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NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,377
So, as someone who's only on episode 5 of Umineko right now and has never seen this character before, how out of the loop does it seem like I'll be if I keep watching this series? Despite the issues I've had with it, I really do want to know what'll happen next, but I also don't want to potentially ruin Umineko for myself or be completely out of the loop for Gou.
I don't think there will be any issue. Featherine (or at least her design, since her Umineko name might not even be mentioned) is here because she has background connections to Higurashi. Her role and motivations here certainly will be entirely explained within Higurashi's context.
 
Feb 8, 2020
133
I don't think there will be any issue. Featherine (or at least her design, since her Umineko name might not even be mentioned) is here because she has background connections to Higurashi. Her role and motivations here certainly will be entirely explained within Higurashi's context.
That's good to hear then. Thanks!

I'll be looking forward to whatever madness ensues and hoping this anime will be able to avoid being a disappointment.
 

Taruranto

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,049
Satoko had already faked abuse in her backstory (against her stepfather), even if her actual arcs focused on her receiving real abuse from her uncle.
I don't see how they are even remotely the same thing, she was a stupid kid that faked her abuse and "paid the price". Her predicament in Tata/Kai was that the system failed to protect her now because of her past infraction (Which she made as a younger kid) and the whole arc was a criticism of how much abuse is often overlooked by authorities and and wrapped in red tape so CWS can't act even if they want. It's pure WTC, which is sociopolitical commentaries about society.

Then he turns it around and he writes the same arc, but this time Satoko is actually faking her abuse again which makes you feel like the people that are trying to get help are morons and the incompetent CWS guys maybe were actually in the right and we shouldn't really have helped this abuse victim because she was indeed faking it. Jeez, maybe he'll reveal Teppei was actually the good guy after all.
Tataridamashi was already a waste of time since it was Mio's script pasted on a sequel with almost zero chances, not it's a double waste of time since it basically even lost all the social commentary and political criticism for the sake of a "twist".

R07 worked with real abuse victims and put his actual life experience into Minagoroshi and Tatarigoroshi, I expected more of him.
 
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Razmos

Unshakeable One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,890
When that arc aired I did mention my concerns that if Satoko really was the mastermind then her faking the whole thing would have been horrible.

I feel like that arc should have been taken out of the story entirely, with an explanation at the end that due to Satoko's knowledge of past events and her looping powers she stopped her uncle before the abuse began. Because now it just feels icky and a pointless arc to include
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,377
I don't see how they are even remotely the same thing, she was a stupid kid that faked her abuse and "paid the price". Her predicament in Tata/Kai was that the system failed to protect her now because of her past infraction (Which she made as a younger kid) and the whole arc was a criticism of how much abuse is often overlooked by authorities and and wrapped in red tape so CWS can't act even if they want. It's pure WTC, which is sociopolitical commentaries about society.
I'm not claiming they're the same thing either though, which is why I said that her actual arcs were about real abuse. I just pointed out that it's not like he didn't use the idea before. As far as social commentary goes, yes, it kind of falls apart since it basically just becomes a game of noticing all the scene differences which pointed to the new culprit, since the core of the story wasn't changed in spite of the behind the scenes events being completely different.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
8,874
I read some wild tweets about the recent episode. Should I get back on this now? Think I'm fall behind any episode where they confronted an abusive Uncle over her or something.
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,377
Should I start from the previous episode or just skip to the best one? Without fillers.
If you really hated that arc, skip to episode 13 (the final episode of the arc) and go on from there, since it leads directly into the next story. Also, the arc that starts with ep.18 is actually a flashback taking place before anything else in Higurashi Gou (just explaining because some people seemed very confused by the transition).
 

