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Will this affect your purchase of future Atlus titles?

  • Yes I will not buy another Atlus title.

  • Yes I will not buy any title involving Hashino

  • Yes I’ll only buy them used.

  • No but I won’t buy Catherine Full Body.

  • No I will continue to purchase future Atlus titles.


Results are only viewable after voting.

Deleted member 11008

User requested account closure
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
6,627
Not really. I already have the original Catherine game for 360, so I don't wanted to get Full Body to begin. But depending who direct the upcoming Persona titles (Asuza Kido would be nice) and how the Project Fantasy game turns, I could delay my purchases or buy them used/digital cheap.

This don't include SMT and Etrian games, because they don't have Hashino influence (Nocturne was the last SMT he worked, I think)
 

Nogib

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
53
User Banned (permanent): Dismissing concerns of homophobia and transphobia, trolling; account in junior phase.
Being that I'm not a lunatic looking for trivial ways to get triggered, of course I will continue to buy Atlus games and support all the great gaming experiences they create.
 

Vexii

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,385
UK
There have been many graveyard threads on Era over the last year, and I think at this point many users have been silenced from speaking their mind. ResetEra is very much a beehive where you can get banned for expressing opinions, which is why the posts you see in such threads may not necessarily reflect the community as a whole. I personally don't really post in political or moral threads on Era any more as debates here have become difficult -- opinions are silenced and thus the only people left are people who just agree with each other. It's become masturbation, not actual discussion of serious issues, as only one opinion is often allowed. Thankfully that's not the case in more lighthearted threads, which would be most threads on the gaming side.
I have to agree. A junior member got banned from the other thread for an opinion that boiled down to "I will wait and see for myself how bad it is in the localisation" and that they didn't feel it was right for them to judge Catherine, a game they haven't played, as they study law and believe in seeing evidence for themselves first. They also said that maybe Erica experienced something in her past that caused her to transition and that whatever was changed to give her a quote-unquote "better life" could have had the domino effect of never causing her to transition in the first place.

That got the junior member banned, with reasons given being both their junior account status and transphobia, but I just don't see it in that person's replies. It's daft that I have to append this by saying I side with trans people fully and encourage everyone to seek out the best possible version of themselves but those replies didn't sound like transphobia to me at all. Sure maybe they could be seen as tone-deaf and insensitive, but not transphobic. It then opens up the entire discussion about whether or not the need for some to transition is natal or environmental, something that can still be argued either way making that person's response even more reasonable to mention on the grander scale of said discussion.

I agree completely that there just isn't a means to having proper discussion here. If someone can't reasonably state their non-aggressive opinion and say "Hey guys, here's one reason where the change could possibly logically make sense" in a decidedly non-transphobic way? At that point it stops being a discussion. People just don't engage for fear of losing their account or standing. And someone who feels that they can't contribute for fear of being punished can't be challenged on the correctness or incorrectness of their opinion, and therefore might not learn as much as they otherwise would if they felt they were able to speak freely. It then gives the illusion that there is only one correct response for a thread like this which given the poll results is demonstrably not the case. There is a reason why the poll says one thing and the discussion under the poll says something else.

Minds that do not benefit from the otherwise top-quality discussion that can be had on a platform such as ResetERA do not cease to exist or cease to be problematic; they just move somewhere else having gained no wisdom nor self-reflection. It's one thing to be told "You are wrong because..." and another to be told "We don't even want to hear you out, just leave" in a way that will only reinforce their radical thinking and cause them to seek out a much more damaging and transphobic forum. It's the entire reason why I also think that the people who tried to get Catherine added to the ResetERA ban list are just bonkers. What did they think that would acheive? You suddenly have a game that has provoked an uproar concerning the representation of trans people which despite being truly awful in this depiction can only progress trans discussion forward... and they would rather suppress it entirely? There's a huge culture of avoidance within ResetERA and so many people would rather plug their ears than challenge opposition proactively.

And I say all of this under the assumption that this post is the kind of thing that might get me my first warning because I'm talking about a banned junior member and the topics that got them banned, I'm talking about the website in a critical (and negative on a surface level) light and I'm being contrarian to the overall tone of this discussion not because I side with or lend any credibility to transphobia but because I believe in a much more meaningful discourse in which minds can be changed and people with problematic tendencies can be challenged constructively. That is how you encourage progress.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,662
People can interpret data however they want, but I don't think it's that complicated myself.

1) For people who aren't personally impacted by the phobic rhetoric of games like this it's easy to look past them as a mere component to a larger whole. Since the game does not reinforce any prejudice against them or remind them of trauma they have experienced or reinforce standards of discrimination against them they can swallow the scene for what it is and move on.

Yeah, this is it, for example a lot of people here love Obama but would feel very differently if they or their loved ones had been victims of his actions in the middle east like the support of the Yemen war, drone strikes, etc.

