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Have we reached the point where there’s diminishing returns for graphics? Most if not all these games from PS5 event look like they could be PS4 games
- Thread starter warheat
- Start date
I'd probably need to see these games on a 55+ inch 4K TV and not on a compressed 1080/30 stream.
I also think a lot of the improvements under the hood with PS5/Xbox Series X won't scream on a phone screen; they'll be noticeable in user experience ways.
I also think a lot of the improvements under the hood with PS5/Xbox Series X won't scream on a phone screen; they'll be noticeable in user experience ways.
To push horizon's visual fidelity had meant some sacrifices like the water (no interactivity) and also the lack of interaction-with foliage.
Be interested to see these implemented in HZD2 alongside everything else they're doing. Be interesting to say the least
This legit looks like a linear progression to me:
It's a gradual and consistent progression into the legitimately Dreamworks CGI level visuals we're seeing today.
well the PS2 -> PS3 jump automatically throws off any "linear" progression. You can't say the difference between PS2 & 3 is similar in magnitude to the others. To me it looks like the level of progression halves with each console jump.
Most of the games look amazing and a clear step up on what can be done on PS4. Did any one watch the 4K trailers? The difference is clear as day.
Textbook example of diminishing returns. Diminishing returns doesn't imply lack of progression.This legit looks like a linear progression to me:
It's a gradual and consistent progression into the legitimately Dreamworks CGI level visuals we're seeing today.
give it a few years... I felt exactly the same about ps4 launch where all those game looked like ps3+
we eventually got stuff like bloodborne and uncharted 4 that clearly surpass ps3
It's just going to take some time...
It would have been smart of them though to have shown something CLEARLY next gen only... cause you're right a lot of what they showed looks cross gen.
we eventually got stuff like bloodborne and uncharted 4 that clearly surpass ps3
It's just going to take some time...
It would have been smart of them though to have shown something CLEARLY next gen only... cause you're right a lot of what they showed looks cross gen.
I don't understand "diminishing returns" arguments. Do 3D graphics look photorealistic? We won't hit diminishing returns until they do.
Here's a screenshot from a cutting edge game versus a screenshot from a live action movie:
We are decades away from "diminishing returns" in real-time computer graphics.
Ratchet and Horizon were the two standouts, but nothing shown made games on my PC look a generation behind. Not at all.
So in a way I think we have.
So in a way I think we have.
I'm glad someone have made a thread about this.
I mean there is a LOT to improve gfx wise :
But it seems that this console will be more of a revision aka XBOX VS XBOX X instead of been a next gen console.
For me this is a example where competition isn't always good. It's like that they have to release it. The should wait at least 2 years or so.
That said, a lot of those ps5 games look even worse that the latest ps4 game imo.;
+ Please stop positing none gameplay screenshots to prove something.
It's all about the gfx during gameplay.
I mean there is a LOT to improve gfx wise :
But it seems that this console will be more of a revision aka XBOX VS XBOX X instead of been a next gen console.
For me this is a example where competition isn't always good. It's like that they have to release it. The should wait at least 2 years or so.
That said, a lot of those ps5 games look even worse that the latest ps4 game imo.;
+ Please stop positing none gameplay screenshots to prove something.
It's all about the gfx during gameplay.
100% Watch this is 4K they look better than what I'm playing...
No the leap ain't Mario 64 from SNES, but it's a leap.
Ratchet/Horizon/GT7/Souls look insane in 4K
I'm glad someone have made a thread about this.
I mean there is a LOT to improve gfx wise :
But it seems that this console will be more of a revision aka XBOX VS XBOX X instead of been a next gen console.
For me this is a example where competition isn't always good. It's like that they have to release it. The should wait at least 2 years or so.
That said, a lot of those ps5 games look even worse that the latest ps4 game imo.;
I'll be sure to watch a random YouTube video to confirm your own biases, instead of watching 4K footage of these trailers. Continue to judge games based on 1080p 30 fps lossy super compressed streams though.
To be fair, the first two represent two generations in time, while the last two pics represent only one gen.Diminishing returns has always been a thing. As you approximate a recreation of real life, there's only so far you can go.
1997
2007
2017
Ya that's exactly what I'm thinking. Will get better AI and memory which there touting now but I beleive raw graphical power is going to be diminished in the eye of the beholder. Not saying underneath the surface there are complicated stuff that make it so it doesn't run on ps4 but for the average person it would look like it would be able to. Besides Rachet that was really impressive and a really good demonstration of the SSD!!!
It's literally not like a revision, because every single component was substantially upgraded. There's no comparison in power between last gen and this gen. The jump between PS4 Pro and PS5 is far larger than the jump between PS4 and PS4 Pro.I'm glad someone have made a thread about this.
I mean there is a LOT to improve gfx wise :
But it seems that this console will be more of a revision aka XBOX VS XBOX X instead of been a next gen console.
For me this is a example where competition isn't always good. It's like that they have to release it. The should wait at least 2 years or so.