Taruranto

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,049
I'm not claiming they're the same thing either though, which is why I said that her actual arcs were about real abuse. I just pointed out that it's not like he didn't use the idea before. As far as social commentary goes, yes, it kind of falls apart since it basically just becomes a game of noticing all the scene differences which pointed to the new culprit, since the core of the story wasn't changed in spite of the behind the scenes events being completely different.
I'm saying using the arc dedicated to criticize how society treats abuse to pull a "she was actually faking it" with an actual abuse victim is just incredibly slimy and disrespectful to the old story's themes. The old Satoko who cried wolf was basically another character altogether and R07 used that plot point to explain why the CWS had problems getting around and how the current Satoko was basically another person altogether, I don't think he never meant anything more than that (Especially given Satoko was like a 6 years old kid who didn't even know what she was doing or the consequences of her actions).
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,377
I'm saying using the arc dedicated to criticize how society treats abuse to pull a "she was actually faking it" with an actual abuse victim is just incredibly slimy and disrespectful to the old story's themes. The old Satoko who cried wolf was basically another character altogether and R07 used that plot point to explain why the CWS had problems getting around and how the current Satoko was basically another person altogether, I don't think he never meant anything more than that (Especially given Satoko was like a 6 years old kid who didn't even know what she was doing or the consequences of her actions).

Well, this Satoko is probably a different character altogether too. We haven't gotten there yet, but the fact that when Looper Satoko's identity was revealed we were left with a large smirk while she aimed a gun at her friends strongly points to her being very different from the actual 10 years old Satoko.

The point of Satoko's entire arc in Gou is probably going to come down to that in her quest to punish or fix Rika after learning the truth about her, Satoko basically became exactly like her (well, even worse), wearing a mask of her old self, while being basically someone else entirely underneath that. And in a bizarre way maybe they will actually form some kind of bond due to that once everything gets revealed.
 

Taruranto

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,049
Well, this Satoko is probably a different character altogether too. We haven't gotten there yet, but the fact that when Looper Satoko's identity was revealed we were left with a large smirk while she aimed a gun at her friends strongly points to her being very different from the actual 10 years old Satoko.

The point of Satoko's entire arc in Gou is probably going to come down to that in her quest to punish or fix Rika after learning the truth about her, Satoko basically became exactly like her (well, even worse), wearing a mask of her old self, while being basically someone else entirely underneath that. And in a bizarre way maybe they will actually form some kind of bond due to that once everything gets revealed.
The only good ending for this is if Rika bonks Satoko with the kill-looper shard and then cuts her from her life for being an incredibly toxic person.
 

PsionBolt

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,299
A huge part of why Satoko's original backstory works, even apart from the full-on social commentary of Minagoroshi, is the uncertainty and ambiguity surrounding it. We're not actually shown her false report; we only hear about it third-hand, and have to make our own judgements about her. Not only through the context of the game, either, because the game never comes down with a black-and-white answer as to how you should feel; you have to bring yourself to the text and meet it with your own personal context, like every other part of the story. After all, Higurashi is a tale about forgiving and understanding murderers -- not accepting or encouraging, sure, but absolutely much, much closer to those than any of us would ever go in real life. The point is always that context shapes people, events, and people's interpretations of events, and that creates ambiguity. Ambiguity is the most defining feature of the text, and I do believe that's deliberate. (Also something Gou very much lacks, sadly.)

...Plus, from an in-universe perspective (which I think matters far less in When They Cry than an our-universe perspective, but just for the sake of playing along here) one bit of story info we do have about pre-1982 Satoko is that she had a considerable level of Hinamizawa Syndrome. Moreover, that her specific experience of Hinamizawa Syndrome is uniquely not very murder-y*, but does involve a lot of imagined danger towards her from adults she knows. (Heck, the accepted interpretation of Tatarigoroshi's zombie Teppei mystery is that Satoko literally imagined his presence so hard that she continued to enact abuse like the bathtub scene on herself for fear of imaginary-Teppei's retaliation.) It's not at all difficult to conceive of her false report as coming from honest belief she was being abused, spurred on by ambiguously-scientific-or-magical paranoia.

(*) Aside: remember also that it's not even 100% undeniably confirmed that Satoko killed her parents. Rika believes it, we as the audience probably also believe it -- heck, I believe it myself -- but there's still room for doubt. Even when Satoko probably remembers it in Matsuribayashi, there's no flat-out guarantee anywhere to be found. You have to draw your own conclusions based on your own judgements. Nigh-on literally everything is ambiguous in Higurashi.
 

