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amc

Member
Nov 2, 2017
241
United Kingdom
A lot of people writing this off due to the OP yet many people in the thread say they aren't having the same issues and are having fun. Steam reviews seem massively positive.

Just seems like the OP doesn't get along with the game and due to having some VR dev experience and knowing about some VR IK design docs that may or may not be relevant to what Boneworks achieves is saying it's committing VR sins.

I'm sorry OP but you seem to be scare mongering when there is so much more positive reception out there. Perhaps it's just not for you and these design sins aren't so set in stone.
 

Deleted member 48828

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 21, 2018
731
Compared to the vitriol some of the people talking about this have, there doesn't seem to be more than a handful of tweets of people actually bothered by it.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
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Oct 27, 2017
24,537
A lot of people writing this off due to the OP yet many people in the thread say they aren't having the same issues and are having fun. Steam reviews seem massively positive.

Just seems like the OP doesn't get along with the game and due to having some VR dev experience and knowing about some VR IK design docs that may or may not be relevant to what Boneworks achieves is saying it's committing VR sins.

I'm sorry OP but you seem to be scare mongering when there is so much more positive reception out there. Perhaps it's just not for you and these design sins aren't so set in stone.

The people ITT saying they're "writing it off" are doing so because they've played VR games before and know this type of artificial locomotion makes them sick. They are writing it off, because they have experienced it, and know it makes them sick.

I'm not scare mongering anything, this is actually how the game works, and it makes quite a large number of people sick. The attempt to paint me as having some sort of agenda against this game, honestly me of all people on this board, is absolutely ridiculous.
 

catswaller

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,797
lol, all of the people arguing devs should not include teleportation are fucking goofballs. Teleportion and non colliding environment geometry (at least for your head) are the only way for the medium to work for any more than like, 0.5% of the population. Anybody whose shipped a vr game, and most people who have ever like, tried vr at all, know this right away.

imo, this means vr is a pretty dead end medium, but clearly people who actually like it are managing to make and enjoy "good" games with teleportation just fine.

"enthusiast" games which just give people headaches and make them sick are a stupid idea.
 
Oct 27, 2017
17,438
A lot of people writing this off due to the OP yet many people in the thread say they aren't having the same issues and are having fun. Steam reviews seem massively positive.

Just seems like the OP doesn't get along with the game and due to having some VR dev experience and knowing about some VR IK design docs that may or may not be relevant to what Boneworks achieves is saying it's committing VR sins.

I'm sorry OP but you seem to be scare mongering when there is so much more positive reception out there. Perhaps it's just not for you and these design sins aren't so set in stone.
I've seen a bunch of people on Twitter and Reddit who have been made sick by the game, including people who "have their VR legs." It's not just OP, who incidentally is like the biggest VR fan on this forum...
 

JigglesBunny

Prophet of Truth
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
31,101
Chicago
Yeah, it's a bad fucking move to omit that stuff for people who need it. I love the vomit comet experiences as my VR legs have been strong for years now and I don't have any sort of motion sickness but I know that I'm in the tiniest minority there. They need to get those options in, pronto.
 

amc

Member
Nov 2, 2017
241
United Kingdom
The people ITT saying they're "writing it off" are doing so because they've played VR games before and know this type of artificial locomotion makes them sick. They are writing it off, because they have experienced it, and know it makes them sick.

I'm not scare mongering anything, this is actually how the game works, and it makes quite a large number of people sick. The attempt to paint me as having some sort of agenda against this game, honestly me of all people on this board, is absolutely ridiculous.
Yet you seem to be the only one writing it off who has played the game in THIS thread and going OUTSIDE this thread for other opinions of people who have played the game they don't match yours bar a few tweets.
 

Raccoon

Member
May 31, 2019
15,896
I can't believe that anyone on this board is left that hasn't realized that starting a fight with krejlooc about low level graphics, valve, or especially vr will end up tired, ragged, and defeated

edit: humiliated too, can't forget humiliated
 

BaconHat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,098
A lot of people writing this off due to the OP yet many people in the thread say they aren't having the same issues and are having fun. Steam reviews seem massively positive.

Just seems like the OP doesn't get along with the game and due to having some VR dev experience and knowing about some VR IK design docs that may or may not be relevant to what Boneworks achieves is saying it's committing VR sins.

