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ContractHolder

Jack of All Streams
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,176
https://deadline.com/2022/06/batman-azteca-hbo-max-orders-animated-feature-mexico-1235044624/

Batman is heading to Mexico. HBO Max Latin America has ordered an original animated feature-length film that takes the DC Comics character south of the border. The streamer will launch the Dark Knight story Batman Azteca: Choque De Imperios (Aztec Batman: Clash of Empires). The news was unveiled at the Guadalajara International Film Festival.

In the time of the Aztec Empire, Yohualli Coatl – a young Aztec boy – experiences tragedy when his father and village leader, Toltecatzin, is murdered by Spanish Conquistadors. Yohualli escapes to Tenochtitlan to warn King Moctezuma and his high priest, Yoka, of imminent danger. Using the temple of Tzinacan, the bat god, as a lair, Yohualli trains with his mentor and assistant, Acatzin, developing equipment and weaponry to confront the Spaniard invasion, protect Moctezuma's temple, and avenge his father's death.
 

Wrexis

Member
Nov 4, 2017
21,220
I'm in.

K9HVLEU.jpg
 

KillstealWolf

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
16,046
OP
OP
ContractHolder

ContractHolder

Jack of All Streams
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,176
Huh.

This puts this thread in an interesting light.

www.resetera.com

After weeks of research, crunchtime on Fat4all's mainframe, and talks with top people. I have decided who would be DCEU's Morbius.

My main criteria was a) obscure character, b) could be interesting with minimal work, c) someone DC would fuck up anyway. Shoutout to Rhaknar Uno was raised by a doomsday cult to fight the return of a south American evil god. He was given a mystical suit of armor and assumed the identity of...

... Summon Slayven
 

Wrexis

Member
Nov 4, 2017
21,220
Huh.

This puts this thread in an interesting light.

www.resetera.com

After weeks of research, crunchtime on Fat4all's mainframe, and talks with top people. I have decided who would be DCEU's Morbius.

My main criteria was a) obscure character, b) could be interesting with minimal work, c) someone DC would fuck up anyway. Shoutout to Rhaknar Uno was raised by a doomsday cult to fight the return of a south American evil god. He was given a mystical suit of armor and assumed the identity of...

Slayven works for DC confirmed.
 

WhySoDevious

Member
Oct 31, 2017
8,447
There are plenty of Aztec and Mayan stories, both real and mythological, that are worth telling without having to add an American superhero to it.
 

Tavernade

Tavernade
Moderator
Sep 18, 2018
8,610
This sounds amazing.

I'm a little curious if we're gonna get any Batman villains as Conquistadors now, though.
 

Naijaboy

The Fallen
Mar 13, 2018
15,228
Huh.

This puts this thread in an interesting light.

www.resetera.com

After weeks of research, crunchtime on Fat4all's mainframe, and talks with top people. I have decided who would be DCEU's Morbius.

My main criteria was a) obscure character, b) could be interesting with minimal work, c) someone DC would fuck up anyway. Shoutout to Rhaknar Uno was raised by a doomsday cult to fight the return of a south American evil god. He was given a mystical suit of armor and assumed the identity of...
How does he will things to existence like this?
 

ResetSoul

Banned
Jul 29, 2021
1,366
I figured this was going to be a thing after that Batman Samurai special.

I mean, not Mayan/Aztec specifically, but a ton of animated Batman "Elseworld" style riffs.
 

Catshade

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,197
To be honest, that synopsis fits the Assassin's Creed franchise more than a Batman story.
 

sibarraz

Prophet of Regret - One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
18,086

I know the spanish name is guason, is a joke about how spanish european take some liberties with localizations, when the last Joker movie came out, someone faked a poster from the movie than said "El Bromas" claiming it waa from Spain and a lot of people from latin america believed it was real
 
Sep 5, 2021
3,024
I'm excited for the movie, but why do they almost always choose to set the stories during the Spanish conquest? Mesoamerica has a pretty long history, here's an explanation from a thread on /co/:

Mesoamerican history dumper chiming in and happy to answer questions till I go to bed or if the thread is still up tommorow

Also reminder to watch Onyx Equinox ( if you haven't already, it is both /co/ and is extremely well researched, the best I've ever seen a commercial media production (and for indie /co/ stuff check out Zotz, Codex Black, and Aztec Empire; though Codex Black actually got picked up by IDW, see also https://desuarchive.org/co/thread/119651972/#119695404)

Honestly, the premise sounds decent, as far as authenticity goes. I'm saying that partially based on low expectations because A: rarely anything does Mesoamerica well (hence why I shill Onyx so much: it does an amazing job REGARDLESS of the bar being low) and B: an adaptation of Batman brings with it a lot of baggage that inherently doesn't entirely work in the setting, but FOR WHAT IT IS it sounds like they're trying and giving a shit: The names are all actual Nahuatl or close enough faux Nahuatl, the use of the -tzin honorific is there, the meaning of the names is at least tangential related.

>>131262817
>>131262834
>>131262880
I don't know a ton about batman, but i'd make Joker tied to Tezcatlipoca, who is heavily associated with strife, chaos, mischief, and tricking rulers into their downfall, such as in the infamous pic related.

>>131263008
I'm also sort of sick of needing to center everything around the Conquest, but it's sadly all most people know. If you haven't watched Onyx Equinox yet, check it out: Not only is it NOT focused around contact/the conquest at all, but it instead focuses on conflict between different Mesoamerican civilizations (not just the Aztec and Maya, but also Zapotec and Totonac), and their gods. Even Izel's character arc ties into themes from 16th century Nahuatl poetry and adages from the florentine codex, it's sort of incredible.

And yeah, making him Maya so he could be tied to an actual diety/monster like Camazotz might have worked better.

1/?

>>131267059
cont:

>>131263173
Watch Onyx: You have Maya ball players, an Aztec boy, a Zapotec tomboy, etc fighting against cosmic horror aztec gods.