It's a natural thing for us humans to only care about what directly affects us.
 

FaceHugger

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
13,949
USA
No, I think there's still some overall cultural differences at play, and also the fact that some older creators in positions of authority are having input that doesn't necessarily reflect the opinions of a large staff of individuals. That said, my vote is not to buy that Catharine game after reading the recent thread about it. That's just too much and should not have made it into the final product regardless.
 

Son of Sparda

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,566
I'm glad that this is getting the attention it deserves and I always hope Atlus improves their representation of LGBTQ community in their games, but at the same time I know this is an Atlus Japan problem, and sadly to Atlus JP the only place that matters is Japan.

This isn't just in for this particular situation but as a whole, they don't care about what people outside of Japan think and do. So for this to actually have an impact and bring change to Atlus games, I hope Japanese players voice their opinions and let Atlus know that they are not happy about this.
 

Dark_Castle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,147
Wasn't interested in Catherine games but I will still be there for Persona and Project Re Fantasy, begrudgingly.
 

Ketkat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
I have to agree. A junior member got banned from the other thread for an opinion that boiled down to "I will wait and see for myself how bad it is in the localisation" and that they didn't feel it was right for them to judge Catherine, a game they haven't played, as they study law and believe in seeing evidence for themselves first. They also said that maybe Erica experienced something in her past that caused her to transition and that whatever was changed to give her a quote-unquote "better life" could have had the domino effect of never causing her to transition in the first place.

That got the junior member banned, with reasons given being both their junior account status and transphobia, but I just don't see it in that person's replies. It's daft that I have to append this by saying I side with trans people fully and encourage everyone to seek out the best possible version of themselves but those replies didn't sound like transphobia to me at all. Sure maybe they could be seen as tone-deaf and insensitive, but not transphobic. It then opens up the entire discussion about whether or not the need for some to transition is natal or environmental, something that can still be argued either way making that person's response even more reasonable to mention on the grander scale of said discussion.

I agree completely that there just isn't a means to having proper discussion here. If someone can't reasonably state their non-aggressive opinion and say "Hey guys, here's one reason where the change could possibly logically make sense" in a decidedly non-transphobic way? At that point it stops being a discussion. People just don't engage for fear of losing their account or standing. And someone who feels that they can't contribute for fear of being punished can't be challenged on the correctness or incorrectness of their opinion, and therefore might not learn as much as they otherwise would if they felt they were able to speak freely. It then gives the illusion that there is only one correct response for a thread like this which given the poll results is demonstrably not the case. There is a reason why the poll says one thing and the discussion under the poll says something else.

Minds that do not benefit from the otherwise top-quality discussion that can be had on a platform such as ResetERA do not cease to exist or cease to be problematic; they just move somewhere else having gained no wisdom nor self-reflection. It's one thing to be told "You are wrong because..." and another to be told "We don't even want to hear you out, just leave" in a way that will only reinforce their radical thinking and cause them to seek out a much more damaging and transphobic forum. It's the entire reason why I also think that the people who tried to get Catherine added to the ResetERA ban list are just bonkers. What did they think that would acheive? You suddenly have a game that has provoked an uproar concerning the representation of trans people which despite being truly awful in this depiction can only progress trans discussion forward... and they would rather suppress it entirely? There's a huge culture of avoidance within ResetERA and so many people would rather plug their ears than challenge opposition proactively.

And I say all of this under the assumption that this post is the kind of thing that might get me my first warning because I'm talking about a banned junior member and the topics that got them banned, I'm talking about the website in a critical (and negative on a surface level) light and I'm being contrarian to the overall tone of this discussion not because I side with or lend any credibility to transphobia but because I believe in a much more meaningful discourse in which minds can be changed and people with problematic tendencies can be challenged constructively. That is how you encourage progress.

It actually is transphobic to imply that someone is only transgender because they faced some sort of trauma in their past (if this is the post I'm thinking of). It reminds me of the sort of rhetoric where people used to think (some still do) that gay men are only gay because they were sexually abused as children in some way. The arguments for why someone transitions are always going to vary because every person expresses themselves differently, but in the case of Catherine, we already know that Erica transitioned long ago, before she ever met Toby. Toby is 10 years younger than the rest of the cast, and seeing as he was there in the wedding, we can presume that wedding takes place roughly in the same time period as the original game. The developers chose deliberately to have Erica not transition in this ending, and whether that was just to make fun of her even further (something they repeatedly did in the original version of the game) or not doesn't largely matter because they just don't understand trans issues at best and ignorance does not excuse the impact that something like that can have on people.

