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snapcracken

Member
Oct 25, 2017
619
For a few years now, the 3.5mm jack is being dropped from most flagships and as a result I keep seeing armchair engineer justifications as to why the jack is going away. Stuff like "they want to sell headphone jack adapters" or "they just want to copy the iPhone", stuff like that. Now, I have a Master's in Computer Engineering and work in-industry as an R&D engineer for a government contractor. I've had experience working on large-scale projects like those they have for consumer electronics, and to see actual analysis on why the headphone jack is being dropped crushed by hundreds of comments that don't make any sort of real sense (mostly on Reddit, to be fair, so not unexpected) has slowly pushed me to engage the conversation around this and I feel it's of worth to clear the air here.

Now, I have never worked in the mobile tech industry specifically, nor have I worked on a team putting out on a phone, but as mentioned I've worked on large-scale tech projects that involve hundreds of engineers as well as smaller scale projects that involve substantially fewer people. In addition, many of the design review standards and practices are used throughout the tech industry, including the mobile phone industry, so I do have some insight on what is going on here. But I must be clear that I can't say as a complete certainty what exactly goes down when an OEM decides to drop the headphone jack, just some informed speculation.

First, some tech background. Mobile phones in many companies involve a development cycle of many years of what you can think of as pre-production, and then a year of two of much more focused production. When Google bought Motorola, they continued to put out phones relatively similar to those they had put out before the acquisition for this reason. But then, a year or two in, Motorola's lineup, branding, and overall design ethos changed dramatically once they had "emptied out the pipeline" and started putting out the phones that Google had started oversight on from day one. That being said, when a phone enters full development with about a year to go, it's at this moment where a lot of the design decisions are put into place. What a phone looks like, what it can do, what ports it has, what specs, etc., usually it's about a year from release when the decisions are made. This does not prevent major and drastic changes from being made later on, but the decisions here start accumulating momentum and often to undo some of them will result in delays, sometimes by months. On top of that, phone development is often rushed, as-is. Mistakes made early on in the hardware are fixed through software patches as opposed to redesigning the motherboard and fabbing samples again, a practice that could take more than a month. So these engineers are often worked very hard to get their job done, and due to the nature of how the generational cycles work in the mobile industry, these time constraints are set in stone--not just for the phone maker itself to launch products on a yearly basis, but also as new generations of SoCs launch yearly, 4G/5G radios improve year over year, and RAM/Flash pricing changes even daily.

Secondly, some business background. When the iPhone 7 launched, some industry watchers assumed that the lack of a 3.5mm would mean that the phone would crash and burn. Instead, it seemingly followed the same trend the iPhone has been on for a while, where it launched bigger than ever but had a shorter tail than the last generation. This is due to broader trends with how consumers are willing to wait longer to upgrade, and when they do upgrade they more often do so at the very beginning at the gen, to make sure their phone feels like the fresh new thing longer. As a result, it became clear that in the market segment those iPhones targeted, consumers were largely apathetic as a whole to the loss of the headphone port. On the business/marketing side of things, not having that port was no longer a detriment to the phone's possible sales. But on the other side of the coin, consumers continue to agitate for more and more featured phones. Because these devices are treated as long term investments, consumers no longer value weird oddities like slide out speakers or Star Wars branding at the cost of core features such as waterproofing, multiple cameras, strong vibration motors, a large bezel-less screen, etc. So while lacking a 3.5mm port may not impact the bottom line too immensely, lacking some of those other features will lead to opinion pieces saying you've made a mistake, which in turn creates negative press for the phone. (Some may point out that lacking a headphone jack port also creates negative press, but that press is softened by the fact that most other companies are also making the same move, which leads to a consumer impression that no phones have this port anymore so why care that this specific model doesn't, either?).

