Hinamizawa isn't really what Satoko cares about. After Rika brings back the old nipah act for her friends during the club reunion Satoko concludes that Rika can only be Rika in Hinamizawa so staying there is a necessary step for them to be together.
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Yeah, watch the interview posted a few days ago. Specifically the Return to Hinamizawa part (20)
The last two episodes Eua started using the board/pieces terms a lot and last episode also referenced how she hated boredom the most. It seems like they really might be building up towards a
Lambdadelta ending now.
Although, really without further context, it could just be used in its original Higurashi meaning, referencing how
Satoko apparently now is completely amoral, only being able to feel happiness from manipulating others towards tragedies and to receive pity, like how Rika said she'd be a truly a witch if she had left Satoko to die and escaped by herself in Minagoroshi.
Although if she got to this point, I don't see how they'd end the show with her as a human in a normal life anyway.
Although if she got to this point, I don't see how they'd end the show with her as a human in a normal life anyway.
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It's been obvious for a while now if anything. Especially with how Satoko was acting with Rena and her using youknowwho's favorite catchphrase.
If we really do get a Lambdadelta ending then that Rika breaking, and becoming Bern is next.
As far as Bern goes, I thought Nekodamashi was building to that. The issue is that with Gou's/Sotsu's format all of that has been shelved for months. Neko has Rika questioning what was the point of her miraculous victory, and being unable to accept a "perfect world" and going towards the truth since she was just unnerved by it, which lines up with Bern disregarding soft illusions while going after a cruel truth.
It also introduced the idea of Rika disliking Hinamizawa and wanting to move away from her past due to trauma from looping, resembling in a ligther way how Bern doesn't even like even talking about her origins due to the pain she suffered there. Although at least this part is relevant to Rika's character throughout all of Gou/Sotsu.
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I love the visuals of the new Gou manga chapter,
showing Rika's memories of Matsuribayashi cracking while watching Akasaka's rampage. There's also her going "no! no! no! no!" trying to stop herself from hearing Akasaka repeating his line from Matsuri. It really sells how broken Rika was by that situation, especially since this chapter actually had build up unlike in the anime, where they were going for surprise factor.
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I honestly kinda wish they let the Cool Teppei stuff take a little longer to settle in. At first I really liked the sudden change of heart because other characters had experienced it but it seems like it would've made more sense for him to slowly reach this state as a result of repeated loops. I still wonder if this is part of a catch where by the end, even more characters will be cognizant of the looping, but for now it's still bizarrely entertaining to watch him be so easily strung along for the ride
Well she did end up dragging everyone through a ton of loops in her repeated failures to stop Rika from going to St. Lucia and then again trying to memorize the concentration game. It's probably for the best we didn't spend too much time with abuser Teppei.
I do like how in becoming a villain Satoko ended up reforming all of the actual villains and made the world a better place for everyone but herself and Rika.
The world is already better for her though. This episode pretty much confirmed what I was speculating about before when we got the first episode of Wataakashi - Satoko is apparently enjoying the game itself. Eua directly spells it out at the end of the episode while talking about how she isn't even human anymore. At this point, Satoko feels happiness from causing tragedies. All those smirks and laughs aren't just random villain imagery, she's genuinely enjoying all this.
I think at this point the only way internal conflict within Satoko would make sense is if she starts failing to synchronize/possess herself. Back in the original VN, in Minagoroshi, it was stated Rika's soul was changing and if it actually became inhuman, she wouldn't be able to loop anymore. Although obviously Satoko can't be stopped from looping, otherwise the plot would break, maybe we'll get a situation where Satoko starts failing to completely overwrite the Satokos from individual fragments, and this causes some conflict within her, since she then realizes she basically isn't "Satoko" anymore.
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Honestly, it was nice seeing Ritsuko/Rina have her moment in the spotlight before the events of Sotsu's first arc came down on her
I wouldn't really consider becoming an inhuman monster a better outcome for Satoko. Even if she's getting some short term thrills the old Faustian bargain usually doesn't end well for whoever is in the role of Faust.
I don't disagree with you. It's absolutely not healthy, but she is enjoying this at least for now.
