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Nappuccino

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,015
It's hard to critique someone who died before their time, I suppose.

Really surprised I watch all of hbomberguy's video, and only slightly less surprised that I still have zero interest in watching RWBY now.
 

NewErakid

Member
Jan 17, 2018
1,089
I think I watched the first season of this show but ended up losing interest pretty quick. Also kinda disappointing to hear that hbomberguy might not have done his research on certain topics, kinda brings the video down for me bit I'm not knowledgeable enough to know if that's true or not
 

Veldin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,182
Great video and worth the wait. Most of his criticism are things that I agree with, but his positive thoughts on volume 3 are something I don't. The story and characters being so bad in volume 1 and 2 drains away any impact the events of 3 could've had.

If nothing else, I think the faunus section of the video is worth watching and provides a good summary of how utterly awful that story element is. Something I've grown very tired of is fiction that uses racism as a prop for conflict without really saying anything meaningful about it, and that's exactly what happens here. In the case of RWBY, the writers inadvertently denounce the idea of fighting for racial equality by making victims of oppression into violent radical villains that just can't be reasoned with and who wind up as fodder for the heroes to beat up. There's little care taken to give the White Fang's cause even a shred of legitimacy and dismantling the systems that allow faunus to be discriminated against is never really an active goal for any of the central characters. Who cares, right? The racism element is an empty facade built up to provide some unequivocal bad guys for the plot. It is wild how badly written it is and I loathe the people responsible for it.
 

DWarriorSN

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,133
PA
RWBY might the most consistently mediocre show i watch.

I was somewhat enjoying s7(?, the latest one) and then they hit us with that awful 3 way fight garbage (the one with Qrow, Tyrion and the lucky guy) and it completely ruined it for me.

I will say though animation wise they've hit a good compromise in terms of fight choreography and animation (for the most part, sometimes it looks a little too stiff) , though i still prefer the Monty style of fights.
 

Remnants

Prophet of Regret
Member
Jul 18, 2019
807
Stopped during five and recently went back to watch 6 and 7. It's not a great show in any shape or form but I enjoyed it.
 

Deleted member 52442

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 24, 2019
10,774
what a great watch even though i haven't watched the show


i need more videos like this, that go into the writing of a show... but like, bad examples. A lot of them go into what makes shows great, i want a deconstruction of something mediocre
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
User Banned (1 Month): Dismissing concerns around objectification, hostility
Not sexualized

450


Ok, fam.

And ok, seems I heard wrong. Most of the characters are 17, which isn't a whole lot better in the context of a bunch of (nearly) ~30 year olds commenting on them like that. Still gross, especially in light of them adding self-insert romantic interest male characters into it that they voice acted
If you think that's a sexualized picture you have a few screws loose.

Only Yang (yellow) has an outfit that would be out of a place in real world public setting for its overt sexual imagery. Even then she isn't even in a sexy pose.

One out of 4 characters doesn't constitute gratuitous sexiness.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,547
This review was, much like RWBY, a mixed bag that could have been a lot better.

I think it shows some of the cracks when HBomberguy is complaining about the sexualization of high school age characters after recommending fucking Soul Eater.

The connections made between the show and it's obvious inspirations are also... Really, really, really weak outside the obvious examples like the shop robbery. There was an argument to be made here about cliche character archetypes, but instead he goes for shit like "Reincarnation = Avatar".

The strongest moments of the video are when It talks the flaws in establishing concepts and how those eventually snowball into bigger issues. For example, the lack of attention to the Faunus early on made the racism allegory even more awkward, because it basically doesn't exist until it's the main plot.
 

Trisc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,488
This review was, much like RWBY, a mixed bag that could have been a lot better.

I think it shows some of the cracks when HBomberguy is complaining about the sexualization of high school age characters after recommending fucking Soul Eater.
He was complaining largely about how the characters were underage, sexualized, and made into love interests for the characters he argues are self-inserts (which there's an argument for at least one, given Neptune's inversely proportional screentime and importance to the plot). Let's be real: those comments from Miles and Kerry regarding the character designs were weird, and more than a little creepy.
The connections made between the show and it's obvious inspirations are also... Really, really, really weak outside the obvious examples like the shop robbery. There was an argument to be made here about cliche character archetypes, but instead he goes for shit like "Reincarnation = Avatar".

The strongest moments of the video are when It talks the flaws in establishing concepts and how those eventually snowball into bigger issues. For example, the lack of attention to the Faunus early on made the racism allegory even more awkward, because it basically doesn't exist until it's the main plot.
If they're "obvious inspirations", why are the connections he makes between the inspirational material and the show "weak"? He makes a great point with out of place elements like the interrogation scene and the opening spiel for dust almost directly aping early moments in TLA and TLoK.