Finale Fireworker really did sum it up well, where it's hard for people who aren't affected by these situations to actually understand the real impact that these issues can have. For a lot of LGBT people, our only experiences growing up with other LGBT people is the media that we consume, and these can and have pushed people into the closet for a long time. I was absolutely terrified to ever come out as trans because of just the constant fearmongering in the news, the portrayals of how tranwomen are in the media, and just being the butt of every joke and never taken seriously. These things do matter, and while educating people is important, some people don't care to listen.

And it honestly is overblown that you "can't have a discussion" about these issues here at all. I've been in most of these threads since the site's inception, and the trans community has spent countless hours educating people over and over again, even in these threads that continously get comments like this. If you're really unsure about anything related to trans stuff, then just be upfront that you don't understand things clearly and we will do our best to educate you.
 

NHarmonic.

▲ Legend ▲
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,290
It actually is transphobic to imply that someone is only transgender because they faced some sort of trauma in their past (if this is the post I'm thinking of). It reminds me of the sort of rhetoric where people used to think (some still do) that gay men are only gay because they were sexually abused as children in some way. The arguments for why someone transitions are always going to vary because every person expresses themselves differently, but in the case of Catherine, we already know that Erica transitioned long ago, before she ever met Toby. Toby is 10 years younger than the rest of the cast, and seeing as he was there in the wedding, we can presume that wedding takes place roughly in the same time period as the original game. The developers chose deliberately to have Erica not transition in this ending, and whether that was just to make fun of her even further (something they repeatedly did in the original version of the game) or not doesn't largely matter because they just don't understand trans issues at best and ignorance does not excuse the impact that something like that can have on people.

Finale Fireworker really did sum it up well, where it's hard for people who aren't affected by these situations to actually understand the real impact that these issues can have. For a lot of LGBT people, our only experiences growing up with other LGBT people is the media that we consume, and these can and have pushed people into the closet for a long time. I was absolutely terrified to ever come out as trans because of just the constant fearmongering in the news, the portrayals of how tranwomen are in the media, and just being the butt of every joke and never taken seriously. These things do matter, and while educating people is important, some people don't care to listen.

And it honestly is overblown that you "can't have a discussion" about these issues here at all. I've been in most of these threads since the site's inception, and the trans community has spent countless hours educating people over and over again, even in these threads that continously get comments like this. If you're really unsure about anything related to trans stuff, then just be upfront that you don't understand things clearly and we will do our best to educate you.

Great post.
 

Deleted member 4037

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,989
There have been many graveyard threads on Era over the last year, and I think at this point many users have been silenced from speaking their mind. ResetEra is very much a beehive where you can get banned for expressing opinions, which is why the posts you see in such threads may not necessarily reflect the community as a whole. I personally don't really post in political or moral threads on Era any more as debates here have become difficult -- opinions are silenced and thus the only people left are people who just agree with each other. It's become masturbation, not actual discussion of serious issues, as only one opinion is often allowed. Thankfully that's not the case in more lighthearted threads, which would be most threads on the gaming side.
This is pretty much it, discussions have become so tribal and moderators have always leaned harder into the progressive side. If you arent on the team, you are against progressive ideals, its ultimately hard to discuss when its so black and white minded and there is a lack of transparency in what is considered actionable. So at the end why bother getting into discussions in grey areas when you probably wont get through to anyone, people start to dog pile, and then you get banned on top of that. Any kind of discussion that isnt complete agreement is always in danger to "trivialize" the issue. Ive seen a lot of ridiculous bans (not these threads specifically) like this and it ultimately drives away even progressive minded people to not talking because they dont agree with a degree or a point. So people dont post and it creates an echo chamber so we get a perception of how things are. I really dont think era is the place to have meaningful discussions on social issues. I think everyone has their hearts in the right place though.
 

edgefusion

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,865
For me, the LGBT representation in Persona 5 was so bad that I'd already decided Atlus weren't a developer I want to support. The issue with Catherine just confirms that Atlus are an LGBT-hostile developer, so now more than I ever I can't morally justify spending on their games.

The poll results aren't surprising to me. Disappointing, but not surprising.

Edit: Just to comment regarding the recent topic of moderation. I don't see any moderated posts in this thread that were simply inquisitive minds 'asking questions', they were all dismissive drive-by posts clearly designed to incite arguments or be inflammatory. Nobody gets banned because they don't understand an issue, they get banned because they come in with stupid shit like, "lulz, le trans are le offended XD XD I'll buy 2 copiezz!"
 
