Having a game design dilemma. What would you do?

[PickledCucumber]

Hey everyone.

I'm in kind of a pickle and wonder what your thoughts are in the situation and how your handle it.

Spoiler

I hired an artist a few years ago to do artwork for a visual game and card game.

I had seen his work before and I thought (and still do) think it's amazing.

But, I didn't have a lot of cash, so I sent money for commissions every so often and, since I wasn't paying him a month's worth of income, of course he had to get other commissions from other people, which delayed my commissions.

So, I used a couple of 401k loans (which I'm a couple of months away from paying off) to pay for the art in a few big payments so he could focus on my commissions and there would be less delays.

But then, he kind of put my commissions to the side, and then he had major health issues for about a year, and it's not like he could pay me back since he spent the money and also was trying to fundraiser money for his medical expenses.

After a while, he got better and started working on my stuff, but because I had sent about $6,000 for the commissions, I didn't feel comfortable sending him more money, which meant he had to get new commissions to make money, which slowed down my commissions.

I tried looking for an artist that could replicate his art style, because the alternative would be to scrub ALL of the commissions he had already done and start all over again. Of course, I also wouldn't see the money I had already sent to him. And again, there's no way he could pay me back.

So, after looking and coming up short on finding an artist who came close to his art style, my artist and I came to an agreement: I would still send him money, but only half of what the commission is worth. The other half would be deducted from the "reserves," or money that I already had sent.

Seems like it was going well, but he just emailed me today and said he is having nerve issues and will have to get surgery next month.

I believe him. I tend to deal with health issues that screw up all of my plans, and can empathize.

But... I don't know... I was hoping I would release a short visual novel by the time the pandemic ends and kickstart the card game next year.

A couple of lawyers I know said to sue him and stuff, but the guy has no money.

This was a big dream of mine, but now after all these years and all this money I've spent (not just for art, but other things too for these projects, I'm starting to think I should give up on this dream.

When it comes to card games, you have to have 3 sets ready by the time the first set is being released.

And because I haven't made any revenue on the project, I can't declare these expenses as business expenses. At least not anymore according to my tax person. It's just seen as a "hobby."

 

[Xavi]

I

 

[Lant_War]

You

 

[Nazgûl]

I

 

[GovernWort]

Made

 

[Mass Effect]

U?

 

[PickledCucumber]

Uh... I wasn't done with my thread... The page just refreshed and posted it...

 

[PickledCucumber]

Can a mod change the title to "Having a game design dilemma. What would you do?"

 

[zma1013]

I or l?

 

[Eeyore]

Uh... I wasn't done with my thread... It just refreshed and posted it...

Click to shrink...

Maybe you could ask a mod to pause the thread until it's ready.

 

[Combichristoffersen]

I

Wanna rock n roll all nite

 

[DrEvil]

This is what contracts are for.

 

[nsilvias]

 

[Wander_]

| ))

 

[OtisSpunkmeijer]

Yes it was I!

But in all seriousness, that's a rough situation for you both to be in. Not sure what else to say except good luck and hope it works out!

 

[Akira86]

EYE

- suggest you don't give up on your dream. be more careful and if you need to get someone to reuse his art and do a salvage job, do it.

Don't rel-EYE on this guy anymore though.

 

[shark97]

401k loans=no bueno, and a sign of deeper fiscal issues imo.

but hey if you're using it to bootstrap something you'll make a lot of money off, i guess i would be wrong.

 

[Kickfister]

Sounds like an irreconcilable issue, assuming you don't want to be a dick and sue them. It's a tough spot to be in OP, not sure anybody could give you the magic right answer :(

 

[PickledCucumber]

Maybe you could ask a mod to pause the thread until it's ready.

Click to shrink...

Yeah I should have. Now all the first replies are bunch of (funny, but annoying) jokes unrelated to the thread...