All of this comes down to that design review a year out, where the engineers are running the show, talking about the decisions they've made for their design. In this same room are going to be at least some business folks who are giving feedback on these decisions. Now, as I've said I don't actually work on these types of products so I can't say for certain but I can pretty easily envision how these meetings likely go down: engineers trying to figure out how to work in what they want into the phone while also working in what the business people demand in the phone. These discussions likely will lead to a common result: we don't have the room to fit everything you want unless we make compromises. Because the premium segment of smartphones sell to consumers that don't necessarily care about lacking a headphone jack, that compromise is one the business people may not necessarily push back on, and the engineers are happy to abandon that port because, to be fair, it's a pretty massive port compared to some of the other components on the phone. Now, does this mean those engineers could have worked with that headphone jack, and found a way to make it work? Possibly. It requires the team to be skilled and have the people to spend the extra work on it, though, and not all teams have that sort of talent.

As a result, many flagships have ended up dropping the headphone jack in order to make the incredibly complex work of making a phone more viable. Already, I can hear people try to pre-empt and say "but what about...", and I'll try to address some of those arguments now:
  • Yes, Samsung has had the headphone jack in their phone for a few years past everyone else. The story, as best as it can be told by anyone outside of that company, is that the iPhone 7 launched without a headphone jack partway through the development period for the Galaxy S8. The leaks at the time portrayed some internal arguments about whether to drop the jack or not, and at one point they even considered creating a proprietary port to replace the headphone jack. In the end--probably because they were already deep on developing a phone *with* a headphone jack, the Galaxy S8 launched with a headphone jack, and received tons of praise for it. It's likely the marketability of *having* a headphone jack (because if you notice, I've only ever mentioned that not having a 3.5mm port is not necessarily a downside--I never said anything about the *upside* of having it) convinced Samsung to continue pushing to keep the port. But even they are poised to drop it--it leaked earlier this year that they were planning to drop this port on either the Note 10 or the Note 11, and further leaks of the Note 10 have confirmed it does not have this port. It seems plausible that it has no longer become enough of a marketing point to warrant the extra work the engineers claim they have to do to include it.
  • Yes, I too have seen that video of a dude modding his iPhone 7+ to include a headphone jack port. It's important to note there, that the widely assumed/believed reason for the lack of this port on those iPhones was because of a lack of space. It should be noted, though, that this is true on the *smaller* iPhone. The iPhone 7+ is a bigger phone, and therefore has more space to spare. the space taken up by the headphone jack port on the smaller phone is now taken up by a larger vibration motor for their solid state home button. While they may have been able to work the port into the larger phone, they likely couldn't make everything fit on the smaller phone and so removed the port on both phones for parity.
  • Yes, I've seen the fact that some smaller OEMs like LG and OnePlus keep the headphone jack port well after bigger ones had dropped it, implying that even smaller, less capable teams are able to make it work. It also should be noted, though, that these OEMs only work with larger handsets--phones that used to be called "phablets"--and not the smaller phones that stronger teams at Apple and Samsung work with (a normal S9 is far smaller than the G7, for example). Also, OnePlus isn't actually a small company. They share tech, supplies, manufacturing lines, development talent, etc., with their sister company Oppo, one of the larger tech companies in China.
  • Yes, I'm aware that phones in the midrange still often launch with the 3.5mm ports. This is because consumers who buy phones in this range are perceived as being more price conscious, and therefore need the jack as they don't rely heavily on Bluetooth or relatively pricey adapters to make up for the lack of a port. So the business need of products in this range clearly outline the port as a must-have, as opposed to a nice-to-have or even a no-need-to-have. Instead, features such as waterproofing (which requires a gasket inside the phone), and multiple cameras often get compromised on.
I've written a lot and I'd like for people to read all of it before posting replies, but TL;DR dropping the 3.5mm port is a factor of industry-wide changes, engineering talent constraints, and market requirements.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,466
It got dropped because Apple wanted to sell overpriced earbuds to people(and they patted themselves on the back on stage when it was announced because they claimed they were being courageous), and like with most every product they make, they're cool with sacrificing quality and viability for thinness.

At some point when you have to keep shooting down counterpoints to what you think is an actual point, your point falls apart.
 