I'm sorry OP but you seem to be scare mongering when there is so much more positive reception out there. Perhaps it's just not for you and these design sins aren't so set in stone.
Considering op is possibly the poster the most well known for vr dev on this forum, saying that he is scaremongering on vr is quite weird tbh.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 12790

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Oct 27, 2017
24,537
Yet you seem to be the only one writing it off who has played the game in THIS thread and going OUTSIDE this thread for other opinions they don't match yours bar a few tweets.

Opinions like "teleportation has fallen off" which is demonstrably false? Opinions like "I didn't get sick, so they shouldn't provide accessibility options as a baseline?"

My stance is very clearly that games should cater to everyone. The "opinions" I'm going against are those saying that those who get sick somehow do not count.
 

sleepnaught

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,538
All the reports of motion sickness in the steam forums has left me pretty disappointed. I hope this doesn't become an issue with HL:Alyx too. Really thinking of holding off on buying the Index now.
 

Polynaut

Member
Oct 27, 2017
697
Yet you seem to be the only one writing it off who has played the game in THIS thread and going OUTSIDE this thread for other opinions they don't match yours bar a few tweets.
I mean... people are getting sick from this game. I'm one of them. OP is just pointing out that there are several things the devs could do to help with that, including adding some locomotion options that are common in the medium. Some of those options may even give a much better experience with the game without really compromising anything (though this may be a matter of opinion?)

The only reason a lot of people that own the game aren't writing it off completely despite getting sick from it is because its doing some really cool things otherwise.
 

Mad_Rhetoric

Banned
May 7, 2019
3,466
OK, so at first plaything this game made me feel sick pretty fast BUT I have to say that playing while sitting and changing the head turning to snap made it a LOT better. This will be a great way to "train" for HLA. Also gun mechanics are amazing.
 

Deleted member 48828

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 21, 2018
731
Looks like one of the devs replied to the second tweet and talks about patching it, so it doesn't look like that was intentional.
 

SleepSmasher

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,094
Australia
The attempt to paint me as having some sort of agenda against this game, honestly me of all people on this board, is absolutely ridiculous.
As a side note: nothing against your original post and concerns, they're mostly valid and well founded.

However, I know you blocked me because of a thread from more than a year ago due to being unable to handle constructive criticism or argue in good terms (and see, I didn't block you) but the fact you're talking about yourself as someone who this entire forum should somehow know, speaks volumes about entitlement.
 

RCSI

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
1,838
I'm sorry OP but you seem to be scare mongering when there is so much more positive reception out there. Perhaps it's just not for you and these design sins aren't so set in stone.

You don't want to present these design sins to new VR players who may have purchased a VR headset these past few weeks. Implementing comfort designs should become mandatory for new VR games going forward. I get what Boneworks was going for, but future VR games need to include comfort options as part of the basic package.
 
OP
OP

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Looks like one of the devs replied to the second tweet and talks about patching it, so it doesn't look like that was intentional.

I don't think making people sick is ever intentional, it certainly shouldn't be. But to avoid that, there are a ground set of rules that have been pretty quickly established that many games follow. Boneworks outright doesn't follow many of them right now, which is the point. These are problems all VR devs faced 5 years ago, it's pretty nuts that they didn't consider these problems when they are well known in the industry.

and, because it bares repeating, those rules are NOT at odds with those who want artificial locomotion, or IK. I think IK for VR in general is whatever, but I was still hyped about Boneworks when all I thought was that it'd be a minor inconvience. When the implementation actually makes people sick is when it becomes a real problem. And the way it makes people sick, is something that has been well understood for years at this point.
 

amc

Member
Nov 2, 2017
241
United Kingdom
Considering op is possibly the poster the most well known for vr dev on this forum, saying that he is scaremongering on vr is quite weird tbh.
Weird. Nah not weird, just seeing the vast majority of people having a positive experience, several in this very thread and many, many more over on Steam compared to the OP. When does having some VR dev experience negate a majority opinion.
 

catswaller

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,797
Weird. Nah not weird, just seeing the vast majority of people having a positive experience, several in this very thread and many, many more over on Steam compared to the OP. When does having some VR dev experience negate a majority opinion.


VR is a weirdo enthusiast niche, suppressing & ignoring valid concerns is the norm for anything that requires a lot of excitement and $1500 to get into.

People getting sick if you jerk a camera attached to their damn head around is a non negotiable reality not something you can like, have positive impressions in a forum post to dispute.
 
OP
OP

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Weird. Nah not weird, just seeing the vast majority of people having a positive experience, several in this very thread and many, many more over on Steam compared to the OP. When does having some VR dev experience negate a majority opinion.

