Hillary Clinton Says We Must Be ‘Sensitive’ to Transphobia

[Deleted member 25606]

30 minutes ago you told me to shut the fuck up. You are the bad person. You.



Only she did. Even I have enough to tact to see how immediately horrible that comparison is, no matter what Brainchild may think.

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All she said was you don't define a trans women as trans same as you wouldn't define a woman with lupus as a lupus women. How about this, we don't define women who only wear the color green as "green women". The comparison was about qualifiers not comparing the qualifiers. But yes, keep explaining trans issues to trans people, your 2 for 2 on that, got more?

 

[KKBB]

All she said was you don't define a trans women as trans same as you wouldn't define a woman with lupus as a lupus women. How about this, we don't define women who only wear the color green as "green women". The comparison was about qualifiers not comparing the qualifiers. But yes, keep explaining trans issues to trans people, your 2 for 2 on that, got more?

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So you wouldn't define women who are white as "white women"??

 

[Kitsunelaine]

So you wouldn't define women who are white as "white women"??

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whoosh

 

[OrangeNova]

Delineation does nothing but distract from important things, or enable segregation/bigotry.

Are CIS-Women, Women? Yes. Are Trans-Women, Women? Yes.

So, in terms of terms(Outside of a hospital), Women are Women, and there's no need to delineate it any further.

 

[meowdi gras]

Well, this is turning out to be another fun thread on trans-related issues. Congrats, ERA.

 

[Steak]

Delineation does nothing but distract from important things, or enable segregation/bigotry.

Are CIS-Women, Women? Yes. Are Trans-Women, Women? Yes.

So, in terms of terms(Outside of a hospital), Women are Women, and there's no need to delineate it any further.

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cis isn't an acronym, and you don't need to hyphenate cis women,
cis is short for cisgender, which is an adjective like, tall or green or rich.
similarly trans is short for transgender

inside hospital women are still women

 

[Ramsay]

"Human rights are women's rights, and women's rights are human rights...unless you're a trans woman, then you get no rights" - Hillary Clinton, apparently.

 

[Deleted member 7130]

To the folks who have already turned out to not read the article but are still telling people to read the article because her statements were clearly taken out of context, let's see a more specific example in the form of a fully-formed and self-contained thought:

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Damn, Hillary sounds like a terf...

And people still Stan for her

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"It was her turn!"
"Yass queen! I'm with her!"

 

[Netherscourge]

Is this really about transphobia or is it more of a "territory" dispute?

Reading up on the topic, it sounds like traditional feminists are not anti-trans, but rather, they think trans women should be rallying around their own, independent designation.

I'm neither a woman nor a trans person, so I'm just trying to figure out what each side is defending and fighting for.

-Feminists are fighting for equality with men in a male-dominated society.

-Trans women are fighting for equality with both men AND women, as they identify as women. Their battle is on multiple fronts as they are fighting against men, TERFS and general conservatism and bigotry.

Hillary's comments on their own, without the article writer's slants, come off as pretty objective to me. She's talking about what she's seeing and what people are telling her, but I don't get the sense that she shares their opinions. The one line where she admits she tries to understand where the boomers are coming from so she can educate them and/or try to "ease" them into the modern era, so to speak. Yea, it's bad messaging and sounds like a concession to transphobes, but I don't see it as she's defending their right to be transphobic. She's just assessing the situation for the interviewer. At least that how it comes off to me. I'm not getting triggered in the same sense other people here are. It doesn't sound malicious or willfully ignorant to me.

But it gets back to this whole territory thing that I can't figure out.

I remember reading a Era topic a while back about a woman who was with a trans male partner and she was offended that people were treating them as a typical couple instead of accentuating them as a lesbian woman dating a trans male partner. (I think that was the situation anyway. I may be confusing the circumstances). Anyway, I was scratching my head on that because I couldn't figure out if the goal there was to fit in and be accepted for what you identify as, or if the goal was to be accepted as-is and to not "trade-in" who you were, but still have license to incorporate yourself to a specific classification. It seems contradictory.

