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Hollow Knight just feels like work (LTTP)
- Thread starter ObbyDent
- Start date
HK is simultaneously the best and worst recent Metroidvania
+very unique setting
+great atmosphere and music
+lots of enemy types and areas
-the knights skill progression feels generic and kind of basic. No skill really stands out, movement is extremely derivative outside of bouncing on enemies.
-the world layout just feels like they kept on adding new areas so its messy and massive, no awesome shortcuts like most of these games.
-the character/enemy art does not feel very cohesive with the world which is much more detailed.
+very unique setting
+great atmosphere and music
+lots of enemy types and areas
-the knights skill progression feels generic and kind of basic. No skill really stands out, movement is extremely derivative outside of bouncing on enemies.
-the world layout just feels like they kept on adding new areas so its messy and massive, no awesome shortcuts like most of these games.
-the character/enemy art does not feel very cohesive with the world which is much more detailed.
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As I always say. I loved it and I am NOT a fan of metroidvanias usually, so it's doing something right, clearly.
And I was terrified by the difficulty at first. Being killed by early enemies.
There are a few frustrations here and there but it's really not that bad as long as you don't try the some of the silly crazy side-boss (from DLC I think ?).
These are for mad players.
Very much looking forward to the next one.
And I was terrified by the difficulty at first. Being killed by early enemies.
There are a few frustrations here and there but it's really not that bad as long as you don't try the some of the silly crazy side-boss (from DLC I think ?).
These are for mad players.
Very much looking forward to the next one.
I'm not particularly experienced in the Metroidvania genre but I had no issues at all with the level design, size of the maps or the checkpoint system in HK. In fact I really liked the how the map system worked. Hearing the dude furiously scribbling would bring about the exact same feeling of relief I would get from a bonfire in a Souls game. When a game can make you feel relieved, it's a sign they've created a tense experience and i think this works in HK's favour.
Maybe the game just isn't for you OP. It's perfectly okay to not like a good game.
Maybe the game just isn't for you OP. It's perfectly okay to not like a good game.
the aesthetic of the game is fantastic but i really disliked the gameplay. the swordplay / skill usage is pretty barebones tbh, the map system is horrible, and traversing the world isn't all that fun
I also couldn't get into it. I think I just get lost way too easily and it made backtracking not fun for me. For the record, I can play through and enjoy Soulsborne just fine even though those lack maps as well but in Hollow Knight it didn't work for me.
Steamworld Dig 2 is still the best Metroidvania game I've played.
Is Steamworld Dig 2 considered a Metroidvania? I played it on release so it's been a while, but I remember it being entirely linear with minimal exploration?
I thought it was more just an action platformer than metroidvania.
....Unfinished??
What in the seven hells. That's so insulting. Game is super polished and has more content than most AAA games.
Now I'm even more confused. Every area and boss fight has music...
Like OK guys you can dislike the game and even think it's overrated, but saying it "feels unfinished" or that it has "no music" are flat-out untrue.
I'm in the camp of it being overrated, I usually love those types of games, so it should have been an easy one to get into. I put in around 10 hours and felt it just didn't do anything for me.
It's annoying when fans try and tell you that you're wrong when saying that this title is overrated. There seems to be quite a few people who agree that the title doesn't match up with high praise it always gets.
It's annoying when fans try and tell you that you're wrong when saying that this title is overrated. There seems to be quite a few people who agree that the title doesn't match up with high praise it always gets.
The only thing I didn't like about it, and the reason I stopped playing (though I intend to get back to it at some point) is the lack of a more accessible and useful map. I really do understand why some people like the way it is, but I honestly can't stand it.
I never understood this concept. You don't think a couple of hours is quite long enough, so you need to put in an extra couple to check that you REALLY don't like it?
Fuck that, I've put a game down inside the first 20 minutes before and never looked back.
Yes, I agree, not everyone likes everything. But these Hollow Knight threads where people feel disappointed by what they've played vs the praise it gets are common. It's the very definition of overrated.
I would have dropped it a lot quicker had it not been for people saying that it takes a while to hit its stride.
I'm less than 5 hours into it, but so far, I'm not really feeling it. It's actually the first Metroidvania game I've played that doesn't inspire me to keep coming back to it. I'll finish it eventually, but I'm not understanding the hype for it so far, other than the art style being top notch.
Edit: I'd like to add to what NinjaBoiX said above. I've seen a lot of people say that X game gets better after X amount of hours, but I've never understood that myself. I usually like a game right away; it shouldn't take more than 10-20 minutes for anyone to figure out whether they would want to play another 10-30 hours of basically any given game.
