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Well, there was an interview by episode 3 where Ryukishi already talked about how you shouldn't take Bernkastel as an ally for granted (or Lambda as an enemy).
07th-expansion.fandom.com
He also questions Lambda's connection to Higurashi there.
The comment about Bern being just an extra character to give hints was regarding Bern in Episode 1.
07th-expansion.fandom.com
I also remember an interview where he explicitly talked about how he had more witch world lore in his head regarding Bern/Lambda/Featherine, although I can't find the quote right now (and this was after Umineko anyway, so it's not very relevant regarding his early ideas).
Umineko Talk
Umineko Talk (うみねこ対談, Umineko Taidan) is a 3-part interview between KEIYA and Ryukishi07 that was posted by Dengeki Online in 2008. Part 1 was published on September 23, part 2 on September 30, and part 3 on October 7. In it, Ryukishi talks about Banquet of the Golden Witch's development and...
07th-expansion.fandom.com
The comment about Bern being just an extra character to give hints was regarding Bern in Episode 1.
Answer to the Golden Witch
Final Thoughts on Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru: Answer to the golden witch Episode 5-8 (最終考察うみねこのなく頃に散 Answer to the golden witch Episode 5-8) is a Umineko When They Cry analysis book written by KEIYA and published by 07th Expansion. It includes a record of a discussion between KEIYA and...
07th-expansion.fandom.com
I also remember an interview where he explicitly talked about how he had more witch world lore in his head regarding Bern/Lambda/Featherine, although I can't find the quote right now (and this was after Umineko anyway, so it's not very relevant regarding his early ideas).
Eua calls Satoko. You can see purple waves coming from the shrine to Satoko and then from the statue, and those are the only reason Satoko even goes there. Yeah, all the tragedies afterwards were caused due to Satoko's decisions, but Eua contacted her at the perfect time to get a Satoko who would go in that direction.
Fragment watching a logic error itself though. And the duration of Satoko's is even kind of confusing since she's shown watching scenes that took place after Rika's death. After she wakes up, she starts speaking about knowing all rules of Rika's tragedy, which was presumably the goal that required a will of certainty. She had a specific target and assurance she'd arrive there, just needed a strong will to cross it all. It perfectly matches a hell that was "made to be escapable" with "will of certainty".
It's hard to comment on it since the anime doesn't have character exposition. We see her saying "goodbye to Satoshi" but even that ends up very ambiguous to the lack of anything else around it. Still, in this newest episode , we see her apparently wanting to drive Mion insane just because she's curious about what an insane Mion would be like. That's really more Takano-like than anything else and makes one wonder how much of "Satoko" is even in there still.
That part is due to the boredom of an eternal existence bringing back the horrors that linger in their memories. It really shouldn't be such a big issue for them right now. Even Gou/Sotsu Rika who suddenly dislikes Hinamizawa due to the loops (even though it was never a thing for Rika herself before, only Bernkastel hating her past in Umineko) still seems just fine when she isn't witnessing a new tragedy there.
It's also treated as a direct game though, like Bern referencing it as a contest of endurance and saying Lambda just got tired and stopped. At least as presented in Umineko, it doesn't sound like Lambda was meant to be that passive.
Regarding the timeline of the events, that's actually something I'm wondering about. There is Satoko's scene with Eua which might hint she was something special from the start and just forgot it, but it also could be just her associating Satoko with the 34 character type. Either way though, I doubt we'll actually get a clear answer. Even if there is a witch ending, we probably won't see a scene with Satoko blessing Takano. Even if there is one, it could just be seen as an unrelated fragment, like Higurashi's epilogue where Frederica blesses Miyoko, rather than Higurashi somehow looping on itself. That certainly wasn't the original intention when that reference was made, but Takano having contact with some supernatural entity itself was a big retcon, especially with the way Matsuri frames Takano vs Hanyuu.
The recent high school Rika/Satoko banner for Mei actually leaned towards Satoko being special from the start too for some mysterious reason. The characters from Mei impose their cognition on the fragments they enter (allowing stuff like unconsciously materializing the clothing they associate with themselves where they live), and that disappears when they leave, making people forget them, but a non-looper Satoko for some reason still remembers them years later, while even Rika couldn't. Of course, in the end it could be just some Mei-only element, but it's odd they introduced that with their first Gou/Sotsu tie-in story.
Regarding the timeline of the events, that's actually something I'm wondering about. There is Satoko's scene with Eua which might hint she was something special from the start and just forgot it, but it also could be just her associating Satoko with the 34 character type. Either way though, I doubt we'll actually get a clear answer. Even if there is a witch ending, we probably won't see a scene with Satoko blessing Takano. Even if there is one, it could just be seen as an unrelated fragment, like Higurashi's epilogue where Frederica blesses Miyoko, rather than Higurashi somehow looping on itself. That certainly wasn't the original intention when that reference was made, but Takano having contact with some supernatural entity itself was a big retcon, especially with the way Matsuri frames Takano vs Hanyuu.
The recent high school Rika/Satoko banner for Mei actually leaned towards Satoko being special from the start too for some mysterious reason. The characters from Mei impose their cognition on the fragments they enter (allowing stuff like unconsciously materializing the clothing they associate with themselves where they live), and that disappears when they leave, making people forget them, but a non-looper Satoko for some reason still remembers them years later, while even Rika couldn't. Of course, in the end it could be just some Mei-only element, but it's odd they introduced that with their first Gou/Sotsu tie-in story.
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They are really going there with injecting Mion and even made a point to spell out that she has never succumbed to the syndrome in previous worlds, I'm looking forward to seeing how the rest of this arc plays out.