I'm surprised people are waffling on the ending speculation; to me it's been extremely obvious that this is a witch origin story and has been for a good while. I'd be far more shocked if they pulled a switcheroo and made it something else at this point, although I'd welcome it as I really enjoyed Higurashi's "yeah she's stuck in a loop, idk" vibe when it came to the meta stuff, vs Umineko's elaborate and detailed use of witches/games/pieces/rules/etc. It pulled me out too much; I really prefer when a show leaves some mystery in the worldbuilding, and why/how Rika's looping was never as interesting to me as how she reacted to it.
On another meta (but as in real life, not just out of loop) level, I'm still super uncomfortable with them going with Satoko faking child abuse. Yes, I understand she's a sociopath at this point and has done way worse shit, but using this as a way to reinforce that is...I don't know, crossing a line or rubbing me the wrong way or whatever. Pro wrestling fans would call this "drawing the wrong kind of heat" as it's getting me to hate Satoko's writing rather than Satoko the character. It just isn't doing it for me, I don't know. I kind of just want it to be done so we can move on.
On another meta (but as in real life, not just out of loop) level, I'm still super uncomfortable with them going with Satoko faking child abuse. Yes, I understand she's a sociopath at this point and has done way worse shit, but using this as a way to reinforce that is...I don't know, crossing a line or rubbing me the wrong way or whatever. Pro wrestling fans would call this "drawing the wrong kind of heat" as it's getting me to hate Satoko's writing rather than Satoko the character. It just isn't doing it for me, I don't know. I kind of just want it to be done so we can move on.
It may be the obvious but it'd also be super unsatisfying.
People are expecting Rika and Satoko to cast off their human forms and become witches but the witch personas in Higurashi are things that are meant to be rejected. Becoming Bernkastel is Rika's bad ending. She's the version of Rika that gives up and learns nothing from this experience other than miracles are fleeting fantasies. It'd basically mean this show had nothing to say and exists purely to shit all over the themes of the original. Fuck miracles. Fuck hope. Fuck forgiveness. Fuck trusting your friends. Umineko now available on Nintendo Switch!
I like Umineko but I really hate all the witch/piece/game board nonsense being retroactively applied to Higurashi's reality.
I like Umineko but I really hate all the witch/piece/game board nonsense being retroactively applied to Higurashi's reality.
I'd guess we'll also end up with versions of Rika and Satoko left with
no looping memories, rather than just the "I'll act like it was all a dream and everything will be fine" answer for Saikoroshi.
We just had Hanyuu in Sotsu saying Rika carry the scars from her experience forever, and the whole conflict here started because Rika was deeply traumatized by her loops, but tried to put on a mask and act like everything was normal (hiding her resentment towards Hinamizawa until it led to crushing her bond with Satoko in St.Lucia).
So, a more literal split, but this time in worlds that aren't fated to tragedy could be the actual answer. I guess it could carry the tragic message that looper Rika never had the chance of going towards an actual good ending as a human, but it all depends on how they're portrayed by the end. The Higurashi epilogues generally portrayed Bernkastel in a much lighter tone than Umineko did.
(recently translated additional epilogue added to the console releases)
We just had Hanyuu in Sotsu saying Rika carry the scars from her experience forever, and the whole conflict here started because Rika was deeply traumatized by her loops, but tried to put on a mask and act like everything was normal (hiding her resentment towards Hinamizawa until it led to crushing her bond with Satoko in St.Lucia).
So, a more literal split, but this time in worlds that aren't fated to tragedy could be the actual answer. I guess it could carry the tragic message that looper Rika never had the chance of going towards an actual good ending as a human, but it all depends on how they're portrayed by the end. The Higurashi epilogues generally portrayed Bernkastel in a much lighter tone than Umineko did.
(recently translated additional epilogue added to the console releases)
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That would be an unfortunate message to convey. Ideally I'd like to see an ending where Rika learns that a miracle is not something that is handed to you that you can take for granted, it's something you have to work to maintain. She couldn't get her good ending not because it was out of reach but because she took nothing but trauma away from her previous experience and fell back into the habit of ignoring her friends' pain. We see glimpses of her learning that lesson in the repeated arcs when she actually tries to be proactive and guide Keiichi toward appropriate solutions (things Keiichi had already proven capable of learning on his own even without magic looping powers I might add) but of course those efforts fail because Rika fails to recognize her original sin.