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Ventus

Member
Feb 16, 2019
7
I've already been avoiding the Persona games because even though my friends enjoy them (and we have similar tastes), they know that the homophobic and transphobic stuff really gets me heated and have warned me about it, so I haven't picked any of them up. Par for the course I guess. There's been other things I just couldn't get through for the same reasons, so I wouldn't say it's me deciding on an outright boycott I guess; just that I'm deciding to pass on games I know I wont enjoy.
 

user__

Member
Oct 25, 2017
570
I followed this matter for a few days now, and now I realized, that shitty Persona 5 episode is far away from being an isolated case. Man I hated that scene.
I voted the second option but now I'm regretting that choice, Atlus should not get away with this mess by simply ditching Hashino (something I higly doubt they'll do anyway). As the producers they aren't any less responsible.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,949
I have to agree. A junior member got banned from the other thread for an opinion that boiled down to "I will wait and see for myself how bad it is in the localisation" and that they didn't feel it was right for them to judge Catherine, a game they haven't played, as they study law and believe in seeing evidence for themselves first. They also said that maybe Erica experienced something in her past that caused her to transition and that whatever was changed to give her a quote-unquote "better life" could have had the domino effect of never causing her to transition in the first place.

That got the junior member banned...

I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure that's the part that got them banned.
 
Feb 13, 2018
3,842
Japan
I have to agree. A junior member got banned from the other thread for an opinion that boiled down to "I will wait and see for myself how bad it is in the localisation" and that they didn't feel it was right for them to judge Catherine, a game they haven't played, as they study law and believe in seeing evidence for themselves first. They also said that maybe Erica experienced something in her past that caused her to transition and that whatever was changed to give her a quote-unquote "better life" could have had the domino effect of never causing her to transition in the first place.

That got the junior member banned, with reasons given being both their junior account status and transphobia, but I just don't see it in that person's replies. It's daft that I have to append this by saying I side with trans people fully and encourage everyone to seek out the best possible version of themselves but those replies didn't sound like transphobia to me at all. Sure maybe they could be seen as tone-deaf and insensitive, but not transphobic. It then opens up the entire discussion about whether or not the need for some to transition is natal or environmental, something that can still be argued either way making that person's response even more reasonable to mention on the grander scale of said discussion.

I agree completely that there just isn't a means to having proper discussion here. If someone can't reasonably state their non-aggressive opinion and say "Hey guys, here's one reason where the change could possibly logically make sense" in a decidedly non-transphobic way? At that point it stops being a discussion. People just don't engage for fear of losing their account or standing. And someone who feels that they can't contribute for fear of being punished can't be challenged on the correctness or incorrectness of their opinion, and therefore might not learn as much as they otherwise would if they felt they were able to speak freely. It then gives the illusion that there is only one correct response for a thread like this which given the poll results is demonstrably not the case. There is a reason why the poll says one thing and the discussion under the poll says something else.

Minds that do not benefit from the otherwise top-quality discussion that can be had on a platform such as ResetERA do not cease to exist or cease to be problematic; they just move somewhere else having gained no wisdom nor self-reflection. It's one thing to be told "You are wrong because..." and another to be told "We don't even want to hear you out, just leave" in a way that will only reinforce their radical thinking and cause them to seek out a much more damaging and transphobic forum. It's the entire reason why I also think that the people who tried to get Catherine added to the ResetERA ban list are just bonkers. What did they think that would acheive? You suddenly have a game that has provoked an uproar concerning the representation of trans people which despite being truly awful in this depiction can only progress trans discussion forward... and they would rather suppress it entirely? There's a huge culture of avoidance within ResetERA and so many people would rather plug their ears than challenge opposition proactively.

And I say all of this under the assumption that this post is the kind of thing that might get me my first warning because I'm talking about a banned junior member and the topics that got them banned, I'm talking about the website in a critical (and negative on a surface level) light and I'm being contrarian to the overall tone of this discussion not because I side with or lend any credibility to transphobia but because I believe in a much more meaningful discourse in which minds can be changed and people with problematic tendencies can be challenged constructively. That is how you encourage progress.
I think this is a pretty good post that succinctly sums up the discrepancy between the other threads and the poll results. But ResetERA is not the kind of site that welcomes discussion that could become heated, and despite what many people here would have you believe now neither was GAF before it. For every person who would rather discuss or even debate a topic that might be controversial, you have more who would rather not read those posts, or feel offended by them. ResetERA wants to be an inclusive place where disenfranchised and marginalized voices can be protected and heard, so obviously reports are going to be taken seriously. I'm of the personal opinion that the moderation team is a bit too trigger happy with the ban and lock buttons, among other issues, but I understand the reason why. Despite our opinions ERA is what it is and I don't think the staff or most of the more prolific users want it to change.

To move things back in topic, I got curious and did some searching to see if any of this stuff was covered in Japanese sites but only found a few tweet reactions and a short but succinct article on it with a high number of comments, none of which would make anybody here happy. Ignoring some of the most inflammatory ones, the general opinion seems to be "How is that even problematic? Everything is discrimination to these people" and "Why are the west trying to force their politics on us?"
On a more positive note, fans on twitter seem to really like Rin and Erica's relationship scenes and many want an Erica route.

