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Heath Ledger's Joker (The Dark Knight) is better than Joaquin Phoenix's (Joker)

Deleted member 58846

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Joaquin Phoenix is the highlight of Joker (the movie). I actually have several misgivings and reservations about the movie itself, but I feel like Phoenix gives the role everything, and elevates it to incredible levels. I'm a fan of his Joker a lot. I need to say this upfront, because I don't mean what I am about to say as a slight at all, but...

I find Ledger's Joker to be a far more interesting character. He's far more engaging. A lot of that has to do with the mystery inherent to him, of course, which Phoenix's Joker lacks, but I also find him to be a more dynamic and proactive character (Phoniex's Joker is merely reactive and mostly passive), while also having a Batman to play off of, which makes him far more intriguing than a Joker without a foil can ever be. Heath Ledger's Joker I feel completely embodies the manic energy Joker is supposed to stand for: he's deranged and unhinged, but he is in control, and one step ahead of everyone else, while also one step away from utter insanity.

Phoenix's Joker is incredible, and I have nothing but the maddest of props for how well he pulled it off. But Ledger remains my favorite Joker.
 
Gustaf

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we saw heath ledgers joke for two hours

we saw phoenix joker, for less than 15 minutes.
 
gnarlyxcharlie

gnarlyxcharlie

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It's really hard to judge given the different portrayals and roles they both play. Ledger is there solely for the exciting moments and we never see him as the protagonist.
 
Heromanz

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Outside of them being the joker they're completely different characters can't really pick one over of the other
 
Toxi

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I mean, it's fucking Heath Ledger's Joker. That's kinda an unfair standard of comparison.
 
HStallion

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This is down as much to the movie around the actors and their takes on the Joker than the performance itself. TDK is a far superior product overall that gave Ledger a lot more to work with than Phoenix did in his film.
 
HamSandwich

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Definitely. Heath's Joker stood out because of the small mannerism details that he put in his character. Like it's insane that you see his Joker and never actually see Heath Ledger. I couldn't say the same for Phoenix or even Nicholson.
 
LGHT_TRSN

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They are completely different characters at this point in time. Heath's Joker has clearly existed for a long time, so his character is established.

Phoenix' Joker we only really see at the very end of the film, and he's just transformed into him, so we don't really see ANY development of the Joker personality, only the transformation into the Joker persona.

I think Phoenix' Joker has a lot of promise as a character but he requires further development.

Performance wise, they both gave 110% and elevated what they were given, so I'm not really going to comment on which one was better in that regard.
 
thediamondage

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Oct 25, 2017
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I watched TDK the night after I watched The Joker in theaters, and yeah its no contest at all to me. I love TDK and could rewatch it every day and be happy. I watched The Joker once, I liked it, but I don't really ever want to watch it again.
 
LewieP

LewieP

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Oct 26, 2017
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I don't think Ledger's performance will ever be bested.

Phoenix did a great job though.

Edit: and they are so different, that a direct comparison is hard. I would like to see Phoenix take on The Batman and fully become The Joker.
 

jviggy43

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Oct 28, 2017
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I mean yeah. And its not even close. Ledger played the joker. Pheonix played a dumb white dude with a gun. Not to mention one had batman in it which is what makes joker as a character so interesting as opposed to just a crazy person causing chaos.
 
Gustaf

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also even if you think ledger jokers is "better"

phoenix at least portrayed various faces, various sides, several facets of the character.

ledger just played the joker straight.

so i appreciate phoenix joker even more

(i never was a fan of ledger's joker, even if his acting was superb)
 
Wally_Wall

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Not a fair comparison at all. Phoenix was playing Arthur Fleck for practically the entire film. You're not even comparing the same character.
 
TheIdiot

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Sounds like you're talking about the role the characters play in their respective movies, rather than the actor's performance.
 
Fliesen

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They both excel at different aspects of the Joker.

Phoenix' Joker is properly deranged.
Ledger's Joker is properly smart.

Right now, that makes Ledger's a more intriguing villain to be pit against Batman.
Phoenix' Joker never felt in control of what was happening, really.
 
Lotus

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Well yea? He's in a better movie, and most importantly, Phoenix barely got to actually be the actual Joker until like the very end. Even disregarding that, Fleck just mostly lucked into things happening in his favor.
 