Because my experience tells me that people who get sick from this is NOT a minority. Like, I get that you don't recognize the names I quoted in those tweets but those aren't randos. Those are pretty much many of the voices of the VR industry. If you'd like, I could post michael abrash lectures about the actual science of why this stuff makes you sick. This isn't someone's opinion, there is a lot of well funded research behind this.
 

Deleted member 1722

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
1,058
I think it's great a new game is going against convention and norms in an attempt to achieve something new. The medium is still very new. What rules we think of as established are anything but.
 
OP
OP

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As a side note: nothing against your original post and concerns, they're mostly valid and well founded.

However, I know you blocked me because of a thread from more than a year ago due to being unable to handle constructive criticism or argue in good terms (and see, I didn't block you) but the fact you're talking about yourself as someone who this entire forum should somehow know, speaks volumes about entitlement.

I didn't block you, get over yourself.
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
Thanks for the tip, Krejlooc. I'll avoid.

Windlands (a probably far less offensive game in this regard) made me sick for literally 2 days after an hour session with it. Thank God for Steam refunds. Games with heavy movement and no teleport or platform to stand on or cockpit to sit in are a haaaaaaaaard nope for me.
 

amc

Member
Nov 2, 2017
241
United Kingdom
VR is a weirdo enthusiast niche, suppressing & ignoring valid concerns is the norm for anything that requires a lot of excitement and $1500 to get into.

People getting sick if you jerk a camera attached to their damn head around is a non negotiable reality not something you can like, have positive impressions in a forum post to dispute.
What. I'm not claiming people won't feel any motion sickness. Where did I say that? Of course some people will feel motion sick, the same with every other VR game there is always a portion of players who will feel sick. Perhaps the proportion will be higher with this game due to its IK.

I'm more addressing the overally negative OP talking about sins and basically saying the game is a bust when the majority don't see it that way. Yes different accommodating motion options is always preferable in almost all VR games and if that was all the OP whaled on I'd have not bothered posting but the OP basically said the game is a complete bust as well as pointing out the lack of motion options.
 

plagiarize

Eating crackers
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,511
Cape Cod, MA
Weird. Nah not weird, just seeing the vast majority of people having a positive experience, several in this very thread and many, many more over on Steam compared to the OP. When does having some VR dev experience negate a majority opinion.
There are valid reasons most VR games handle the players arms or body differently to BONEWORKS, and they are indeed based on years of prototyping and numerous demos and games.

Avoiding things that trigger motion sickness in a portion of your potential audience is a good design goal, because sim sickness is fucking rough lie down on a couch for hours business. It's the kind of thing that makes people never want to put on a VR headset ever again. I've seen it first hand.

Krej is disappointed that a game ignored those lessons and did something that made them *physically sick*. This isn't simple 'not your kind of thing' business, and Krej has done far more than just reading IK docs as you put it.

I admire what BONEWORKS is trying to do, but if it doesn't offer snap turning I won't be able to enjoy it on a tethered setup. Three points isn't enough to simulate an entire body.

If the player has to pantomime along with the IK player model in game, rather than the opposite, that goes directly against what BONEWORKS promised if you ask me.
 

Cleve

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,022
I've played maybe 60 hours of Skyrim VR with smooth locomotion on without issue, but the climbing in boneworks does not feel good at all. Getting stuck on the ik and having my torso/fov move around as a result feels really bad.
 

catswaller

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,797
What. I'm not claiming people won't feel any motion sickness. Where did I say that? Of course some people will feel motion sick, the same with every other VR game there is always a portion of players who will feel sick. Perhaps the proportion will be higher with this game due to its IK.

I'm more addressing the overally negative OP talking about sins and basically saying the game is a bust when the majority don't see it that way. Yes different accommodating motion options is always preferable in almost all VR games and if that was all the OP whaled on I'd have not bothered posting but the OP basically said the game is a complete bust as well as pointing out the lack of motion options.

op is saying it's a bust because of those issues. If you agree they exist, what's wrong with the thread?
 

ss_lemonade

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,651
Yet you seem to be the only one writing it off who has played the game in THIS thread and going OUTSIDE this thread for other opinions of people who have played the game they don't match yours bar a few tweets.
The videos in the OP show exactly the things that make me nauseous in VR games. Actually, they look even worse with all that bobbing and unintentional movement
 
OP
OP

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What. I'm not claiming people won't feel any motion sickness. Where did I say that? Of course some people will feel motion sick, the same with every other VR game there is always a portion of players who will feel sick. Perhaps the proportion will be higher with this game due to its IK.