Taruranto

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,049
wiki.whentheycry.org

Vier Dreissig - When They Cry Wiki

Vier Dreissig is a character from

Who are the other two characters mentioned by Featherine?
We don't know.
Mitsuyo could be anyone, my guess would be Jestress' real name (Blonde, connected to Vier, looks a bit like Lambdadelta) while Anomalous Spinal Cord LD3105 could literally be anything but it's definitely feels like something from Ciconia.... Given Vier and Jestress seem to be connected, she may be talking about the same person using different names.

My guess is that Featherine is a bit cranky from having just woken up and mistook Satoko for some other characters.
 

Crushed

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,719
I assumed the non-Vier names were just references to countless off screen game worlds that they've gone through, not anything specific.
 

Deleted member 58141

user requested account closure
Banned
Jun 23, 2019
400
I assumed the non-Vier names were just references to countless off screen game worlds that they've gone through, not anything specific.

I agree.

My guess is that Featherine is a bit cranky from having just woken up and mistook Satoko for some other characters.

I think it's a bit more than that. "Hundred of millions of loops spent in pursuit of this meeting, yet in your moment of triumph, you've forgotten who I am entirely" implies something deeper. Since Vier's whole thing was 'translating the word of God' I think this is of a foreshadowing of what her true goals is.
 

Taruranto

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,049
I assumed the non-Vier names were just references to countless off screen game worlds that they've gone through, not anything specific.
Could it be, but Anomalous Spinal Cord LD3105 definitely sounds something from Ciconia too. I'm still holding for Ciconia being Lambdadelta's origin story.

Also Satoko's motive is some stupid shit lol Massive character assassination right here.

I think it's a bit more than that. "Hundred of million of loops spent in pursuit of this meeting, yet in your moment of triumph, you've forgotten who I am entirely" implies something deeper. Since Vier's whole thing was 'translating the word of God' I think this is of a foreshadowing of what her true goals is.

I dunno how much R07 would want to tie Ciconia and Higurashi (Beyond the usual shared universe stuff) then again after Featherine stuff everything is possible at this point I guess.
 

Deleted member 58141

user requested account closure
Banned
Jun 23, 2019
400
Also Satoko's motive is some stupid shit lol Massive character assassination right here.

It's frustrating because I can see them making sense if they allocated time to explore Satoko's reaction to immortality. I can buy it if the impossibility of death fucked up Satoko's view of the world. "Since our lives doesn't mean much and it's just a loop in an infinite series of loops is it even wrong to keep killing Rika into submission until she cancels the who St. Lucia thing" makes since from the POV of an immortal being. It's harmless. Not that much different from the pranks that are her whole thing.

But they didn't explore that aspect at all. Satoko didn't even get the chance to make sure her powers are actually real before committing suicide with Rika. If Gou was a VN I think they would've handled this aspect better.
 
OP
OP
Dust

Dust

C H A O S
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,235
Yeaaah...
57-B0729-B-2-ACB-43-E4-BBD7-B70-C8-DB2-DF95.jpg

Not sure if I like this. Almost surely this is leading to Bern and Lambda's creation plus explanation for their weird love/hate relationship. Not sure if I dig this though. Satoko turning into murder bot feels wrong, that splitting alive shit she did to Rika is really not excusable at this point, she was sane and not even LV5, what the fuck.
 

PsionBolt

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,299
You'd think she'd at least give it a loop or two of trying to actually succeed at St. Lucia. Literally every long-scale time loop story I've ever read (original Higurashi included!) has "school becomes boring and easy because they already know all the material" as a minor plot point. But nope, Satoko dum dum, can't into school, gotta murder.

This episode really, really needed to adopt that shiny new Nekodamashi technology and run through five or ten or a hundred loops in one episode. Without the element of endless repetition wearing away at one's sanity / humanity, there's exactly as much justification for Satoko's actions now as there was last episode -- namely, zero. We're barreling down the road toward "wow crazy lesbian so cool and edgy", and I thought RK07 was better than that. It's like Gou is a story written by someone whose only experience of Higurashi was reading the Wikipedia article and then watched a ten-hour USO DA + murder compilation on Youtube.


