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Hero (Dragon Quest) banned from the South Australian competitive Smash scene in controversial move
- Thread starter Dreamboum
- Start date
Hero isn't remotely comparable to Smash 4 Bayonetta. For starters, he's clearly not the best character in the game and was banned for reasons unrelated to his power level.
Just because the Smash community failed to appropriately deal with Bayonetta doesn't mean they should hair trigger ban a character for unrelated reasons.
Oh get off your high horse. Its a legitimate character specific problem that is one of many potential issues.
I was going to bring up this exactly. A good bash in Dota could be game changing, and it's something you know CAN happen when you picked that hero or bought the item. You have to adapt to it. Things like bashes would be broken on the heroes that have them with skills if they could stun on command.
If you play Hero, you signed up for the RNG, it can just as easily be your downfall. It's not an external factor like items.
So I havent gone to any locals recently but I have been playing an insane amount of quick play and honestly? Hero really doesn't seem anywhere near as OP as people make him out to be. His MP drains pretty quickly and once that happens he's screwed, and then on top of that because it's completely random there's no guarantee whatsoever for the hero player to really do what they want to do to begin with. Sure there are crits you gotta watch out for but he's relatively easy to dodge.
Omni made a video about how he thinks Hero's just gonna be a gimmick character and so far I'm very inclined to believe with him on that one.
Omni made a video about how he thinks Hero's just gonna be a gimmick character and so far I'm very inclined to believe with him on that one.
Shouldn't this happen if Hero wins a ton of tournaments non-stop and conclude he is broken in some way? this sounds like an overreaction.
I do think the language thing is interesting.
I do think the language thing is interesting.
DotA is also a completely different genre involving 5v5 where you have items and characters that hard counter abilities. If DotA was played Mid 1v1 only, and you could pick Ogre Magi who now has a random chance to multicast an insta kill that goes through BKB maybe? Very strange comparison.
Heros RNG isn't a downfall unless you're going for Hocus Pocus since you get to choose which spell and whether or not to actually cast it. Theres also no downside to having Crits on Smash attacks.
Well actually there is.
If you get countered while getting a Crit. Hero is usually instantly dead.
Salty would be me calling it a bad mod, when it's not. What I was trying to say is that relative to other fighting game communities, Smash is the only one I know of, where there's a loud section of the community clamouring for future iterations to play the exact same as Melee. Adapting to newer mechanics/gameplay (for better or for worse) has always been a part of competitive fighting games.
I think the transition from Melee -> Brawl was a really unique situation though and PM was an interesting evolution of Wii homebrew advancement at the time. It's not really comparable to something like Super Turbo -> Alpha -> SF3 imo
If something like Marvel 3 released in a different state and ended up being universally disliked competitively, and Xbox 360 homebrew was advanced enough to be easily installable for everyone, I could totally see an alt timeline where people tried to mod it to be more like Marvel 2.
PM is a combination of Brawl and Melee tech with more melee physics, with some characters that play completely unique to their other iterations such as Lucario, as well as their own set of custom stages. You could even play through Subspace Emissary if you wanted. I cant think of a single time anyone has ever said "I want it to play the exact same as melee", but rather certain movement options and physics to return, and the Smash 4 top players were also requesting some of those changes after the E3 invitational.
You say adapting to new mechanics and gameplay is standard for fighting games, well find me a game series with as huge of a disparity in gameplay as going from Melee to Brawl. There's a reason its the only fighting game from 2001 that's still thriving to such a degree (everything else that came after was so very different).
As someone who loves Ultimate Marvel 3 to death, I'd still dig a mod of Marvel 3 that plays like Marvel 2 and is rebalanced so Hsien-Ko isn't ass tier and adds back Cable.
Project M was a phenomenal "game" even if Melee wasn't your favorite Smash Bros.
Boy am I glad I don't care about competitive Smash.
You guys just love taking out all the stuff I enjoy.