That said, a lot of those ps5 games look even worse that the latest ps4 game imo.;
+ Please stop positing none gameplay screenshots to prove something.
It's all about the gfx during gameplay.
YOU may not see it immediately, but the specs show us these things.
Even if you assume this progression is linear, you have to consider that the hardware required to achieve it has not scaled linearly - hence the "diminishing returns". This is a tricky conversation because it ultimately rests on a subjective call on "how much better does this look". Like, it's hard to put a number on how much better the PS5 screenshot looks than the PS4 one. Is it 50% better? Is it 20% better? 100% better? How would you define that? But let's say you call it 50% better looking, for argument's sake. Achieving that requires a hardware performance increase several times greater than 50%.This legit looks like a linear progression to me:
It's a gradual and consistent progression into the legitimately Dreamworks CGI level visuals we're seeing today.
It's not about not having returns, it's about how they get harder/more expensive to achieve the higher you go.
And geometry, scale, asset complexity/density, animation quality...
This thread is an embarrassment.
i think the generational leap is massive, it's just not in the things people typically are looking at in shitty quality streams or still images.
Just looking at Clank alone from PS4 to PS5 is a massive jump, people just looking at Ratchet to show the difference aren't seeing how much raytracing and more natural lighting brings to the table.
And most importantly, due to ease of development, indies and AA pushing the envelope. Stray and Kena look insane for games developed by smaller teams. And I don't mean indie insane, I mean full AAA insane in some cases.
Yes, I can see that argument, which is why "diminishing returns" can be kind of a misleading decription. When your games are literally looking like CG movies, of course there's going to start to be diminishing returns. No different than how the jump from Toy Story 2 to Toy Story 3 was much larger than the jump from Toy Story 3 to Toy Story 4 despite them both being separated by 11 years.
Yeah I had exactly that thought :) What also helps is that tools like Unreal & Unity have matured a lot the past years. That, mixed up with some improvements regarding image quality makes a lot of these 'smaller' games look good. (not wanting to downplay the efforts of these developers, I was mostly impressed by some of the great design in Stray and animations in general0
Honestly this is what I'm most excited for next gen. Now smaller developers will be able to showcase there games in all there glory with no technical or money set backs hopefully because making better looking games become cheaper. Honestly at this point if AAA games stayed as good looking as they are now I would be fine haha
Oh really?! I saw some people talking about it in the chat and some of the presenters also looked a bit off to me - either photoshopped or touched up somehow.
It's getting closer but these graphics would stick out like sore thumb. Modern pre-rendered cgi is still its own class. Maybe it could match some cheaply rendered childrens tv series.
I don't quite understand the comparison with Pixar movies. I guess CGI in animated movies have hit diminishing returns much earlier, no one really comments on how good the graphics look anymore except when the story is bad like with the Good Dinosaur. You get more people asking why there aren't more stylised movies the look like Spiderverse and Paperman.
I'm glad someone noticed it too. Also most footage wasn't even gameplay. Don't confuse pre-rendered with gameplay.
Not gameplay:
Gameplay:
Also keep in mind that many games are downgraded afterwards after it was shown at e3.
I also mentioned this prev gen, I'm happy there are more people that see it happening and accept it.
It's a problem but I think they can fix it. The solution is already mentioned by Microsoft.
Think about phones and ipad. Some games will work on older ipads, other games only on the latest ipad.
Instead of releasing a ps5, you can release each year a slightly upgraded version, something like ps4 pro. It will also fix the +/- 7y waiting line.
Why would we need to wait on a console for 7 years, that maybe is already outdated again after a few years? Phones like iphone and samsung are even more expensive. You can choose when to update it. It's the perfect solution. You can even keep it cheap by working with modules. Like n64 memory pack, so you can keep the ssd and controllers. There is just so many better solution and it is the perfect time now to do it.
Not gameplay:
Gameplay:
Also keep in mind that many games are downgraded afterwards after it was shown at e3.
I also mentioned this prev gen, I'm happy there are more people that see it happening and accept it.
It's a problem but I think they can fix it. The solution is already mentioned by Microsoft.
Think about phones and ipad. Some games will work on older ipads, other games only on the latest ipad.
Instead of releasing a ps5, you can release each year a slightly upgraded version, something like ps4 pro. It will also fix the +/- 7y waiting line.
Why would we need to wait on a console for 7 years, that maybe is already outdated again after a few years? Phones like iphone and samsung are even more expensive. You can choose when to update it. It's the perfect solution. You can even keep it cheap by working with modules. Like n64 memory pack, so you can keep the ssd and controllers. There is just so many better solution and it is the perfect time now to do it.
I genuinely believe if they showed some actual gameplay from the heavy hitters it could've met those expectations. Like I said before, the UE5 demo really floored people and got those responses... I'm really shocked sony dropped the ball in that regard. Instead they used GT7 which really didn't impress much and R+C which was nice, but horizon or demon's souls would've been the way to go I think.