I'm curious if anyone else here knows any otherJapanese sites discussing LGBT concerns about the game.
 

Bhonar

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,066
For me, the LGBT representation in Persona 5 was so bad that I'd already decided Atlus weren't a developer I want to support. The issue with Catherine just confirms that Atlus are an LGBT-hostile developer, so now more than I ever I can't morally justify spending on their games.

The poll results aren't surprising to me. Disappointing, but not surprising.

Edit: Just to comment regarding the recent topic of moderation. I don't see any moderated posts in this thread that were simply inquisitive minds 'asking questions', they were all dismissive drive-by posts clearly designed to incite arguments or be inflammatory. Nobody gets banned because they don't understand an issue, they get banned because they come in with stupid shit like, "lulz, le trans are le offended XD XD I'll buy 2 copiezz!"
people were talking about the other thread, not this one. and just previous threads in general
 

vivian_r

Banned
Feb 15, 2019
9
User Banned (permanent): Transphobia, trolling; account in junior phase.
Catherine is getting the ire of libfems but it'll be a lot more appealing to radfems like me.
 

Vexii

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,385
UK
It actually is transphobic to imply that someone is only transgender because they faced some sort of trauma in their past (if this is the post I'm thinking of). It reminds me of the sort of rhetoric where people used to think (some still do) that gay men are only gay because they were sexually abused as children in some way. The arguments for why someone transitions are always going to vary because every person expresses themselves differently, but in the case of Catherine, we already know that Erica transitioned long ago, before she ever met Toby. Toby is 10 years younger than the rest of the cast, and seeing as he was there in the wedding, we can presume that wedding takes place roughly in the same time period as the original game. The developers chose deliberately to have Erica not transition in this ending, and whether that was just to make fun of her even further (something they repeatedly did in the original version of the game) or not doesn't largely matter because they just don't understand trans issues at best and ignorance does not excuse the impact that something like that can have on people.

Finale Fireworker really did sum it up well, where it's hard for people who aren't affected by these situations to actually understand the real impact that these issues can have. For a lot of LGBT people, our only experiences growing up with other LGBT people is the media that we consume, and these can and have pushed people into the closet for a long time. I was absolutely terrified to ever come out as trans because of just the constant fearmongering in the news, the portrayals of how tranwomen are in the media, and just being the butt of every joke and never taken seriously. These things do matter, and while educating people is important, some people don't care to listen.

And it honestly is overblown that you "can't have a discussion" about these issues here at all. I've been in most of these threads since the site's inception, and the trans community has spent countless hours educating people over and over again, even in these threads that continously get comments like this. If you're really unsure about anything related to trans stuff, then just be upfront that you don't understand things clearly and we will do our best to educate you.
I love the response, thank you so much. It also came so quickly as well whereas my post took over an hour to write because I am constantly aware that there is an invisible line that could lose me access to my ability to contribute if I'm not very careful in my articulation.

Yeah I believe we are thinking of the same post, and the word trauma was definitely used. So first of all I would like to apologise because even now whilst championing I am not transphobic I seem to be unknowingly acting that way, and I think this is one of the biggest issues that we face in transphobia discussion - A lot of people who believe that they are acting innocuously don't know that they aren't. I wrote everything in my post wanting nothing but progress for the rights and representation of trans people and now have a deeper insight into how even simple thinking such as "maybe there was a reason" can be seen as phobic as well. I would not have necessarily said that it had to be traumatic in nature but just that there was a reasoning or event that might have led to some kind of realisation, sort of like a butterfly effect if you get me? I imagine that this is still pretty much identical thinking though? What I would like to stress is that this isn't something that a banned member would be able to learn from, to receive this reply and to be able to really get to the core of what it means for a trans person to challenge your conception directly. I'm very thankful that you did.

And it is true that I couldn't possibly ever truly understand because I'm not affected by these issues personally. I really want to make it known that I abhor the treatment of Erica by the way. Cis people who choose to take on the task of representing an LGBT person in their media need to first come to terms with the gravity of their decision, starting primarily with hiring LGBT people to do that for them; people who do understand these struggles in the ways that only they can. Catherine in this regard was an enormous failing and it's something that Hashino needs to be made aware of. I really am sorry that this is a topic that needed to happen at all, and I can't speak for those who won't listen because that's a failing unto itself, but it's always worth trying to fight the good fight first. I hope that I'm able to do that for all LGBT people going forward.

And personally I feel as though the only reason I was able to post my message in the first place is because the message felt more important than any ban would be - Not to say that I was hoping for one but fearing being banned has definitely stopped me from speaking up before. I'm glad I spoke out now because it led to a reply from the very type of person I could stand to learn from. It's probably clear that there is a lot I don't understand, and the ban from earlier felt exceptionally harsh which is what led me to mention it in the first place. Obviously trolls and hurtful commenters should never be tolerated but I don't think that member was intending any harm at all. They were probably thinking of it similarly to me.