I do still find it funny though that Satoko can learn how to manipulate, how to use a gun, can kill herself over and over to get the code to the briefcase and remember memory card games and winning horse names and yet she still can't succeed at school. Like come on
I do still find it funny though that Satoko can learn how to manipulate, how to use a gun, can kill herself over and over to get the code to the briefcase and remember memory card games and winning horse names and yet she still can't succeed at school. Like come on
I just knew someone would make that joke the second the episode cut away from the injection.
Well, there was an interview by episode 3 where Ryukishi already talked about how you shouldn't take Bernkastel as an ally for granted (or Lambda as an enemy).
He also questions Lambda's connection to Higurashi there.Umineko Talk
Umineko Talk (うみねこ対談, Umineko Taidan) is a 3-part interview between KEIYA and Ryukishi07 that was posted by Dengeki Online in 2008. Part 1 was published on September 23, part 2 on September 30, and part 3 on October 7. In it, Ryukishi talks about Banquet of the Golden Witch's development and...
The comment about Bern being just an extra character to give hints was regarding Bern in Episode 1.
Answer to the Golden Witch
Final Thoughts on Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru: Answer to the golden witch Episode 5-8 (最終考察うみねこのなく頃に散 Answer to the golden witch Episode 5-8) is a Umineko When They Cry analysis book written by KEIYA and published by 07th Expansion. It includes a record of a discussion between KEIYA and...
I also remember an interview where he explicitly talked about how he had more witch world lore in his head regarding Bern/Lambda/Featherine, although I can't find the quote right now (and this was after Umineko anyway, so it's not very relevant regarding his early ideas).
Ep. 3 is when things obviously changed, it also has the scene with Lambda treating Beatrice, one of the reasons he made Bern evil was iirc he was annoyed people kept voting her in the polls and "it would be fun to see Rika become evil (because she was BT's favorite character)"
I remember the quote about Featherine and the Witch World, but as you said it's after Umineko, but by the time Episode 6 rolled it was obviously the role of these two expanded.
I remember the quote about Featherine and the Witch World, but as you said it's after Umineko, but by the time Episode 6 rolled it was obviously the role of these two expanded.
Did she? Like she seems surprised as Satoko and mentioned she... didn't exist in this fragment before being touched? To begin with, she also seems to know Satoko too and think of her as a friend, so we don't know what exactly happened before she got summoned. Satoko herself just happened to be near the shrine that day before getting pulled.
OK you lost me here, but how? Logic errors are described as scenarios you can't get out that don't make sense. Like writing nonsense. Rika tries everything, but every time her friends go insane. That's because her GM is not playing. Battler tries to get out of the room, but he created a scenario where no one can save him. There is a way out, but he refuses to use it, creating a contradiction in script. How is the act of watching something "a logic error"? Why did R07 portray this logic error as something so light? Like, every time he mentions logic errors in 6 he empathizes they are horrible scenarios, Eua asks to Satoko if she wants to observe Rika's story with the same levity Will asks Lion if Lion wants to watch Beatrice's games. She doesn't mention her mind may broke or it will be like hell, just that it will take a lot of time.
I mean, she murdered Rika in cold blood after one loop over her breaking a promise. I say Satoko was no longer Satoko after 1 loop, since it's something OG Satoko would never do...
Just living in Hinamizawa isn't comparable to looping. Gou Rika almost decides to wipe herself out of existence because she's forced to loop! Even in the manga she breaks down crying at Hanyuu for being forced to revive the loops. Satoko is currently using everything in her "logic error" to bring more misery and looping, she's like living an extension of it and enjoying the shiet out if it. Am I suppose to infer the time spent watching Higurashi was horrible for her?
Yeah but Umineko in general is just really weird how when he talks about Higurashi. Like how they describe Bern's power as "folding a paper to the moon". Lambda is Takano's guardian but also is playing a game against Bern but also thanks Takano for "giving her a witch".
I think the thing that made it work is that Higurashi and Umineko were so vague and with Umineko playing with the idea that Bern and Lambda are more like concepts than anything, so 34 just represented Takano's hard working personality bending fate, aka good efforts are rewarded if you work hard (Eventually. If a miracle doesn't stop you). The meta world especially in Umineko can be entirelly taken as a reflection of reality more than anything.
Yeah, I'm right there with you. I'm sure everyone who is posting big ole spoiler walls is having a fun time debating the intricacies of the meta-plot or whatever, but I no longer buy the initial setup to all of this. At first, I figured the dichotomy between Satoko's experiences in Hinamizawa and St Lucia's was being deliberately exaggerated in order to reinforce that point, even as it got a bit absurd:
- Satoko always being around Rika and her friends vs her total isolation to the point of being locked in a cell
- Satoko's traps always being played off as comedy with no lasting injuries vs her traps causing actual physical damage
- Satoko has moments showing her analytical mind, deduction skills and great memory recall (such as when Rena held the school hostage with a bomb) vs her total failure in school despite her trying desperately to bring her grades up
I'm having difficulty discerning what is supposed to be shorthand to get things moving (i.e. the chandelier) vs things I'm supposed to take literally. Stuff like the mystery injection technique only reinforces the fact that they are playing very fast and loose to get to the end, and I'm losing the will to suspend my disbelief and go along for the ride. The original just didn't make these kinds of easily avoidable leaps of logic.