 

[rpm]

I'm no finance expert but isn't taking out a 401k loan a bad idea

Seems like a rough situation. I don't think there's much else you can do besides sue, but like you said, if he doesn't have any money, then he doesn't have any money. Sending more money without receiving anything yet also seems like a bad idea

 

[kubev]

I don't think it's unreasonable to contact the first artist and insist that he work the commissions into his schedule. Whether he has to take new commissions in the meantime to get by doesn't mean he shouldn't feel obligated to work his old (and already paid) commissions into his schedule to get caught up. In either case, surely there has to be some way of vetting artists to ensure reliability and accountability. Where are you finding these people?

 

[PickledCucumber]

I don't think it's unreasonable to contact the first artist and insist that he work the commissions into his schedule. Whether he has to take new commissions in the meantime to get by doesn't mean he shouldn't feel obligated to work his old (and already paid) commissions into his schedule to get caught up. In either case, surely there has to be some way of vetting artists to ensure reliability and accountability. Where are you finding these people?

Click to shrink...

DeviantArt.

He had a good record and was also working on another game.

He is well known by many artists and the DeviantArt users.

Shit just happened and he dealt with major health issues.

 

[Akira86]

I'm no finance expert but isn't taking out a 401k loan a bad idea

Click to shrink...

usually referred to as a gamble. but lots of people trying to start out end up making some sort of gamble, one way or another.

OP, maybe you can come to another agreement with him to help you salvage what's been worked on already. Or someway support you as you move on, in order to avoid the necessary legal action that your company suggests.

 

[PickledCucumber]

usually referred to as a gamble. but lots of people trying to start out end up making some sort of gamble, one way or another.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, I at least one tabletop game designer who maxed out his credit cards to fund his game.

I believe the game ended up getting made and was successful (in tabletop game sale terms, I mean).

 

[Pai Pai Master]

If there was no contract for the commission then you're at the mercy of whenever they feel like/can finish it.

 

[Timeaisis]

Well don't give him any more money and find a new artist. He's playing you, mate.

 

[Saikyo]

Give up on him and comission new art with another artist, tell him you are sorry but you need to move on and want to release your game this year.

 

[Faddy]

I think the best thing is to definitively end your agreement. No further payments, you get the work that has been completed and can fulfill the rest of the project in the same art style.

From your story it seems to me that suing is not going to get you the money owed and you will only rack up your own time and legal fees in pursuing him through the courts. As well as putting someone who is struggling with health under additional stress.

As far as lacking revenue you could try to raise some funding for the project through kickstarter/patreon.

 

[mutantmagnet]

$6000 paid so far? He owes you work.

If I was in your shoes I would want that work to be completed one way or the other.

Set a firm deadline to have this work completed by the end of February and strongly consider sueing him or finding other legal solutions to get that work done.

 

[MP!]

Just move to another artist ... no hard feelings... its just business.
Get the rest of the work from him out of another project or later on down the road... or maybe marketing materials or kickstarter art

 

[cyrribrae]

Hey everyone.

I'm in kind of a pickle and wonder what your thoughts are in the situation and how your handle it.

Spoiler

I hired an artist a few years ago to do artwork for a visual game and card game.

I had seen his work before and I thought (and still do) think it's amazing.

But, I didn't have a lot of cash, so I sent money for commissions every so often and, since I wasn't paying him a month's worth of income, of course he had to get other commissions from other people, which delayed my commissions.

So, I used a couple of 401k loans (which I'm a couple of months away from paying off) to pay for the art in a few big payments so he could focus on my commissions and there would be less delays.

But then, he kind of put my commissions to the side, and then he had major health issues for about a year, and it's not like he could pay me back since he spent the money and also was trying to fundraiser money for his medical expenses.

After a while, he got better and started working on my stuff, but because I had sent about $6,000 for the commissions, I didn't feel comfortable sending him more money, which meant he had to get new commissions to make money, which slowed down my commissions.

I tried looking for an artist that could replicate his art style, because the alternative would be to scrub ALL of the commissions he had already done and start all over again. Of course, I also wouldn't see the money I had already sent to him. And again, there's no way he could pay me back.