I'm more addressing the overally negative OP talking about sins and basically saying the game is a bust when the majority don't see it that way. Yes different accommodating motion options is always preferable in almost all VR games and if that was all the OP whaled on I'd have not bothered posting but the OP basically said the game is a complete bust as well as pointing out the lack of motion options.

"Sins" is industry jargon, because early codifying documentation is known as a "bible" in the industry. Going against "the bible" is known as a "sin" in development circles. The topic title isn't me making a commentary on the game being a bust -- something I never said. It means a very clear thing to people who actually work in the industry, and is a terminology widely used among developers.

I work in VR gamedev, I've had a VR company since 2014. VR is actually my primary industry.
 

Flandy

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,445
I don't tend to get VR sick and can handle smooth locomotion and smooth turning just fine. I'm able to play games like Pavlov and Skyrim VR for 3+ hours without any issue at all.

The way this games physics interact with your body made me pretty uncomfortable. I stopped playing after 90 minutes as soon as I got to the streets in the game. I was uncomfortable well before that but wanted to find a good stopping point first

I stopped playing like 20 minutes ago and still feel somewhat off. I really wish objects didnt push you around. This won't stop me from pushing through it but I can definitely see what Krejlooc is talking about
 

SleepSmasher

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,094
Australia
I didn't block you, get over yourself.
Well, good to know then, I've quoted you at least 5 times in different threads and never got a single reply. I know you can choose not to, but the timing was too convenient.

Anyway, moving on - my understanding is that the devs will definitely patch in comfort features, they're too passionate and this title has become too big for them to ignore major complaints.
 
OP
OP

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I admire what BONEWORKS is trying to do, but if it doesn't offer snap turning I won't be able to enjoy it on a tethered setup. Three points isn't enough to simulate an entire body.

It offers snap movement, it doesn't offer teleportation, however. I have seen many people first hand who cannot handle snap rotation, however.

But that's besides the point, there are many games that don't offer teleportation that I don't talk about. The primary concern here is the physics driven IK, which is implemented in a very wrong way.
 

amc

Member
Nov 2, 2017
241
United Kingdom
op is saying it's a bust because of those issues. If you agree they exist, what's wrong with the thread?
The OP and his further posts go further than motion sickness being the only problem. And again who said there was anything wrong with the thread lol? I posted that for a game that's a bust there sure seems a lot of positive feedback about that counterpoints the OP. It was a counterpoint not a call out of invalidation of the thread.
 

Cyanity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,345
So does the game present potential new VR owners with any warnings over the locomotion present within on startup? Or does it drop you right in? Because it'd be a shame if a bunch of new HMD owners experience visceral simulation sickness from their first major VR title.

Even though I believe they will fix some of the issues moving forward, this is a bad foot forward for an industry that just had a sudden resurgence in the public mindset. HL:Alyx created a wave of good will. I just hope that Boneworks' launch issues don't act like a jetty to that wave.

although the Half Life Alyx trailer at TGA this week will probably completely supplant any negative press Boneworks might get tbqh
 
OP
OP

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The OP and his further posts go further than motion sickness being the only problem. And again who said there was anything wrong with the thread lol? I posted that for a game that's a bust there sure seems a lot of positive feedback about that counterpoints the OP. It was a counterpoint not a call out of invalidation of the opening post.

The game came out less than 12 hours ago. Those playing are the type of people who spend $1500 on a VR rig before christmas and download VR games on day 1. And even with that type of crowd, one who is inherently primed to play hardcore VR games, I'm still seeing an abnormally high amount of talk of people getting sick. Most VR games don't have this kind of chatter in the VR sphere, especially not very high profile VR games. That presents a huge problem for someone with actual financial interest in the industry.

VR is currently surging. This game is currently the top seller on steam. It's not a good thing for other developers when the first impression a lot of new faces will have on Christmas day for their super expensive new toys is something that is known to make a large number of people sick.
 
Oct 27, 2017
17,438
So does the game present potential new VR owners with any warnings over the locomotion present within on startup? Or does it drop you right in? Because it'd be a shame if a bunch of new HMD owners experience visceral simulation sickness from their first major VR title.

Even though I believe they will fix some of the issues moving forward, this is a bad foot forward for an industry that just had a sudden resurgence in the public mindset. HL:Alyx created a wave of good will. I just hope that Boneworks' launch issues don't act like a jetty to that wave.

although the Half Life Alyx trailer at TGA this week will probably completely supplant any negative press Boneworks might get tbqh
This is what's quite troubling about this. There are a lot of people who bought headsets because of Alyx and this will be their first game.
 