...Now, on a nitpicky, in-universe note, can I complain about the absurdity of Satoko looping into not just any random world, but another version of Matsuribayashi? So much for hundred-year miracles. Oh, you need a happy timeline? Grab one off the shelf, we got 'em. Oh, and you want the Rika in that world to somehow have the memories of being a looper, despite that making no sense at all with how her subjective experience of each fragment is supposed to be consecutive? We got that covered, too. How? Quiet, you. A witch did it, I refuse to explain!

Seriously though... Rika's memories make no sense. We're flat-out told that from her perspective, Onidamashi is a direct sequel to Matsuribayashi. Five years pass after Matsuribayashi, she dies, then Onidamashi starts, it's followed by Watadamashi, and so on. So where / when did the fragment from this episode happen, relative to Rika's memory? Her dialogue (plus, y'know, the fact that they defeat Takano) indicates the Rika in this episode has her memories at least up to Minagoroshi. So how the heck does that work, cosmologically? I say with certainty: there's not going to be a satisfying answer to that question. It really shouldn't matter -- I never asked this question about Outbreak or whatever! -- but when you take your show in this direction (dropping crossover bait, leaning on and expanding air-quotes lore at the expense of the characters and themes), these are the sorts of questions that you're asking your show to be judged on. If you fail even on these metrics, what's left?
 

kyorii

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,983
Splatlandia
It's interesting r07 was playing around with Satoko with such thoughts as far back as the originals in the VN. Someone caught this:


qr99ccqg0cj61.jpg
 

Taruranto

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,049
You'd think she'd at least give it a loop or two of trying to actually succeed at St. Lucia. Literally every long-scale time loop story I've ever read (original Higurashi included!) has "school becomes boring and easy because they already know all the material" as a minor plot point. But nope, Satoko dum dum, can't into school, gotta murder.

This episode really, really needed to adopt that shiny new Nekodamashi technology and run through five or ten or a hundred loops in one episode. Without the element of endless repetition wearing away at one's sanity / humanity, there's exactly as much justification for Satoko's actions now as there was last episode -- namely, zero. We're barreling down the road toward "wow crazy lesbian so cool and edgy", and I thought RK07 was better than that. It's like Gou is a story written by someone whose only experience of Higurashi was reading the Wikipedia article and then watched a ten-hour USO DA + murder compilation on Youtube.


...Now, on a nitpicky, in-universe note, can I complain about the absurdity of Satoko looping into not just any random world, but another version of Matsuribayashi? So much for hundred-year miracles. Oh, you need a happy timeline? Grab one off the shelf, we got 'em. Oh, and you want the Rika in that world to somehow have the memories of being a looper, despite that making no sense at all with how her subjective experience of each fragment is supposed to be consecutive? We got that covered, too. How? Quiet, you. A witch did it, I refuse to explain!

Seriously though... Rika's memories make no sense. We're flat-out told that from her perspective, Onidamashi is a direct sequel to Matsuribayashi. Five years pass after Matsuribayashi, she dies, then Onidamashi starts, it's followed by Watadamashi, and so on. So where / when did the fragment from this episode happen, relative to Rika's memory? Her dialogue (plus, y'know, the fact that they defeat Takano) indicates the Rika in this episode has her memories at least up to Minagoroshi. So how the heck does that work, cosmologically? I say with certainty: there's not going to be a satisfying answer to that question. It really shouldn't matter -- I never asked this question about Outbreak or whatever! -- but when you take your show in this direction (dropping crossover bait, leaning on and expanding air-quotes lore at the expense of the characters and themes), these are the sorts of questions that you're asking your show to be judged on. If you fail even on these metrics, what's left?

I can only guess is that she didn't switch world (After all, she didn't even die), but time either got rewound or she got placed in an earlier point of the timeline. It makes no sense for two Matsuri worlds to exist, it's a special world created by putting and linking the fragments together and of course there can't be two looper Rika and Hanyuu.


