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Highly anticipated VR title Boneworks is a collection of VR sins
- Thread starter Deleted member 12790
- Start date
AirCar did it for me my first time playing. But it also helped me get a grip on it and be able to adjust. Try that shit out it's awesome. I wish they'd make more if it and just add some options to have some faster cars but I don't think the guy who made it ever did anything further with the demo.
IK elbows pushing the player around, what the heck? That sure sounds like a glitch or a massive oversight. No reason to ever do that in a VR game.
The climbing looks pretty bad/buggy but in general I don't think physicality is a bad thing. Granted I haven't tried the game for myself yet (still at work), but plan on jumping in tonight, so far it looks like besides climbing I'm not seeing much that is truly bad. One problem players seem to be running into is they are trying to simulate weight kind of like Gorn and Blade+Sorcery so the IK model on your character will move slower than your hands move in real life, because your in game character cannot move a giant sledgehammer, or a body, etc as fast as people want to move. I plan on being very deliberate and think about the weight and heft of what action I'm doing at any given time.
I am fine with games not pushing for comfort options if it's not in service of their vision.
I am fine with games not pushing for comfort options if it's not in service of their vision.
Your personal playspace? I played in a 3x3/4x4 space fine but im not one that moves around physically in VR.
OP
OP
teleportation is the standard form of locomotion in VR. Nearly all VR games use it. It hasn't fallen out of favor at all, it's more prevalent than ever.
I know this will already make me sick if it comes to PSVR. Resident Evil 7 made me want to die, even after multiple attempts. Most VR games are the same, some of the PSVR games in Playstation Worlds and Rez were okay, but otherwise it's never that great. It's a 15-20 min at a time thing. It sucks buying PSVR before I knew that.
I am tempted to buy this to see how it affects me. I've only a few hours in VR so far but nothing has made me feel sick yet. I get a little "woah this is weird" when walking in Skyrim without teleport on but not in a 'i am going to be sick' feeling. It's weird that they made it this way without other choices for movement.
You haven't played recent Oculus games then. The Echo games are the flagship IP for Oculus and they do exactly this pushback which most people don't find to be an issue, and they do IK which most people don't find to be an issue, and they have lots of fast motion, which most people don't find to be an issue.
Just because StressLevelZero has issues with their IK does not mean it's not doable. It absolutely is, and while not perfect, it can still be done pretty well.
I expect Boneworks will recieve updates to help fix some of these issues.
Yes, I have a 10x12 space but with a low ceiling. I like to walk around if I can.
I haven't had any issues personally. Honestly I'm really surprised at how not sick I've gotten. I put in about 5 to 6 hours - with maybe an hour break for a decently large lunch in between, and came through just fine.
I was kind of shocked, as I don't really put all that much time in with VR. I took to it really well.
I was kind of shocked, as I don't really put all that much time in with VR. I took to it really well.
OP
OP
A) Lone echo doesn't feature artificial locomotion or lateral rotation, all locomotion in Lone Echo is a result of 1:1 positional tracking of limbs, or performs upon a linear vector when you push off of a surface, which is very much NOT the same thing being discussed. You know, like I detailed in this very topic. Clearly I haven't played that game
B) As I have said before, citing Lone Echo as a specific example, Lone Echo's IK is different from gun-based IK because all motions in the game that require a line of sight from far away. The only times in Lone Echo that you are required to use some sort of projectile, it's either up close with your laser finger, which naturally moves the arm out of your way as it's impossible to bend in front of your vantage point, or it's broad throwing motions like with the discuses, where the imprecise IK is not a problem
C) I never said "it's not doable."
Not anymore, tp locomotion has clearly been falling out of favor between Boneworks and the new Medal of Honor not even featuring teleportation at all, two of the biggest VR games there has even been. It was a rightful concern when no one was used to VR, but now that people have had headsets for a few years people are more comfortable with moving in different ways, I would expect it to continue being phased out as games go forward, as it does definitely get in the way of level design when you can just bypass areas/enemies with a teleport feature.
I guess I'm glad Im not bothered by what they've done, had fun climbing on the monkey bars.
They DO have a warning of "this is for advanced VR players only", and I guess these issues are largely what they've been about.
It's weird because a week and a half ago I'd have been puking right there with the best of em :V
Used Advanced VR settings to set up always on boundaries and that helped me get past the nausea zone.
They DO have a warning of "this is for advanced VR players only", and I guess these issues are largely what they've been about.
It's weird because a week and a half ago I'd have been puking right there with the best of em :V
Used Advanced VR settings to set up always on boundaries and that helped me get past the nausea zone.
Lone Echo goes 'Chicken Arms' often with anything behind the back. It doesn't really matter because they just clip thru things, but it happens.
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lol
Teleportation is the default locomotion mechanic for UE4 and Unity VR projects. When you begin a VR project with those engines, they default to teleportation. It's not phased out at all, it's literally the default standard.