That's probably good for another thread though. Lots of interesting topics floating around on the subject.

 

[Kitsunelaine]

Is this really about transphobia or is it more of a "territory" dispute?

Reading up on the topic, it sounds like traditional feminists are not anti-trans, but rather, they think trans women should be rallying around their own, independent designation.

I'm neither a woman nor a trans person, so I'm just trying to figure out what each side is defending and fighting for.

-Feminists are fighting for equality with men in a male-dominated society.

-Trans women are fighting for equality with both men AND women, as they identify as women. Their battle is on multiple fronts as they are fighting against men, TERFS and general conservatism and bigotry.

Hillary's comments on their own, without the article writer's slants, come off as pretty objective to me. She's talking about what she's seeing and what people are telling her, but I don't get the sense that she shares their opinions. The one line where she admits she tries to understand where the boomers are coming from so she can educate them and/or try to "ease" them into the modern era, so to speak. Yea, it's bad messaging and sounds like a concession to transphobes, but I don't see it as she's defending their right to be transphobic. She's just assessing the situation for the interviewer. At least that how it comes off to me. I'm not getting triggered in the same sense other people here are. It doesn't sound malicious or willfully ignorant to me.

But it gets back to this whole territory thing that I can't figure out.

I remember reading a Era topic a while back about a woman who was with a trans male partner and she was offended that people were treating them as a typical couple instead of accentuating them as a lesbian woman dating a trans male partner. (I think that was the situation anyway. I may be confusing the circumstances). Anyway, I was scratching my head on that because I couldn't figure out if the goal there was to fit in and be accepted for what you identify as, or if the goal was to be accepted as-is and to not "trade-in" who you were, but still have license to incorporate yourself to a specific classification. It seems contradictory.

That's probably good for another thread though. Lots of interesting topics floating around on the subject.

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sounds like you're a TERF who's JAQing off

achnowledging the debate as a legitimate one only really means one thing as far as how your post can be taken

 

[Deleted member 203]

30 minutes ago you told me to shut the fuck up. You are the bad person. You.

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Maybe because you doubled, tripled, quadrupled down on being offensive despite EVERYONE TELLING YOU YOU WERE BEING OFFENSIVE

shut the fuck up. I'm trans and you insulted all of us, despite being told numerous times you were being offensive, and you just keep doubling down. So eat shit and don't talk to me again.

 

[OrangeNova]

Cis isn't an acronym, and you don't need to hyphenate cis women,
cis is short for cisgender, which is an adjective like, tall or green or rich.
similarly trans is short for transgender

inside hospital women are still women

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I feel you missed what I was saying, and I'm sorry if it wasn't clear.

Delineation is not important for anything apart from increasing segregation/bigotry, Women are Women.

In a Hosptial it can be important to delineate, but that's on your medical record, so they're still a Woman to everyone, but with a note on your medical records, like everyone else.

(also I see a lot of people hyphenate it and capitalize it, so thanks for the heads up going forward)

 

[Speely]

Election inTERFerence.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

A British Shorthair and a Maine Coon are both cats, but they're not the same type of cat.

Likewise cis women and trans women are both women, and they're both as much a woman as one another, but there's obviously a delineation.

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Shut the fuck up.

30 minutes ago you told me to shut the fuck up. You are the bad person. You.

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SHUT THE FUCK UP

 

[Alternade]

I kinda get what shes trying to say. That we need to make allowances for people who are unfamiliar with transgendered and non-binary people to learn the culture and adapt, which is mostly true. She just really sounds like a super out of touch boomer because she is.

 

[Netherscourge]

sounds like you're a TERF who's JAQing off

achnowledging the debate as a legitimate one only really means one thing as far as how your post can be taken

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I'm not a TERF and I don't even know what else you're insinuating.

And what debate? I'm not even debating anything. I don't think Hillary was debating anything either.

I'm making an observation on things and trying to understand various viewpoints.

You're taking it as if I'm leaning in favor of TERFS? You're wrong.