It's not like "trauma" is something that she chose to take away, it was just the consequence of her experiences. It doesn't help that Hanyuu left afterwards. She tried to live a normal life and hide her feelings, but in the end she was entirely driven by the pain she felt in Hinamizawa and became blind to Satoko's own struggles later on when she found her freedom. And Satoko was the closest person left to her. It just shows how messed up she actually was after it all.
The show highlights how the loops left a negative influence on Rika, even Hanyuu remarks on how those scars will never vanish. They're being treated as something traumatic that damaged her. Now we have Satoko who is using her power willingly going to lower depths than Rika ever did. Part of the issue is that Rika isn't the main character either. A story about looping breaking people and being an inherently negative influence, with the final answer being that the loopers don't belong in the human world could be applied to both Rika and Satoko. It's not like we're talking about a fantasy solution to a real world problem, it's a fantasy problem from the start.
The show highlights how the loops left a negative influence on Rika, even Hanyuu remarks on how those scars will never vanish. They're being treated as something traumatic that damaged her. Now we have Satoko who is using her power willingly going to lower depths than Rika ever did. Part of the issue is that Rika isn't the main character either. A story about looping breaking people and being an inherently negative influence, with the final answer being that the loopers don't belong in the human world could be applied to both Rika and Satoko. It's not like we're talking about a fantasy solution to a real world problem, it's a fantasy problem from the start.
Anything else but Rika getting a happy ending would be a huge betrayal of Higurashi's themes and completely make the story pointless. "She was never destined for happiness and fighting fate is pointless", what a bad message.
Also Rei already addressed the whole looping/not looping thing, "Rika hates Hinamizawa" is nonsense that got written into Gou and never happens in the original, Matsuri shows she's fine living in Hinamizawa, Rei shows she has no trauma related to it, she's having so much fun she gets Isekai, the whole thing is purely an addition from Gou, a self inflected plot point brought to justify this sequel.
Also St. Lucia Rika is just an overexcited teenager, there are like one millions of these.
Also Rei already addressed the whole looping/not looping thing, "Rika hates Hinamizawa" is nonsense that got written into Gou and never happens in the original, Matsuri shows she's fine living in Hinamizawa, Rei shows she has no trauma related to it, she's having so much fun she gets Isekai, the whole thing is purely an addition from Gou, a self inflected plot point brought to justify this sequel.
Also St. Lucia Rika is just an overexcited teenager, there are like one millions of these.
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Yeah, it's probably safe to say Rei is not canon to Gou.
I don't mean to diminish Rika's trauma. What I find frustrating about her portrayal in Gou is that she did not actually seem to learn anything from the experience beyond what to do in given situations. Rika's fantasy trauma doesn't excuse her behavior any more than Satoko's very real trauma does.
I do agree that any happy ending is probably going to have to involve some sort of memory wipe. In her own special way Satoko has already created a better ending state than the original if only she can accept it, so that's a good setup there. You have to tread lightly with that sort of ending though or else it feels like a cheat. Rika and Satoko will still have to deal with their respective shit as loopers in order to earn that ending.
I do agree that any happy ending is probably going to have to involve some sort of memory wipe. In her own special way Satoko has already created a better ending state than the original if only she can accept it, so that's a good setup there. You have to tread lightly with that sort of ending though or else it feels like a cheat. Rika and Satoko will still have to deal with their respective shit as loopers in order to earn that ending.
Newest episode has
Eua outright saying Satoko isn't Satoko anymore, although she denies it and claims she's herself since she still has her goal of being together with Rika. But I guess we'll get Satoko herself denying her own identity soon.
Well, Gou Rika hating Hinamizawa is clearly based on Bernkastel hating her past, alongside the concept of her journey leaving her permanently scarred. So, it's not exactly a new idea, just new to Higurashi. And, yes, it crashes badly with Saikoroshi, which pushed the idea that she could just think about it all as a "dream" and live completely free from her past, but that's clearly not the case here.