So, after looking and coming up short on finding an artist who came close to his art style, my artist and I came to an agreement: I would still send him money, but only half of what the commission is worth. The other half would be deducted from the "reserves," or money that I already had sent.

Seems like it was going well, but he just emailed me today and said he is having nerve issues and will have to get surgery next month.

I believe him. I tend to deal with health issues that screw up all of my plans, and can empathize.

But... I don't know... I was hoping I would release a short visual novel by the time the pandemic ends and kickstart the card game next year.

A couple of lawyers I know said to sue him and stuff, but the guy has no money.

This was a big dream of mine, but now after all these years and all this money I've spent (not just for art, but other things too for these projects, I'm starting to think I should give up on this dream.

When it comes to card games, you have to have 3 sets ready by the time the first set is being released.

And because I haven't made any revenue on the project, I can't declare these expenses as business expenses. At least not anymore according to my tax person. It's just seen as a "hobby."

Click to shrink...

Could you sell one copy to get revenue? o.O does that work?

Yea, what an incredibly crappy situation. Hope he gets better. How far off are you being done on all this stuff?

I don't know how feasible this is, but I feel like you could maybe get away with just.. not doing the rest in his style? Lack of perfect cohesion is a thing that even the biggest, best, most funded card games frequently feature. And if there's a significant backlog, there doesn't seem to be much for it.

 

[PickledCucumber]

Could you sell one copy to get revenue? o.O does that work?

Yea, what an incredibly crappy situation. Hope he gets better. How far off are you being done on all this stuff?

I don't know how feasible this is, but I feel like you could maybe get away with just.. not doing the rest in his style? Lack of perfect cohesion is a thing that even the biggest, best, most funded card games frequently feature. And if there's a significant backlog, there doesn't seem to be much for it.

Click to shrink...

It wasn't made very clear, but from my understanding, I'd have to make several hundred bucks in revenue to claim business expense.

It's still a ways away. For the card game, I still need a lot of art. I need variety in cards to create several different decks, and already start completing the second set and starting the third set before thinking of releasing the first one if I want to keep releasing expansions.

I originally planned on taking the Pokémon TCG route (various art styles for the art work). It's one of the reasons I love the Pokémon TCG.

The first prototype set that featured the art included western style art, anime style, etc. The beasts were handled by one artist, the anime characters by a few others. Certain themes would be done by one artist, etc.

But the feedback I got wasn't very positive. They preferred one art style (or very similar to it).

So I had to scrap the artwork I already had paid for (sort of; I had this current artist redo the designs in his art style, so it wasn't a waste for the most part).

There's a couple of artists that actually are close to his art style (at least one of them worked on a recent visual novel). I think they were all friends with my artist, too. But I think they're pretty much out of my league now.

 

[Tatsu91]

Hey everyone.

I'm in kind of a pickle and wonder what your thoughts are in the situation and how your handle it.

Spoiler

I hired an artist a few years ago to do artwork for a visual game and card game.

I had seen his work before and I thought (and still do) think it's amazing.

But, I didn't have a lot of cash, so I sent money for commissions every so often and, since I wasn't paying him a month's worth of income, of course he had to get other commissions from other people, which delayed my commissions.

So, I used a couple of 401k loans (which I'm a couple of months away from paying off) to pay for the art in a few big payments so he could focus on my commissions and there would be less delays.

But then, he kind of put my commissions to the side, and then he had major health issues for about a year, and it's not like he could pay me back since he spent the money and also was trying to fundraiser money for his medical expenses.

After a while, he got better and started working on my stuff, but because I had sent about $6,000 for the commissions, I didn't feel comfortable sending him more money, which meant he had to get new commissions to make money, which slowed down my commissions.

I tried looking for an artist that could replicate his art style, because the alternative would be to scrub ALL of the commissions he had already done and start all over again. Of course, I also wouldn't see the money I had already sent to him. And again, there's no way he could pay me back.

So, after looking and coming up short on finding an artist who came close to his art style, my artist and I came to an agreement: I would still send him money, but only half of what the commission is worth. The other half would be deducted from the "reserves," or money that I already had sent.