OP
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...the point was that when you need line of sight in Lone Echo, the IK cannot "go chicken arms" by design. The times when it goes "chicken arms" don't matter, as the game never has you aiming a distance away where IK can screw you up. Which is in contrast to a game with gunplay, where you're going to be spending most of your time aiming at remote targets in ways where IK will very often go "chicken arms."
Lone Echo facilitates IK, by not presenting any of the situations where IK would be a problem, which influences how the game works on a moment to moment basis.
Have you tried Beat Saber, Astro Bot, Moss, etc? I haven't played Astro Bot(no PSVR) but I'm always hearing good things. I do agree with the 15-20 min at a time thing. Bought Beat Saber today and I've been playing in 20 min bursts here and there. It's really fun so far, but I have it in the back of my mind that Oculus and HTC say to play 30 mins at a time and take a 10-15 min break. There are other great VR games like Lone Echo that stand out, but that's PC only I think.
If this is correct, this seems a fundamentally flawed progression - basically, the early-adopters and current buyers will have got used to movement in a way that later consumers of the technology won't have, and those people will thus suffer from a lack of a learning curve in movement.
Like saying 18 year olds don't have any problem with differential equations, so let's junk how to explain the basic concepts and just drop everyone who is currently below 18 straight into higher maths.
(Edit: wife is a maths teacher, so that was the first analogy I thought of)
Definitely jank to it and I do think it's a bit aggressive about influencing the camera, but I have an iron stomach apparently and haven't had any motion sickness issues. I am surprised there aren't ANY comfort options.
Lone Echo is probably my favorites so far, but I find the arms to be jarring. They don't match the position of my actual arms at all and there have been times they get contorted in game. Only time I got dizzy was the first time I played it. Pushed myself out of the seat super hard and went flying across the room. Made me dizzy for a second lol. No issues since tho.
Definitely prefer the floaty hands so far. I'm hoping this is something that can be an option in the future. Leave it up to the player, but that's probably a shit ton of work.
OP
OP
It's not correct at all, luckily. The trend is not at all to forgo teleportation, the trend is to provide as many locomotion options as possible. The dude is citing a game that people are very surprised doesn't have any comfort settings at all, and another game that people have expressed concern about regarding the lack of teleportation.
I don't think I've played a single game that uses "old school" teleportation outside of the early Vive titles. Certainly a vast majority of contemporary titles are designed for and defaulting to smooth locomotion (though teleportation is often an accessibility option), or are just avoiding the issue all together with stationary or on-rails experiences. Personally I wish every VR game would ape Echo Arena and replace every genre with a zero G equivalent.
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Game feels fine and plays great for the most part for me, and my VR legs aren't even that good. Yes, there are problems like the body simulation but it isn't an issue most of the time and OP seems to be exacerbating it.
I'm on the minority that doesn't have a single problem with full locomotion in VR. Even playing through Virtual Desktop and it's minor latency (which I can totally perceive), I don't get sick.
With that said...I hate the full body on this game as I expected I'd hate. It's so cluncky.
With that said...I hate the full body on this game as I expected I'd hate. It's so cluncky.
More like game devs early on weren't sure if consumers would ever be comfortable with movements other than teleportation, early on they weren't even sure if people would want to perform complicated movements to reload and cock a gun, but now after seeing games like pavlov and onward take off, this has suddenly become the default for shooters when it might have been a big ask for the average VR consumer 3 years ago, smooth locomotion becoming the norm is no different, they were testing the waters before to see what people were comfortable with, they got the data and the feedback and now future games are reflecting what people are comfortable with and are asking for.
That seems kind of stunning, considering how hyped this game has been. I guess I will be skipping this one.
That's good. I get crazy motion sickness on the local buses here, and my wife gets sick on trains - I'd rather we weren't locked-out of future VR purchasing because of silly reasons.
Also, all the people saying they're not getting sick is great, but is the VR equivalent of "This game works fine on my PC". Lowest-common-denominator comfort should be the allowed-for standard, even if the default setting is "hardcore". To not include comfort options in this ("disable body physics", "disable IK") is a weird design philosophy, especially when you think of how many times people complain about lack of graphics options or subtitles in non-VR games. It's nice that so many people here aren't having problems, but that's besides the point.
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But developers taking "consumers" as a single monolithic entity is just going to push the accepted baseline up, and move VR out of reach for a portion of the potential buying public. I mean, isn't it just like saying "Well, most people prefer to use mouse+keyboard on PC, so let's just develop for that, and fuck gamepads"?
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The ones that knocked me out in that sense were the demos of RIGS and DriveClub VR, as well as Scavengers Odyssey in Playstation Worlds.
It also wasn't super easy to get used to Resident Evil 7 after turning off the comfort options at first, but I had to, the snap turning was completely taking me out of the experience. Nowadays I am 100% fine with it, so I'm curious to know if the other games would still knock me on my ass, DriveClub was especially nasty on my stomach, felt like complete trash after less than 5 minutes with it.