Dust

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I was one of those that thought that Ledger was a bit too "sane", felt more like organized terrorist than insane prince of clowns.
I like both though, Leto is the only shitty one.

Also Phoenix becomes Joker briefly for the final act, Ledger obviously is years into this shit and has Batman as a foil. A bit unfair to compare them.
 
OP
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Deleted member 58846

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jviggy43 said:
I mean yeah. And its not even close. Ledger player the joker. Pheonix played a dumb white dude with a gun. Not to mention one had batman in it which is what makes joker as a character so interesting as opposed to just a crazy person causing chaos.
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No, Phoenix's Joker is still fantastic, don't just dismiss that. That said, I agree that Joker is far more interesting when he has Batman to play off of (as I said in the OP).
 
Lotus

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Frankly I'm not really bothered if Joker remains a standalone thing that isn't ever connected to anything else.

jviggy43 said:
I mean yeah. And its not even close. Ledger played the joker. Pheonix played a dumb white dude with a gun. Not to mention one had batman in it which is what makes joker as a character so interesting as opposed to just a crazy person causing chaos.
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Yea he really needed a foil.
 
MrCheezball

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I prefer Heath's joker, but I can't say who was the better Joker. Both were insane performances that elevated the material.
 

jviggy43

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Oct 28, 2017
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The One Who Knocks said:
No, Phoenix's Joker is still fantastic, don't just dismiss that. That said, I agree that Joker is far more interesting when he has Batman to play off of (as I said in the OP).
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I woouldn't call phoenix's character the joker. Not even when he "becomes" the joker. He lacked any agency or intelligence that makes the character so scary. He did a great job performance wise, but that wasn't the joker.
 
Evildeadhead

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Really glad another thread was made about this hidden gem of a film. I just can't understand why nobody is talking about a stand-alone Joker film, you would think there would be multiple threads daily about it by now.
 
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jviggy43 said:
I woouldn't call phoenix's character the joker. Not even when he "becomes" the joker. He lacked any agency or intelligence that makes the character so scary. He did a great job performance wise, but that wasn't the joker.
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Right, I agree with that. He never feels like the Joker, just a Joker, if that makes sense.
 

Deleted member 224

Oct 25, 2017
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The 33 to 15 minute comparison isn't entirely fair. Joaquin's Joker literally only exists for the last part of the movie. He isn't talked about, or referenced, or dealt with until then. In addition, we only see the first night of his existence as the character.

Put Joaquin's Joker up against Pattinson's Batman for a whole movie and we could easily get the best interpretation of both characters so far imo
 
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Evildeadhead said:
Really glad another thread was made about this hidden gem of a film. I just can't understand why nobody is talking about a stand-alone Joker film, you would think there would be multiple threads daily about it by now.
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I'm sorry, would you like to go back to half a dozen daily MCU threads? Or maybe another one about tipping instead?
If you don't want to participate in the thread, stay out and don't shit it up with your thread whining.
 
HamSandwich

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jviggy43 said:
I mean yeah. And its not even close. Ledger played the joker. Pheonix played a dumb white dude with a gun. Not to mention one had batman in it which is what makes joker as a character so interesting as opposed to just a crazy person causing chaos.
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Tbf, even if you fast forward to Batman time, does Fleck really strike you as someone who can go toe to toe with Batman in terms of intellect? Never mind physicality. I find it hard to believe that he would even have anyone that would follow him.
 
Lotus

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HamSandwich said:
Tbf, even if you fast forward to Batman time, does Fleck really strike you as someone who can go toe to toe with Batman in terms of intellect? Never mind physicality. I find it hard to believe that he would even have anyone that would follow him.
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Not at all. Though if the movie/performance is good enough, I'd probably get over it though. But yea, it's hard seeing him measure up. The age gap also feels weird but whatever.
 
Mars People

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There is no way Phoenix's Joker could ever go up against a potential Batman due to the age/time difference.
 
TransEuropaExpress

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Overall, I'd give it to Heath Ledger I guess but they're so different and both pretty much fantastic performances that it's weird for me to even judge. I wouldn't say Phoenix even really plays The Joker but just Arthur Fleck.

But for the sake of the thread, I choose Ledger, yup.
 
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