Mendrox

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
9,439
You didnt work on any mobile device and wants us to read your wall of text why they DID drop that Feature. Even though it has been shown many times before that they could easily still put it in in the past. Sorry I read almost half of it but didnt see anything convincing. Didnt help you said that you didnt ever work on any Smartphone before
 

whatsinaname

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,067
So your whole point is they removed it because it makes things easier for them and that not enough people pushed back? Where does your own engineering expertise come in to the picture?
 

Futureman

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,404
Apple jizzes in their sleep over a portless phone so I think that was part of it. They probably also have an aneurysm over having an 80s technology on a super advanced smartphone. And it sells more high priced bluetooth headphones.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
I'm willing to buy this to a certain extent but then you see products like the iPad Pro ditching the jack entirely despite ample space to work with and it starts to look like the decision was at least in part motivated by a desire to sell more headphones by the respective manufacturers.
 

Alvis

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,231
Spain
All I know is that the only way I'll ever buy a smartphone without a headphone jack is if there's not a single company left on Earth that makes phones with a headphone jack AND second-hand phones with headphone jacks are too outdated.

*Hugs Moto G7 Plus*

Like, if someone comes to me and straight up gifts me an OnePlus 7 Pro I'd sell it and buy a Galaxy S10 or something.
 

dragonchild

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,270
User Warned: Dismissive drive-by
I have a Master's in Computer Engineering and work in-industry as an R&D engineer for a government contractor.
1409198487972.jpg
 

PoppaBK

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,165
Using apple as an example is kind of pointless as if you want the new iPhone you have no choice but to buy the new apple iPhone headphone jack or not. The more interesting thing will be to see what happens in the Android market over the next couple of generations.
 

uncelestial

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,060
San Francisco, CA, USA
Why did I waste time reading this? The iPhone 7 sold because there was only one model to choose from for people who are ecosystem-locked and want the newest iPhone. It's being dropped from Android phones because now that precedent is set and there's money to be made on accessories. There, the end.
 

phonicjoy

Banned
Jun 19, 2018
4,305
It got dropped because Apple wanted to sell overpriced earbuds to people(and they patted themselves on the back on stage when it was announced because they claimed they were being courageous), and like with most every product they make, they're cool with sacrificing quality and viability for thinness.

At some point when you have to keep shooting down counterpoints to what you think is an actual point, your point falls apart.

Oh fuck, does that mean the earth is actually flat?? /s
 

DJ_Lae

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,870
Edmonton
I dunno, I don't buy that the engineering compromise of fitting other stuff in resulted in the omission of the headphone jack. It's been a standard port in portable audio devices for decades.

The port has been and can be waterproofed. It's not a battery issue - the Galaxy S10+ has a headphone jack and a bigger battery than the near identically sized iPhone XS Max. Apple is not short of resources when it comes to design - it was a conscious decision that resulted in both a cost savings of the port itself and a business benefit of profit from selling adapters (and later, pushing their Airpods). They had it in all their previous iPhones, and the 7 didn't have any magical feature that would have required the space. They did it because they felt they could, and they were right.
 

Mass_Pincup

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,129
It got dropped because Apple wanted to sell overpriced earbuds to people(and they patted themselves on the back on stage when it was announced because they claimed they were being courageous), and like with most every product they make, they're cool with sacrificing quality and viability for thinness.

At some point when you have to keep shooting down counterpoints to what you think is an actual point, your point falls apart.

Yeah sure, "it's all Apple's fault" is a pretty sound analysis.

Also they said that they were "courageous" because they knew people like you would shit on them for that decision, which meant welcoming blow back.
 
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snapcracken

snapcracken

Member
Oct 25, 2017
619
I dunno, I don't buy that the engineering compromise of fitting other stuff in resulted in the omission of the headphone jack. It's been a standard port in portable audio devices for decades.