>>131262995
Mesoamerica had urban state socities, not "tribes". Even the conquistadors like Cortes and Bernal Diaz and Spanish friars like Duranb and Sahagun repeatedly made it a point to praise Mesoamerican cities (see pic), cleanliness, rule of law, and intelligence. You also see missionaries directly comparing them to Greeks and Romans in terms of being "civilized pagans"; in spite of sacrifices.

History doesn't have good guys and bad guys, everybody involved in the conquest was trying to use it to their own ends: Cortes wanted glory, the Governor of Cuba wanted to reap the rewards of the mainland for himself, Moctezuma II/the Mexica of the Aztec capital wanted to court the Conquistadors into becoming subjects, Texcoco wanted to use them to replace Tenochtitlan as the seat of Aztec imperial power. Even Tlaxcala, which was was using the Conquistadors to escape Aztec aggression, seemed to have still used the Conquistador to commit a massacre and prop up Tlaxcalatec puppets in Cholula.

Regarding sacrifices, I do think acting like it's somehow any worse then the religions purges and wars that happened in Medieval Eurasia is very arbitrary: Both are religious murder, it's just one is for your own god vs punishing people for worshipping a different god. Both were also a mix of religious and political violence: most victims in sacrifices in Mesoamerica were captured enemy soldiers, etc

>>131263249
The Aztec empire was a warmongering, militaristically expansionist state, and the capital Tenochtitlan propped a lot of it's ideology and political identity and stability up based on constant conquests; and I think you could make plenty of moral criticisms on that ground, but "One of the most objectively evil nations" I think is unwarranted and based on misunderstandings.

2/?

>>131267138
>>131263249
cont:

When the Aztec Empire DID conquer a city or a town, they generally just demanded taxes of economic goods, military aid and public labor service on request, and some other basic obligations. As long as that was met, they got left alone to self manage and local rulers, laws, and customs were generally kept in place. They did NOT generally sack/raze the city (economic resources were their primary interest in expansionism, a dead city cannot gather fine feathers, pan for gold, or harvest cacao beans), nor were they dragging people off to be sacrificed: Sacrifices weren't demanded as tax/tribute payments other. Even slaves as tax payments was pretty rare: We have 3 large surviving tax documents and slave payments only show up in one and only for a few towns out of hundreds.

Cortes made alliances not because other states (not tribes) resented Mexica rule, but because that hand-off political system where even subjects were effectively independent meant there was no collective national identity and it was in their interest to be fluidly shifting allegiances to gain influence, and if a subject basically got left alone anyways, pledging yourself as an ally or a subject to help somebody else topple your captial or take out your rivals so you can be in a higher political position in the new kingdom you helped prop up is a great method of political advancement: That's what was going on with Cortes and it's very common in Mesoamerica, the Aztec Empire itself came about in the same circumstance.

See: https://pastebin.com/VqW97h93

>>131263376
I'm shilling Onyx a lot, but it also does a great job of this: while the focus is more on gods, magic, and monster's, what look at the cities and societies we do get shows them, you know, as actual functioning societies with good and bad people and actual infrastructure and social classes and ethnic disputes.

Same for the other media I mentioned, even moreso

3/?

>>131267179
cont:

>>131267272
see the pastebin in >>131267179. What you posted is an extreme misunderstanding of the way the Aztec Empire worked politically. They were warmongering expansionists but very hands off with the places they did conquer as long as they coughed up economic goods as taxes. Cortes got allies not because they were opppressive and were resented, but because the hands off system enabled and encouraged opportunistic coups

Also that reminds me, for you, >>131263249 and >>131262995, sacrifice was a pan mesoamerican practice that basically every culture/civilization in the region did. So when I say the Aztec weren't demanding sacrifices as tribute, i'm not saying that there was no sacrifice in their subjects/vassals, just that the sacrifice that did occur was in accordance with their existing local customs.

>>131263354
There were a few states nearby the Aztec never conquered (see pic for reference, though this sadly excludes all the Maya states, the one that includes them I have is 2big for 4chan; see also the image I posted here >>>/v/602347671 showing how this and other maps don't convey how dense the region was with cities and towns)

Tlaxcala (and Huextozinco and Cholula) are the most famous example; though people mistake it for a subject which is why they think the Aztec were oppressive/dragged people off for sacrifices, when in reality Tlaxcala was a well-defended state they were trying to wear down to be able to conquer.

Another powerful enclave was the kingdom of Tututepec, the only unconquered state in Oaxaca: It was the remnant of a larger empire founded by the absolute gigachad 8 deer jaguar claw a few centuries prior. There was also Yopitzinco and Metztitlan, a Tlapanec and Otomi kingdom(s) respectively, but those 2 probably could have been conquered if the Aztec really felt the need to. Lastly, Teotitlan may or may not have been a vassal or an unconquered state the Aztec were on good terms with.

4/?

>>131267475
>>131263354
cont:

What seperates the Purepecha empire vs them is that at the time of contact, it was an actual rival power rather then just a tough-nut-to-crack: Tlaxcala was being worn down over time and would have been conquered if Cortes didn't show up, Tututepec probably could have been as well, and as I said, Teotitlan, Yopitzinco and Metzitlan were small potatoes without lucrative resources; but the Aztec never got close to doing real harm to the Purepecha and they had a cold war with fortified borders after attempted invasions and counteroffenses ended up going nowhere.

Sadly the lack of cities/towns is an issues with all maps, even ones that show the Maya region like

>>131267523
To be clear, I am not saying that the Aztec Empire was beloved as foreign state or as a dominant political force to it's subjects: It was still a large, expansionistic military power, and obviously even if you get mostly left alone, nobody likes paying taxes, especially at the threat of military retribution if you stop paying (though even you may not get sacked, often just re-conquered with your temples burned: full sacks/massacres/mass-enslaving was mostly if you incited OTHER cities to rebel)... I'm just saying that the idea that they were administratively onerous or demanded sacrifices is wrong. Also, keep in mind i'm also speaking in generalities: Sometimes they DID sack places they conquered, for example, it just wasn't the norm.