Seems like it was going well, but he just emailed me today and said he is having nerve issues and will have to get surgery next month.

I believe him. I tend to deal with health issues that screw up all of my plans, and can empathize.

But... I don't know... I was hoping I would release a short visual novel by the time the pandemic ends and kickstart the card game next year.

A couple of lawyers I know said to sue him and stuff, but the guy has no money.

This was a big dream of mine, but now after all these years and all this money I've spent (not just for art, but other things too for these projects, I'm starting to think I should give up on this dream.

When it comes to card games, you have to have 3 sets ready by the time the first set is being released.

And because I haven't made any revenue on the project, I can't declare these expenses as business expenses. At least not anymore according to my tax person. It's just seen as a "hobby."

Click to shrink...

Is he someone you consider a friend or is he someone you are strictly only doing business with.

 

[PickledCucumber]

Is he someone you consider a friend or is he someone you are strictly only doing business with.

Click to shrink...

It's... Complicated?

I see him more than a business partner, but less than a close friend.

I handled his GoFundMe to raise money for his medical costs, so there's SOME trust there I suppose.

 

[Tatsu91]

It's... Complicated?

I see him more than a business partner, but less than a close friend.

I handled his GoFundMe to raise money for his medical costs, so there's SOME trust there I suppose.

Click to shrink...

If he is someone strictly business i would say do not sue because well that is the asshole move of the year. But start setting loose deadlines. And suggest he maybe have someone he can teach his style help him if needed or search for alternatives that can make his job easier because their are tools that can help especially make digital art easier . Because you need work done but it is also not his fault so i feel he definitely should not be harshly punished.

 

[PickledCucumber]

Just move to another artist ... no hard feelings... its just business.
Get the rest of the work from him out of another project or later on down the road... or maybe marketing materials or kickstarter art

Click to shrink...

I was thinking about this...

I do have a lot of artwork already to work on a much smaller project (that can actually work as a prequel to the VN and card game). I'd just need a few more character models and some CGs for him to complete.

It's better than releasing nothing, gives the artist time to finish the rest of the work, AND maybe it can work as a marketing tool to hype up the main projects.

 

[BourbonJungle]

Was going to ask if you absolutely need his art to finish the game.

To speed things up can he send you some rough, unfinished pieces you can use as a placeholder to finish the design and bring it to a functional state where you can maybe bring in outside money or sell off a small stake in the game? Then he can polish off those images or you can afford to hire someone else who can better match his style or finish his drafts?

 

[cyrribrae]

It wasn't made very clear, but from my understanding, I'd have to make several hundred bucks in revenue to claim business expense.

It's still a ways away. For the card game, I still need a lot of art. I need variety in cards to create several different decks, and already start completing the second set and starting the third set before thinking of releasing the first one if I want to keep releasing expansions.

I originally planned on taking the Pokémon TCG route (various art styles for the art work). It's one of the reasons I love the Pokémon TCG.

The first prototype set that featured the art included western style art, anime style, etc. The beasts were handled by one artist, the anime characters by a few others. Certain themes would be done by one artist, etc.

But the feedback I got wasn't very positive. They preferred one art style (or very similar to it).

So I had to scrap the artwork I already had paid for (sort of; I had this current artist redo the designs in his art style, so it wasn't a waste for the most part).

There's a couple of artists that actually are close to his art style (at least one of them worked on a recent visual novel). I think they were all friends with my artist, too. But I think they're pretty much out of my league now.

Click to shrink...

How close are you to releasing a kickstarter, like you said? Would it be easier to release with NO art in the meantime (like many early access games)? And just focus on getting the first deck done and out to some backers, sort of thing? But that's a commitment in itself, I'm sure. I mean, it seems like YOU don't treat this guy like an asshole. And you honestly want the best for him. So, that probably "complicates things". I think it's clear that if he's gonna get surgery that he can't get any more money in the meantime, but also can't get work.