.... Or R07 didn't really care. Matsuribari isn't even a miracle world anymore, it's just another garbage world.
 
OP
OP
Dust

Dust

C H A O S
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,235
Was this Autonomous Spinal Cord Specimen LD3105 crap alluding to
Ciconia's brain jars?
I hope not.
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,377
The designation "LD3105" is pretty much confirming the Satoko/Lambda theories without outright namedropping Lambda (maybe because Lambda proper doesn't exist yet?) - LD for Lambdadelta, while 3105 is a wordplay for Satoko (3-Sa 10-To 5-Ko). Now, I don't know about Ciconia, so I can't comment on the spinal cord part.
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,377
If Takano's not Lambdadelta's pawn in Higurashi... Was she anyone's pawn?

Personally, I always disliked the idea of Takano being backed by a god-like witch when her whole plot in Higurashi seemed to be about her rejecting a traditional god in order to become one through her scientific discoveries.

Still, if you read Lambda's description of her blessing for Takano, it really doesn't actually mean anything. It's pretty much a metaphor magic like the ones in Umineko's game boards. (This is Lambda commenting on her meeting with child Takano, who asks her for a guarantee that her efforts would bear fruit)
Well, her fate also has a weak point.
Since her own endeavors are at the roots of it all, if they shake, so will her fate.
Besides, I gave the guarantee that her endeavors would definitely come true but, I did not give the guarantee for how much endeavor she'd need for it to come true.
So, I guess it means eternity could not be brought forth in her.

Also, Lambda also says this.

If she could have honestly wished "Please, turn me into a god", she'd have gotten a perfect score from me, though.
(...)
In that sense, certainly she was prudent.
But, well. ...... I won't deny that she disappointed me a bit with her excess of prudence.
-- Because I wanted her to hurry and come down until the depths I was in.

She was disappointed Takano was too prudent and didn't straight up ask for magical powers. Compare with Satoko in this episode, who when offered Featherine's power of traveling worlds goes "There's no way this is possible! And if it is, make it happen this instant!"
 

Taruranto

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,049
If Takano's not Lambdadelta's pawn in Higurashi... Was she anyone's pawn?
She definitely was Lambdadelta's piece in Higurashi, 34's memoir confirms it and the Switch Version of Umineko double confirms it by having the "girl who wanted to become a god" voiced by Takano's VAs and Lambdadelta says Takano "gave" her Bernkastel. Though I don't think you are meant to see her as simple piece on a gameboard, Lambda's gift seem to be more like a boon and she really respects people who work hard.
Beatrice herself was blessed by Lambdadelta, but she never acted as a simple piece.

If we go by Featherine's words Ciconia already happened and there is definitely a character that fits Lambdadelta's profile in Ciconia.



KPGXzjv.png

I think Umineko-Higurashi connections are cool but you are not meant to 1:1 them.
 
Nov 29, 2018
1,087
You'd think she'd at least give it a loop or two of trying to actually succeed at St. Lucia. Literally every long-scale time loop story I've ever read (original Higurashi included!) has "school becomes boring and easy because they already know all the material" as a minor plot point. But nope, Satoko dum dum, can't into school, gotta murder.

This episode really, really needed to adopt that shiny new Nekodamashi technology and run through five or ten or a hundred loops in one episode. Without the element of endless repetition wearing away at one's sanity / humanity, there's exactly as much justification for Satoko's actions now as there was last episode -- namely, zero. We're barreling down the road toward "wow crazy lesbian so cool and edgy", and I thought RK07 was better than that. It's like Gou is a story written by someone whose only experience of Higurashi was reading the Wikipedia article and then watched a ten-hour USO DA + murder compilation on Youtube.


...Now, on a nitpicky, in-universe note, can I complain about the absurdity of Satoko looping into not just any random world, but another version of Matsuribayashi? So much for hundred-year miracles. Oh, you need a happy timeline? Grab one off the shelf, we got 'em. Oh, and you want the Rika in that world to somehow have the memories of being a looper, despite that making no sense at all with how her subjective experience of each fragment is supposed to be consecutive? We got that covered, too. How? Quiet, you. A witch did it, I refuse to explain!