I think how they were viewed would really vary on a state by state basis: Tlaxcala obviously disliked them, since they were getting invaded, wheras Teotitlan was probably a independent state on good terms with them. Some subjects disliked them, while others in the core valley of Mexico area benefitted from the tax income to the area and their political marriages to Tenochtitlan as a result of the Aztec Empire's power. Some foreign states even joined it willingly as vassals for similar reasons or to get protection from rivals, etc

5/6

>>131267708
>>131267523
Also, I already go into this in the pastebin, but a particularly convincing point as to why I am blaming Cortes getting allies on opportunism then resentment, is beyond what I already said, almost every state that participated in the Siege of Tenochtitlan were core valley of Mexico and therefore benefitted from the Aztec Empire's expansionism, and they all only allied with Cortes AFTER Tenochtitlan was already ridden by smallpox, partially massacred, and Moctezuma II dead.

Tlaxcala joined before then, but as i've noted, it sort of had a unique position and actually DID dislike the Mexica for being a constant target of military aggression as a target for conquest. Huextozinco was the only other particpant in the siege not in the valley of mexico/part of the Aztec empire, and it had close political ties to Tlaxcala. The only other state involved that really had a particular reason to dislike Tenochtitlan/the Mexica was Texcoco, and that's because Texcoco was the second most powerful city in the empire and (as the Texcoca accounts say it, though there's some modern skepticism of this) was supposed to be on equal terms with Tenochtitlan but gradually got eclipsed in power.

Even then, only HALF of Texcoco sided with Cortes, namely the heir to the throne that didn't get Mexica support in the war of successon a few years prior, with that war ending in half the city being ruled by one heir and half the other. (on that note, simply because the Aztec empire didn't do direct mangement and imperalism isn't to say they didn't do indirect stuff like this, though again, not super commonly). And even even then, Texcoco still only joined after Tenochtitlan was vulnerable.

6/7, need more

>>131267834
cont:

>>131267219
People with specific handicaps were used as court jesters or courtiers; most often those with dwarfism and hunchbacks (they were associated with the rain deities), and IIRC also some with mental disabilities.. Again, like in Europe, this was also partially a position of respect and power, in that they were seen as advisors or as seers with supernatural insight.

In Tenochtitlan, many actually lived in Moctezuma's zoo, though that sounds worse then it was, since the zoo also contained housing for other royal attendants, officials, and concubines, so in reality it was more like a section of the zoo also just had sleeping chamber for officials in addition to the actual zoo/aquarium part... though I guess less charitably, you could also argue that it was a sign of objectification for all of them beneath the king. It's also of course possible that there was a spectrum here, and that for the hunchbacks/dwarves and concubines in particular, it was more a mix of both: The reality is I don't think we know the symbolism and connotations for sure.

It is also said parents would donate such children to the palaces/zoo. I'm doing this off of memory, I don't have my source in front of my, but I recall this being presented as "because they were well cared for", but on the flip side, I guess you could interpet it as the parents wanting to be rid of them. And sometimes their supernatural ties meant they (and some people with other disabilities) got selected for specific sacrifices that called for it, as well. (volunteering for sacrifice, or in some cases kids, was a thing too, so you could also argue some may have been groomed into that)

So it's sort of a mixed bag depending on how you wanna read into it and how lucky/unlucky they got.

As I said in >>131267059 though, that's not the approach I would take with Mesoamerican joker. Maybe you could give him a slight hunchback?

7/8
>>131268045
cont:

>>131267911
I already gave multiple shorter tl;drs on it, like the one from >>131267475:

>see the pastebin in >>131267179....They were warmongering expansionists but very hands off with the places they did conquer as long as they coughed up economic goods as taxes. Cortes got allies not because they were oppressivel and were resented, but because the hands off system enabled and encouraged opportunistic coups...sacrifice was a pan mesoamerican practice that basically every culture/civilization in the region did...i'm not saying that there was no sacrifice in their subjects/vassals, just that the sacrifice that did occur was in accordance with their existing local customs.

If that's still too long for you then too bad, I guess.

As I also noted before I really don't care about if you wanna consider them bad or evil, I just wanna make sure people have accurate information and aren't having double standards. Draw your own moral conclusions.

>>131268047
I actually really need to head to bed, but I can chime in in the thread is still up tommorow. And yeah, from the Conquistador perspective, it seems like Cortes "liberating" subject states or turning them against each other, but (and the pastebin goes into this) in reality the Mesoamerican states were playing Cortes against one another too, with this sort of backstabby, ever-shifting-of-alliances and ganging up on existing rivals and captials being pretty typical in the region, due to the more hands off political models in the region being common: It just backfired because Spain wasn't playing the same political game (at least in the long run, in some places it worked out for the first few decades) with the states that pledged themselves as subjects gaining/retaining power and did colonialism instead; and epidemics happened.

If you or anybody else wants more resources, my directories are here: https://desuarchive.org/his/thread/12600924/#12604922

8/8 for now.

8DOp6Fm.jpg


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TnedNcp.jpg


7D45etd.png


There are several empires and kingdoms in Mesoamerica, with writing, laws and more. Here are reddit texts about it (from u/jabberwockxeno):


Most people are aware that the Mesoamericans, such as the Aztec, Maya, etc built big pyramids, were good at mathematics and calendars... that's pretty much it.