Satoko's failure is probably meant to be seen like Keiichi's backstory, when she loses her motivation she just can't apply herself to it. St.Lucia is an environment that she dislikes and without Rika hanging out with her she had basically no incentive to even improve her grades. It's not like they were close even while they were in the same class (although this happened due to Satoko wanting to give her "space" while also believing Rika would get tired of St.Lucia and want to drop out). As soon as she became a looper, Satoko's main interest was "testing" Rika (since she believes Rika was the one who told the school she was behind the trap that hit one of the girls) rather than actually attempting to improve herself there. Note that in that first loop Rika outright accuses Satoko of putting herself in the position of victim.
In Gou itself, Eua associated Satoko with Vier, who is a genius in Ciconia. Overall though, not only in the recent Gou/Sotsu developments, even spin-off material is pushing Satoko from the start as someone very smart (like in Mei's Steins Gate collab she studies under Okabe to incorporate electronic equipment into her traps - although this whole timeline ends up erased).
I think the lack of monologues really hurt the St.Lucia story though, since there are many timeskips there, so monologues would be pretty much necessary to tie things together. I'm really interested to see what the manga will do with it since it doesn't fear monologues like the anime does.
Huh? Eua clearly welcomes Satoko when she first appears in the sea of fragments. She doesn't seem surprised at all. And like I said, when Satoko is near the shrine she sees/senses purple waves, which is she goes towards it, and once getting inside there are more waves that draw her towards the statue. It's clear Eua was the one initiating contact, not just some coincidence. The shrine itself was unlocked and empty too, which is a pretty unusual state.
Bern's logic error is described to be just because the game master (and Bern) didn't know how to reach their desired ending rather than being caused by an actual contradiction like Battler's. So, the definition is rather loose.
I don't think the Lion example is anywhere near comparable since Beatrice's games were few in number and comparatively short. In Satoko's case, she'd be watching the full duration of Rika's hell and even more (since she sees scenes beyond Rika's death too). And she comes out of it fully understanding the rules of Rika's original tragedy - basically "solving" the error. It seems to be the kind of experience that could be described as a "Hell that was made to be escapable with the willpower of certainty", like Lambda's is described. A situation where as long as she kept her will going she'd certainly be able to leave.
Anyway, regarding Satoko's mind... Eua initially doesn't mention Rika's mind being broken either, just her will to leave being caused by the loops. However, once Satoko returns from the 100 years, Satoko immediately starts talking about how having an eternal existence doesn't actually protect their heart - Eua then goes on to confirm saying that it doesn't guarantee a preserved mind, so her power truthfully doesn't make her immortal. And after all that Satoko says that the same must apply to Rika (which means she was talking about herself before).
I don't think the Lion example is anywhere near comparable since Beatrice's games were few in number and comparatively short. In Satoko's case, she'd be watching the full duration of Rika's hell and even more (since she sees scenes beyond Rika's death too). And she comes out of it fully understanding the rules of Rika's original tragedy - basically "solving" the error. It seems to be the kind of experience that could be described as a "Hell that was made to be escapable with the willpower of certainty", like Lambda's is described. A situation where as long as she kept her will going she'd certainly be able to leave.
Anyway, regarding Satoko's mind... Eua initially doesn't mention Rika's mind being broken either, just her will to leave being caused by the loops. However, once Satoko returns from the 100 years, Satoko immediately starts talking about how having an eternal existence doesn't actually protect their heart - Eua then goes on to confirm saying that it doesn't guarantee a preserved mind, so her power truthfully doesn't make her immortal. And after all that Satoko says that the same must apply to Rika (which means she was talking about herself before).
Well, she saw Rika as a traitor before, and that pushed her to kill her parents. Granted, that was with Hinamizawa syndrome, but this time she has the fact that it's not a "permanent" death and she'd see Rika again soon.
Rikais initially confident though in both anime and manga, it's just when seeing that her previous knowledge was useless and she might be fated to another long hell that she starts breaking. More specifically, it even breaks her goal, since she doesn't trust in a miraculous victory anymore, she saw herself thrown back into loops even after it, and questions to Hanyuu what even would be the point of surviving, back in Neko, when she considers killing herself.
In Satoko's case, on the other hand, she feels in full control of it all. In spite of that though, she quickly deviated from recreating the previous tragedies to pushing ones she had never seen before, and now we know that aspect seemingly wasn't even part of some super complex plan, she was just interested in seeing them.
In Satoko's case, on the other hand, she feels in full control of it all. In spite of that though, she quickly deviated from recreating the previous tragedies to pushing ones she had never seen before, and now we know that aspect seemingly wasn't even part of some super complex plan, she was just interested in seeing them.
I think this goes back to what I mentioned before. People were generally willing to overlook those early comments about Lambda and Bern's past (especially with the story later changing the focus of Bern's past to Featherine and even the manga dropping some of the lines that indicated more direct interactions), but any actual portrayal of that early set up would end up in something pretty messed up. And, yes, the Umineko meta characters were generally reflections of real world aspects, although that entire aspect gets jumbled when you get to Lambda and Bern, who are meant to reference Higurashi, while not having clear counterparts in Umineko's real world. I mean, there is a cat for Bern, but that obviously has nothing to do with the heartless search for an answer, which is more of a collective group which ends up associated with other characters too.
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There is a dialogue in one of the later episodes (I think it may be the episode where she gets named?) where she mentions something that she first aligned with this fragment the moment Satoko touched the statue? And that before that, she didn't even exist, hence the lack of name? That's what I'm talking about it. It's hard to gauge Eua's intentions, she also seems at least to be on friendly terms with Satoko's other selves, hence lending her the power to loop may have been a favor.
Bern's logic error is described to be just because the game master (and Bern) didn't know how to reach their desired ending rather than being caused by an actual contradiction like Battler's. So, the definition is rather loose.