The port has been and can be waterproofed. It's not a battery issue - the Galaxy S10+ has a headphone jack and a bigger battery than the near identically sized iPhone XS Max. Apple is not short of resources when it comes to design - it was a conscious decision that resulted in both a cost savings of the port itself and a business benefit of profit from selling adapters (and later, pushing their Airpods). They had it in all their previous iPhones, and the 7 didn't have any magical feature that would have required the space. They did it because they felt they could, and they were right.
They increased the size of the vibration motor to create the sort of haptic feedback you need to make their solid state home button feel like it's actually moving. If you look at the layout of the 6s and that of the 7, that's where the space from the missing headphone jack went to.
 

Ringten

Member
Nov 15, 2017
6,195
Read the whole post. I do not really get your point? Basically you are saying it's easier for them to remove it than having to incorporate it.

In my opinion: if some companies are asking close to a grand for a phone, it's reasonable to criticize them for taking a "shortcut"
 

ZattMurdock

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,333
Earth 616
I just bought my S9+ after almost 4 years with an iPhone 6 and being an Apple iPhone user since 2008. I left Apple phones because of the lack of headphone jacks and the notch, among other things. I will keep my S9+ for the foreseeable future until this bullshit fad ends.
 
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snapcracken

snapcracken

Member
Oct 25, 2017
619
I forgot to address probably the one I actually see the most, but also falls apart the second you think deeply about it: the idea that they're trying to save a little bit of money from the just the cost of the port itself, and from selling headphone adaptors.

While selling adapters could be a possibility for Apple (as they use a proprietary port), it isn't viable for most Android manufacturers as they all use USB-C. This means that on top of the cost of including a separate adapter in the box for every single phone they sell (which already is much higher than just the cost of the port itself), if a consumer loses their adapter they can just go out and buy a third party adapter--and likely will. So what limited additional income comes in from selling officially branded adapters is going to be undermined heavily by including one in the box for everyone, knowing that of those who lose it a large amount will just buy a third party adapter.
 

uncelestial

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,060
San Francisco, CA, USA
I forgot to address probably the one I actually see the most, but also falls apart the second you think deeply about it: the idea that they're trying to save a little bit of money from the just the cost of the port itself, and from selling headphone adaptors.

While selling adapters could be a possibility for Apple (as they use a proprietary port), it isn't viable for most Android manufacturers as they all use USB-C. This means that on top of the cost of including a separate adapter in the box for every single phone they sell (which already is much higher than just the cost of the port itself), if a consumer loses their adapter they can just go out and buy a third party adapter--and likely will. So what limited additional income comes in from selling officially branded adapters is going to be undermined heavily by including one in the box for everyone, knowing that of those who lose it a large amount will just buy a third party adapter.
Are you under the impression that Google and Samsung are not selling wireless earbuds and adapters?
 
Oct 28, 2017
5,210
It got dropped because Apple wanted to sell overpriced earbuds to people(and they patted themselves on the back on stage when it was announced because they claimed they were being courageous), and like with most every product they make, they're cool with sacrificing quality and viability for thinness.

At some point when you have to keep shooting down counterpoints to what you think is an actual point, your point falls apart.
Apple wasn't the first to drop the headphone jack. Other phones were also planning to do so at the same time after it released.
 

shem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,955
Okay so here is a question I have generally had for a while and I took an electronics cooling course last semester and we covered the push for this but not the real reason why: why are phone manufacturers pushing for such small thin phones?

Like they went on and on about, oh we are really pushing for more and more thin phones so we need to make everything smaller it's this huge thermal challenge. But why? If the size of the phone is putting such constraints on your thermal solution why shrink it? Why, if you really really really need this space and this the port must go so we can have a vibration motor....why? Phones now are already pretty slim? I'd bet people would be just as willing to accept a slightly thicker/wider/taller phone that has more features.....they just accepted a standard port change by your own admission.
 

DJ_Lae

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,870
Edmonton
They increased the size of the vibration motor to create the sort of haptic feedback you need to make their solid state home button feel like it's actually moving. If you look at the layout of the 6s and that of the 7, that's where the space from the missing headphone jack went to.