Gt7 is unreal from what they shown went compared to gt sport which was one of the best looking games this gen.
But doesn't that kind of prove diminishing returns? If a massive leap in tech now requires people to pay attention to the small robot on Ratchet's back to identify how much better the reflections are from last gen then we're getting less noticeable improvements from large jumps in horsepower.
I didn't think so personally and I know the general reaction was pretty muted. Driveclub blew me away way more at that reveal. They should've done demon's souls or horizon gameplay. I'm pretty sure that horizon trailer has some gameplay peppered in there like when she's riding the horse in the field.
Only the games with the biggest ever budgets/dev times will have the true WOW factor to them, but the rest won't look that much better than what we have today. There's only so much you can do with tech/raw power without the resources to take full advantage of them.
I think it's one thing to say we've hit diminishing returns on something like fur shaders, but obviously not other materials or technologies. So it's disingenuous to say we've reached diminishing returns for all graphics in general like they won't keep looking better in many ways that we didn't imagine bfore.
Like yes, Clank is physically small compared to Ratchet but there's still a big jump in technology apparent. Games that use more reflective surfaces will show that a lot more.
You shouldn't compare the specs, it's what they shown on screen that matters. As we know from 8 bit -> 16bit -> 32 bit -> 64 bit. While the jump is bigger, the games visuals are not. To have the same impact as those days, the jump mayby in specs has to be x10 and we know that isn't possible.
The best part of this approach is that no matter when you decide do upgrade to the newest model, you always have a long time ahead of support.
If you bought a PSPro at launch, your console had a very short lifespan.
Goes back to Playstation 2 graphics being hyped as like "Toy Story"
Sony set to unveil PlayStation 2 - Mar. 1, 1999
After months of speculation by the gaming community, Sony Corp. is expected to unveil its next generation PlayStation system Tuesday. However it will be at least a year until the system is available in the United States.
money.cnn.com
CNN said:
I just don't buy this. That UE5 demo was absolutely absurd and we've seen devs tweet out about the stuff they're working on looking incredible compared to what fans are describing. I feel like there has been a messaging issue here for both sony and msft and I genuinely don't understand how they don't get that.
Cinematic trailers will NEVER have the same impact gameplay itself will, it simply won't especially after the pre-rendered cg lies of the past fooled people. Showing Horizon in-game even just for 30 seconds would've been enough.
Yeah, I think in screenshots that might be the case. But when taking for example Horizon, the world looked much more complex and varied than in the previous game.
Just compare the water: Previously it was flat, pretty ugly, didn't react to the player, and had no depth.
Now there is waves, physics, underwater world.
Same with vegetation. Horizon ZD vegetation looked good but had no reactions to player movement or other physics simulation.
There are tons of things that can be done beyond texture resolution and polygon count.
Just compare the water: Previously it was flat, pretty ugly, didn't react to the player, and had no depth.
Now there is waves, physics, underwater world.
Same with vegetation. Horizon ZD vegetation looked good but had no reactions to player movement or other physics simulation.
There are tons of things that can be done beyond texture resolution and polygon count.
But that doesnt really change that gt7 is beyond anything in sport. Like gt7 is some next level shit. Epseplly since it is aiming for 120 fps on console
Probably compression, the stream looked very iffy, but no one was CG for sure.
Horizon as expected was the visual threshold that i was hoping we will get to this new generation. I still have my doubts you can get off that horse creature and go to a crab on the beach with that level of detail. There are many tricks from in game engine to gameplay they look like they willcontinue to be using.
Yeah, but devs tolds us that they can archive new gameplay elements what we didnt could do before. But they shown like nothing. If they show almost the same kind of gfx as prev gen, they should at least come with somthing unique none gimick stuff. But even that is a big fail...
Meh, Same thread gets made almost every console generation.
"Donkey Kong Country and Virtua Racing proves we don't need PS1"
(Honestly I think the PS1 gen ->PS2 gen transition was the only one that the difference was made clear)
"Xbox 360 games are just Xbox games in HD. Look at Doom! Splinter Cell!"
"PS4 games are just PS3 games with better IQ and a weaker CPU!"
We're making a statement about an entire platform before it's launched. Differences will be made even more clear later. Looking at R&C I see just as much of a difference from PS4->PS5 as PS3->PS4 but of course if you single out any particular thing and zoom in and emphasize it, it'll be less obvious.
"Donkey Kong Country and Virtua Racing proves we don't need PS1"
(Honestly I think the PS1 gen ->PS2 gen transition was the only one that the difference was made clear)
"Xbox 360 games are just Xbox games in HD. Look at Doom! Splinter Cell!"
"PS4 games are just PS3 games with better IQ and a weaker CPU!"
We're making a statement about an entire platform before it's launched. Differences will be made even more clear later. Looking at R&C I see just as much of a difference from PS4->PS5 as PS3->PS4 but of course if you single out any particular thing and zoom in and emphasize it, it'll be less obvious.