She also said this:
This is Umineko talking Higurashi so not a 1:1, but she describes Hanyuu as a game master and Rika as a piece. We know game masters are considered on a higher level than pieces (Which fits, since Hanyuu is a god and aware of the sea of fragments) and pieces are well... just pieces. So Rika is forced to play a game the GM Hanyuu started but never thought a goal and never bothered to play... I'd say it definitely feels like a logic error from a piece point of view. It's a game someone started and became abandoned, so it makes no sense because there is no real goal.
More so, if this is the game that "created" Bernkastel and they are talking about Gou, how do you reconcile the lack of Hanyuu (And they specifically use Hanyuu there, not Featherine)? Because unless R07 pulls a last minute twist we know Hanyuu has nothing to do with this (in fact, she's not even in Gou, that Hanyuu technically, since that's like just a fragment of her) and Rika in Gou didn't certainly loop for 100 years. Counting the years is specifically what broke Bern.
This is Umineko talking Higurashi so not a 1:1, but she describes Hanyuu as a game master and Rika as a piece. We know game masters are considered on a higher level than pieces (Which fits, since Hanyuu is a god and aware of the sea of fragments) and pieces are well... just pieces. So Rika is forced to play a game the GM Hanyuu started but never thought a goal and never bothered to play... I'd say it definitely feels like a logic error from a piece point of view. It's a game someone started and became abandoned, so it makes no sense because there is no real goal.
More so, if this is the game that "created" Bernkastel and they are talking about Gou, how do you reconcile the lack of Hanyuu (And they specifically use Hanyuu there, not Featherine)? Because unless R07 pulls a last minute twist we know Hanyuu has nothing to do with this (in fact, she's not even in Gou, that Hanyuu technically, since that's like just a fragment of her) and Rika in Gou didn't certainly loop for 100 years. Counting the years is specifically what broke Bern.
I agree that Lion watching Beatrice's game isn't comparable, but my point is that Fragment watching is something everyone did casually until now and it have never been presented as something that could be horrific.
This is Lambda talking about her hell... was I suppose to infer that watching Rika's life was something that completely terrified Satoko? Like, I didn't get the impression at all. Why didn't R07 reinforced that this experience was going to be horrific, if it was going to be Lambdatoko's origin story? He had the perfect opportunity to even use "Logic error" or "you'll need absolute certainly to get out of it" but Eua just tells her she'll need a lot of time, which she accepts and takes as a way to "educate" herself.
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This is the scene, am I suppose to infer that before and after she's like a completely different person? Because I'm not seeing it. Even Battler came out of the logic error more confused. She's actually pretty chill and level headed about that? She even stops to say goodbye to Satoshi!
This is Lambda talking about her hell... was I suppose to infer that watching Rika's life was something that completely terrified Satoko? Like, I didn't get the impression at all. Why didn't R07 reinforced that this experience was going to be horrific, if it was going to be Lambdatoko's origin story? He had the perfect opportunity to even use "Logic error" or "you'll need absolute certainly to get out of it" but Eua just tells her she'll need a lot of time, which she accepts and takes as a way to "educate" herself.
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This is the scene, am I suppose to infer that before and after she's like a completely different person? Because I'm not seeing it. Even Battler came out of the logic error more confused. She's actually pretty chill and level headed about that? She even stops to say goodbye to Satoshi!
I reeeeeally wouldn't compare killing her parents under L5 to killing her best friend because she could.
In the manga she breaks down and starts crying when she's forced to go back to the endless June. Of course, she thinks she was probably going to get out in one try since she had all the answers, but we saw in the first arc the moment everything failed she just gave up and killed herself, without even bothering to hide the body.
Also Satoko is never really a victim in this. She has all the power and can do what she wants, people in logic errors are described as powerless and the result of something or something messing up.
Also Satoko is never really a victim in this. She has all the power and can do what she wants, people in logic errors are described as powerless and the result of something or something messing up.
I always saw them as both, like Bern can be Rika witch Persona that flew off to other universes and the metaphysical representation of miracles.
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Yeah, that line is there. She doesn't say the bit about not existing beforehand though, just that it's the first time she's alighting in that fragment. Still, like I said, the purple waves make it obvious she was the one calling Satoko. She also mentions that Satoko got to her due to her being close to Rika, which further hints that she had specific intentions behind that contact.
The text in the beginning of your image happens alongside the one I posted. She first says the game had no goal, then goes in that more specific explanation, where it sounds more like they didn't know how to reach their goal. The manga doesn't have the full text of the VN, and so it removes Lambda's elaboration. Regarding Hanyuu's role, I think Gou, like with some of the other Higurashi references in Umineko, is just making everything much more direct. Originally, Hanyuu never left Rika. She was always by her side, and they knew their goal was surviving June 1983, she was just kind of useless (until she suddenly resolves everything in Matsuri). Hanyuu in Gou outright leaves Rika with no clear goal (she even initially thinks Hanyuu was hinting she should kill herself, and even aside from that isn't even sure if surviving June 1983 is really the answer), following the Umineko description much more closely about a game with goal.
As far as the length goes, this is the one point where things get odd and actually more nebulous than before, but I think the anime staff just messed up. They seem to prefer locking down specific moments of the story, making it sound like there's nothing beyond them, which kind of works against that here. However, Rika has a line in the Nekodamashi anime where she describes both the original Higurashi and Gou as "very, very long dreams", making both sound comparable in legth, although the first one also had "shiny wonders" whlle Gou was just a "long, long nightmare". The manga also had a sequence showing tons of extra loops compared to the anime. So, I guess the anime staff just failed to allude to extra loops in a stronger way (although it still could happen in Sotsu).