That's fair - it is a bit bigger than the motor in the 6S.

Weirdly, the bulk of the headphone jack space is taken up by what is apparently an altimeter...which seems incredibly pointless, or could have been integrated in another way (as other phones have waterproofed without it).

B6ZtnPc.png
 
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snapcracken

snapcracken

Member
Oct 25, 2017
619
Are you under the impression that Google and Samsung are not selling wireless earbuds and adapters?
They do, but could also sell those just as easily to phone owners who have the jack (which is actually what Samsung does). Google even includes a wired version of their Pixel Buds with the Pixel 3 that ends in a USB-C port, which sorta undermines your premise.
 

uncelestial

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,060
San Francisco, CA, USA
They do, but could also sell those just as easily to phone owners who have the jack (which is actually what Samsung does). Google even includes a wired version of their Pixel Buds with the Pixel 3 that ends in a USB-C port, which sorta undermines your premise.
It doesn't really undermine my premise; apple also includes wired earbuds. They still also sell Airpods. These things don't have much to do with each other, they have more to do with the expectation that phones should come with earbuds, so OEMs are handling that as cheaply as possible while trying to make money on the "deluxe" option that has proprietary features.
 

Fudgepuppy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,270
All of your arguments, are all of the arguments I've seen in all threads about it on this forum.

It's always been "They can remove it and put other stuff in the phone, without losing any customers, so why wouldn't they?".

I'll always buy phone with 3,5 as long as they are available.
 

I Don't Like

Member
Dec 11, 2017
14,918
Not to mention the availability of low-cost wireless audio devices, lowering production costs and not having to deal with warranty requests for headphone jacks.

Some people's obsession and insistence on 3.5mm at this point - especially given the existence of adapters - is bordering plain stupid.
 
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snapcracken

snapcracken

Member
Oct 25, 2017
619
It doesn't really undermine my premise; apple also includes wired earbuds. They still also sell Airpods. These things don't have much to do with each other, they have more to do with the expectation that phones should come with earbuds, so OEMs are handling that as cheaply as possible while trying to make money on the "deluxe" option that has proprietary features.
Nobody but Apple, Google and Samsung include headphones in the box, and even Samsung and Google didn't for a while in the US (or at all, in the case of Google). Either way, I'm not gonna stop you if you're stuck on this idea that the only reason they would drop the headphone jack is for some minor bump in some smaller business accessory sales when nothing other than brand synergy would get users to go for Pixel Buds or Galaxy Buds over the hundreds of other alternatives.
 

TheMan

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,264
What you're saying could be true

Or it could be that sheep will spend money on the new earbuds if Tim tells them too. Boom added revenue.
 

Youngfossil

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,670
Nobody but Apple, Google and Samsung include headphones in the box, and even Samsung and Google didn't for a while in the US (or at all, in the case of Google). Either way, I'm not gonna stop you if you're stuck on this idea that the only reason they would drop the headphone jack is for some minor bump in some smaller business accessory sales when nothing other than brand synergy would get users to go for Pixel Buds or Galaxy Buds over the hundreds of other alternatives.
LG does include headphones in box, so does HTC. What are you talking about bruh?

Edit: So does oneplus and Axon

It would be easier to list the ones that dont (I honestly cant think of one)
 

GlassCup64

Member
Dec 16, 2017
1,133
I've always heard that the removal of the standard headphone jack is to make devices slimmer. That is more aesthetically pleasing and more marketable.
 

Stuntman

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
2,157
It's really not needed such a long post for something pretty obvious, socs and components are getting thinner and smaller, and the headphone jack is gonna dissapear someday anyway, so Apple and other manufacturers saw the opportunity to force people into change, all while making a buck (Apple acquired Beats, you know).
The headphone jack is going to dissapear someday, but not before it gets phased by a reliable and cheap wireless solution.

Also hifi and pro audio still depend on many kinds of jacks.