I'm all about inclusion personally. I don't see the point in people being divided over classifications. That's the whole point of my post. It's the division that's preventing the progression of the movement as a whole. What I can't understand is why people are trying to exclude others (or even themselves) from fighting the same fight, just from a different angle.

 

[Kitsunelaine]

I'm making an observation on things and trying to understand various viewpoints.

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I'm all about inclusion personally. I don't see the point in people being divided over classifications. That's the whole point of my post. It's the division that's preventing the progression of the movement as a whole.

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1.) You don't understand the trans movement.
2.) You know what's best for the trans movement.

Pick one. There's only one valid answer.

 

[alexiswrite]

Is this really about transphobia or is it more of a "territory" dispute?

Reading up on the topic, it sounds like traditional feminists are not anti-trans, but rather, they think trans women should be rallying around their own, independent designation.

I'm neither a woman nor a trans person, so I'm just trying to figure out what each side is defending and fighting for.

-Feminists are fighting for equality with men in a male-dominated society.

-Trans women are fighting for equality with both men AND women, as they identify as women. Their battle is on multiple fronts as they are fighting against men, TERFS and general conservatism and bigotry.

Hillary's comments on their own, without the article writer's slants, come off as pretty objective to me. She's talking about what she's seeing and what people are telling her, but I don't get the sense that she shares their opinions. The one line where she admits she tries to understand where the boomers are coming from so she can educate them and/or try to "ease" them into the modern era, so to speak. Yea, it's bad messaging and sounds like a concession to transphobes, but I don't see it as she's defending their right to be transphobic. She's just assessing the situation for the interviewer. At least that how it comes off to me. I'm not getting triggered in the same sense other people here are. It doesn't sound malicious or willfully ignorant to me.

But it gets back to this whole territory thing that I can't figure out.

I remember reading a Era topic a while back about a woman who was with a trans male partner and she was offended that people were treating them as a typical couple instead of accentuating them as a lesbian woman dating a trans male partner. (I think that was the situation anyway. I may be confusing the circumstances). Anyway, I was scratching my head on that because I couldn't figure out if the goal there was to fit in and be accepted for what you identify as, or if the goal was to be accepted as-is and to not "trade-in" who you were, but still have license to incorporate yourself to a specific classification. It seems contradictory.

That's probably good for another thread though. Lots of interesting topics floating around on the subject.

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"Race relations are complicated you know. I've actually looked at it and I know a lot of people who talk about how Black people commit more crimes than white people, and they do less well in schools and I know a lot of white people who've actually been mugged by black people. Wait, are you calling me racist? These are just objective facts. I'm just representing things people have told me!"

We would never look at the above without calling it out as racist shit. And that's exactly what she's doing here. Part of the being a public figure who's going to speak on an issue is being educated enough on that issue to not just blindly repeat bigoted arguments without challenging it.

 

[Goat Mimicry]

We don't need to be sensitive towards transphobes any more than we need to be sensitive towards homophobes and racists.

"There are women who'd say [to a trans woman], 'You know what, you've never had the kind of life experiences that I've had, so I respect who you are, but don't tell me you're the same as me,'" Hillary said. "I hear that conversation all the time."

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Those women are full of shit and aren't actually respectful at all. What unique life experiences could they possibly have that would make it okay to say something like that?

You know it's somewhat ironic that she's a bit like James Comey.

They're not the heroes they like to believe they are, and frankly, are better off fading away quietly from the public consciousness. But of course their egos won't let them.

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This is a great comparison.

 

[Deleted member 203]

Mods probably haven't seen the reports yet lol

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they don't care. you can say transphobic shit here as long as it's sufficiently veiled, turns out.

 

[Mona]

JAQing off

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first time seeing this lol

 

[Deleted member 20630]

they don't care. you can say transphobic shit here as long as it's sufficiently veiled, turns out.

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No joke. A message I received on a report from this thread: "Unfortunately, your recent report has been rejected: Post in thread 'Hillary Clinton Says We Must Be 'Sensitive' to Transphobia' - Having reviewed this user's posts we have decided to not moderate them. Thank you for your report."

