'll click eventually but man that first hour was yikes.
The bench system also seemed annoying as fuck. The gameplay wasn't very interesting in general. All in all I didn't have a good time.
I'll give it a proper go at some point now that I own the game. Hopefully it'll click eventually but man that first hour was yikes.
Yeah, I don't mind this. I think it makes the game a bit less formulaic and "gamey" and more dynamic, as you (like, yourself, as the player) have to remember where to go and try not to get lost. I mean, the concept of really getting lost in games got... lost over the years, so it's a nice change of pace to me.
I felt the same as you. Its why I dropped the game after 5 - 6 hours. Its beautiful but these aspects of it, specially the map mechanics just made the game not fun to play for me. I found myself thinking of the game as a chore that had to be done and I didn't like that.
Map mechanic is the best thing in the game.
It emphasises that the knight is a stranger to the world, that everything is unknown, that it isn't a cartographer and reliant on others with those skills and that it can't do everything itself. From a player perspective it makes you more aware of your surroundings, creates a sense of tension and apprehension in unknown areas and map becomes less important until you are looking for unexplored areas, it wants you to make notes of things for later and engage with the world in a methodology similar to if you were in the knights shoes.
Exploration is one of the biggest draws of the genre and Hollow Knights map system is the best implementation of one in a metroidvania outside of removing it completely.
It emphasises that the knight is a stranger to the world, that everything is unknown, that it isn't a cartographer and reliant on others with those skills and that it can't do everything itself. From a player perspective it makes you more aware of your surroundings, creates a sense of tension and apprehension in unknown areas and map becomes less important until you are looking for unexplored areas, it wants you to make notes of things for later and engage with the world in a methodology similar to if you were in the knights shoes.
Exploration is one of the biggest draws of the genre and Hollow Knights map system is the best implementation of one in a metroidvania outside of removing it completely.
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maybe cause I haven't played many games like this but I really enjoyed looking for the map guy whenever I enter a new area, always gives me the feeling I am not alone. If you understand. Whenever I heard his tune always brings the feeling that someone else is undergoing the journey with the main character
It was a great game but the fast travel points are poorly placed, that I have to agree.
It was a great game but the fast travel points are poorly placed, that I have to agree.
I found that, in areas I could handle with the abilities I had, finding the mapmaker through his papertrail and humming was fairly fast. If I couldn't find him fairly quickly, it usually meant there was something stopping progress that I needed an ability for, and so I went and chipped away at the map elsewhere for a while. One of the things I really like about HK is that there is a huge amount of non-mandatory areas to explore, I was often wondering whether I was on the right path at all, before stumbling into something important. To me that was part of the appeal of the game.
But you didn't have to. Early on in the have you could
pay the bug to bring your soul right to you.
Considering you have a Bloodborne avatar, I think you would love this game if you gave it a bit more time. The feeling of exploration without hand-holding (game isn't linear at all, you can decide where to go next from very early on, playthroughs can be quite different) and the quality of the bosses made me love this game as much as From titles since I've found them quite similar in some aspects. I see some people saying the Souls combat is nothing more than dodging and using R1, and while that's true at some degree (when some bosses only give you a very small openings making you use your fastest attack and dodge right after) I always felt that's selling the game incredibly short since the intensity of the boss fights is their strongest aspect for me, learning the patterns and when to go in and out without getting greedy. In HK the combat in general and boss fights are exatcly the same, it's not about a crazy moveset and combos. Though it's true that it takes a while to get all your moves and spells.
It's worth it though. These videos are end game content, showcasing two different builds (melee and spells) and also two boss fights from the last DLC.
Melee: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJnpYTq8KWE
Spells: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV8YjPF-w9w
Boss 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9U0AJP1L-E
Boss 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GkBmbOsynU
I don't agree with the uninspired combat at all, though I understand it can feel that way early on. Two things set it apart for me, your abilities reset when you do a "pogo" on the enemies head which give you a lot of mobility, and you generate soul to use your spells by hitting the enemies (3 hits -> 1 use of magic/healing) so there's no playing passively. These past few years I've been playing a ton of 2d games, especially metroidvanias, and HK is still the game with the tightest combat and best bosses (without gimmicks, thank god). A lot of games don't even let you attack upwards/downwards which is kinda infuriating after coming from HK lol
Not everything's for everyone. I can absolutely understand why certain aspects of HK might turn some people off the game, but for me I don't think it wouldn't have been the incredibly special experience it was if they hadn't completely followed through with their concepts in the way that they did.