As far as the length goes, this is the one point where things get odd and actually more nebulous than before, but I think the anime staff just messed up. They seem to prefer locking down specific moments of the story, making it sound like there's nothing beyond them, which kind of works against that here. However, Rika has a line in the Nekodamashi anime where she describes both the original Higurashi and Gou as "very, very long dreams", making both sound comparable in legth, although the first one also had "shiny wonders" whlle Gou was just a "long, long nightmare". The manga also had a sequence showing tons of extra loops compared to the anime. So, I guess the anime staff just failed to allude to extra loops in a stronger way (although it still could happen in Sotsu).
I agree that Lion watching Beatrice's game isn't comparable, but my point is that Fragment watching is something everyone did casually until now and it have never been presented as something that could be horrific.
This is Lambda talking about her hell... was I suppose to infer that watching Rika's life was something that completely terrified Satoko? Like, I didn't get the impression at all. Why didn't R07 reinforced that this experience was going to be horrific, if it was going to be Lambdatoko's origin story? He had the perfect opportunity to even use "Logic error" or "you'll need absolute certainly to get out of it" but Eua just tells her she'll need a lot of time, which she accepts and takes as a way to "educate" herself.
Satoko comes out of her viewing talking about mind damage and wonders if the same goes to Rika, which Eua confirms. I agree that what the anime attempted to do lacked any impact though. The whole "goodbye nii-nii" scene probably was supposed to be that, before Gou/Sotsu "nii-nii" was what everyone associated the most with Satoko, so her saying Goodbye Satoshi is likely meant to be seen as a big break from her past, they just didn't sell it well at all. They really needed monologues but seem to hate it for some reason.
That scene in the manga is after she had already failed to stop the incident with Keiichi and Rena too, like the one in Sotsu ep4, not the one in Gou ep.2. Regarding Umineko, another bit of dialogue that's cut from the manga is that when Lambda is explaining hers and Bern's logic errors to Erika, she adds that Bern's error wasn't her own fault, but says nothing like that when mentioning the time she was locked in hell by a witch. So, that would also fit Satoko voluntarily experiencing Rika's loops.
Eeeeh, I dunno. Like I can see what you mean, I guess we'll see if we get more Eua's stuff.
I don't agree here, in the original Hanyuu started the looping, but did nothing. She only told Rika to wait, believing fighting fate was pointless. She actually non active and was content spending time with Rika. So she loops, but she doesn't try to solve their situation, unlike Rika, who tried a bunch of stuff. Then at the very last moment, with the club's encouragement, she joined. She's the one that put together the Matsuri's fragment, which curiously fit a GM type of a character. This imo fits that description to a T.
In Gou to begin with that is not Hanyuu, Hanyuu is already dead/sleeping, it's a fragment of her that is not doing nothing. Hanyuu is also specifically stated to not be the one looping Rika, it's all Satoko and Eua. She basically only appeared because Rika's died and ended up in the sea of fragment. I really don't see how she fits the figure of the "GM who started it and didn't play". I don't think Hanyuu could even play because it's made clear that Rika is talking to is just a fragment. Indeed, the one who started the loop isn't Hanyuu, but Satoko.
In Gou to begin with that is not Hanyuu, Hanyuu is already dead/sleeping, it's a fragment of her that is not doing nothing. Hanyuu is also specifically stated to not be the one looping Rika, it's all Satoko and Eua. She basically only appeared because Rika's died and ended up in the sea of fragment. I really don't see how she fits the figure of the "GM who started it and didn't play". I don't think Hanyuu could even play because it's made clear that Rika is talking to is just a fragment. Indeed, the one who started the loop isn't Hanyuu, but Satoko.
The manga also has other differences, such as Rika doesn't remember her deaths. The anime seems to be the one where R07 collaborated the most. But really there is a problem here: Rika herself set up a time-limit for herself, something R07 specifically wrote into the story. We know she looped 3 times and each loop lasted around 2 weeks, and then 5 extra loops, with some of the loops being short (Like the Angel Mort loop or Satoko's one). That's not even a year! Even if you want to count the manga loops, unless she looped a million of times, it's what, 6 months? Rika in Gou is breaking not because she's counting the years, but because she's forced back into her personal hell.
Right, forgot about that. Tough it's also true that before that scene she had no idea of what actually happened, she thought she just died and Hanyuu resurrected her so she did her usual thing and it didn't work.
Hanyuu playing a big part and guiding Rika towards the solution obviously doesn't fit that description though. They also always had a clear goal, and just couldn't clear the obstacles towards it. You could interpret it all in a loose way, of course, and that's certainly how it was originally meant to be seen - Rika finding the miraculous solution for example was probably meant to be Minagoroshi even though that wasn't the actual ending.
However, in the new scenario, the goal is much more obscure and Rika truly has no one guiding her. Hanyuu outright says Rika is the one who has to find her future and such. The only part that becomes odder is the Umineko manga imagery, but even regarding that we now get Hanyuu outright leaving, like the imagery shown in the Umineko manga. I guess you can question her being in the game master position, although everything technically started back then. Rika wanting to go to St.Lucia is a direct consequence of the effect of Hanyuu's loops on her, not something unrelated. It's part of why Rika was despairing in ep14. Now she feels like she never truly "won".