I think they will portray a human/witch split, where this time the human side actually has no memories of the loops, as a happy ending.
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The problem with "Satoko made a better word" is that it literally involved ruining hundred of people lives so two assholes could become better people. I really can't look at an ending like that and think it's better than Matsuri when it's built on the deaths of countless people for one girl's amusement.
I have to imagine they will end up showing a lot of Neko from Satoko's POV and wouldn't be shocked if the gun scene doesn't happen until midway through episode 15. There's some potential to be had in spending some time on how Satoko takes to the final loop in the run up to her being found out. She'll have finally caught Rika but between her (supposedly) no longer being able to feel human pleasure, the realization that she actually kind of hates Rika now, and the fact that Rika's love will essentially be false it will be a hollow victory.
Lmao, I do find it really funny everytime they show the exact same events as Gou but then cut to Satoko giving the red eyes just to remind you who's in charge here
If by new footage you mean scenes not from Gou then yes. If you're asking if the timeline has advanced past Gou 17 then no.
Nope. At the rate things are going that may not happen until right near the end.
You'd probably at least want to start from the beginning of the next arc. Even if the rest of Sotsu has failed to justify itself by keeping Satoko's character arc a straight line, anything that would affect whether she pulls the trigger or not will probably come from the Neko answer arc.
Eh I feel that Satoko's actions and her conversations with Rika and Eua in new scenes have been pretty crucial in setting up Satoko's motivations and current state and where she is going. I can see a lot of people skipping these episodes starting to watch again only to go
I feel like her actions and reactions (or lack of) in the current arc are really telling of just how inhuman she is becoming
"Damn Satoko becoming a witch was super rushed and not explained well!"
I feel like her actions and reactions (or lack of) in the current arc are really telling of just how inhuman she is becoming
My problem is they really haven't shown much of a change from the start of the season. We haven't really seen any signs of humanity left in her since Satokowashi-hen. If she had shown signs of considering her actions before making the wrong decisions in the previous two arcs the whole
"she's become a witch" declaration
You can probably watch it by skipping around, or just watch some Satoko/Eua's scenes. Everything else is either filler or self explanatory, also it's not like Satoko's manipulations are that good anyway. Before this people thought she was actually manipulating the culprits of the various arcs, but she literally just injected the first two culprits and waited for everything to go south.
They've made some mistakes with her progression, but I think you're missing what these recent episodes are doing.
Initially, it was set up like she was uncaring for everything because it was a "dream" and she was fully focused on her goal. But then she was seemingly having fun just experimenting with Mion's life. And now Eua outright said she's having fun with it all and is becoming something that can only feel happiness from this kind of existence, not a human life anymore. It's basically dramatic irony.
This all started because Satoko didn't want to change at all, and didn't want to let Rika change from the Rika she knew, even rejecting a greeting like "Gokigenyo", but now she has changed so much Eua outright told her she isn't Satoko anymore, although she's in denial. What is obviously being set up for her arc now is her actually facing herself and acknowledging that she isn't really Satoko, which probably will lead to the even more cruel Neko worlds.
This all started because Satoko didn't want to change at all, and didn't want to let Rika change from the Rika she knew, even rejecting a greeting like "Gokigenyo", but now she has changed so much Eua outright told her she isn't Satoko anymore, although she's in denial. What is obviously being set up for her arc now is her actually facing herself and acknowledging that she isn't really Satoko, which probably will lead to the even more cruel Neko worlds.
That said, I think they really messed up the beginning of her progression as a looper. All those flashy suicides in Gou and now she talks about finding a quick way to die, using a gun? It really feels like they wanted flashy psychotic looper Satoko from point zero even though it clashed with the story outline. Due to the lack of monologues they also really failed to push the idea that she had changed in core ways after the 100 years, even though that was clearly the intention when you look at some of the specific moments, like the first red eyes scene.