You guys just love taking out all the stuff I enjoy.
In Dragon Quest III, the world map is a dead ringer for ours. The starting town takes place on the only original continent which is right next to the Australia equivalent. It's also vaguely shaped like Australia as well. However, since it's next to the Australia equivilent and not actually in Australia, its more appropriate to call him a New Zealander.
If a game is as garbage mechanically as Brawl, I'd say the foolish thing would be stick with it.
So the people who enjoy characters like this are just told to eff off because the competitive players don't like them?
We can't have our fun?
Who are you to tell me what I want?
Sigh...I don't play smash anymore since the new one is very mediocre compared to smash Wii u but after watching some gameplay of hero I can see why he was banned. First, the rng mechanic can work in a fighting game but the way it is manipulated by Hero is just whack ;) Seriously critical hits are fine but they should not be killing people at 30%. That should be balanced out so that at 60% you are dead. Look at Marth (my favorite character), his critical hits don't kill at those percentages so why is rng killing someone who is at a lower percentage? Secondly, he absolutely looks broken. What looks like down special kill way too early and it does not need mp is just crazy to me. It's actually comparable to Cloud's down special when his limit is full. Both are very strong but Cloud requires a full limit which is not easy to do while Hero needs....nothing? Also wth at magic burst? The best edge guard in the game? Kills at 10%? Has super large range? Will just encourage players not to use mp until they can get magic burst which is completely broken in most tourney stages? Like I know Smashes dlc characters are usually broken but this is just insane. And this is from someone who does not even play smash ultimate. I can't imagine what it must feel like playing against a broken character with rng traits.
Ah, a fantasy element: everyone knows New Zealand doesn't exist.
The same thing could be said for any banned character or feature.
It's up to the tournament organisers and competitive players to regulate the way that the game is played competitively. These communities are constantly making decisions in the interest of fair play, that's why many stages are banned in Smash.
You don't have a right, to experience the game in the way that Nintendo designed it. Tournaments are independently regulated by the tournament organisers. If players don't like it, they won't play, and fans won't spectate.
Would you go to a Halo tournament and ask them to enable the Rocket Launcher because 'you want to have your fun?'. Competitive regulations are important for the competitive integrity of many games, and many of those decisions are made with a view to remove luck or randomisation from the game.
I agree with you in the general sense, but I don't think this decision is being done with the interest of fair play.
It feels like it is being done out of some weird sense of principle with basically no real world data to back up the ruling.
Bad call from the South Australian scene imo. Luckily, the community at large hasn't taken the bait with the calls for Hero's preemptive ban.
Good write-up. Another thing to note with the down-b is that you cannot pull two spells in a row after execution (unless you used Kamikaze, but that eliminates your stock).
Dabuz had a really good write up.
Good write-up. Another thing to note with the down-b is that you cannot pull two spells in a row after execution (unless you used Kamikaze, but that eliminates your stock).
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This ban is silly. G&W's and Peach's rng elements are far more egregious than anything Hero does. G&W can true combo into his hammer from a throw which is rather noncommittal and unblockable. A 9 kills you no matter the percentage. Hero can't combo into his rng stuff to save his life nor is anything that deadly. Even Thwack only has a chance to kill you and that's on top of the chance to roll it in the first place (not to mention the high MP cost).
Peach's turnip pulls are also pretty fast and Peach can never get anything bad from that. The results from her pull range from good to absoulutely stupid (which can absolutely win games for Peach). At least Hero's menu has a chance that you don't get anything worthwile you're looking for.
If these characters aren't banned I see no reason why Hero should be. Game swinging RNG already has been in Smash for a long while.
Peach's turnip pulls are also pretty fast and Peach can never get anything bad from that. The results from her pull range from good to absoulutely stupid (which can absolutely win games for Peach). At least Hero's menu has a chance that you don't get anything worthwile you're looking for.