What if I also told you that their cities rivaled what you saw in Ancient Greece and even contemporary 16th century europe, with populations in the tens to even hundreds of thousands, with sewage systems, plumbing, pressurized fountains, and toilets, and even some build on lakes out of artificial islands, with grids of canals and gardens throughout? Or how their sanitation and medical practices were some of the most advanced in the world, with buildings and streets washed daily, people bathing multiple times a week; strict grooming and hygine standards, state ran hosptials, and empirically based medicaltreatements and taxonomic categorizational systems for herbs, flowers, and other plant life? That they had formal, bureaucratic governments with courts and legal systems?

It one of only 3 places in the world where writing was independently invented: Not just with simple pictographic scripts, either: the infamous Maya hieroglyphs are actually a full, true written language, with many other Mesoamerican scripts having varying degrees of phonetic elements as well.. They had books, too, made of paper made from tree bark

The Maya, in addition to keeping books, would meticulously catalog the political history and lives of their rulers into stone stela: To this day we have detailed family trees, and records of who did what on what day, records of wars, political marriages, and the like thank to those. For the Aztec, in addition to professional philosophers, called tlamatini, who would often teach at schools for the children of nobility (though even commoners attended schools, too in what was possible the world's first state-ran education system), for example, we have remaining works of poetry, as this excerpt from 1491, New Revelations of the Americas From Before Columbus, shows

I cannot recommend reading that entire excerpt enough, but I will post a short excerpt to entice people to:

"Truly do we live on Earth?" asked a poem... attributed to Nezahualcóyotl (1402–72), a founding figure in Mesoamerican thought and the tlatoani of Texcoco... His lyric, among the most famous in the Nahuatl canon, answers its own question:


Not forever on earth; only a little while here. Be it jade, it shatters. Be it gold, it breaks. Be it a quetzal feather, it tears apart Not forever on earth; only a little while here




....thinkers in many cultures have drawn solace from the prospect of life after death.... "Do flowers go to the region of the dead?" Nezahualcóyotl asked. "In the Beyond, are we still dead or do we live?" Many if not most tlamatinime saw existence as Nabokov feared: "a brief crack of light between two eternities of darkness."




....one exit from this philosophical blind alley was seen by the fifteenth-century poet Ayocuan Cuetzpaltzin, who described it metaphorically... by invoking the coyolli bird, known for its bell-like song:


He goes his way singing, offering flowers. And his words rain down Like jade and quetzal plumes. Is this what pleases the Giver of Life? Is that the only truth on earth?


...the Nahuatl context..."Flowers and song" was a.... double epithet for poetry... "jade and quetzal feathers" was a synecdoche for great value, in the way that Europeans might refer to "gold and silver." The song of the bird, spontaneously produced, stands for aesthetic inspiration. Ayocuan was suggesting, León-Portilla said, that there is a time when humankind can touch the enduring truths that underlie our fleeting lives. That time is at the moment of artistic creation


Other good writups on Aztec ethical philosophy is here and here, and I talk about their metaphysical philsophy here

Nezahualcóyotl, mentioned above, is also famous for being an engineer, he designed Tenochtitlan (the Aztec captial)'s aqueduct (a few miles long and with two pipes and a switching mechanism, so one pipe could transfer water while the other was cleaned out); the dike that controlled water flow across the lake both cities and many others were built on or around, separating it into a brackish and fresh water sides; as well as the watering systems of the gardens and baths used by Texcoco's royalty at Texcotzinco, where water was transported from a mountain range 5 miles away, the aquaduct at some point raising 150ft off the ground, onto a hill, where the water flowed into a series of channels and pools to control it's flow, before crossing over another aquaduct over a huge gorge, around a second hill forming a circuit around it's peak, filled the baths and a series of shrines and aeshetic displays with fountains, frescos, relifs, etc, and dropped water off via artificial waterfalls around key points of the gardens below, which had different sections designed to emulate different Mexican biomes and their specific native flora.

Another figure is Tlahuicole a warrior from the republic of Tlaxcala, who, due to being such a badass, was the sole person ever offered his freedom by the Aztecs instead of being sacrificed, but he refused, before Montezuma II eventually convinced him to lead one of his armies against the Purepecha empire to the west, which he accepted, hoping to die in battle, except he kicked their asses, returned back tto Montezuma, insisted be sacrificed again,which involved him being drugged, tied to a stone, and forced to fight elite warriors,with him armed only with a mock weapon, and he STILL managed to take out 8 of them

Or the Mixtec Warlord 8-deer, as this post by /u/snickeringshadow explains, which I will post an excerpt of:

He was born in 1063 AD to the son of the high priest of a town called Tilantogo. He made a name for himself fighting as a general for the lord of a town called Jaltepec. At 20, he managed to convince one of the oracles to allow him to invade the lands of the Chatino people on the Pacific coast and found a new town there, Tututepec (which later grew into a massive city-state that successfully resisted the Aztec Empire). While he was away, the lord of his home town of Tilantongo died with no heirs, and Eight-Deer inherited the throne


When he got back to Tilantongo, he made an alliance with a group called the Toltecs, who bestowed on him a noble title. Now that he had an outside source of legitimacy, he felt that he didn't need to play by the oracles' rules anymore and went on a warpath. He conquers a huge swath of the Mixtec region. He even invades his wife's home town and kills every single member of his wife's family except an infant named 4-Wind. In a classic ironic twist, the little boy he let live grows up to an adult and ends up assassinating his uncle Eight-Deer. After his death, his empire in the highlands crumbles and the Mixtecs go back to the same warring dynastic feuds they'd been fighting for centuries.



So, why don't we teach about Mesoameriican literature and key historical figures like we do the greeks?

Of the thousands of written works over nearly 2000 years, less then 20 are left. The Spanish burned them all. In terms of paintings, jewelry, sculpture, and crafted art, it was all almost destroyed or melted down, too.