Maybe it's not about the person saying TERF stuff, but someone else. Still, I'm seeing people warned and banned in this thread, but not the person tripling down on the transphobic things they've said.

 

[Netherscourge]

1.) You don't understand the trans movement.
2.) You know what's best for the trans movement.

Pick one. There's only one valid answer.

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3.) Why not drop the hostility and help me/others figure it out?

-Do you think Hillary's comments are in support of transphobia and bigotry? Do you believe she wants to dismantle the trans movement and promote 100% TERFism? Do you think she wants to isolate the trans movement from feminism? Do you believe Hillary refuses to accept trans women AS women herself?

-If not, then what do you think she's on about? Is she just objectively assessing things? Is she just really bad at messaging? Is she going overboard trying to compromise with conservatives/bigots, aka the enemy? Is she trying to promote education and acceptance among that faction? SHOULD she even try to promote education and acceptance with them? Maybe that's the crux - they shouldn't be given a bridge at all? Problem is - they're a major voting block. At least until they go extinct. Those boomers have an unusually strong mortality rate. They also don't feel ashamed of anything; hell, most of them double-down on that shit when they are confronted. So how do you attack the problem with conservatives and bigots, who can still have a major effect on the vote and legislation? How do you inject humanity into their bodies?

EDIT - I see you got modded. Sorry. I hope you can read this. I do want to know your opinions and your thoughts on this stuff, though. (I don't report people, BTW. Wasn't me. Passionate discussion is good, minus hostility and insults. We can continue later I guess. Peace.)

 

[Deleted member 7130]

The bans and warnings falling on one particular side is uhh... interesting

 

[Deleted member 4346]

What's happening here? Trans posters are being banned or warned and people defending the transphobic rhetoric in this interview are not? That's... yikes.

 

[Deleted member 20630]

What's happening here? Trans posters are being banned or warned and people defending the transphobic rhetoric in this interview are not? That's... yikes.

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Had to double check to make sure the people saying transphobic things aren't banned yet, and nope! KKBB is still around, for example. So we have multiple trans people banned for being hostile towards someone being willfully ignorant and hurtful. So the lesson is you can be transphobic as long as you keep it relatively civil.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

Took me 2 years to get a warning in ERA lol

The most important person in my life is trans so excuse me for getting a little mad when people say worthless transphobic bullshit.

 

[dean_rcg]

I guess not sensitive enough...

 

[Deleted member 1635]

The bans and warnings falling on one particular side is uhh... interesting

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Maybe don't scream at people to shut the fuck up on a discussion forum? It shouldn't be hard to see where the bans are coming from.

 

[Mona]

Took me 2 years to get a warning in ERA lol

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you're one of us now

 

[kambaybolongo]

The bans and warnings falling on one particular side is uhh... interesting

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Is it though? "muh decorum" and whatnot

 

[Driggonny]

Ha, yeah, typical

 

[Ketkat]

Maybe don't scream at people to shut the fuck up on a discussion forum? It shouldn't be hard to see where the bans are coming from.

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If someone is saying bigoted things towards the very people in this thread, then they're already doing harm to us and insulting the trans people here. This idea that somehow hiding it behind niceties is somehow better than the people who are upset with that comment responding directly to them is kind of ridiculous.

 

[Deleted member 22490]

Had to double check to make sure the people saying transphobic things aren't banned yet, and nope! KKBB is still around, for example. So we have multiple trans people banned for being hostile towards someone being willfully ignorant and hurtful. So the lesson is you can be transphobic as long as you keep it relatively civil.

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Era has the decorum disease. People can question your identity in a pleasant manner but if you tell them to shut the fuck up, you get in trouble. As if people should be calm about your existence.

 

[Deleted member 2761]

What the hell? You cannot honestly expect trans people to listen to literal TERF talking points to stay calm and civil when it goes unmoderated. I've had something similar happen to me before and honestly it's ridiculous to punish the victims for reacting in an angry way when the aggressors are "polite" about denying your humanity.

 

[Indy in the Fridge]

 

[Deleted member 50454]

Makes me feel better about my previous infractions now knowing where the sympathies of some mods lie.