Seriously though... Rika's memories make no sense. We're flat-out told that from her perspective, Onidamashi is a direct sequel to Matsuribayashi. Five years pass after Matsuribayashi, she dies, then Onidamashi starts, it's followed by Watadamashi, and so on. So where / when did the fragment from this episode happen, relative to Rika's memory? Her dialogue (plus, y'know, the fact that they defeat Takano) indicates the Rika in this episode has her memories at least up to Minagoroshi. So how the heck does that work, cosmologically? I say with certainty: there's not going to be a satisfying answer to that question. It really shouldn't matter -- I never asked this question about Outbreak or whatever! -- but when you take your show in this direction (dropping crossover bait, leaning on and expanding air-quotes lore at the expense of the characters and themes), these are the sorts of questions that you're asking your show to be judged on. If you fail even on these metrics, what's left?
This is what was bothering me about the "Satoko is a looper" theory before it was revealed. Because she knows so much about how the "game" works that it made no sense for her to have only looped a handful of times. Not only did she know how to "beat" the game but also how to pre-empt and counter all of Rika's solutions for the different arcs as well. I figured that this knowledge must be coming from some kind of patron or something, and maybe it still is, but it's looking less and less likely.
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,377
Also, thinking about it, "Anomalous Spinal Cord Specimen" also could be straight up about Higurashi. They made the Hinamizawa virus treatment from Rika's spinal cord fluid and Satoko also was analyzed due to her anomalous behavior with the syndrome.

Seriously though... Rika's memories make no sense. We're flat-out told that from her perspective, Onidamashi is a direct sequel to Matsuribayashi. Five years pass after Matsuribayashi, she dies, then Onidamashi starts, it's followed by Watadamashi, and so on. So where / when did the fragment from this episode happen, relative to Rika's memory? Her dialogue (plus, y'know, the fact that they defeat Takano) indicates the Rika in this episode has her memories at least up to Minagoroshi. So how the heck does that work, cosmologically? I say with certainty: there's not going to be a satisfying answer to that question. It really shouldn't matter -- I never asked this question about Outbreak or whatever! -- but when you take your show in this direction (dropping crossover bait, leaning on and expanding air-quotes lore at the expense of the characters and themes), these are the sorts of questions that you're asking your show to be judged on. If you fail even on these metrics, what's left?

I think they're basically splitting the Rika from these new loops from the original one. The real Rika is just continuing her life in the original Matsuri fragment (who knows what happened with Satoko, maybe she just vanished or time stopped until she returns one day), while the looping Rika is actually from this Matsuri 2.0 fragment, who remembers her own loops, but doesn't know about Satoko's loop so far (or even only from some later fragment, not even this one yet), which might explain why the glitchy Hanyuu appeared. The Rika taken to the new loops is more like an echo of Rika.
 
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Taruranto

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,049
Also, thinking about it, "Anomalous Spinal Cord Specimen" also could be straight up about Higurashi. They made the Hinamizawa virus treatment from Rika's spinal cord fluid and Satoko also was analyzed due to her anomalous behavior with the syndrome.



I think they're basically splitting the Rika from these new loops from the original one. The real Rika is just continuing her life in the original Matsuri fragment (who knows what happened with Satoko, maybe she just vanished or time stopped until she returns one day), while the looping Rika is actually from this Matsuri 2.0 fragment, who remembers her own loops, but doesn't know about Satoko's loop so far (or even only from some later fragment, not even this one yet), which might explain why the glitchy Hanyuu appeared. The Rika taken to the new loops is more like an echo of Rika.
Honestly I just think Featherine rewound time, I don't think it's even narratively satisfying to get a "new" Rika, she's the true protagonist and we have followed her in her 100 years old journey. If she can create a Matsuri-2 (despite it being a special world, there is even Hanyuu there again) with a new Rika (Despite Rika being a special existence) I think it more likely she just rewound time or placed Satoko ealier in the timeline. Satoko didn't even die the first time, she just got blasted with fragments.

I assume after this they actually start to die hence they actually start to traveler through the fragments and every world becomes different.
 