If these characters aren't banned I see no reason why Hero should be. Game swinging RNG already has been in Smash for a long while.
Considering how premature the ban feels, it likely came from people high on the PR rather than any kind of meaningful consensus.
Australia also switched to NTSC Melee while Europe still hasn't, in part because of top players pulling for it.
GW's hammer is a chance to also do basically nothing. 9 is strong but it does not kill you no matter the %.
That's not the same as checking the options given to you and deciding not to use them which Hero does. Judgement is absolutely committal and blockable in neutral, and you need a hard read or a solid whiff punish to even attempt a 1 in 9 chance to (probably) KO. Someone said its more comparable to Peach pulling turnips until getting something good, and its a better comparison though stitchface or bomb are still both worse and more rare than the good options Hero has (1/58 chance for stitch face for example, and in Ultimate 1/166 chance of pulling a Mr. Saturn, and a 1/250 chance of pulling a Bob-omb.).
Apparently she has a higher chance of good turnips now, but I cant find the data.
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There are a lot of people in this thread that either A. Don't go to smash tournaments or B. Don't understand how good Hero's RNG is.
1. "Luigi, Peach and G&W have RNG!!"
Hero doesn't have 1, 5, 10 or even 15 random spells. He has 21. Each of these spells are super strong and the idea that you should just read what they're picking or react doesn't work. The other 3 character's have such small RNG. Luigi and G&W don't even have viable competitive RNG, they are joke moves
2. "Just camp him!"
You can't camp him, cause he can just use Heal, and then time you out. YOU'RE at a disadvantage timing him out. He can get his MP back too, and it's not like you're going to win every neutral interaction ever. He wins if you camp him
3. "It's too early"
Blaine's Quiz Show was recently banned in Pokemon TCG, not because it was overpowered but because it could cause a language barrier. BRUTE has bans being called for left right and centre in Fornite competitive at the moment. Bayonetta was banned early on by Spain and in the end, THEY were correct in doing that. It's not like NA Smash has a moral highground with this either. They (unfairly) banned custom Mii's in Smash 4 until very late in the game when no one wanted to learn them because of the time in the games lifespan
4. "Smashes are hard to hit any way, so crits don't matter"
Recently found if you have accelerate you can true combo Frizz into a smash attack from 0. This is SUPER powerful and will be a huge part of Hero's metagame.
5. "Australia isn't good at Smash anyway"
This is a non-arguement i've seen all over Twitter. If you use this, stop.
6. "But other fighting games!! Faust!!"
Smash isn't like OTHER fighting games. It isn't slow paced like a Guilty Gear or Blazblue. If you're running at a Hero, he can pull up the down-b menu, pick a Flame Slash, Snooze, Magic Burst, Kamikazee, Kacrackle Slash, Thwack, Bang before you have time to react.
7. "But Hero isn't even that good"
No, he's not, I think with out RNG he's Bottom 5. But he HAS the RNG. Think about it like this, if Little Mac had a pokeball spawn with him every stock which had a chance to spawn Palkia or anything else, he would be banned. Not because he is good, but because he has a chance to spawn PALKIA. Hero is LITERALLY getting Stars and Mega Mushrooms
1. "Luigi, Peach and G&W have RNG!!"
Hero doesn't have 1, 5, 10 or even 15 random spells. He has 21. Each of these spells are super strong and the idea that you should just read what they're picking or react doesn't work. The other 3 character's have such small RNG. Luigi and G&W don't even have viable competitive RNG, they are joke moves
2. "Just camp him!"