Edit: I'd like to add to what NinjaBoiX said above. I've seen a lot of people say that X game gets better after X amount of hours, but I've never understood that myself. I usually like a game right away; it shouldn't take more than 10-20 minutes for anyone to figure out whether they would want to play another 10-30 hours of basically any given game.
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Why? Let the average readers discuss James Joyces Ulysses, and I'm certain that it, though a critically acclaimed work, will have failed to connect with a huge number of them.
Except for the people who, in this very thread, said they played it for hours and didn't like it or were ambivalent and then it did eventually click. Clearly their experience can't be ignored. Maybe not everyone can immediately assess a game in half an hour.
Should it be really seen as critically acclaimed if only a small percentage of a potential audience appreciates it for what it is?
Are you arguing that Joyces Ulysses isn't critically acclaimed? Or for that matter that Hollow Knight isn't?
https://www.metacritic.com/game/switch/hollow-knight
A small percentage? Roughly 46,000 reviews on steam currently. 95% positive. These threads aren't indicative at all of the general consensus.
You'd be a lot better off arguing without couching it in lazy ass words like "overrated" and, y'know, actually putting out some meaningful criticism toward the game. There are tons of critically acclaimed games I strongly dislike but I'd never begin to assume I could trot out "overrated" with my hands on my hips and act like that means anything at all, cos it doesn't.
Edit:
And specifically referring to your point here: there's no reason why there'd be anything wrong with something being both critically acclaimed and simultaneously divisive. It happens all the time and there are myriad reasons. This just isn't a good example of it.
My argument is that Hollow Knight has this label that it 'must be played' according to your link. When the reality is that there are quite a few people that have played it, but the reviews don't match up with their experience.
I actually see more threads about HK from people LTTP that proclaim its excellence on here than probbaly any other game.
Whenever people complain about the map system in Hollow Knight it just reinforces my theory that as games add more and more handholding type mechanics for 'player comfort' over years, players just get so used to them that they lash out when those are taken away.
The map system in Hollow Knight suits it perfectly, it restored the actual feeling of exploration and discovery that the genre had lost after years of auto-filling Castlevania maps became the norm. Use your own intuition and directional senses and it works out fine.
Hollow Knight is a masterpiece and the brilliant map system is just one part of that.
The map system in Hollow Knight suits it perfectly, it restored the actual feeling of exploration and discovery that the genre had lost after years of auto-filling Castlevania maps became the norm. Use your own intuition and directional senses and it works out fine.
Hollow Knight is a masterpiece and the brilliant map system is just one part of that.
When it first came out it was PC exclusive, and the high praise it got was given a side eye because so many people couldn't play it yet. It also upended the traditional hierarchy of all time great metroidvanias with people putting it up there with SoTN and SM which is always going to ruffle feathers and lead to unnecessary backlash.
And yet the post above yours cite that 95% of the user review on steam are positive, something that I was unaware of. The overwhelming majority does seem to be in agreement that it is in fact a great game. It's fine to dislike something most people like, it happens to me all the time, but that doesn't make it overrated in any way.
Agreed. I relished the opportunity to play a game that let me get lost in it's world. A typical Castlevania map would have significantly lessened the appeal for me.
It's a really good game but yea I found the world traversal a real chore. Too much use of the map every few seconds, every little room is like a maze so constantly checking which exit you need to come out at just to access the neighbouring room etc, I personally thought the design here was straight up shit. I get ppl saying they like being lost in the world etc but all the rooms within a zone mostly look like cut and pasted tiles with different layouts so I wasn't that immersed in the world to be feeling this.
The backtracking.....I've played and finished a majority of the big metroid-vania like games and I can't remember the backtracking to be so frequent and so cumbersome in a game ever. There was so much of it and combined with the problem above I just loathed having to travel anywhere in the game.
Nice chunky sprite design but cramped AF screen/rooms. As much as I love the artwork and character designs most of the boss fights are done in extremely cramped spaces (why couldn't they utilise scrolling more?!) which led me to just swap out charms for health stuff and just tanking most bosses. Again shit design that could've been negated with a little bit of horizonal/vertical scrolling.
I completely get where the OP is coming from but I was able to finish it (over 100% completion...just couldn't beat nightmare grimm and that crazy optional platforming section but aside from that saw and did everything else).
The backtracking.....I've played and finished a majority of the big metroid-vania like games and I can't remember the backtracking to be so frequent and so cumbersome in a game ever. There was so much of it and combined with the problem above I just loathed having to travel anywhere in the game.