As /u/snickeringshadow put in a higher level post to what I linked before

From the eight surviving Mixtec codices, we can reconstruct the history of this one valley in Oaxaca going back 800 years...had the other books survived, we would have something approaching a complete history....going back to the Early Postclassic, and in some regions probably earlier. Put simply, the Spanish book burning is why we talk about Mesoamerica in archaeology classes and not history classes


or as /u/Ahhuatl puts in this what if post, if their works survived:

...their successors would look to the Aztecs just like modern Westerners... to.... Greece. For Europe.... the abilities of the Native American mind could not be denied or rationalized away. It would have meant the injection of new arts, philosophy, mathematics, methods of agriculture, values, history, drama and more. What we lost in the Conquest is unimaginable. Inconceivable. Akin to knowing nothing about Caesar or Confucius or Rameses beyond what color bowl they ate out of

If you look at modern games, movies, anime, comics, and see the massive influence and cultural mixing between the West and the East, with the amount of products and media influenced by japan etc that's what we lost out on: An entire third pillar of human history and culture, gone

We even have a taste of what this could have been: In the early colonial era, we have the Spanish commission native featherworkers to produce amazing paintings, made not of paint, but of thousands of feathers, so finely weaved together that you can't even tell they aren't normal paintings without a magnifying lense (or a gigapixel photograph)


That being said, While virtually all but a few examples of pre-contact writing books survive, thankfully much of the Maya's stone inscriptions do, so there's a ton of detailed information on the political histories of certain Maya cities: The births and deaths of rulers, wars, alliances, political marriages, etc, albiet in a sort of barbones, dry "On X date Y happened" format, usually

Also, there are outright hundreds of manuscripts and documents in both Spanish and Nahuatl (the Aztec language) by Spanish Friars and Aztec nobles detailing their society and history in depth from the early colonial period: For example, Duran's History of the Indies of New Spain has hundreds of pages of detailed Aztec history (albeit obviously romanticized and propagandized to a degree, like most ancient historical records) down to specific statements by specific political official's; while Sahagun's similarly titled A General History of the Things of New Spain is 2000 pages of detailed information on history, society, religion, cultural norms, etc; down to the specific processes used to make metal jewelry, figures of speech and metaphors, medical treatments, etc. There's outright enough information that there have been entire books written solely about specific Aztec politicians, such as *Tlacaelel Remembered: Mastermind of the Aztec Empire * and The Allure of Nezahualcoyotl: Pre-Hispanic History, Religion, and Nahua Poetics

The quote I gave last comment by /u/Ahhuatl also outlines how we have a notable 8 surviving Mixtec books, which document the political history of many Mixtec cities in the same way Maya inscriptions did. Other civilizations such as the Zapotec, Purepecha, Totonac, Otomi, etc do not fare as well, and we have mostly archaeological data to go off of, with only a few colional era sources detailing their history and culture if at all, but archaeology alone can tell you more then you might think

So there's more then enough info that we really should and could be teaching people about it all in schools more then we do. This post and it's responses, particularly by /u/400-rabbits, goes into this more.

Schools and educators could do way, way more to be teaching people about the history and culture of these civilizations: The fact that we do only teach people here in the US about the Aztec, Maya, and Olmec (The Inca are from an entirely seperate region, with their own dozens of civilizations) and not much about them other then "Big Heads, Pyramids, Calenders, and Human sacrifice" and the Spanish Conquest is a travesty. And lessons on the Conquest itself is taught poorly: People are taught it ended in 1521 with the fall of the Aztec capital or that a bunch of other city-states allied with the Spanish due to Aztec oppression, but in reality there were hundreds of other non Aztec-affiliated city-states and empires in the region, and a few former Aztec ones, that did not cede to Spanish authority: It took decades of hard fighting, with most of it being done by native armies and soldiers for most of the region to be pacified, even as it was being crippled by diseases, and most of the city-states that allied with Cortes did so out of geopolitical opportunism rather then any sort of hatred for the Aztec; and in general, people are taught that the Spanish Conquest was some unavoidable thing, when it was very possible for it to have not succeeded


So, For more information:

I have a list of around 100 askhistorian posts about Mesoamerican history here, which can be a great starting point

I also have a personal booklist, but as it's unorganized, and some are just stuff I thought seemed cool rather then recommendations from knowledgeable people but that's here. Worth noting that there's also some stuff on the Andes in both pastebins, not just Mesoamerica; and that the booklist is primarily focused on modern works about Mesoamerican history: Primary and secondary sources, such as actual native texts, accounts from conquistadors/friars, are excluded, such as:

  • Fernando de Alva Cortés Ixtlilxóchitl's works
  • Bernardino de Sahagún's Florentine Codex
  • Diego Duran's History of the Indies of New Spain
  • Fernando Alvarado Tezozómoc's Crónica Mexicayotl
  • Diego Muñoz Camargo's History of Tlaxcala
  • Chimalpahin/Chimalpain Cuauhtlehuanitzin/Quauhtlehuanitzin's works, such as the Codex Chimalpahin
  • Juan Bautista Pomar's Relación de Texcoco, Relación de Juan Bautista Pomar, and Romances de los señores de Nueva España
  • The Cantares Mexicanos
  • Cortes's letters
  • Bernal Diaz del Castillo's The True History of the Conquest of New Spain
  • An Anonymous Conquistador's Narrative of Some Things of New Spain
I exclude these from the booklist since 1. many of these don't have english translations, and 2. you really need some sort of accompanying work from modern authors that point out their issues, since while they are invaluable there are bias issues; and for many I don't know what a good set of annotations are/what's the best translations, and for the ones I do, I haven't sat down and made a list yet, will update this comment when I do.

Also, r/Askhistorians has a booklist here: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/wiki/books/americas/latinamerica#wiki_pre-columbian

FAMSI is also a fantastic resource, though it might be a bit hard to parse for newcomers. Mexicolore is easily digestable and has a lot of good, neat info, but there's some errors mixed in there since whle it has a lot of articles written by experts, the site's owners themselves aren't historians, so as with FAMSI it might be better to read the askhistorians links first so you can have a foundation to know what seems suspect or not.

