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Hold Back to Block: How Elden Ring and Dark Souls Teach Fighting Games
- Thread starter Biosnake
- Start date
I never made that direct comparison myself but I do approach FROM games like I would a fighting game, even as far as using FGC terminology like in the video.
I can remember trying to teach people the concept of baiting and spacing to deal with AI hunters in Bloodborne for easy kills years ago.
Btw here's a cut of the Obama footage that was referenced in the vid, it's hilarious.
I can remember trying to teach people the concept of baiting and spacing to deal with AI hunters in Bloodborne for easy kills years ago.
Btw here's a cut of the Obama footage that was referenced in the vid, it's hilarious.
Do they? Because I'm pretty decent at Souls games and have never been more than trash at fighting games. lol
Yes, I understand what the video is trying to say.
Yes, I understand what the video is trying to say.
I can see that, but it doesn't really feel like it to me. Mordhau would be my example for medieval swordfighting that feels like playing a fighting game, surprisingly so.
Yup. The input buffer and mistyped dodge punishes are very unique in video games in general. Not many games are purposefully designed to put players in a blender when they screw up/spam their dodge. In that sense the way you can get punished in Souls is very similar to FGs.
Kind of, sure. I mean I get it, a lot of people who whine about fighting games being too complex are still willing to spend 150 hours on elden ring, even though the mindset behind the core fundamentals of both games have a lot of overlap.
But Souls games victory as the penultimate state; You beat, let's say, Rom the Spider and go through that sweet dopamine rush of having done something that's pretty difficult but that you will also likely never do again, or if you do, it'll be 1, maybe 2 more times. The only place to go in a fighting game if you want to get good is online, and into deeper and deeper waters with fish that are a lot larger than you are.
The payoff carrot and stick nature of fighting games is abrasive by nature. You're either with it or you're not.
But Souls games victory as the penultimate state; You beat, let's say, Rom the Spider and go through that sweet dopamine rush of having done something that's pretty difficult but that you will also likely never do again, or if you do, it'll be 1, maybe 2 more times. The only place to go in a fighting game if you want to get good is online, and into deeper and deeper waters with fish that are a lot larger than you are.
The payoff carrot and stick nature of fighting games is abrasive by nature. You're either with it or you're not.
OP
OP
If you have any sort of deliberacy to your button presses(opposite of button mashing) in fighting games you're better than most fighting game players.
I can't pull off combos. They've never been comfortable to me. Even the most basic ones, I can't do them. My attempts to learn fighting games fall apart when they ask me to do inputs I just can't do reliably.
Elden Ring especially, that's why I suck at it compared to other Souls hahaha
Now seriously it's kinda true, I used to play Fighting games a ton a few years back and while I don't play them anymore I always felt them and Hack and Slashes improved my reactions, not by much tho they are getting inconsistent as time goes on, but substantially enough
Now seriously it's kinda true, I used to play Fighting games a ton a few years back and while I don't play them anymore I always felt them and Hack and Slashes improved my reactions, not by much tho they are getting inconsistent as time goes on, but substantially enough
Can't really argue with any of that tbh. Good video.
(Also combos - and their necessity/importance - vary wildly from game to game. A combo in Street Fighter is much different from a combo in say, Marvel where you can simply press 3 buttons in sequence.)
You don't really need combos.
(Also combos - and their necessity/importance - vary wildly from game to game. A combo in Street Fighter is much different from a combo in say, Marvel where you can simply press 3 buttons in sequence.)
Just video game strats in general, really, but yeah I'd say Souls actually being designed to put up a challenge brings its resemblance close to the principles of competitive fighting games.
A lot of games allow for a lot of flexibility and breathing room in interacting with the challenges and that's perfectly fine, Souls being designed particularly to challenge players means it pushes it closer into more reaction and options-based decision making like fighting games.
EDIT: This is a much more nuanced way of explaining how I feel like my experience struggling with (and enjoying) the first Dark Souls in 2011 made me an overall better player of video games. Fighting games included. Sharpened my habits and on-the-fly thinking down much more than it ever was before.
I don't think of myself as a "good" gamer now, but I'm definitely a smarter one than I was before 2011.
A lot of games allow for a lot of flexibility and breathing room in interacting with the challenges and that's perfectly fine, Souls being designed particularly to challenge players means it pushes it closer into more reaction and options-based decision making like fighting games.
EDIT: This is a much more nuanced way of explaining how I feel like my experience struggling with (and enjoying) the first Dark Souls in 2011 made me an overall better player of video games. Fighting games included. Sharpened my habits and on-the-fly thinking down much more than it ever was before.
I don't think of myself as a "good" gamer now, but I'm definitely a smarter one than I was before 2011.
Even if i am not good at fighting games, the fighting game mentality is a huge help in understanding what to do about spacing and reading the opponent. Fighting for your life at every second is a new experience for newcomers, it takes time to get used to it all but even knowing how to fight in general is a huge help in understanding what to do, of course that takes patience.
I haven't watched the video yet but I'm a big fighting game person and had I been saying this since I first played ds1. I think that's part of why I like the souls games so much
I've recently been playing through the first Nioh, it's my first "Souls-like" game. And, I feel like 80% of my combat is just spacing around my enemy, waiting for an attack, especially against revenants. Just doing SF style shimmys waiting for them to attack so I can punish, and then break their stamina/ki with subsequent attacks.