Deleted member 2840

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No seriously fuck Satoko.
Yeah it was shitty that Rika kept insisting with her to go to St Lucia, but even then. Fuck Satoko
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,377
Honestly I just think Featherine rewound time, I don't think it's even narratively satisfying to get a "new" Rika, she's the true protagonist and we have followed in her 100 years old journey. If she can create a Matsuri-2 (despite it being a special world, there is even Hanyuu there again) with a new Rika (Despite Rika being a special existence) I think it more likely she just rewound time or place Satoko ealier in the timeline. Satoko didn't even die the first time, she just got blasted with fragments.

I assume after this they actually start to die hence they actually start to traveler through the fragments.
I think they will be splitting them because Gou Rika probably will become Bernkastel, so nothing good is waiting for her, while Matsuri Rika probably will still get some kind of happy epilogue.

Featherine outright called Rika "cat" this episode, which basically confirms my speculation about Gou ignoring Saikoroshi (and also the epilogue scene of Higurashi, but that one could just happen much later). Rika had some minor cat associations, but Bernkastel is the one who is outright called a cat.
 

Taruranto

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,049
I think they will be splitting them because Gou Rika probably will become Bernkastel, so nothing good is waiting for her, while Matsuri Rika probably will still get some kind of happy epilogue.

Featherine outright called Rika "cat" this episode, which basically confirms my speculation about Gou ignoring Saikoroshi (and also the epilogue scene of Higurashi, but that one could just happen much later). Rika had some minor cat associations, but Bernkastel is the one who is outright called a cat.

Even if he chooses to ignore Saikoroshi (Why? I think it fits pretty well in the way Rika handles death past Matsuri, Hanyuu is no longer around and her death was meant to be final. If we ignore Saikoroshi we need to explain what happened to Hanyuu), "Meta Rika" exists as far as Kai so I don't see why you'd need the piece RIka to become Bernkastel? Plus you have this:

In that sense, certainly she was prudent.
But, well. ...... I won't deny that she disappointed me a bit with her excess of prudence.

-- Because I wanted her to hurry and come down until the depths I was in.

That little girl tried hard, I think.
But, maybe I also overestimated her a bit in some aspects.
Unfortunately, she was far from reaching the world I hoped.
But, even so, it's alright.
Because she created a new witch and sent her to me.

Bernkastel was definitely born from Takano's game.

Both Rika and Bern are associated with cats, I don't see much difference. She also calls her a cat in the post Matsuri timeline but pre Matsuri-2 timeline anyway so she's talking about that Rika.

Unless R07 like forgot the Frederika Bernkastel scenes in Kai. Given her already destroyed Matsuri, I guess it's possible.
 
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NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,377
Even if he chose to ignore Saikoroshi (Why? I think it fits pretty well in the way Rika handles death past Matsuri, Hanyuu is no longer around and her death was meant to be final. If we ignore Saikoroshi we need to explain what happened to Hanyuu), "Meta Rika" exists as far as Kai so I don't see why you'd need the piece RIka to become Bernkastel?

At the end of Saikoroshi, they decide they'd accept Rika's next death and Rika talks about how manipulating and traveling between fragments was the realm of gods, something she'd leave behind. And yet there isn't a single word about any of that in Gou. Obviously Rika can't do anything about it since she has no choice in these loops, but they didn't even bother mentioning her and Hanyuu's previous resolution.

Also, Meta Rika/Bernkastel in Higurashi could still be just Rika. Outside of the manga, she's never explicitly shown as a separate entity. She references herself as different from Rika, but then also says that if Rika's mind breaks she'd disappear, and sometimes goes into first person when talking about Rika's recent experiences. The manga has her as a separate entity with Rika pretty much replacing the player's role in the dialogue with her, but then the anime just had Rika in that scene with no one else, so it's clear there wasn't much of a central direction for it, just different interpretations.

Plus you have this:

Bernkastel was definitely born from Takano's game.

Both Rika and Bern are associated with cats, I don't see much difference. She also calls her a cat in the post Matsuri timeline anyway so she's talking about that Rika.