In terms of art rather then information, such as artistic recreations:

  • Angus Mcbride
  • H. Tom Hall
  • Louis S. Glanzman
  • Scott and Stuart Gentling
  • Tomas J. Filsinger
  • Kamazotz/Zotzcomic on twitter/deviantart/facebook
  • OHS688 on Twitter (Note: incluides furry content at times)
  • Rafael Mena on Artstation/Deviantart
  • Nosuku-K on Deivantart and pixiv (Note: are chibi styled, but are generally accurate despite that)
  • Paul Guinan's Aztec Empire comic
I have a lot of art from all of these sources saved, and many, such as the Gentlings, can be hard to find, but I'm happy to share what I got if somebody PM's me. There's a bunch more artists, too, but i'm hitting the character limit.

Also, for specific reddit users, check out any and all posts made by /u/400-rabbits, /u/Mictlantecuhtl, /u/Ucumu, who are all experts. I'm not an expert, but I also frequently make comments about Mesoamerican history. I've linked to a lot of the good ones i';ve made over the course of this, and I don't have time to figure out which ones I didn't link to here yet (I know this post talking about how "Aztec" can mean different things, this 25,000 character writeup talking about Aztec warfare, this writup on the diversity of Mesoamerican weapons, or this comment about why they seemingly didn't use wheels for transportation or metal arms/armor; or this comment on the city of teotihuacan; this comment on Mesoamerican urban design norms, or this regarding buildings/their paint) but I might go back and edit this comment/this whole series with more stuff/that sort of thing.

Lastly, Kings & Generals and Invicta on youtube have some great videos on the Aztec and Maya, easily the best on youtube; and there's the underrated and underviewed Aztlan Historian who focuses on Mesoamerican history.

And finally, for you /u/voyagoer , I'll end this with this summary of Mesoamerican history, Use this image to give some geographic context to the cities mentioned, and know that the Preclassic Period covers roughly 1400BC to 100AD, the Classic 200AD to 800AD, and Postclassic 900AD to 1521AD, arguably 1697, when the last Maya city-state falls to the Spanish

The Preclassic Period

In 1400 BC, around the Gulf Coast of the Isthmus of Tehuantepec, the Olmec site of San Lorezno becomes the region's first urban center in 1400 BC, and becomes abandoned by 900 BC, where the more properly urban and socially complex city of La Venta rises to prominence, which is also when our sole example of Olmec writing dates back to. In the following centuries, urban, state societies continue to pop up, notable ones being the early Maya cities such as El Mirador and Kaminaljuyu; the Zapotec city of Monte Alban in Oaxaca, and the rise of the Epi-Olmec culture out of the ashes of the Olmec; and all 3 develop writing; with many other independent towns and some cities popping up all over. In Western Mexico, during the same period as the Olmec the Capacha are a culture that developed independently from them, with far reaching examples of pottery and likely trade, but we don't know much about them or Western Mexican cultures in general

The Early Classic Period

By around 0-200AD, urban cities with state governments and writing (for the elite, anyways) had become the norm in Mesoamerica, marking the transition to the Classical Period. The Maya are at their height here, with many dozens of large, notable city-states & kingdoms, and thousands of smaller towns all over the Yucatan. Down in Oaxcaca, The Zapotec too have formed many city-states, with Monte Alban in particular rising as the most politically powerful. In Central Mexico, in the Valley of Mexico (in what's now Mexico City, I go into more detail about the area's history here ) a volcanic eruption displaces much of the population, including the city of Cuicuilco, the most powerful city in the area. These displaced people immigrate into the city of Teotihuacan, which grows into a huge influential political and religious center, and with a population of up to 150,000, and eclipsing Rome in physical area, while also having a sewage system and housing even their commoners in lavish palace complexes; and is one of the largest cities in the world at the time (El Mirador was as well). Teotihuacan's influence reaches far across the region, establishing many far reaching architectural, artistic, and religious trends, such as the Talud-tablero archtectural style for pyramids, perhaps even conquering and installing rulers in Maya cities 1000 kilometers away. In western mexico, around the end of the preclassic and start of the classic, the Teuchitlan tradition, the first of Western Mexico's complex societies, emerges (maybe, again, Western Mexico's cultures are very understudied), though less so then the rest of the region

The Late Classic Period

In the latter half of the classic period, you see the rise of El Tajin as a notable influential center among the cities around the Gulf Coast in what's now Central State of Veracruz (the cities/culture there now referred to as the "Classic Veracruz") and Cholula as a notable city in Central Mexico; Monte Alban begins to fall in esteem, with the Zapotec city of Mitla becoming the most prominent city in Oaxaca instead. Teotihuacan begins to decline as well, and in the Yucatan, the cities of Tikal and Calakmul become essentially two super-power city-states among the Maya, centralizing Maya geopolitics around them. Eventually Tikal and it's allies are able to put down Calakmul, shortly thereafter, you have the classical Maya collapse, where due to a combination of political instability following this massive war, climate issues, and other factors, nearly all of the large powerful Maya urban centers in the southern Yucatan decline between 700 and 800 AD, with many other key centers around Mesoamerica also doing so. Throughout the Late Classic and Early-Postclassic, West Mexico develops many different city-states with increasing influence from the rest of Mesoamerica

The Early Post-Classic Period

Moving into the Early-postclassic, yet many other cities still thrive and survive, such as El Tajin and Cholula, as do Maya city-states in the Northern Yucatan, such as Chichen Itza and Uxmal. You begin to see the Mixtec in the Oaxaca and Guerrero regions begin to overtake the Zapotec in prominence, in particular a warlord by the name of 8-Deer-Jaguar-Claw conquered and unified nearly the entire southern Oaxaca/Guerrero region into an empire. 8-deer had the blessings and support of the Toltec in Central Mexico (namely the Lord of Cholula), which were apparently, like Teotihuacan before them, a massively influential and far reaching power in the region, maybe operating out of the city of Tula, though most of our accounts of Toltec history and key rulers (such as Ce Acatl Topiltzin) are from Aztec accounts and are heavily mythologized. As a result, it's hard to separate history from myth (or from Aztec and latter Spanish attempts to twist Toltec accounts to justify their rule). Around 1100 AD, the Toltecs fall, and 8-deer is overthrown and killed in an ironic twist of fate where the one member of his enemies family who he left alive rallied a bunch of subject cities against him; though Tututepec, a city he founded, would grow into a major state of it's own.