The writers were clearly inexperienced and had little idea of how to create a coherent narrative. It took them multiple seasons to accomplish anything worthwhile with the story overall. It shouldn't be surprising at all that they would be copying elements from shows in a genre they had little exposure to in order to create the world for the show. Obviously, Monty isn't without fault in this; his hands-off approach to the writing, as well as his desire to have the show being written around his fights clearly hurt the pacing of the series. He also should've looked to writers who had existing experience with writing a show, period. It would've also helped to look for writers who were familiar with the themes of the show he wanted to make, so as to avoid writers who would easily wind up in the pitfall of copying elements of other shows without realizing why they worked in those series.
 

Deleted member 2210

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,366
If you think that's a sexualized picture you have a few screws loose.

Only Yang (yellow) has an outfit that would be out of a place in real world public setting for its overt sexual imagery. Even then she isn't even in a sexy pose.

One out of 4 characters doesn't constitute gratuitous sexiness.
Girl in black is literally upskirted
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,547
He was complaining largely about how the characters were underage, sexualized, and made into love interests for the characters he argues are self-inserts (which there's an argument for at least one, given Neptune's inversely proportional screentime and importance to the plot). Let's be real: those comments from Miles and Kerry regarding the character designs were weird, and more than a little creepy.
I think the argument that RWBY sexualizes underage characters has a bit of credence... But it's also something present (often in far worse ways) in the same anime Hbomberguy uncritically recommends in the next breath.

That's what's frustrating. A lot of the same flaws in RWBY are in the inspirations. Bleach, Naruto, Soul Eater, these series all collapsed under the weight of too many characters. Jojo's Bizarre Adventure has at many points been just about the fights with the story as a thin pretext for going between them. And the fetishization of high school age children is something present in all of those series. Remember the episode of Stardust Crusaders that ogled a naked kid in the shower right before she was almost raped? Or how about the entire goddamn character of Yolo in Gurren Lagann

RWBY is bad, but HBomberGuy never makes the obvious connection between the worse traits and the series that came before... And I don't know why. I feel like he almost has blinders for all those series but Bleach.

This doesn't make RWBY any better, and I think the video accurately summarizes general problems like the series' lack of identity (Even if I disagree with the way he argued that part), terrible exposition, lack of foundation for major plot points, and mishandling of serious issues.

But by treating all of RWBY's problems in isolation, HBomberguy misses a chance to talk about the bigger picture, because that would require slaughtering actual sacred cows. Including, as some people in the thread have already pointed out, Monty Oum's previous work.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,706
I think the argument that RWBY sexualizes underage characters has a bit of credence... But it's also something present (often in far worse ways) in the same anime Hbomberguy uncritically recommends in the next breath.
It's worth noting that it's not that he's recommending it in the sense of "Check these out, they are so good and unlike what I'm complaining about with RWBY."

What he is saying is "If you like what RWBY is doing, then you'll like what these other shows are doing because they did it better and RWBY just tried replicate what they did."

That can be true even if he still thinks Soul Eater, like RWBY is creepy for sexualizing teenage girls.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,547
It's worth noting that it's not that he's recommending it in the sense of "Check these out, they are so good and unlike what I'm complaining about with RWBY."

What he is saying is "If you like what RWBY is doing, then you'll like what these other shows are doing because they did it better and RWBY just tried replicate what they did."

That can be true even if he still thinks Soul Eater, like RWBY is creepy for sexualizing teenage girls.
The problem is he never connects "This show is sexualizing teenage girls" and "this show is incredibly generic and derivative" that the two might be related. And this applies not just to the fetishization of children, it applies to a lot of the problems with RWBY he pointed out.
 
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Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,706
The problem is he never connects "This show is sexualizing teenage girls" and "this show is incredibly generic and derivative" that the two might be related. And this applies not just to the fetishization of children, it applies to a lot of the problems with RWBY.
I'm not sure I follow. Those could be related in some ways, but they aren't inherently. A show can be generic and derivative while not sexualizing teenage girls or it can sexualize teenagers while being unique and innovative. And the specific issue with sexualizing teenagers is catergorically different from the problems of being generic and derivative.

But either way, his point about RWBY being derivative is that the shows it's deriving from are just better. Which I think is true even with regards to really bad anime like Bleach. It isn't to say that those shows are flawless, but specifically just better than RWBY in what RWBY is trying to do. So if you liked what RWBY is doing, it's probably you'll like what those shows because they do it better.
 