However, in the new scenario, the goal is much more obscure and Rika truly has no one guiding her. Hanyuu outright says Rika is the one who has to find her future and such. The only part that becomes odder is the Umineko manga imagery, but even regarding that we now get Hanyuu outright leaving, like the imagery shown in the Umineko manga. I guess you can question her being in the game master position, although everything technically started back then. Rika wanting to go to St.Lucia is a direct consequence of the effect of Hanyuu's loops on her, not something unrelated. It's part of why Rika was despairing in ep14. Now she feels like she never truly "won".
This part about manga vs anime starts getting odd because we just don't have much info about the manga's plotting. We know it was closer to R07's original outline regarding Onidamashi's conclusion, but only because R07 specifically talked about how the anime staff moved the Hanyuu scene from the end of Onidamashi to episode 2 in order to have an earlier hook for returning viewers. So, regarding the other differences it's hard to say what would be closer to the plot.
I mentioned the oddity regarding the length of the loops though just because, in the anime itself, Rika describes both loops in similar terms, rather than saying that the original was a long nightmare but with shiny spots, while Gou was a shorter but much more intense one. She describes both as very, very long dreams. That line just stands out in an odd way considering everything else in the anime, while in the manga by showing that multitude of loops, rather than focusing on a few specific ones, that line would fit better (even if it'd require a stupidly big amount of loops) - although, of course, the manga hasn't gotten to that point yet, so there is still a chance the line won't even be there.
However, I just remembered R07 referenced it as an "Endless Loop game" in that interview that happened after Gou ep21.
Higurashi Gou SP Live Talk
On February 22, 2021, Ryukishi07 hosted a livestream on NicoNico where he answered several questions about Higurashi: When They Cry - GOU. This page contains a partial transcript of conversations between Ryukishi and the host, translated by Klashikari with notes marked in italics. Other notable...
07th-expansion.fandom.com
which of course sounds odd with the specific anime count, but works out better if there are more loops beyond the ones actually shown.
Wataakashi 2
EverythingWasMion.jpg
Really, there's nothing left to say. Mion's injection being offscreen wasn't a clever ruse, it was just the usual lumpy directing / plotting. (They probably legitimately couldn't think of a better way for it to work than Mion's big butt padding the needle.) Shmion never switch places once. Satoko takes no further action whatsoever, instead spending her time making shwing-noise red eyes at the camera for no reason and ruining the hell out of curry day (so much for Ciel-sensei being super strict about curry, huh?). Oh, and as a bonus, want to watch Rika's ritual dance again? No? Too bad!
It's really well past time to stop taking minor oddities as clues, and start seeing them for what they always have been: poor writing, inconsistent characterization, and shoddy cinematography.
EverythingWasMion.jpg
Really, there's nothing left to say. Mion's injection being offscreen wasn't a clever ruse, it was just the usual lumpy directing / plotting. (They probably legitimately couldn't think of a better way for it to work than Mion's big butt padding the needle.) Shmion never switch places once. Satoko takes no further action whatsoever, instead spending her time making shwing-noise red eyes at the camera for no reason and ruining the hell out of curry day (so much for Ciel-sensei being super strict about curry, huh?). Oh, and as a bonus, want to watch Rika's ritual dance again? No? Too bad!
It's really well past time to stop taking minor oddities as clues, and start seeing them for what they always have been: poor writing, inconsistent characterization, and shoddy cinematography.
This episode they went back and explained why Tomitake and Takano leave their vehicles behind, after skipping that during Oni Akashi, although it's not like it was a surprising explanation. I'd guess the syringe scene will be something similar. Later on we'll get the "surprising" reveal that she's actually mixing it with drinks.
What annoyed me this episode is that Shion just happened to apparently act like the beginning of her L5 self from Meakashi due to a series of coincidences (like how dragging Keiichi to the shrine seems like a complete whim here, and the call was entirely genuine and yet almost identical to her acting from Mea) with her comment from Watadamashi about being unable to forgive her sister for a few things not even being acknowledged in this side of the story. Considering how she crumbles when Mion confronts her it's clear she isn't meant to be going L5 at all. Everything would have worked out much better if she had been more aggressive in that scene.
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Shion going L5 was never going to happen cuz the story makes clear that if Satoko doesn't do anything, there are no tragedies and since Matsu and the other arcs solved the club member's problems they are never going L5 again. Hence why once Rika accepts Hinamizawa the tragedies just stop.
It's why this shit show is so boring since everyone figured the truth months ago.
Also I guess this ep confirms once for all Rika never did anything about Takano?
It's why this shit show is so boring since everyone figured the truth months ago.
Also I guess this ep confirms once for all Rika never did anything about Takano?
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Considering they haven't shown the twin's backstory, yet I think we're either getting a flashback next episode or getting more answers in the Tatari answer arc judging how they put some Teppei stuff in this arc's first episode. For example Rena doesn't go on her rant in Tatari because she remembers what happens in Oni.
Just finished binging Gou and didn't realize Sotsu had already started airing. Though the impressions here are far from glowing. Lots of mixed thoughts on Gou despite enjoying it overall (especially since I only remember bits and pieces from the earlier anime adaptations). Overall...Madoka did it better.
I'll admit that all the Umineko discussions go completely over my head and make my eyes glaze over a bit, though. And I refuse to believe there's actually a character named "Lamdadelta". Hopefully this is all an excuse to lead into a proper anime adaptation so I can finally see what it's all about. (And maybe understand Rika's name change.)
I'll admit that all the Umineko discussions go completely over my head and make my eyes glaze over a bit, though. And I refuse to believe there's actually a character named "Lamdadelta". Hopefully this is all an excuse to lead into a proper anime adaptation so I can finally see what it's all about. (And maybe understand Rika's name change.)