The Late Post-Classic Period

In the 1200's, The Maya city of Mayapan comes closest to forming a unified Maya state, forming a political alliance of many of the city-states in the northern Yucatan. Due to droughts in northern mexico, you begin to see some groups of Chichimeca (nomadic tribes of Northern Mexico), the Nahuas, move further south into Central and Southern Mexico, and transition into urban societies. Notably many settling around the Valley of Mexico and the surrounding areas, led by the legendary King Xototl, displacing local Otomi cities/towns. In particular, the city of Azcapotzalco, which claims heredity from Xolotl, eventually dominates the valley. During the same time as all this in western Mexico, a Nahua group moved down into the Lake Pátzcuaro region, and takes over and becomes the ruling class of Purepecha city of of Pátzcuaro, which conquers many other cities in the area

In the 1420's, due to a succession crisis in Azcapotzalco, one of it's two heirs assassinates the other, as well as the then king of Tenochtitlan, which was one of Azcapotzalco's vassal, tributary cities; as he also had had genealogical links to the Azcapotzalco royal line and also represented a succession threat. War breaks out, and Tenochtitlan, along with the city-states of Texcoco, and Tlacopan join forces and overthrow them, forming the Aztec triple alliance ((This is a fantastic video on this succession conflict in particular, with hardly any errors (he used a statue of Coatlicue when talking about Huitzilptiochli; repeats the "80,000 sacrifices in 4 days" myth, but that's it ) ). Over the next 100 years, they rapidly expand and conquer almost all of Central and Southern Mexico, including Otomi cities/towns in Central Mexico, Totonac and Huastec ones along the Gulf Coast (who now inhabit that area), Mixtec, Zapotec, and Tlapanec ones in Oaxaca and Guerrero, and many others.

Back to Western Mexico, in the 1450's, Pátzcuaro is overthrown by the fellow Purepecha city of Tzintzuntzan, who rapidly expands to form the Purepecha/Tarascan empire, who would be the Aztec empire's only real competition and repel numerous invasions from them, preventing their expansion and conquest over the city-states and kingdoms further West such as Colmia and Jalisco; With the Aztec and Purepecha unable to make each other budge, the Aztec, as the Spanish arrive, are in the process of expanding to the east, and starting to make inroads at Maya towns, as well as trying to besiege and blockade Tlaxcala, a unified republic of 4 Nahua city-states (complete with senate) in an adjacent valley from the Valley of Mexico (alongside Cholula, Huextozinco, and some other cities/towns) who had been able to escape conquest due to their defensible position (other notable unconquered enclaves being the Mixtec kingdom of Tututepec, the Tlapenec kingdom of Yopitzinco, and the Otomi kingdom of Metztitlan.

This is the state of things when the Spanish arrive


Again, tho this is a really short summary. If you want to know more about specific wars, rulers, people's daily lives, etc; please check out the links i've been posting and the resources I provide

It is also worth noting that down in South America, there's an entirely separate cradle of civilizations in the Andes, to which the Inca belong to. I am far less informed on Andean civilizations, but they have their own long history: In addition to the Inca, you had the Moche and Chavin civilizations early on from 500BC-500AD, then the Wari and Tiwanku kingdoms over the next few centuries, the Sican civilization, and the Kingdom of Chimor during the early 2nd millenium AD which was the largest state in the region before the kingdom of Cusco conquered it and expanded as the Inca Empire, etc.


Firstly, this is a compressed, lower quality version of this map

Secondly, something I think is important to note is that,, firstly, most Mesoamerican states (The Purepecha Empire being an exception) did not have hard borders, wso depending on what geographic range you want to depict/argue a given town or city had effective control over, borders would shift (compare the territory of the Aztec empire here to this one for instance) and that with this map and most others, there is that there's way more cities and towns then what's shown, and if you don't realize that this is only showing particularly notable cities and captials of Aztec tributary/vassal provinces, it can be easy to be funder the impression that the region was much less densely populated then it really was.

For example, the map only shows 10 cities around the Valley of Mexico and it's lake basin, wheras in reality there were around 30-50 cities and large towns, and hundreds of smaller towns and hamlets. Granted, the Valley of Mexico is the most densely populated parts of Mesoamerica, but even looking at the more "rural" Purepecha Empire as you can see in these 4 images, there's still a notable amount more cities and towns then what the map depicts, and these are still excluding smaller towns and villages. A last example, this map is of the Valley of Mexico and the Adjacent Valley of Tlaxcala, and even though the Valley of Mexico part is still exclduing dozens of cities and hundreds of towns/villages, we can see the part covering the Tlaxcala valley is showing a little less then a dozen towns not shown in OP's map, stressing that, again, OP's map can be very misleading; and again, there's likey dozens more even these maps of the Purepecha Empire and the Valleh of Tlaxcala are excluding.