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Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,547
I'm not sure I follow. Those could be related in some ways, but they aren't inherently. A show can be generic and derivative while not sexualizing teenage girls or it can sexualize teenagers while being unique and innovative.

But either way, his point about RWBY being derivative is that the shows it's deriving from are just better. Which I think is true even with regards to really bad anime like Bleach. It isn't to say that those shows are flawless, but specifically just better than RWBY in what RWBY is trying to do. So if you liked what RWBY is doing, it's probably you'll like what those shows because they do it better.
Why? The fetishization of teenagers is one of the things that makes RWBY cliche. So does the addition of tons of unnecessary characters who exist just for cool designs. So does giving the hero a special destiny to give them more stuff to do. So does the lack of dark-skinned characters. So does the awkward writing of women by men. So does the failure to balance mature subject matter with a child-friendly tone.

HBomberguy isn't pretending stuff like Soul Eater is perfect, but he refuses to make the obvious connection between the problems in RWBY and the problems widespread in the source material. Which is something he should talk about if he wants to say anything more than "RWBY is a generic mishandled mess" like we already knew.
 
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Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,706
Why? The fetishization of teenagers is one of the things that makes RWBY cliche.
Because they are categorically different problems.

If you are sexualizing teenagers in your show, you're feeding into the nasty part of the fanbase that have pedophilia tendencies. It's not to say that anyone who finds these character attractive is necessary a pedophile or even that narratively it's always wrong to do so (if your writing teenage characters, it would be a little weird for them to never have any attraction to other teens, for example), but more concerning is the open admission that high school characters can be subject to sexualization even when it serves no narrative purpose, which can play into how people perceive high schoolers in real life. Ask any girl, she'll probably tell you they had some guys that leer or harassed them sexually while they were just teens, and shows that sexualize teens normalizes that behavior and they shouldn't do that because...that's bad. Like, morally.

Whereas if your just writing a generic, by the numbers plot and characters, like Hbomb's criticism of Ruby having no character except cookie cutter heroics....well, that's not good in terms of writing, but I don't see that having any social ramifications. Ruby being boring af doesn't incentivize any men or women to act creepy, you know? It's a waste of a character, but it's nothing more than that.

Edit: If your problem with sexualizing teens in a show is that it's a worn out trope, then that's fixable, because I'm sure there are some artists that sexualize teenagers in all sorts of new and innovative, creative ways
 
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Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,547
Because they are categorically different problems.

If you are sexualizing teenagers in your show, you're feeding into the nasty part of the fanbase that have pedophilia tendencies. It's not to say that anyone who finds these character attractive is necessary a pedophile or even that narratively it's always wrong to do so (if your writing teenage characters, it would be a little weird for them to never have any attraction to other teens, for example), but more concerning is the open admission that high school characters can be subject to sexualization even when it serves no narrative purpose, which can play into how people perceive high schoolers in real life. Ask any girl, she'll probably tell you they had some guys that leer or harassed them sexually while they were just teens, and shows that sexualize teens normalizes that behavior and they shouldn't do that because...that's bad. Like, morally.

Whereas if your just writing a generic, by the numbers plot and characters, like Hbomb's criticism of Ruby having no character except cookie cutter heroics....well, that's not good in terms of writing, but I don't see that having any social ramifications. Ruby being boring af doesn't incentivize any men or women to act creepy, you know? It's a waste of a character, but it's nothing more than that

Edit: If your problem with sexualizing teens in a show is that it's a worn out trope, then that's fixable, because I'm sure there are some artists that sexualize teenagers in all sorts of new and innovative, creative ways
The fuck is this response?

Veelk, please go over my posts and tell me where I said I was okay with the sexualization of teenagers. Where I said it wasn't a problem. Where I even implied either of those things.

Can't find it? Then shut the fuck up. I'm amazed you managed to somehow interpret the suggestion that sexualization of minors is a widespread problem in anime, and that its presence in the most generic cookie-cutter attempt at an anime could be symptomatic of that, with the idea that sexualization of minors is acceptable.
 
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BassForever

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
29,931
CT
I'm kind of ok with this since the death is still relatively recent and having a critique video focus at all on the negative things a dead guy did only comes off as assholeish and insensitive.

This video needed to have that critique though since it's intrinsically tied to what went wrong with the first 2.5ish seasons of RWBY. It's been 5 years since Oum tragically passed away, when we analyze his career we need to sing his praises and acknowledge his faults. In a 2.5 hour video there is certainly room to do both respectfully.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,706
The fuck is this response?

Veelk, please go over my posts and tell me where I said I was okay with the sexualization of teenagers. Where I said it wasn't a problem. Where I even implied either of those things.