The "Frederica Bernkastel" name should have been explained in Higurashi Rei, but the anime completely skipped the two important scenes related to it for some reason, even though it left a single name drop that ends up completely out of context. In addition to the VN itself, the manga also has those scenes though.
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I've definitely thought about checking out the VNs, but then I look at how long they take to get through... I need edited down versions for casuals.
I'm also recently caught up on this after sleeping on Gou because I thought it was just a remake. I'm enjoying it but man are we in some real "when are they gonna get to the fireworks factory?" territory right now.
I highly doubt there will ever be another anime. It'd take 100 episodes to do justice and nobody would bank that after the first one tanked.
The manga is still available digitally and it's really good. I'm currently reading it myself since I wanted to reexperience the story without devoting 150 hours to it. It's a bit on the pricey side for all the volumes though.
I highly doubt there will ever be another anime. It'd take 100 episodes to do justice and nobody would bank that after the first one tanked.
FFFFFFFFUUUUCKKKKK Satoko so much holy shit every episode I get angrier at that little fucking brat
After watching the newest episode, I'm starting to wonder if Satoko can actually
I was really looking forward to a Mion centered arc, but this was basically just the cliffsnotes of an arc. They might as well just have had the Satoko gun episode and then presented the rest as a recap.
freely use timestop...
I was really looking forward to a Mion centered arc, but this was basically just the cliffsnotes of an arc. They might as well just have had the Satoko gun episode and then presented the rest as a recap.
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I will reserve my final judgment when all is said and done but I am really not on onboard with the concept. Making TWO GOD DAMN SEASONS just to explain more detailed origin of Bern/Lambda? Plus, Satoko turned into this barely recognizable monster that has zero pity from me, almost wish for Battler to actually appear and make K1 a witch so we can get full blown trainwreck at mach 10.
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Satoko can do anything the plot demands. Next episode she will learn to drive a car.
Hey everybody did you know that Mion was the bad guy this arc
But wait, did you also know that Satoko was the bigger bad guy and had a gun
Oh, you did?
Sorry then, no episode this week, try again next week
But wait, did you also know that Satoko was the bigger bad guy and had a gun
Oh, you did?
Sorry then, no episode this week, try again next week
...On what possible basis? I didn't see anything in the episode to prompt that thought. The most magical thing she did this week was quick draw a gun out of her knickers (apparently), but that trick's old hat at this point.
So did this finally get good?
I am planning to watch the episodes that came out soon. Maybe tonight.
I am planning to watch the episodes that came out soon. Maybe tonight.
Ha. No, Sotsu has not gotten good. There's no need to catch up yet; if you've seen Gou, you've already seen all the episodes of Sotsu that have come out so far. You might think you haven't, but trust me, you have. (Unless you haven't seen Gou either -- but in that case, get out while you can, lol.)
They'll have to try really hard to make the next arc as nothingburger as the last two, and it finally starts next week, so there's that, at least... But honestly, my level of confidence in this show is so low that I'm not expecting anything out of the first and probably second Tatariakashi episodes either. The third will probably have something in it, I guess. Give it three more weeks and check back to see if anything has happened by then, would be my serious advice.
I see. Thanks for replying.
Should I just start next episode (if it is the new arc) then?
Same I was kind of disappointed Mion didn't even really get a POV dedicated to her to follow her progression into L5 or anything like Rena got in the last arc. The question arc was better than the answer arc, and they skipped half the stuff that may have been interesting set up for possible diverges and just went through the standard Meakashi route.
On another note, maybe they're setting up Mion to do something during the gun scene in the Neko arc since we don't see what she got Satoko for her birthday like Rena and K1 did, and being the only club member personally being murdered by Satoko should theoretically make it easier for a memory leak to happen.
I just remembered that Watadamashi was the one arc that didn't have a script written by Naoki Hayashi. Aside from the pacing due to basically only actually having two episodes, it feels like Naoki just didn't actually care to explain any of the red herrings left by Kawaguchi (who is the director, but specifically wrote Watadamashi's script).
Shion mentioning she has unresolved issues with Mion in Watadamashi? Never brought up in Wataakashi.
Shion takes Keiichi to the shrine even though she apparently isn't moved by Satoshi's murder here because... No reason given.
Keiichi was the last person to return to the school building after the break (why?) and somehow misses Rika's body which was apparently left lying somewhere outside by this point...
Satoko asks Keiichi about what happened to Rika even though she knows Mion is the infected...
Aside from Shion taking Keiichi to the shrine, all those moments were anime-only too. Of course, even Mion's L5 characterization was handled in a very superficial way.
It also could double as an explanation for the injections (previously I thought the explanation would be mixing H173 with drinks, but now I'm wondering if everything won't come down to a single reveal later on).
Shion mentioning she has unresolved issues with Mion in Watadamashi? Never brought up in Wataakashi.
Shion takes Keiichi to the shrine even though she apparently isn't moved by Satoshi's murder here because... No reason given.
Keiichi was the last person to return to the school building after the break (why?) and somehow misses Rika's body which was apparently left lying somewhere outside by this point...
Satoko asks Keiichi about what happened to Rika even though she knows Mion is the infected...
Aside from Shion taking Keiichi to the shrine, all those moments were anime-only too. Of course, even Mion's L5 characterization was handled in a very superficial way.
She didn't just pull the gun, she also dropped the bottle, which only fell after her shot. It was like they just cut a scene.
It also could double as an explanation for the injections (previously I thought the explanation would be mixing H173 with drinks, but now I'm wondering if everything won't come down to a single reveal later on).
Sotsu so far has been a glorified recap of Gou. The new scenes often look good, but both arcs now ended up in episodes with really bad pacing due to rushing through a lot of Gou content.