Speaking of Tlaxcala, in OP's map Tlaxcala ("Tlaxcallan"), Huextozinco, and Cholula ("Tollan-Collolan) are all listed under the "Tlaxcala confederacy", implying the Tlaxcala confederacy was those 3 cities. Wheras in reality, the 3 were 3 seperate city-states, and rather the "confederacy" of Tlaxcala was that what's marked as Tlaxcala/Tlaxcallan here and is the city-state of Tlaxcala was in fact 4 city-states that grew into one another and had a collective senate; complete with it's senators having to undergo 2 years of strict ethical and legal training and take public beatings to prove their commitment, though Tlaxcala also likely (as in, IIRC, not academically we aren't sure) had dominion over the dozen or so smaller towns around it. While I begrudge excluding those smaller towns due to the impression it gives of the region's lack of population density; they still at least likely fell under Tlaxcala's control as depedent/adjacent communities: On the other hand, CHolula and Huextozinco were their own city-states, so them being in the same color block as Tlaxcala under the "confederacy" label is pretty off.

Lastly, of course, this map completely neglects to depict the specific states, kingdoms, and cities and towns in the Maya area.

Compare and contrast OP's map and the ones I posted with this (and it's inset map of the Valley of Mexico and it's adjacent areas) , which depicts the Aztec-controlled (albiet, not directly governed) cities and towns in more detail/with more included, especially for the inset map (though even that inset map excludes a lot, since, it still does not show nearly as many as the Valley of Mexico specific map I posted earlier which shows hundreds rather then dozens of settlements), albiet at the cost of not depicting any non-Aztec borders at all; and this map (given how absurdly high res it is, it may be more convenient to view it here which downscales it while still just having it big enough to view town/city names if you zoom in) which is a nice balance in that it shows different states like OP's pic and unlike the former one, while also showing the maya states unlike both, while also showing a bit more (but still excluding a ton) cities and towns, but it can be misleading in that it also shows Central American groups and doesn't make a distinction between the more organized and densely populated state societies of Mesoamerica and the less stratified, organized, and populated tribes and chiefdom in central america.

EDIT:
Also, to get an idea of the size of the cities and such shown: The largest city in the region (and the Americas as a whole), Tenochtitlan had 200,000 to 250,000 people and covered around 13.5 square kilometers,which puts it on par with the largest cities in europe at the time in population and a few times larger in physical; expanse the city was also literally built on the lake with articficial islands and venice like canals. You can see some maps and visual recreations of Tenochtitlan here ,
However, Tenochtitlan, especially as of the time of Spanish contact, was an outlier in it's size as far as we know, as well as in it's urban design: Other cities and towns are harder to measure the size of, since unlike Tenochtitlan (and the metropolis of Teotihuacan from 1000 years earlier in the same valley, which was bigger then rome ); and European cities which tended to have set area/expanse with relatively even population density; instead most Mesoamerican cities had typically had a densely populated core and then a less dense series of suburbs, which then just gradually radiated out and increasingly became less dense, going from peri-urban to suburban to rural in density.., making defining where cities stopped and ended sort of difficult. a lot of the larger Classical Maya cities for examples had populations in the 60,000-100,000 range if you included, say, a 20ish square kilometer area around their core (in extreme cases the sprawls got so big it connected multiple urban cores, causing megalopolises whose full expanse could be multiple times that , like with Tikal ; but as far as i'm aware as of the time of contact in the late-postclassic (see the 3. bullet point link at the bottom of this comment for an explanation on the different eras of Mesoamerican history) you didn't see as large of sprawls as this, and that rather in the late-postclassic (going off of City Size in the Late Postclassic Mesoamerica by Micheal Smith, who is a renowned specialist in Mesoamerican urbanism) the average larger cities would have had an expanse of around 400 hectacres, including the core and suburbs, and 10,000 people though I think the Native Population of the Americas in 1492 2nd Edition by William M. Denevan gives higher numbers: Smith says Texcoco for example had around 20,000 inhabitants, while Denevan IIRC says 30,000 to 40,000; and elsewhere i've heard 60,000: It's possible Denevan is including more of the suburbs then Smith is, or Smith is only measuring the urban cores and not the suburbs at all (thoughj I don't think so).

Anyways, while Copan is a Classical Maya city, I think this art of Copan's main urban core and the direct adjacent landscaped suburbs (said suburbs further extended out to cover 24 square kilometers (labeled in this image as the "Copan Pocket"_ and 4x that or so if you include the even less dense rural spreads further out) gives a good idea what center of these sorts of towns and cities (aside from the more imporvished or truly small towns/villages) would have looked like, Classical Maya archtectural motifs aside. This recreation of the Zapotec city of Mitla during the Post-Classic is another example, alkbiet the city was at it's height larger then this many centuries prior in the Late Classic
Anyways, In general
  1. Mesoamerican (Aztec, Maya, etc) and Andean (Inca, Nazca, etc) socities are way more complex then people realize, in some ways matching or exceeding the accomplishments of civilizations from the Iron age and Classical Anitquity, etc
  2. There's also more records people are aware of for Mesoamerican ones in particular, with certain civilizations having hundreds of documents and records on them; and
  3. Most people are only taught about the Aztec, Maya, and Inca, but both regions have complex socities going back thousands of years with dozens of major civilizations/cultures and hundreds of speccific city-states, kingdoms, and empires
If you want to learn more info about Mesoamerican history and culture, check out the link in 2, it a large resource with more information, book suggestions, etc
 

DarthMasta

Member
Feb 17, 2018
3,885
Do they have a hat somewhere, where they place cards with settings, and once every often they pull it out to decide which Batman they're going to make next?

Wonder how much history they're going to inject into the story, or it'll just be a very light reskin of the Batman story.
 

Spring-Loaded

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,904
I'm excited for the movie, but why do they almost always choose to set the stories during the Spanish conquest? Mesoamerica has a pretty long history, here's an explanation from a thread on /co/:



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There are several empires and kingdoms in Mesoamerica, with writing, laws and more. Here are reddit texts about it (from u/jabberwockxeno):





I agree overall. They probably figured it'd make for easier villains, but it'd be better without that spectre of colonialism that plagues most of these settings in media