OP
OP

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For people questioning my "motives" regarding this game, I posted this just a few weeks ago:

When the Vive first launched, and thus was everybody's first experience with things like Roomscale positional tracking, one of the very first things released was a demo of a game called budget cuts. It became a sort of VR right of passage to experience a common situation in the game:

at one point in the demo, you need to crawl into the space above a drop-down ceiling to move from one room to another. When you get into the ceiling, the game makes you actually crawl on the floor -- if you stand up you are technically "going through" the roof and thus the game blacks out and doesn't let you proceed until you're physically on the ground. You crawl forward to the other room, where the exit is a tile that is removed that allows you to drop down into the room. But, budget cuts is a stealth action game, kinda like splinter cell or MGS (except cartoony, and with portal guns), so naturally your first reaction is to peek down below the tile into the room to make sure there are no robot guards in the way.

And literally every single time I saw someone do this demo, they wound up lightly slamming their face into the ground, because they were already on the floor, and expected to be able to peak their head down into a hole on the ground that didn't actually exist. Nobody gets hurt doing this, mind you, it's like a light tap, but it's a moment that sticks with you because, holy shit, you were totally convinced that was a real hole, and that was a real natural reaction. You didn't think about it, you just did it, because VR feels 100% natural to you. It's one of the best moments this entire generation, I guarantee you someone will chime in to say they did this when they got their headset ITT.

My dad is 70 years old, he hasn't really played video games since Doom and Sim City 2000 on our PC way back in the mid 90's. Back in the 80's he used to play video games a lot, he had a 2600, and then an intellivision, and played my Sega Master System and Genesis with me frequently. But once controllers and games started having 8+ buttons, two thumbsticks, a d-pad, plus home, start, and menu buttons, and 4 triggers - two analog, two digital, etc -- it became too much for him. He can't play video games anymore, they're just too complex and confusing for him.

He has an HTC vive and Oculus Rift, however, and frequently plays VR games. He does so, because VR controls make sense to him, it's natural. They're the most intuitive controls he's ever used. When you go to open a door in a game, you don't need to remember which button combinations make the door open. You just reach out with your real hand, grab the knob, and twist, like you do a thousand times a day IRL. When you want to aim down your scope in a gun, you don't need to remember which trigger to hold to bring it close, which button to press to hold your breath, which other trigger to hold to fire the gun, which thumbstick to move to change your aim, etc. Instead, you just pull your gun close to your face with your real hands, actually literally hold your breath, and pull the only trigger on your index finger.

VR Controls work so, so well. When done right, they are incomparable to conventional controls, not just in their utility (there are TONS of things you can do in VR that are outright impossible with a conventional controller), but also their ease of use. You don't need a tutorial to learn how to aim in VR, you already know how. The only things that need a tutorial are locomotion, as there are 3 major forms of locomotion currently in VR, and even then, once you pick them up, you can move from game to game as the entire industry has basically settled on those locomotion options.

Regarding interactions in HL:A - nobody is doing VR like valve yet, they are the absolutely leaders in VR game development. Their flat structure allowed them 6 years of non-committal experimentation. Talking to many of their VR developers, just having half a decade to play around with concepts without needing to ship a viable game in that time was a godsend. It let them experiment and figure out what works, and what doesn't. The Lab, for example, was their first example of their tests after 3 years, that was already 3 years ago. Expect HL:A to blow away any and all video game interactions you've ever experienced. Boneworks is super, super cool, definitely my most anticipated game this year, but I don't know how they can compete with what Valve has cooking.

It brings me absolutely no joy to point out that it's got such a flaw, especially in light of how many drive by posts about vr being a "puke factory" I see in other VR threads.
 

Cyanity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,345
For people questioning my "motives" regarding this game, I posted this just a few weeks ago:



It brings me absolutely no joy to point out that it's got such a flaw, especially in light of how many drive by posts about vr being a "puke factory" I see in other VR threads.
Congrats, you have me looking for clips of people slamming their face on the ground while playing Budget cuts (which I can't find!!). Please for the love of god, someone make a supercut compilation of people doing this in VR. It'd probably make for good advertisement, too.
 
Oct 27, 2017
17,438
Congrats, you have me looking for clips of people slamming their face on the ground while playing Budget cuts (which I can't find!!). Please for the love of god, someone make a supercut compilation of people doing this in VR. It'd probably make for good advertisement, too.
Funnily enough for the subject of this thread, the first time I saw that phenomenon was in a Node video.
 

xeroborn55

Member
Oct 27, 2017
952
i was really excited for this game but reading early impressions of exactly the problems outlined in this thread made me skip it. I'm prone to motion sickness and have never actually vomited from VR but have gotten severely nauseous. Comfort settings and multiple locomotion options are a requirement, and you see that's what valve has in HLA.