You can't camp him, cause he can just use Heal, and then time you out. YOU'RE at a disadvantage timing him out. He can get his MP back too, and it's not like you're going to win every neutral interaction ever. He wins if you camp him
3. "It's too early"
Blaine's Quiz Show was recently banned in Pokemon TCG, not because it was overpowered but because it could cause a language barrier. BRUTE has bans being called for left right and centre in Fornite competitive at the moment. Bayonetta was banned early on by Spain and in the end, THEY were correct in doing that. It's not like NA Smash has a moral highground with this either. They (unfairly) banned custom Mii's in Smash 4 until very late in the game when no one wanted to learn them because of the time in the games lifespan
4. "Smashes are hard to hit any way, so crits don't matter"
Recently found if you have accelerate you can true combo Frizz into a smash attack from 0. This is SUPER powerful and will be a huge part of Hero's metagame.
5. "Australia isn't good at Smash anyway"
This is a non-arguement i've seen all over Twitter. If you use this, stop.
6. "But other fighting games!! Faust!!"
Smash isn't like OTHER fighting games. It isn't slow paced like a Guilty Gear or Blazblue. If you're running at a Hero, he can pull up the down-b menu, pick a Flame Slash, Snooze, Magic Burst, Kamikazee, Kacrackle Slash, Thwack, Bang before you have time to react.
7. "But Hero isn't even that good"
No, he's not, I think with out RNG he's Bottom 5. But he HAS the RNG. Think about it like this, if Little Mac had a pokeball spawn with him every stock which had a chance to spawn Palkia or anything else, he would be banned. Not because he is good, but because he has a chance to spawn PALKIA. Hero is LITERALLY getting Stars and Mega Mushrooms
Yeah this is convincing. Where it comes to really is that lots of his RNG spells are OP. They need to strike a balance between RNG and usefulness
It's the same in the sense that it's a really good recovery but it is hampered by risk-reward consideration (do I pull out the menu and risk falling too deep?). And there are other ways to kill him (run around him and kill him with his terrible disadvantage).
At the end of the day, he works like a heavy - powerful specials with big hitboxes (fizz and zap) and metronome where half of the spells are really strong and the other half extremely unreliable. But given that he has below-average mobility, and how his bad neutral/even worse disadvantage works he's going to work much harder just to win.
You're bound to get some wonky games for sure, but I swear that the equivalent of playing Russian roulette where it blows up in your face half the time (because you don't get what you need and you get punished with the endlag) probably isn't worth the hassle in competitive.
Also reminder that heals are limited and you don't even need to camp him. Just run him down (and guess who is in top tier right now?)
I see what your saying, but I'm not so sure that fair play is the aim of the ban. It's about keeping the games competitive integrity, minimising the factors that can influence a match that are not a direct a attribute of the players control (e.g. luck). Ultimately, there's lots of reasons that a TO might regulate
Balance (Are certain characters far too powerful? For instance, Akuma in SSF2T)
Limit RNG (Do certain elements take skill away from the gameplay? For instance, stages in Smash)
Practicalities (does a certain strategy stall the game? Like hiding under stage or something)
The argument here is the second. But you don't see it so often for characters in fighting games because for the most part, fighters have very few randomised mechanics. But you see it in stages in Smash, where stages are banned because they can effect each player inequally. Sure players could play with stage hazards on, and simply play around them. On average, the best player would likely, still come out on top, but those randomised elements still harm the validity of the competitive integrity. They still, to a degree make it less about a players mechanical skill and risk allowing something beyond the players control to impact a match.
What I think a lot of folk are mistaking this for, is an argument about balance. It's not about balance, it's not about whether hero is a good character overall, it's about whether his RNG is likely to impact the outcome of individual games. I don't think it would even be in question, if it wasn't Smash, but characters like Mr Game and Watch are tolerated, so some are more willing to accept this style of character design.
What do you mean blowing up in your face? Most of the spells are completely optional and there are many safe opportunities to roll for them. If you're getting punished for using the menu then you're doing it wrong. I feel like the average online scrub even knows not to get caught staring at menus.
As a dirty casual all I've seen is people so afraid of the spell menu that they end up dead for not paying attention rather than dying because of the actual spells.