 

[Deleted member 1635]

If someone is saying bigoted things towards the very people in this thread, then they're already doing harm to us and insulting the trans people here. This idea that somehow hiding it behind niceties is somehow better than the people who are upset with that comment responding directly to them is kind of ridiculous.

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I think we're going to disagree on what constitutes bigotry. You're basically saying that unless people fall in line and do as you say, they are bigoted and somehow causing you actual harm.

Makes me feel better about my previous infractions now knowing where the sympathies of some mods lie.

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For what it's worth, most of those mods are probably not mods anymore depending on how far back we're talking.

 

[Daniel Westlake]

If someone is saying bigoted things towards the very people in this thread, then they're already doing harm to us and insulting the trans people here. This idea that somehow hiding it behind niceties is somehow better than the people who are upset with that comment responding directly to them is kind of ridiculous.

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Disingenuous civility rules the day

 

[fontguy]

.

 

[Fireblend]

What's happening here? Trans posters are being banned or warned and people defending the transphobic rhetoric in this interview are not? That's... yikes.

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"Era mods say We Must Be 'Sensitive' to Transphobia"

 

[*Splinter]

Fuck decorum, and fuck whoever banned people for being upset about transphobic talking points.

 

[kambaybolongo]

"Era mods say We Must Be 'Sensitive' to Transphobia"

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[Ketkat]

I think we're going to disagree on what constitutes bigotry. You're basically saying that unless people fall in line and do as you say, they are bigoted and somehow causing you actual harm.

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Someone comparing my identity and who I am to a species of cat is insulting, and I'm not the only trans person who felt that way as that person received a strong reaction for that very reason.

 

[Robin]

I think we're going to disagree on what constitutes bigotry. You're basically saying that unless people fall in line and do as you say, they are bigoted and somehow causing you actual harm.



For what it's worth, most of those mods are probably not mods anymore depending on how far back we're talking.

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"I'm not touching you! I'm not touching you!"

Honestly, fuck off.

 

[rras1994]

This forums policy has always been if you see a post that you think breaks the rules, you report it, you don't personally attack and try to mod yourself. They do this across multiple topics and let's be honest, if they didn't it would be hard to moderate this forum. If you have any issue with a mods decision , you can message one and they will try to help you, and also just because it doesn't result in action , doesn't mean a report won't be kept a note and used as evidence of a pattern of behaviour.

 

[bulbasort]

I think we're going to disagree on what constitutes bigotry. You're basically saying that unless people fall in line and do as you say, they are bigoted and somehow causing you actual harm.

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If you are not listening to trans people on trans topics, then yes you are probably being bigoted and causing harm.

 

[turmoil7]

"Era mods say We Must Be 'Sensitive' to Transphobia"

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.

 

[Deleted member 1635]

"I'm not touching you! I'm not touching you!"

Honestly, fuck off.

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I'm just gonna ignore anyone that can't respond with more than angry insults.

If you are not listening to trans people on trans topics, then yes you are probably being bigoted and causing harm.

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I'm not going to listen to anyone screaming "shut the fuck up." Come on.

 

[Deleted member 5086]

This thread is temporarily locked while we evaluate it.

 

[Deleted member 5086]

We have reviewed, discussed, and adjusted the moderation actions taken in this thread.

This is a sensitive subject, and as such, we ask that you tackle it with respect, compassion and empathy. Please take the time to listen to members of the community who have a personal perspective on the issue. Do not speak over them and ignore their concerns.

As always, we also ask that you avoid hostility towards other users. Hostility only makes moderating these threads that much harder for staff. Instead, we ask that you make use of the report system. If you think someone is trolling and not sincerely trying to discuss or learn, please report them instead of escalating in the thread. All reports are reviewed and handled by a diverse staff with several trans members of the team who have provided input and perspective. If you see posts that you believe violate our terms of service for transphobia, we urge you to report them for the staff to review. If you have greater concerns about how a thread was moderated, you may also reach out to Mod Captains.

Thank you for your patience while we reviewed the thread. It is now open for discussion.