I think OP's (valid) point is that a game like this is bad for the VR industry as a whole. its a bad look. saying a game like this is for a specific audience that can stomach it is just so mind boggling to me. Or that it was an artistic choice. WTF? janky movement that makes some percentage of your audience sick was a design/artistic choice? thats ridiculous.

edit: this is off-topic for this thread, but i find the marketing for this game on the node channel to be in very poor taste. I fell down the rabbit hold of researching that channel and where it came from and Brandon Laatsch and his game company and was honestly very taken aback when i realized that he was one of the founders of that node channel. Some of the boneworks videos on node do not make that clear, they seem like regular 'demos' a developer will do for a game, not what is essentially an ad.
 

samred

Amico fun conversationalist
Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,585
Seattle, WA
the game opens with a note saying "expert players only." in my opinion, the way it's written reads more as a "git gud" declaration than a firm insistence that Boneworks is so very far outside the baseline "comfortable" VR experience you can expect in most games and apps of the past 18 months. soooooo. I'll be writing about this for Ars soon enough...
 

TaterTots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,963
WMR still not working with the game I'm reading. Did they not test it on a WMR set before release? I'd imagine they have some since WMR is listed as being supported. Looks like a lot of folks jumped on that O+ sale from all the threads I'm jumping around in lol.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP

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24,537
the game opens with a note saying "expert players only." in my opinion, the way it's written reads more as a "git gud" declaration than a firm insistence that Boneworks is so very far outside the baseline "comfortable" VR experience you can expect in most games and apps of the past 18 months. soooooo. I'll be writing about this for Ars soon enough...

I have to say that rubs me the wrong way, too. Along with the chatter about teleportation being for "tutorials" or beginners, people "growing" out of it. That's nonsense. There are inherent biological factors involved in these things that make people sick. For many people, it's not something you can overcome. And I've seen people actually try and fail.

What those people walk away thinking is that VR is not a medium for them. That kind of stuff hurts the budding industry. Take for example one of my best friends, I gave him a VR headset last weekend as a gift so he could preorder half life alyx, because I have so many and he was really bummed out that he didn't have a headset and couldn't get the game. The last time he'd tried VR was when he was at my place playing my HL2VR with my razor hydras and the DK1. His very first question was "does VR still make you sick?" And this is someone who is a very close friend of mine, who knows about my business. It's absolutely a concern. I didn't assuage him by saying that he would eventually overcome his sickness, I assauged him by telling him about the comfort options available that worked fundamentally differently than what made him sick before. And he was much more receptive to the headset after hearing about those options. Telling him to "git gud" would have just turned him away.
 

Cyanity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,345
i was really excited for this game but reading early impressions of exactly the problems outlined in this thread made me skip it. I'm prone to motion sickness and have never actually vomited from VR but have gotten severely nauseous. Comfort settings and multiple locomotion options are a requirement, and you see that's what valve has in HLA.

I think OP's (valid) point is that a game like this is bad for the VR industry as a whole. its a bad look. saying a game like this is for a specific audience that can stomach it is just so mind boggling to me. Or that it was an artistic choice. WTF? janky movement that makes some percentage of your audience sick was a design/artistic choice? thats ridiculous.

I think the sad thing here is that the game was basically created by post-college programmers. They need more writers and artists on the team to tell the programmers when they've gone too far. But afaik, the person running everything, Brandon Laatsch, has expressed that he prefers doing small scale indie stuff over moving to AA or AAA production. This is (supposedly) why Valve has yet to absorb SL:Z despite working with them for years. And is most likely why his studio hasn't significantly increased in size over the past couple years.

Time will tell whether the financial success of Boneworks will motivate SL:Z to grow as a company. But if Boneworks had to walk so that Half Life: Alyx could fly, so be it.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,956
the game opens with a note saying "expert players only." in my opinion, the way it's written reads more as a "git gud" declaration than a firm insistence that Boneworks is so very far outside the baseline "comfortable" VR experience you can expect in most games and apps of the past 18 months. soooooo. I'll be writing about this for Ars soon enough...

Relatedly, some of the posts here did remind me of the whole "Dark Souls shouldn't have an easy mode" conversation, but I'm not entirely sure that's on purpose. :/