Can't find it? Then shut the fuck up. I'm amazed you managed to somehow interpret the suggestion that sexualization of minors is a widespread problem in anime, and that its presence in the most generic cookie-cutter attempt at an anime could be symptomatic of that, with the idea that sexualization of minors is acceptable.
?????????????????

I never said you were okay with the sexualization of minors.

You asked me why "being generic and derivative" and "sexualizing teens" aren't inherently interlinked. So I explained why. Because they are categorically different problems, which have different real world effects. One has an influence on a real world social issue, the other mostly just is a bit boring.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,547
?????????????????

I never said you were okay with the sexualization of minors.
I'm sorry, how was I supposed to take this?

Edit: If your problem with sexualizing teens in a show is that it's a worn out trope, then that's fixable, because I'm sure there are some artists that sexualize teenagers in all sorts of new and innovative, creative ways

You asked me why "being generic and derivative" and "sexualizing teens" aren't inherently interlinked. So I explained why. Because they are categorically different problems, which have different real world effects. One has an influence on a real world social issue, the other mostly just is a bit boring.
They are different problems in seriousness, but I feel the root cause for both is RWBY being slavishly devoted to genre tropes. I thought HBomberGuy neglecting that issue was a major miss.

But it's hard to even talk with you after your last post.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,706
I'm sorry, how was I supposed to take this?

They are different problems in seriousness, but I feel the root cause for both is RWBY being slavishly devoted to genre tropes. I thought HBomberGuy neglecting that issue was a major miss.
Take it like the way it was written. If the problem is my inclusiveness of "teens" there, then remove that, but the point I was making is that sexualization itself can be made innovative with the right creative mind, so it makes little sense to tie it directly to genericness. I mostly just said teenagers because that's the characters we're talking about

In other words, I was saying even if RWBY was really creative, unique, and innovative in how it sexualized Yang, for example, it would still be a problem because it's sexualizing a teenager without even having a narrative justification for it. So the fact that it's a genre trope is not, itself, the issue.

But it's hard to even talk with you after your last post.
Then don't.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,532
I remember watching the first season of RWBY simply because of the hype and not being impressed at all with it. I'm genuinely surprised it has continued for this long.

Then, again, I have no desire to watch shonen anime anymore so I suppose I'm outside of the target demographic.
 

nachum00

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,414
I tried watching RWBY but I couldn't get into it at all.

But I also think Dead Fantasy is one of the worst things I've ever seen in my life.
 

Mr_Antimatter

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,571
There is some obvious fan service/sexualization in the show, most cleavage and outfits clearly design for allure rather then combat.

but that's about it. No nude scenes, no panty shots etc. I chalk a lot of that design to emulating anime/fantasy designs. Once they moved away from that we got some more interesting designs for women, not counting the novel character Carmine who is well, obviously an exception.
 

ReginaldXIV

Member
Nov 4, 2017
7,797
Minnesota
There's really nothing to critique on Monty's part in the show. Outside of maybe caring more about the writing and world-building before animation even started. Most of his character designs and his animation were/are still very good.

A huge, if not all of the issues are all on the writing. They effectively animated a show and then worked backwards for 3 seasons, then hit the reset button and they've been trying to dig out of that hole ever since.

The show really just needs new writers. No ill-will to the people who wrote it, but they weren't prepared for a show like this.
 

Slatsunus

Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,209
There's really nothing to critique on Monty's part in the show. Outside of maybe caring more about the writing and world-building before animation even started. Most of his character designs and his animation were/are still very good.

A huge, if not all of the issues are all on the writing. They effectively animated a show and then worked backwards for 3 seasons, then hit the reset button and they've been trying to dig out of that hole ever since.

The show really just needs new writers. No ill-will to the people who wrote it, but they weren't prepared for a show like this.
Monty was literally the only reason Jaune got such focus in the first couple seasons/why the dance arc even happened. He really wanted to animate JNPR's dance sequence. That's the only reason the arc exists. "Nothing to critique" my ass. A tong of the shows writing issues came directly from him because he would explicitly write things just to justify animations he wanted to do. Or he would come up with major plot points in between seasons then tell others to make it work. Like the Maidens
 

take_marsh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,267


hbomberguy
@Hbomberguy

I originally drew a really direct comparison between rt and rwby vs bungie and destiny but I cut it to try to make the video shorter. Long story short destiny is awful because its an OK-ish game that should have been amazing

I finally finished the video last night and saw this tweet today. It's a pretty great comparison: Not just a single showing, but a continuous showing of something that can be great but absolutely fumbled due to incompetence (mainly author incompetence).