I guess props to you for having a "dilemma", at all. Seems like you're trying to do right by everyone as best you can.

I was thinking about this...

I do have a lot of artwork already to work on a much smaller project (that can actually work as a prequel to the VN and card game). I'd just need a few more character models and some CGs for him to complete.

It's better than releasing nothing, gives the artist time to finish the rest of the work, AND maybe it can work as a marketing tool to hype up the main projects.

Click to shrink...

Don't know if this would work at all, but might be a decent backer reward. Or thing to drum up interest yea..

 

[Chopchop]

That's a rough spot. I think it might help to break this down into individual issues, and then prioritize what you want for them.

The way I see it, your ideal goal is to release both your VN and your card game within your desired time frame, and exclusively with your artist's art.

Regarding your artist, I think it may be safe to assume that you probably won't receive work from him in the foreseeable future because of his health problems. It sucks, but if he's unable to work then there's nothing either of you can do to get art out of him. He still owes you art of course, but you have no way of collecting on either the art or the money in the near future since you don't want to sue (which I agree would be a horrible dick move), so you basically have no choice but to just wait for him to get better.

This means that your ideal situation of releasing your games within your time frame and using only your artist's art are mutually exclusive. So you have to choose between these two things:

• Delay your game releases until your artist recovers and can provide the art you commissioned.
• Work on hitting your release schedule without waiting for your artist, but compromise on your art in some way so that you don't need to rely on your artist to get a release out.

Personally I'd take the latter, because there is no way of knowing exactly when your artist will be able to work for you again. It's too much of an unknown to bank on.

If you choose the latter choice, then that leads to the next question: How do you want to compromise the art in a way that has the least negative impact on what you wanted to do with your games? Is having the art all uniformly from the same artist a must, or is it a "nice to have"?

If it's a must, then you basically have no choice but to wait for your artist in some way while still following your release schedule. So this means something like releasing your game in some sort of incomplete form, maybe with placeholder graphics, until your artist can deliver the finalized art.

If it's not a must, then you could loosen your artist choices and go back to your original idea of having multiple artists handling different things. I know you mentioned getting negative feedback over that, but having a game with inconsistent art is not completely unheard of (gacha games like Fire Emblem Heroes comes to mind), and it's better than not releasing your game at all. In this scenario, the work you commissioned from your artist would probably either be entirely passed up and replaced by someone else (I guess you could get a rain check on your commissions from him or something), or you could get placeholder art for now, that would then be replaced by your artist's work whenever he's able to deliver.

 

[Pyro]

Stop paying him whatsoever and keep going with the new artist.

 

[BigTime_2018]

Click to shrink...

Was just listening to this a few hours ago. Great song.

 

[PickledCucumber]

Thanks everyone for your responses.

There's a lot of good advice here.

How close are you to releasing a kickstarter, like you said? Would it be easier to release with NO art in the meantime (like many early access games)? And just focus on getting the first deck done and out to some backers, sort of thing? But that's a commitment in itself, I'm sure. I mean, it seems like YOU don't treat this guy like an asshole. And you honestly want the best for him. So, that probably "complicates things". I think it's clear that if he's gonna get surgery that he can't get any more money in the meantime, but also can't get work.

I guess props to you for having a "dilemma", at all. Seems like you're trying to do right by everyone as best you can.

Click to shrink...

Still a ways off. I really want to be over 70% done with the art.

I don't want to do a Kickstarter and then have delays. I'm worried people will call it "vaporwear", or a fake project, or ask for their money back (especially after the funds are used). That's why I want to complete more of the work.

As for an early access game... Not sure if that would work for a card game, but maybe for the VN. I'll think about it.

Chopchop you make a pretty good point about the latter idea. I am working with a different artist as well. He makes the character designs before I have the new artist redo them in his style. Considering all the work he's done, maybe I should just use those designs. The card game has been in limbo for a couple of years now. It's only a matter of time before someone comes up with similar mechanics, so maybe I should just do that.

BourbonJungle you also make a pretty good point and suggestion.

It's a really tough decision 😅