One of said games is the highest budget VR game in history (outside of presumably, Alyx), and the other is one of the most hyped in the medium, you can't really just shrug that these are "just a couple of games" these are two of the highest profile games for the platform that there has ever been and they are willingly ignoring what you say is the default method of movement of VR. It's just not anymore. I'm not saying there's a good reason for it not appearing, it should for people who need that kind of movement, but it's certainly not the default anymore.
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This really makes it sound like you don't play the vast majority of titles released for VR, or keep up with the medium. It's really weird that you seem to think that 2 titles constitutes a trend, when hundreds of VR titles have released this year alone.
And two is literally "a couple."
You should check back for a dev update in a week or two. I guarantee they'll listen to players and add some qol locomotion options. The lead programmer on this game is a huge workaholic who probably won't let people stay disappointed for long.
Pavlov VR is basically VR Counter Strike and it's pretty popular.
I was definitely getting some motion sickness from some of the issues described in the OP. I'm standing near a wall, and my digital elbow (or some other part of me) touches the wall, nudging me slightly to the left even though I didn't move in real life or using the joy stick. The constant slight shifts and sways are killer. It's a really strange decision, and the one negative I've seen so far (IMO).
But the game is good otherwise, and has some really cool things going on. I would love it if they patched out the body and just let me have two floating hands, and then darkened the screen if I put my head in a wall.
But the game is good otherwise, and has some really cool things going on. I would love it if they patched out the body and just let me have two floating hands, and then darkened the screen if I put my head in a wall.
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I'm glad the developers were able to make the game they wanted to make and didn't have to waste time including every accessibility option that the OP has arbitrarily decided is now standard in VR.
This thread seems so disingenuous, every opinion of the OP is presented as fact and industry standard when we're really talking about conscious choices developers can make to focus on accessibility or not. Many in this thread and elsewhere are enjoying the game and will continue to, even if OP insists on suggesting those who disagree with them sound like
they "don't follow VR".
This thread seems so disingenuous, every opinion of the OP is presented as fact and industry standard when we're really talking about conscious choices developers can make to focus on accessibility or not. Many in this thread and elsewhere are enjoying the game and will continue to, even if OP insists on suggesting those who disagree with them sound like
they "don't follow VR".
I honestly cant agree with the stance of baselining comfort levels. If you want all sales sure but if it doesnt fit what you want to make thats your choice
Blade and Sorcery is straight up the most fun I've had in VR so far and it uses both analog movement and IK with full body mapping. THe full body is far from perfect but I love how it fits the grittiness of the combat in the game, and analog motion forces you to stay in the fight considering its very much a melee slower combat game.
Its definitely far from the perfect approach, and far from something that would work from any game, but I definitely am not immediately distancing myself from a game for analog movement or IK
Blade and Sorcery is straight up the most fun I've had in VR so far and it uses both analog movement and IK with full body mapping. THe full body is far from perfect but I love how it fits the grittiness of the combat in the game, and analog motion forces you to stay in the fight considering its very much a melee slower combat game.
Its definitely far from the perfect approach, and far from something that would work from any game, but I definitely am not immediately distancing myself from a game for analog movement or IK
Ah so you're going to be condescending for some reason, cool. My point still stands, if two of the highest profile games in the medium are ignoring 'the default form of movement' at the design level, then going forward I'm not so sure if it's still the default form of movement. As I said before but need to explain again, it's not that "2 titles constitutes a trend" these are the killer apps that are constituting a trend, games that are going to drive hardware sales, you can clearly draw a line distinguishing between a juggernaut and krill.
The biggest VR killer app ever is still using teleportation as the default.
Honestly i have to agree with you. I can believe that numbers say that most games use teleportation as an option (or that the default VR project you get clicking on a button on unity/UE4 uses it), but to suggest that Myst's original point and click movement system from 1992 could in any shape or form be the "default way" of experiencing virtual spaces 30 years later is just ridiculous. It's pretty fine as a tutorial mode though, no doubts about that, with the caveat that some of the people who tried VR in front of me were so disappointed by teleportation, it definitely harmed their interest toward the tech.
OP
OP
Doom VFR
Fallout 4
Skyrim
LA Noire
Budget Cuts
No Man's Sky VR
all these are quote Big endquote VR titles and they all do exactly what I say -- provide many options with teleportation being the baseline. Your notion that teleportion has been "fallen out" is flat out wrong.
I meant Half-Life, the killerest killer app by several magnitudes.
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comparing teleport to "myst" is really off. Teleporting isn't like myst, teleport is like Zelda, where the screen moves in chunks around a larger world at the free whim of the player.
Less people are "disappointed" by teleportation than there are people who get sick by the lack of teleportation. And, again, the trend is to provide options, not stick to any one method. What is being discussed is games that outright do not offer teleportation as a baseline. Those kinds of games are a minority.
I was hoping to get a review copy of Boneworks but never heard back. I think I dodged a bullet on this one. If a VR game makes me sick I don't play it again, period. I haven't gotten vomit-sick in decades, literal decades, and I'm not starting now. I hope the developer can fix this so I can play it eventually.