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I don't remember Eua saying Satoko was having fun with what she was doing. The Funimation translation was that she only feels pleasure when she is "thrusting herself in despair and being lavished with pity." Are you talking about a different scene, was there a translation error, or are you and I just reading that differently? I took it to mean she's getting off on the attention she's receiving by making herself a victim, not so much the chaos she's causing. It's why she came to the rather gross conclusion that being abused wasn't all that bad if it earned her Rika's pity. She didn't get it when she wanted it in St. Lucia and it has festered into this but everything she does is still rooted in those same negative emotions from back then that continue to consume her.
I imagine that rather than acknowledge what she's become she'll become more desperate to deny it throughout the Neko worlds, trying to convince herself she can still be happy if only she meets her goal. She steps up the cruelty to accelerate the process and get to the end that much quicker. I don't think she'll be able to face herself until that final world when victory leaves her with nothing.
I imagine that rather than acknowledge what she's become she'll become more desperate to deny it throughout the Neko worlds, trying to convince herself she can still be happy if only she meets her goal. She steps up the cruelty to accelerate the process and get to the end that much quicker. I don't think she'll be able to face herself until that final world when victory leaves her with nothing.
I'm going from that same scene, although seeing the "despair" as more the general tragedies she's causing rather than specifically her apparent suffering. "Now she moves the pieces around the board and fiddles with the heart of others in blind pursuit of that pleasure...". It's the fact that she obtains pleasure from all this that makes her a witch according to Eua. Note that in this episode itself before going on to inject Oishi, she has a quick flashback to her previous conversation with Eua, where she denies having changed and Eua just laughs, and injecting Oishi has nothing to do with the "pity" part of that talk.
Even following your interpretation, note that Satoko didn't want Rika's pity back in St.Lucia and outright rejected Rika's attempts to approach her there because she saw it only as pity. So, what she's doing isn't an extension of that, but rather the opposite, which goes along with her being in denial about having changed.
Either way, Eua clearly talks about Satoko obtaining pleasure from what she's doing, so I can't see why Neko would be a rush to get to her final goal. I think it's much more likely to be her actually acknowledging her new nature and embracing it - look back at Keiichi wielding Satoshi's bat during the Angel Mort massacre for example. That detail was just pointlessly cruel and doesn't even play a role in breaking Rika. Note also how during the tragedy right before Neko, which we now know for sure was caused by Satoko, she's wearing a completely new outfit, which could go alongside her acknowledging she isn't Satoko anymore (using the festival as an excuse to dress up without raising Rika's suspicions). Note also that she smiles when her identity is exposed at the end of Nekodamashi which lines up with her wanting the game to continue rather than being satisfified by an ending at that point.
Of course, I guess my interpretation could be wrong, but I think everything lines up too well, and either way, if I'm right we'll get answers pointing to it next episode since everything has to happen before Neko.
Even following your interpretation, note that Satoko didn't want Rika's pity back in St.Lucia and outright rejected Rika's attempts to approach her there because she saw it only as pity. So, what she's doing isn't an extension of that, but rather the opposite, which goes along with her being in denial about having changed.
Either way, Eua clearly talks about Satoko obtaining pleasure from what she's doing, so I can't see why Neko would be a rush to get to her final goal. I think it's much more likely to be her actually acknowledging her new nature and embracing it - look back at Keiichi wielding Satoshi's bat during the Angel Mort massacre for example. That detail was just pointlessly cruel and doesn't even play a role in breaking Rika. Note also how during the tragedy right before Neko, which we now know for sure was caused by Satoko, she's wearing a completely new outfit, which could go alongside her acknowledging she isn't Satoko anymore (using the festival as an excuse to dress up without raising Rika's suspicions). Note also that she smiles when her identity is exposed at the end of Nekodamashi which lines up with her wanting the game to continue rather than being satisfified by an ending at that point.
Of course, I guess my interpretation could be wrong, but I think everything lines up too well, and either way, if I'm right we'll get answers pointing to it next episode since everything has to happen before Neko.
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Speaking of the Angel Mort scene, what's up with that? Keiichi appears to have L5 immediately (While we are show it takes some days) and Satoko decided to risk everything by being in the same place with a feral L5 Keiichi? I wonder if Sotsu will explain it or it will be another Mion Injection.