You might as well catch up on the first two arcs. I think they will work better as a binge watch than catching them week to week.
To be full-disclosure serious, I am being a bit silly/grumpy when I call Sotsu reruns of Gou; it's not literally re-used footage or anything (well, for the most part). Because of that, I don't expect it would sit right with most anime watchers to literally skip Oniakashi and Wataakshi like I've suggested. But, at the same time, I'm also serious when I say that Oniakashi and Wataakashi are within a rounding error of literal nothing happening. Everything "new" was already implied, and the new part about it is just that it's being shown outright.
It's ultimately up to your own TV-watching preferences whether you skip it or not, but I do personally think that skipping them is likely to be a better experience that watching them. And, if you did decide to skip some episodes, then the next arc Tatariakashi is likely to be the best place to rejoin the show, since it's a Satoko arc and thus has an actual connection to the ongoing narrative as it left off in Gou -- even if only in terms of character rather than plot. (Gou's hanging plot threads won't pick up again until the arc after this one.)
tl;dr -- Yes, or if you want to wait for definitely new stuff then you could wait one more arc to be safe.
Same honestly, I never really cared about her even in the OG Higurashi other than her circumstances. I'm more or less fine with Gou, but even I'm starting to feel the effects of the 15 episode time limit they're working with, and the rushed pacing this time around.
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I also never liked her but she is literally ruined. The whole friendship dynamic of the group is down in flames, Satoko doesn't care about them aside her Rika fixation. I almost wish that shard will erase Satoko and Rika from existence all together so K1,Rena and Mion can finally escape this hellhole scenario. Let Bern/Lambda troll themselves to oblivion in metaverse.
L5 Mion sucks because the story isn't written to explain her trauma (Does she even have one?) or anything, unlike the original Higu which wasn't just "the higus go crazy" but it used the syndrome the unpack their issues, the meaning of resorting to murder, etc. The story in Sotsugou is written backward from the ending so stuff just happens because it has to happen. It's just surface level violence with nothing to say.
It's also obvious R07 doesn't remember the characters well, he just gave L5 Mion Shion's personality except she's even more violent but she doesn't have the years of abuse and packed trauma Shion had.
Oh and I guess the solution was even more boring, she didn't actually manipulate anyone so far, she only injected people and waited for stuff to happen.
Hey Rika didn't want any of this shit. At this point I can't imagine anyone ever loving Hinamizawa again, it's like a toxic relationship you should quit.
I feel like after we found out Keiichi and Rena's fight played 100% straight we should have stopped worrying about these things. Nothing can beat the
It's also obvious R07 doesn't remember the characters well, he just gave L5 Mion Shion's personality except she's even more violent but she doesn't have the years of abuse and packed trauma Shion had.
If you figured Satoko was the culprit and she did it by injecting people, congratulation, you don't need to watch anything. The only "surprising" explanation was how she got a gun (which really, when you have infinite time it's not hard to think of something). Still no explanation for WHERE she is hiding the damn gun yet. Apparently she has it on her body all the time somehow. Even when she's wearing the skintight school uniform.
Oh and I guess the solution was even more boring, she didn't actually manipulate anyone so far, she only injected people and waited for stuff to happen.
Hey Rika didn't want any of this shit. At this point I can't imagine anyone ever loving Hinamizawa again, it's like a toxic relationship you should quit.
I feel like after we found out Keiichi and Rena's fight played 100% straight we should have stopped worrying about these things. Nothing can beat the
clock
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I just noticed no one posted this here. Interview with Ryukishi07 and Rena and Satoko's VAs about Gou.
Well, we do have a Higurashi Mei (mobile game) voice datamine that could end up pretty relevant.
Well, we do have a Higurashi Mei (mobile game) voice datamine that could end up pretty relevant.
It sounds like a new take on Bernkastel. Unless Mei suddenly introduces its own not-Bernkastel it suggests pretty strongly that by the end of Sotsu we'll end up with the witches.
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Biggest failure is making people at least try to understand how Satoko turned into what she is now. Cause that montage of "WAAAAH I DON'T WANT TO STUDY" and being locked into god damn isolation for pulling dumb crap is not even remotely enough to justify any of this.
It would be hard to justify even if Satoko was on permanent L5.
As of now Satoko just comes as selfish extreme psychopath.
It would be hard to justify even if Satoko was on permanent L5.
As of now Satoko just comes as selfish extreme psychopath.
Thanks for the responses.
I guess I will see what I should do. I might go ahead and watch it but for now I will leave it be and watch something else.
Well, it's just speculation, since no names are directly mentioned. Although you're probably right. No reason to not use a spoiler tag.
Basically, it's Rika's VA doing her adult voice, but in a more lively tone than the Umineko Bernkastel. However, she has several quotes that seem directly relevant to Bern, like talking about traveling between worlds escaping from boredom, being so old she can't count her birthdays, treating her enemies as insects that shouldn't be able to touch her, and outright mentions the "power of a witch".
https://streamable.com/djd3ds
https://streamable.com/djd3ds
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Oh, I was reading the manga just now and it actually explains what happened to Hanyuu, after escaping the loops she went to sleep and distanced herself from the mortal realm, thus that caused her to end in ghost jail. It seems the manga is a much better representation of the story, but I'll reserve my judgement until I read more. It also doesn't exaggerate the blood as much.
Or you could just watch it for yourself and form your own opinion.
It's not that bad. But so far Sotsu is just "answer arcs" for the first few arcs of Gou. Nothing has advanced the overall plot just yet.