Incidentally, if you want another action game that can teach you fighting game footsies, play the Ys series.
Incidentally, if you want another action game that can teach you fighting game footsies, play the Ys series.
This, for example I suck at combos in Marvel but in something like Tekken I feel really comfortable, not to mention in some games not knowing combos can be mitigated by finding other ways to punish your opponent
I have various combos that I input for things, like in a group of enemies, after killing one I sometimes go:
Jump -> rotate camera -> lock on -> R2 in quick succession so I do it all in one jump.
Not sure if this is part of what the video discusses, bookmarking it for later.
Jump -> rotate camera -> lock on -> R2 in quick succession so I do it all in one jump.
Not sure if this is part of what the video discusses, bookmarking it for later.
I've felt like this ever since the PvE of Dark Souls ingrained the concepts of PvP-style baiting, commitment and punishing into so many players, as well as recognizing builds and archetypes and the mechanics of different matchups.
The "Souls" games also have a ton of straight mechanical execution to them even in less-directs ways like camera control during encounters and understanding the breakpoints of your moveset and skills.
The "Souls" games also have a ton of straight mechanical execution to them even in less-directs ways like camera control during encounters and understanding the breakpoints of your moveset and skills.
I see a lot of beginner FG players just throwing out attacks non-stop. Not mashing, but more like repeatedly attempting to get a move or something. All the while, they're not paying any attention to what the opponent is doing. As a result, they get blown up over and over again because they're not blocking or evading or doing anything defensively-minded. Imagine playing a Souls game that way.
Then you miss the target because sometimes your character even locked on misses jump attacks hahaha, but now seriously kinda, the video focuses more on the positioning aspect but that is also a factor
I'm surprised he is slow to make this connection, and is only assigning the analog to Souls games.
All games where I fight enemies in hand-to-hand combat, while relying on timing and spacing, tap into my decades of fighting game experience.
All games where I fight enemies in hand-to-hand combat, while relying on timing and spacing, tap into my decades of fighting game experience.
Unless he has Delayed attacks I would find him somewhat easy, if he has delayed attacks like in Elden Ring you might as well dig my grave already lmao, have Mercy Rugal
Yeah lots of actions games can do that considering the similarities and general principles of spacing and timing. Waiting for the knight from Zelda to throw their chain ball so we can whiff punish. Difference is generally in single player games you have way more tools to avoid those types of interactions and push your advantage.
Genocide Cutter is so delayed it wraps back around and isn't delayed at all
OP
OP
If only I could read and bait humans the way I can an AI. Really though the only way I ever tend to win matches online in Street Fighter in particular is an attempt at spacing and then dragon punching the people who reliably jump in at me. Lord knows I can't combo or react in time to a hit confirm off anything else.
Thankfully Souls doesn't usually require anywhere near as much dexterity and timing in its button presses for punishes. I'll just think like "ok I can queue two r1's after that attack whiffs".
Thankfully Souls doesn't usually require anywhere near as much dexterity and timing in its button presses for punishes. I'll just think like "ok I can queue two r1's after that attack whiffs".
In Elden Ring you can't only think about the attack whiffing, you have to take into account the several counters bosses now have to shorten openings too, the complexity went off the charts for the better and worse I feel
Yeah, and those games are even harder than Souls in higher difficulties(although I feel ER is approaching those levels), you have to learn the mechanics perfectly and your entire moveset, playing hack and slashes all my life prepared me for other games
Given how thrash I am at fighting games relative to Souls, I can't really agree with this.
Okay, the video makes some decent points about stuff like reading opponents and managing space and timings and whatnot, and I guess that's true to an extent. But you could really make the same arguments for every action game. Or even most real time games in general.
But the controls, and the required muscle memory and mechanical skill, do not transfer over in the slightest. And Souls games also have waaaaaaaay more forgiving timings for every action, and are so much slower in general.
Okay, the video makes some decent points about stuff like reading opponents and managing space and timings and whatnot, and I guess that's true to an extent. But you could really make the same arguments for every action game. Or even most real time games in general.
But the controls, and the required muscle memory and mechanical skill, do not transfer over in the slightest. And Souls games also have waaaaaaaay more forgiving timings for every action, and are so much slower in general.
Elden Ring is grounded neutral footsie
And just like all grounded neutral footsie, nobody wants to deal with that shit and so we pick the characters (weapons) that bypasses it.
And just like all grounded neutral footsie, nobody wants to deal with that shit and so we pick the characters (weapons) that bypasses it.
Yes but unless fromsoft invented it, it doesn't exist before.
Yeah, a lot of this also applies to say, NBA 2K. It's a lot of aspects of just... game design.
fighting games have an advantage state. souls just has chipping away at a big guy's ankles until they fall down
Bone Fist + Caestus was my favorite DW combo in DS2 when I wasn't using a Blue Flame + Whip combo. I pretty much treated BoB and Iron Keep Bridge PvP like a fighting game when I wasn't playing Project M. Attack cancels, movement, parrys, guard breaks, invulnerable startup/moves and dodges - a lot of the basics are there. 860 hours in DS2 vanilla, and now I have 900 hours in Tekken 7.