Those quick Neko scenes seemed to set up the L5 infected ignoring people who are down and seemingly dead/unconscious, like how Akane only kills Mion once she attempts to stand up. So, Satoko lying on the floor, but without a crushed head was supposed to be a hint she was actually alive. It's an odd detail tough since you'd think paranoid people would be more likely to continue attacking corpses (and that pretty much happens in the VN).
Well, that can come down to the way the approach was handled. Rika rather tactlessly calls attention to it in front of the class instead of reaching out privately. In that moment Satoko couldn't even see Rika, just how the other girls were judging her.
The other thing about pre-looper Satoko is she's not going to admit to wanting anything from others since she's still got a complex about Satoshi supposedly abandoning her for relying on him too much. She still wants to be seen will take help when it's unspoken but kind of expects Rika to read her mind a bit. In that alternate reality event from Mei we see that things going better comes down more to how Rika handles things. There Satoko is receptive but still needs constant reassurance that she's not being a burden.
The other thing about pre-looper Satoko is she's not going to admit to wanting anything from others since she's still got a complex about Satoshi supposedly abandoning her for relying on him too much. She still wants to be seen will take help when it's unspoken but kind of expects Rika to read her mind a bit. In that alternate reality event from Mei we see that things going better comes down more to how Rika handles things. There Satoko is receptive but still needs constant reassurance that she's not being a burden.
There's not much game left to play at that point since Rika will remember regardless. It's possible she smiled because she actually wanted to be found out. Maybe she wants Rika to realize why this is all happening because just being together in a false world will not heal the wounds from St. Lucia and she wants her pain to be acknowledged.
So just watched episode 3 of season 2. So does this whole Reina arc mean that the reason by Reina killed Keichi in the old original series because she has been killing her dads hostess friend nearly every loop? If that's the case how was she getting injected with the sickness if Satako wasn't in charge of those original loops?
I think she killed her every arc she went L5, yes, but that was only in arc 6 of original Higurashi. Most people didn't get injected with H173 in the original Higurashi. Hinamizawa syndrome can appear naturally due to suspicion and not trusting people around you.
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Regarding Rena attacking Keiichi, that was just about the Gou arc. In the original series, the correct answer was that Rena wasn't trying to kill Keiichi. Keiichi was delirious by the end. He was the one succumbing to the syndrome and due to that saw Rena and Mion being much more sinister than they actually were, alongside seeing complete illusions a few times (the needle in the food, or the scene where Mion and Rena hold him, where it was meant to be a prank where they'd write on his shirt, but he saw it as them holding a syringe). This was revealed in the final story of the original season (if you go by the anime) or 2nd arc of Kai for the VN.
As far as Rina goes, the scenario where she appears and ends up killed by Rena could happen naturally too, without Satoko's intervention (yet again, it happens in the final story of season 1). Although that Rina was working alongside Teppei and was a worse person in general, attempting to attack Rena herself before she was killed, rather than talking with Rena about telling her father to stop seeking her. That scenario doesn't happen everytime though. In many worlds Rina ends up killed by the Sonozaki after trying to steal from them (this is what leads to Teppei's return to Hinamizawa in the old series).
Everyone in Hinamizawa is technically infected by the syndrome, but it only progresses if the character is under tension, leading to paranoia. In the original story for example, Keiichi's starts to progress because he leaves Hinamziwa for a while to visit a funeral, hearing Hanyuu's voice there somehow. Then returning to Hinamizawa he learned about the crimes during Watanagashi, but all his friends tried to hide them from him, which made him start suspecting them, escalating from there.
In Gou, it was suggested the syndrome weakened without Hanyuu around, which is why all the killings now seem to be artificially caused by Satoko injecting them directly.
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Right that makes much more sense. Thank you both.
Just one question about Lambdadelta. If I remember in Umineko she implied she helped Miyo originally on her path to become a god. So if Lambdadelta IS Satako, does that mean she will be at one stage going back in time far enough to set Miyo on her original path? In the process becoming the original reason all loops happened?
That's hard to answer right now but possibly yes. Even Rika could time travel at the end of Matsuribayashi to help Miyo not get separated from her parents. I always interpreted it as Lambda already existing at the time of OG Higurashi but there's a lot of possible time travel I guess.