Nice chunky sprite design but cramped AF screen/rooms. As much as I love the artwork and character designs most of the boss fights are done in extremely cramped spaces (why couldn't they utilise scrolling more?!) which led me to just swap out charms for health stuff and just tanking most bosses. Again shit design that could've been negated with a little bit of horizonal/vertical scrolling.
I completely get where the OP is coming from but I was able to finish it (over 100% completion...just couldn't beat nightmare grimm and that crazy optional platforming section but aside from that saw and did everything else).
The way the map works pisses off a contingent of people, but I feel like it just adds to the atmosphere the game is trying to sell: You getting lost. There are ways to mitigate this pretty quickly anyway though via the optional charms and being able to find Cornifer pretty quickly into every zone, save for one early one that you can only really travel through initially, until much later in the game.
Ultimately, not every game is for everyone, and that's okay. And not every genre is either... if you don't like Metroidvanias, you aren't going to like this.
That said, I personally found Hollow Knight to be the best Metroidvania game ever made hands down. Not only is the art style fantastic, but exploration is genuinely encouraged and the game is fairly non-linear after the introductory hours. It also has far more content than every other game in the genre, and yet you can still "beat the game" and see the credits in a much shorter length of time if you so desire.
To me what makes Hollow Knight great is that it offers up exactly as much as you want to get out of it.
Do you want to get lost in a massive world and explore as much or as little at you want, in any direction you want? You can.
Do you want to master the combat system and face difficult optional bosses that require perfect precision? You can.
Do you want to master the platforming and take on challenges akin to a Super Meat Boy game? You can.
But also... you don't have to do any of that. You just want to critical path a cool Metroidvania game? You can.
Ultimately, not every game is for everyone, and that's okay. And not every genre is either... if you don't like Metroidvanias, you aren't going to like this.
That said, I personally found Hollow Knight to be the best Metroidvania game ever made hands down. Not only is the art style fantastic, but exploration is genuinely encouraged and the game is fairly non-linear after the introductory hours. It also has far more content than every other game in the genre, and yet you can still "beat the game" and see the credits in a much shorter length of time if you so desire.
To me what makes Hollow Knight great is that it offers up exactly as much as you want to get out of it.
Do you want to get lost in a massive world and explore as much or as little at you want, in any direction you want? You can.
Do you want to master the combat system and face difficult optional bosses that require perfect precision? You can.
Do you want to master the platforming and take on challenges akin to a Super Meat Boy game? You can.
But also... you don't have to do any of that. You just want to critical path a cool Metroidvania game? You can.
As you backtrack, you learn the layout pretty well -- especially of the most central/revisited areas. Regardless, the game offers several different fast travel options as you explore the world. Traversal is never really that inconvenient once you get a few hours in. Having played as much of it as you have, I am sure you are aware of what I'm talking about. I can't imagine playing that much and still having an issue with backtracking given all the options.
Same here. I got really frustrated with it and put it down. I am a dirty, filthy, metroidvania slut. I just didn't like hollow knight.
It is crazy because, on paper, I should like it.
Stop pretending that the ERA bubble is indicative of how the majority of consumers feels about something.
Yeah, it's just not my thing either and I love Metroidvanias. It does feel like work, I agree. I won't say it's overrated, though — clearly there's something there and it has a ton of fans.
But also as you said, top-notch atmosphere. The art and especially animation are insane.
But also as you said, top-notch atmosphere. The art and especially animation are insane.
I loved the unique map mechanic, but after sinking several hours into it, the combat was just lacking variety for me.
Like the jump-and-swing gameplay is fun, don't get me wrong, but it just got kind of tiring when I was applying it to every enemy (with some minor variations here and there). I got some magic-y attacks eventually, but they just didn't mix things up enough for me.
It was still a fun 6-8 hours that I got out of it, but I don't see myself bothering to go back to it at this point, unfortunately.
Like the jump-and-swing gameplay is fun, don't get me wrong, but it just got kind of tiring when I was applying it to every enemy (with some minor variations here and there). I got some magic-y attacks eventually, but they just didn't mix things up enough for me.
It was still a fun 6-8 hours that I got out of it, but I don't see myself bothering to go back to it at this point, unfortunately.
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I don't like the idea that somehow this is people on this forum exclusively misleading people or something. The game was very widely critically acclaimed and raved about all over the place. It's not just here.
It's okay to have a dissenting opinion, but I think the game is irrefutably well made.
It's also okay to be less skilled at a particular genre or specific game, or just not enjoy specific genres. But that isn't the game's fault. Not all games are made for every person.