I really appreciate your message. Truly.
 
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Bhonar

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,066
To move things back in topic, I got curious and did some searching to see if any of this stuff was covered in Japanese sites but only found a few tweet reactions and a short but succinct article on it with a high number of comments, none of which would make anybody here happy. Ignoring some of the most inflammatory ones, the general opinion seems to be "How is that even problematic? Everything is discrimination to these people" and "Why are the west trying to force their politics on us?"
On a more positive note, fans on twitter seem to really like Rin and Erica's relationship scenes and many want an Erica route.
I'm not japanese myself, but I did visit Japan on a two-week vacation before. And what you found certainly does not surprise me. (My trip was around 15+ years ago, so I would say it's before the more PC-type of thinking in today's world.)

Bottom line is different countries have different cultures
 

Bhonar

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,066
What are the poll results? I don't want to vote because none of the options match my opinion.
as of now:

  • Yes I will not buy another Atlus title.
    Votes: 6.6%
  • Yes I will not buy any title involving Hashino
    Votes: 12.6%
  • Yes I'll only buy them used.
    Votes: 2.3%
  • No but I won't buy Catherine Full Body.
    Votes: 22.5%
  • No I will continue to purchase future Atlus titles.
    Votes: 56.0%
 

Jonathan Lanza

"I've made a Gigantic mistake"
Member
Feb 8, 2019
6,786
This is pretty much it, discussions have become so tribal and moderators have always leaned harder into the progressive side. If you arent on the team, you are against progressive ideals, its ultimately hard to discuss when its so black and white minded and there is a lack of transparency in what is considered actionable. So at the end why bother getting into discussions in grey areas when you probably wont get through to anyone, people start to dog pile, and then you get banned on top of that. Any kind of discussion that isnt complete agreement is always in danger to "trivialize" the issue. Ive seen a lot of ridiculous bans (not these threads specifically) like this and it ultimately drives away even progressive minded people to not talking because they dont agree with a degree or a point. So people dont post and it creates an echo chamber so we get a perception of how things are. I really dont think era is the place to have meaningful discussions on social issues. I think everyone has their hearts in the right place though.
What are some examples of silly bans that you believe happened?
 
Feb 13, 2018
3,842
Japan
I'm not japanese myself, but I did visit Japan on a two-week vacation before. And what you found certainly does not surprise me. (My trip was around 15+ years ago, so I would say it's before the more PC-type of thinking in today's world.)

Bottom line is different countries have different cultures
I live in Japan currently so I'm somewhat familiar, but I don't know a lot about Japanese gaming forums and I don't know anyone who's interested in Catherine. I've had somediscussions about LGBT issues with people here before but those particular people were pretty progressive.
 

Azuran

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,563
I stopped buying Atlus games when they went all anti-consumer with Persona 5 followed by the myriad of mindless stans defending them.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,427
I feel like it should be implicit with stuff like this that people who had no interest in the company's games before this shit going on aren't really relevant here and don't really need to share if that's all they're going to say
 

Deleted member 4037

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,989
There isn't. Thread maker disabled that option.
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I just went for the change vote option so maybe thats what is throwing me off here, I wasnt even aware that you could turn it off

What are some examples of silly bans that you believe happened?
Not something I want to discuss here to derail the thread by making it about era moderation, if you want to pm me feel free to. I made my point here and im leaving it at that
 

NHarmonic.

▲ Legend ▲
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,290
This is pretty much it, discussions have become so tribal and moderators have always leaned harder into the progressive side. If you arent on the team, you are against progressive ideals, its ultimately hard to discuss when its so black and white minded and there is a lack of transparency in what is considered actionable. So at the end why bother getting into discussions in grey areas when you probably wont get through to anyone, people start to dog pile, and then you get banned on top of that. Any kind of discussion that isnt complete agreement is always in danger to "trivialize" the issue. Ive seen a lot of ridiculous bans (not these threads specifically) like this and it ultimately drives away even progressive minded people to not talking because they dont agree with a degree or a point. So people dont post and it creates an echo chamber so we get a perception of how things are. I really dont think era is the place to have meaningful discussions on social issues. I think everyone has their hearts in the right place though.

This is not true at all, and way overblown. Is this a new rhetoric to try and tone down the issues being discussed? Really seems like bad faith here.