So somehow the ability to read short words in different languages is what will prevent Hero mains who are invested enough to travel to foreign countries to compete from bothering. Not the massive mechanical skill and big picture awareness barriers common to most fighting games, but reading. Yeah, somehow I don't buy that. If that does happen to be your problem, there is a wide roster of alternatives and you should work on a pocket character for the Hero matchup if your inability to read is the main problem.
What will deter them is constant bans from the community, the same way it deterred Mii (especially non-1111 or non-default size) mains in the past.
Its almost like a character having pronounced strengths and weaknesses is bad somehow because RNG? Should we ban attacking after respawn now because its under a Star effect? Should we pre-emptively call Mushrooms OP when the degree of OP likely varies wildly depending on matchup, and is often a net negative? Its almost as if high rolling can be played around, and almost as if the opponent has the same right to foresee the RNG command before its executed!
There are certain posters in here that are clearly arguing from a Melee perspective. Smash 5 is not Melee, nor is it trying to be.
What will deter them is constant bans from the community, the same way it deterred Mii (especially non-1111 or non-default size) mains in the past.
Its almost like a character having pronounced strengths and weaknesses is bad somehow because RNG? Should we ban attacking after respawn now because its under a Star effect? Should we pre-emptively call Mushrooms OP when the degree of OP likely varies wildly depending on matchup, and is often a net negative? Its almost as if high rolling can be played around, and almost as if the opponent has the same right to foresee the RNG command before its executed!
There are certain posters in here that are clearly arguing from a Melee perspective. Smash 5 is not Melee, nor is it trying to be.
Ok so in the search to find this for you I cannot so this points pretty mute until I can find the actual video with evidence of it lol
Bit condescending here. Imagine you're approaching a Hero, he pulls up his menu and get's Hocus Pocus which is already a 1 in 21 chance, then get a Mega Mushroom. It is the EXACT same reason items are banned. Everyone has the right to forsee and item spawning, everyone knows what each item does, but it's banned because it takes away the competitive integrity of the game. Mushrooms are overpowered because they make you stronger and heavier. Hero is advantageous in this scenario, sure he can be comboed but he comes back down to earth while you're wildly flailing uptilts trying to combo him and camping him just gives him MP. It's a win win scenario for Hero.
Melee has nothing to do with this and I don't understand why you think I'm coming at this from a Melee POV. I talked about how in my post this IS Ultimate, not Guilty Gear or Blazblue.
The only spells you can camp for safely are heal, accelerate, ooph and psyche up. You try fishing for something like snooze/bang/whack in a situation where you're getting run over it's only going to get you punished.
Anyway thinking about it i'm probably not the best qualified to talk about this (honestly no one here is). But I still feel that competitive results speak volumes about how much of an impact he has and it's not there at all.
Even broken stuff like brawl MK/bayo/cloud were quickly identified as problematic. No one has pointed that out of Hero within the same time period.
He only gets Heal twice a stock unless he takes out another stock.
Also, camping him is not even the correct strategy. Hero loses really badly to rushdown because he has 0 options that are good at close-range. The best way to deal with Hero is to put so much pressure on him that bringing up the Command Menu is far more trouble than it's worth. You can't take the time to read what's on the Command Menu if your opponent is not giving you any moment to breathe.
I agree. Sakurai was right to prioritize the broader audience when designing these characters because those are the people who have made this series so successful. He did not specifically set out to make a super competitive Smash game with Smash Ultimate (if he wanted to do that, he could/would have) so expecting it to perfectly conform to pro tourney standard would be a bit misguided.
Now if TOs wanna ban certain elements/characters because they feel like those things break their rules, that's their prerogative, but it doesn't change the fact that the game wasn't designed to cater to professional tourney play 100%.
100% agree just an arguement I've seen on twitter a lot. I still think Hero can control rush down however with half charge side b which is his best move by far imo. Having a projectile doesn't hurt either
This is a legit good strat against Hero. More people should do this.