I also am not a fan of people taking issue with the game not holding your hand enough when so many other video games these days go the complete opposite direction and literally have an arrow that tells you where you need to go. Hollow Knight isn't a video game that plays itself, and I think that is also a big part of why it felt so refreshing to a lot of people.
It's okay to have a dissenting opinion, but I think the game is irrefutably well made.
It's also okay to be less skilled at a particular genre or specific game, or just not enjoy specific genres. But that isn't the game's fault. Not all games are made for every person.
I also am not a fan of people taking issue with the game not holding your hand enough when so many other video games these days go the complete opposite direction and literally have an arrow that tells you where you need to go. Hollow Knight isn't a video game that plays itself, and I think that is also a big part of why it felt so refreshing to a lot of people.
I liked Hollow Knight, but I understand the feeling that it "feels like work". For the most part, I thought that most enemies took too many hits to take down, and this feeling was even stronger with bosses. I didn't mind how it handled its maps though. It gave the game a unique feeling.
The game is great and I usually dislike Metroidvanias. It could be a bit more accessible but I guess that's exactly what people enjoy about it, just like with Souls borne games. No handholding at all. It could use some more quicktravel points though. And checkpoints before bosses. This whole "you need to run to the boss again"-shit really has to die out. It doesn't make games harder just more annoying.
It's the jumping mechanic that puts me off. It's impossible to adjust your jump in mid-air, it's just so sensitive that any compensation you make is
over the top.
The looks and sounds the game makes are brilliant though.
It creates a beautiful atmosphere dripping with humid insect nest goodness.
I just found dying from the uncompromising control system two screens away from the sofa I just re-spawned at very frustrating.
over the top.
The looks and sounds the game makes are brilliant though.
It creates a beautiful atmosphere dripping with humid insect nest goodness.
I just found dying from the uncompromising control system two screens away from the sofa I just re-spawned at very frustrating.
That's not actually true, like most things in the game though it is just optional functionality. You can definitely double jump, wall cling, wall jump, air dash, nail bounce, and several other things to manipulate your aerial movement. Some of these require finding new skills or charms, some (like the nail bounce) are baked into your kit from the second you start the game.
Yeah, it's weird. I love Metroidvanias and Souls games and I really disliked Hollow Knight (and I gave it way too many chances to change my mind). You really summed up my feelings for it with the thread title; it feels like work. I didn't even really have difficulty with the bosses or anything (as far as I got). I don't know what it is, if it's the sheer expansiveness or what, but it just felt like I was drudging my way through it.
Yeah. I had the air dash which did help loads. I suppose I'm just being impatient.
there were some fungus I had to nail bounce on but they were of the very limit of the jump. It was just to easy to fluff it.
I will restart it when the evenings get longer this winter. I don't hate the game.
i can just see the frustrations that may put some people off.
(The text entry box on resetera is killing my phone! Typing this is more frustrating than hollow knight!)
I am more then 20 hours into the game, doesn't feel like work to me. This game grabbed me much more then expected.
No problem with the map system, and I don't really understand the criticisms towards it. It seems pretty straightforward. I never got lost.
I was never into Souls like games, and there is a lot of Souls in this game, but I think the fact it is 2D makes it easier for me.
Pacing so far has been really good. New areas, upgrades, new moves, twists all come regularly and because the rewards are often I feel enough motivation to keep trying to beat some of the harder bosses.
No problem with the map system, and I don't really understand the criticisms towards it. It seems pretty straightforward. I never got lost.
I was never into Souls like games, and there is a lot of Souls in this game, but I think the fact it is 2D makes it easier for me.
Pacing so far has been really good. New areas, upgrades, new moves, twists all come regularly and because the rewards are often I feel enough motivation to keep trying to beat some of the harder bosses.
Ah, I know exactly the part you're talking about.
The interesting, and nice, thing about Hollow Knight is that there are a lot of areas you can access early (some of which are entire new zones) if you are able to skillfully use your abilities. But you will NEVER be limited to only these kinds of challenges (be it platforming or combat) in order to advance along the critical path. If you are finding a place where nail jumping is required, for example, that is either a completely optional area or a way to access a zone earlier than following the critical path. After the first couple zones, there are multiple directions you can go in to progress at all times.
This is part of why I don't really understand the difficulty complaint. If you're finding something too difficult, that's okay -- it's the game signifying to you that maybe you shouldn't go this way. But if you're determined and hone your skill, you often CAN overcome it and are rewarded for doing so. To me, that's good game design.