The only bans i've seen is from violent people dismissing stuff (as we've seen already here) without any care for this community.
 

semiconscious

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
2,140
There have been many graveyard threads on Era over the last year, and I think at this point many users have been silenced from speaking their mind. ResetEra is very much a beehive where you can get banned for expressing opinions, which is why the posts you see in such threads may not necessarily reflect the community as a whole. I personally don't really post in political or moral threads on Era any more as debates here have become difficult -- opinions are silenced and thus the only people left are people who just agree with each other. It's become masturbation, not actual discussion of serious issues, as only one opinion is often allowed. Thankfully that's not the case in more lighthearted threads, which would be most threads on the gaming side...

thanks for this. very well said. i also no longer feel free to post in such threads...
 

Deleted member 4037

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,989
This is not true at all, and way overblown. Is this a new rhetoric to try and tone down the issues being discussed? Really seems like bad faith here.

The only bans i've seen is from violent people dismissing stuff (as we've seen already here) without any care for this community.
I guess our anecdotal evidence just differs, I dont say this in bad faith, nor will I say you are wrong for thinking the way you do. Era does do a lot of deserved bans on a lot of inconsiderate people
 

Jonathan Lanza

"I've made a Gigantic mistake"
Member
Feb 8, 2019
6,786
Not something I want to discuss here to derail the thread by making it about era moderation, if you want to pm me feel free to. I made my point here and im leaving it at that
No offense but your standards of "discussion" seem a little skewed. You say you want a discussion but now you're also saying that you just wanted to make a point and not discuss it?
 

Deleted member 4037

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,989
No offense but your standards of "discussion" seem a little skewed. You say you want a discussion but now you're also saying that you just wanted to make a point and not discuss it?
No, im saying I dont want to discuss it *here* to derail the thread, which I guess is now happening ironically. Feel free to pm though if you want to talk about it
 

Bhonar

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,066
No offense but your standards of "discussion" seem a little skewed. You say you want a discussion but now you're also saying that you just wanted to make a point and not discuss it?
that's absolutely not fair for you to say that. I'm sure moderators do not want this thread to be posting ban examples from other random threads, that's not directly related to this thread. you just trying to get him banned? lol

As the other poster said, I can PM you future examples if you like
 

Vexii

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,385
UK
This is not true at all, and way overblown. Is this a new rhetoric to try and tone down the issues being discussed? Really seems like bad faith here.

The only bans i've seen is from violent people dismissing stuff (as we've seen already here) without any care for this community.
So this is the banned post I've been referring to.

This isn't what I would describe as hateful or violent. The poster says that they wouldn't defend ATLUS' transphobia if things are as described by other posters, goes on to ask if it could be said that Erica's transition isn't the "bad thing that needed to be changed" but a result of trauma that might have been changed, and then asks not to act hatefully without full proof.

I've now learned that this type of post still isn't okay as per my two previous posts, but this member didn't get to learn anything for what seems like some fairly calm and well intentioned posting.

EDIT: I would like to say I'm not going to post about this particular thing anymore because it's been said enough, the mods made a decision and have no intention of flaunting it around. It just served as a part of my own discussion as to why some people are scared of speaking at all when their own thoughts and opinions seem harmless to them. That's all.
 
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crpj31

Member
Dec 13, 2017
560
If a game interests me I will buy. Since I probably would be banned if I compare it with other examples and I'm not english native speaker could someone explain to me what is a phobic discourse? So I will try to adapt what I want to say in a way thats not offensive to anyone.
 

Ketkat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
I love the response, thank you so much. It also came so quickly as well whereas my post took over an hour to write because I am constantly aware that there is an invisible line that could lose me access to my ability to contribute if I'm not very careful in my articulation.

Yeah I believe we are thinking of the same post, and the word trauma was definitely used. So first of all I would like to apologise because even now whilst championing I am not transphobic I seem to be unknowingly acting that way, and I think this is one of the biggest issues that we face in transphobia discussion - A lot of people who believe that they are acting innocuously don't know that they aren't. I wrote everything in my post wanting nothing but progress for the rights and representation of trans people and now have a deeper insight into how even simple thinking such as "maybe there was a reason" can be seen as phobic as well. I would not have necessarily said that it had to be traumatic in nature but just that there was a reasoning or event that might have led to some kind of realisation, sort of like a butterfly effect if you get me? I imagine that this is still pretty much identical thinking though? What I would like to stress is that this isn't something that a banned member would be able to learn from, to receive this reply and to be able to really get to the core of what it means for a trans person to challenge your conception directly. I'm very thankful that you did.

And it is true that I couldn't possibly ever truly understand because I'm not affected by these issues personally. I really want to make it known that I abhor the treatment of Erica by the way. Cis people who choose to take on the task of representing an LGBT person in their media need to first come to terms with the gravity of their decision, starting primarily with hiring LGBT people to do that for them; people who do understand these struggles in the ways that only they can. Catherine in this regard was an enormous failing and it's something that Hashino needs to be made aware of. I really am sorry that this is a topic that needed to happen at all, and I can't speak for those who won't listen because that's a failing unto itself, but it's always worth trying to fight the good fight first. I hope that I'm able to do that for all LGBT people going forward.