If you don't want to sometimes feel lost while exploring this underground world, truly exploring, not following a marker to a pre-determined goal, then Hollow Knight just isn't for you, and that's absolutely fine.
If you don't want to sometimes feel lost while exploring this underground world, truly exploring, not following a marker to a pre-determined goal, then Hollow Knight just isn't for you, and that's absolutely fine.
This. I loved the map mechanic. There was a sense of discovery and being lost in this vast world that's so good.
Gah, this is one of those games that I wish I could somehow play for the first time again.
Yeah I love that it is not a extradiagetic thing running in the background of the game, but rather a gameplay mechanic that has a place in that world. It felt more natural and realistic than a map das does everything for you. It made the humming of the mapmaker a great moment whenever you encountered it, following his sheets of paper like breadcrumbs to his hideout.
It also makes sense that in a dangerous world like Hollownest, only a place of respite allows you to sit down and not down what you just experienced.
Me too OP!
I thought getting the map would sort me out, then I went off to other areas in the first zone and realised I didn't have a map, it was then I googled the fact I have to find him in the other areas too to get the map for the further levels.
I thought getting the map would sort me out, then I went off to other areas in the first zone and realised I didn't have a map, it was then I googled the fact I have to find him in the other areas too to get the map for the further levels.
OP
OP
Seems like it's a very divisive "you either love it or you hate it" kind of thing. To be clear, it's not like i want a map at all times, in fact i would be fine if the map maker guy didn't exist at all. The big stumbling point is not being able to see your own progress that you make without finding the map guy. The thing i like about Metroidvania's is poking around the world and getting a feel for where i should be going and trying to remember places to return to when i see something that requires a powerup/ability i don't yet have. What makes this especially difficult in HK and the source of most of my frustration is that this is made way more difficult if you don't have a reference point for where you are in the area, compounding this is the fact that HK has a pretty samey aesthetic. I reckon Super Metroid could easily have done without the map stations because the game world is so visually distinct. Compare say the lush green Brinstar to the red caverns of lower Brinstar and that's part of the same general area.
Now of course i've not completed HK but something tells me the game isn't suddenly going to drop me into a sunny forest area, i'm fully expecting the same dark area's with slightly different shades of dark. I do think as much as the game seemingly wants you to get lost with this map system that it shouldn't have marked boss locations so clearly on the map, seems entirely at odds with the emphasis the game wants to place on getting lost and exploring.
Now of course i've not completed HK but something tells me the game isn't suddenly going to drop me into a sunny forest area, i'm fully expecting the same dark area's with slightly different shades of dark. I do think as much as the game seemingly wants you to get lost with this map system that it shouldn't have marked boss locations so clearly on the map, seems entirely at odds with the emphasis the game wants to place on getting lost and exploring.
I'm mixed on it. There is a good tension when you're 10-15 minutes into uncharted territory but it being a 2D stage doesn't make things as easy to remember as something like Dark Souls.
You are given maps, in most cases, pretty early onto most stages provided you aren't like me and miss the page hints half the time.
You are given maps, in most cases, pretty early onto most stages provided you aren't like me and miss the page hints half the time.
Honestly this largely ruined the game for me. Whenever I think, hey I should finish Hollow Knight, I remember that, if I die, I will spend a lot of time I don't want to spend on something I don't want to do. And so I play something else.
Is it though? I pretty much only used it when I was in exploration mode. If I was working on a difficult boss I'd learn the way from the nearest bench within a few tries and drop it front make space for something with more combat utility.
Every time I see a thread criticizing HK's map system I'm reminded just how much people hate getting lost in video games. I love it personally. Though I don't recall actually being lost in Hollow Knight. Benches are pretty common and Cornifer is rarely difficult to find. The areas are generally small enough that finding your way back to your corpse if you die should be pretty easy and painless unless you have the memory of a goldfish.