Because her inner personality was essentially created by the original loops, so that's not really wrong. As far as the cat name goes, there's a big difference between Rika dressing up as a cat sometimes with Bern who has a cat tail all the time and is often referenced as cat like here.

Matsuri Rika gets referenced here as a cat, because, like I said, without Saikoroshi there was never a "I'm not Bernkastel" moment (although Bern up to this point shouldn't be specifically associated with cats anyway). I think the lack of Saikoroshi references and now this possible split timeline could strongly point to them splitting the Rikas into two, rather than having Bern emerge as some abstract manifestation (like Saikoroshi implied with Rika's speculation at the end).
 

Taruranto

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,049
At the end of Saikoroshi, they decide they'd accept Rika's next death and Rika talks about how manipulating and traveling between fragments was the realm of gods, something she'd leave behind. And yet there isn't a single word about any of that in Gou. Obviously Rika can't do anything about it since she has no choice in these loops, but they didn't even bother mentioning her and Hanyuu's previous resolution.
I really don't see it weird given how Gou handled so many stuff. I mean, Satoshi is super important to Satoko and extremely connected to the Syndrome and yet it's like he stopped existing in post Matsuri timeline, so I don't think a lack of any real Saikoroshi (Except the first ending, the scene with the bicycles) mention is odd with the kind of narrative Gou has created.

Also, Meta Rika/Bernkastel in Higurashi could still be just Rika. Outside of the manga, she's never explicitly shown as a separate entity. She references herself as different from Rika, but then also says that if Rika's mind breaks she'd disappear, and sometimes goes into first person when talking about Rika's recent experiences. The manga has her as a separate entity with Rika pretty much replacing the player's role in the dialogue with her, but then the anime just had Rika in that scene with no one else, so it's clear there wasn't much of a central direction for it, just different interpretations.

Of course, the scene in Kai is still when she's trapped in the loop so it would make sense she'd disappear. But there are more scenes once the loop is break.

She saves Takano as a kid after the story ends so I'd say she definitely her own person with her own body that exists separately form Rika. Even if we want to assume Saikoroshi as non canon (I disagree) it definitely shows R07's original intention. Both the anime and even the novel described the girl who saved Takano as a tall adult woman which Rika is not but Bernkastel is (Pre PS3 art retcon of course). Of course you also have this:

Aah, how would it be?

If Akasaka was seduced by Takano and went to the enemy side.

Ahaha, it seems interesting.

Personally, I have interest in seeing a world where that Takano is madly in love with Tomitake.

It seems to be interesting to try and play pairing Keiichi with many girls.

I love fighting scenes.

*Giggle*

Well, I wonder what will I play next. There are as many pieces as I want.

Hey, do you have some more?

What do you want to play?

Obviously it doesn't make sense for Rika to say this. Also really, before this Gou was written how the Bernkastel-Rika split was extremely clear. Rika went back being a normal girl and Bernkastel flies away to different universes and everything was extremely simple.


Because her inner personality was essentially created by the original loops, so that's not really wrong. As far as the cat name goes, there's a big difference between Rika dressing up as a cat sometimes with Bern who has a cat tail all the time and is often referenced as cat like here.

Matsuri Rika gets referenced here as a cat, because, like I said, without Saikoroshi there was never a "I'm not Bernkastel" moment (although Bern up to this point shouldn't be specifically associated with cats anyway). I think the lack of Saikoroshi references and now this possible split timeline could strongly point to them splitting the Rikas into two, rather than having Bern emerge as some abstract manifestation (like Saikoroshi implied with Rika's speculation at the end).

We'll have to agree to disagree because I always associated Rika with cats (and association that R07 of course made stronger over time due to Bernkastel), even this Gou features an arc called Nekodamashi entirely focused on Rika getting "tricked". Of course with Bern the association is stronger, but the whole thing started with Rika in the first place.

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I definitely don't feel like she's talking about anything but Rika's past experience at this point. Also I mean, she was called Satoko with 3 different names. I don't think it's weird she'd call Rika a cat give her and Bernkastel are basically two sides of the same coin.