And personally I feel as though the only reason I was able to post my message in the first place is because the message felt more important than any ban would be - Not to say that I was hoping for one but fearing being banned has definitely stopped me from speaking up before. I'm glad I spoke out now because it led to a reply from the very type of person I could stand to learn from. It's probably clear that there is a lot I don't understand, and the ban from earlier felt exceptionally harsh which is what led me to mention it in the first place. Obviously trolls and hurtful commenters should never be tolerated but I don't think that member was intending any harm at all. They were probably thinking of it similarly to me.

I really appreciate your message. Truly.

No, that's not identical thinking. While there can be catalysts for someone realizing that they are in fact trans, that's not quite the same as going through something traumatic that can lead to someone being trans in the first place. Speaking personally, I always had feelings growing up wanting to be a woman as early as when I was like 6 or 7. It wasn't until I was 12 or 13 and saw my mom watching some special on TV that involved a transwoman that I had the thought "Oh, that's actually possible. I'm trans" There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that not everyone knows that they're trans at all times, especially since we all grow up in the same societies that can force us to push it deep down.

However, when we start talking about trauma being the cause of someone being trans, then we are ignoring the realities of the situation. I was always trans, even before I realized that it was a thing, as was Erica. While the science isn't completely settled on the exact causes of what makes someone be trans, or part of the LGBT community in general, it's something completely natural that people are born with. It isn't created out of some kind of trauma. This is a very harmful way of thinking because it creates this idea that trans people need to work through their trauma instead of actually transitioning. If you'd like to read more about that science or have any other general questions, you can feel free to use this thread I made a little while back : https://www.resetera.com/threads/transgender-101.25656/
 

Seeya

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,984
I have to agree. A junior member got banned from the other thread for an opinion that boiled down to "I will wait and see for myself how bad it is in the localisation" and that they didn't feel it was right for them to judge Catherine, a game they haven't played, as they study law and believe in seeing evidence for themselves first. They also said that maybe Erica experienced something in her past that caused her to transition and that whatever was changed to give her a quote-unquote "better life" could have had the domino effect of never causing her to transition in the first place.

That got the junior member banned, with reasons given being both their junior account status and transphobia, but I just don't see it in that person's replies. It's daft that I have to append this by saying I side with trans people fully and encourage everyone to seek out the best possible version of themselves but those replies didn't sound like transphobia to me at all. Sure maybe they could be seen as tone-deaf and insensitive, but not transphobic. It then opens up the entire discussion about whether or not the need for some to transition is natal or environmental, something that can still be argued either way making that person's response even more reasonable to mention on the grander scale of said discussion.

I agree completely that there just isn't a means to having proper discussion here. If someone can't reasonably state their non-aggressive opinion and say "Hey guys, here's one reason where the change could possibly logically make sense" in a decidedly non-transphobic way? At that point it stops being a discussion. People just don't engage for fear of losing their account or standing. And someone who feels that they can't contribute for fear of being punished can't be challenged on the correctness or incorrectness of their opinion, and therefore might not learn as much as they otherwise would if they felt they were able to speak freely. It then gives the illusion that there is only one correct response for a thread like this which given the poll results is demonstrably not the case. There is a reason why the poll says one thing and the discussion under the poll says something else.

Minds that do not benefit from the otherwise top-quality discussion that can be had on a platform such as ResetERA do not cease to exist or cease to be problematic; they just move somewhere else having gained no wisdom nor self-reflection. It's one thing to be told "You are wrong because..." and another to be told "We don't even want to hear you out, just leave" in a way that will only reinforce their radical thinking and cause them to seek out a much more damaging and transphobic forum. It's the entire reason why I also think that the people who tried to get Catherine added to the ResetERA ban list are just bonkers. What did they think that would acheive? You suddenly have a game that has provoked an uproar concerning the representation of trans people which despite being truly awful in this depiction can only progress trans discussion forward... and they would rather suppress it entirely? There's a huge culture of avoidance within ResetERA and so many people would rather plug their ears than challenge opposition proactively.

And I say all of this under the assumption that this post is the kind of thing that might get me my first warning because I'm talking about a banned junior member and the topics that got them banned, I'm talking about the website in a critical (and negative on a surface level) light and I'm being contrarian to the overall tone of this discussion not because I side with or lend any credibility to transphobia but because I believe in a much more meaningful discourse in which minds can be changed and people with problematic tendencies can be challenged constructively. That is how you encourage progress.

Good post (do to with chilling effects). There are better methods to encourage progress than ones that will ultimately encourage radicalization.
 

Linkura

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,943
Picked the top choice and I'm kind of surprised I'm in a vast minority here. I will not be buying another Atlus game until there is an apology and this shit doesn't happen in future titles.

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