Has Hollow Knight surpassed Super Metroid/SOTN as the best Metroidvania?

[lvl 99 Pixel]

This is not worth pointing out. No one was under the impression that Era posts are generated by fact-bots.

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Then why not word it more like "I prefer" instead of "Its way better", if you do believe this?

EVERY game is doing different things. Nevertheless the thread is asking for the bottom line of what is our favorite. To me the qualities of HK outweigh the qualities of Ori WOTW.

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Of course every game is doing different things, but some of them are undeniably doing things that separate them from the others. Like Bloodstained to me just felt like an Igavania to a fault, which isn't a fault if that's your thing.

 

[Servbot24]

Then why not word it more like "I prefer" instead of "Its way better", if you do believe this?

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Some things are so abundantly obvious that they do not need to be stated with every single post. Otherwise the admins could just put an automatic "WARNING!! The following was posted by a human being and is their opinion!!" banner above every single post. But that would be incredibly obnoxious, so they don't.

Of course every game is doing different things, but some of them are undeniably doing things that separate them from the others. Like Bloodstained to me just felt like an Igavania to a fault, which isn't a fault if that's your thing.

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Incidentally Bloodstained is up next for me to play. Right now I'm finishing Touhou Luna Knights which is quite good!

 

[SPRidley]

Zero mission and super metroid are still better.

While i liked hollow knight is not what im asking for a metroidvania title.

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

Some things are so abundantly obvious that they do not need to be stated with every single post. Otherwise the admins could just put an automatic "WARNING!! The following was posted by a human being and is their opinion!!" banner above every single post. But that would be incredibly obnoxious, so they don't.

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Obvious or not it makes me think less of someones opinion if its phrased as fact, especially if it reads like hyperbole.

Incidentally Bloodstained is up next for me to play. Right now I'm finishing Touhou Luna Knights which is quite good!

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I like Luna Nights but that high bpm music playing non stop was giving me a bit of a headache.

 

[No Depth]

HK keeps getting better. Up to the waterways area, have enough charms to make tough decisions on equips. It comes together real nice.

I do find it falters a bit in the lore. As of yet I feel no buy-in with what is going on this world or it's npc's. The drip feed is offering little and it feels past the point where my interest is picqued or intrigued. Other mentions and games did a far better job getting me invested beyond the gameplay, especially in the opening.

I know the mapping and progression is a point of contention for many, but I love it here. Feels like one of the few entries to take a real risk with such an established design and I'm quite enjoying not having reliance on auto mapping at all times. Truly being more mindful of the layouts. Not that I feel it should scale back in other games, but it works well here.

 

[Diarrhea Day-Lewis]

I like HK but I think ultimately it goes on too long. Would've loved some of the content to be swapped to post game endgame stuff so you could beat the main game in a shorter amount of time.

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

Discussion around games and this genre in particular are just toxic and gatekeepy in general. Its no different to any discourse on Smash as a fighter being "Its a platformer not a fighting game", but in this case its "its not a metroidvania its a platformer"..... even though the genre has always basically been a platformer with a twist.

One game focuses less on combat and more on platforming and all of a sudden the No True Scotsman rears its hideous head. Even when the sequel has some of the most work put into its combat systems and open ended design its still labelled "not a true metroidvania" and followed by wild accusations of plagiarism such as "It has a map vendor!"...... and when you point out how thats both not a new thing for the genre, and how different the implementation is, the poster just says "yeah its completely different, one plays a much bigger role".....the lack of self awareness is astounding.

 

[Deleted member 22630]

Always has been.

 

[Mr.Branding]

If you can go back to the last two pages. We had a discussion about that.

I am all for anyone who says the Ori games are better games than Hollow Knight or more fun, or more polished. I can very much see that, but to say they are better metroidvanias sounds really weird to me.

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Ysw, let me name other metroidvanias: Mummy Demastered, Chasm, Axiom Verge, the Messenger. You know what all these games have in common? They're all much better than HK.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Ysw, let me name other metroidvanias: Mummy Demastered, Chasm, Axiom Verge, the Messenger. You know what all these games have in common? They're all much better than HK.

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Hollow Knight

Hollow Knight for Switch game reviews & Metacritic score: Hollow Knight is a 2D action-adventure game with an emphasis on traditional 2D animation and skillful gameplay. Journey to Hallownest, a vast and ancient underg...

www.metacritic.com

🤔

 

[TheLastYoshi]

Hollow Knight is up there but there is something about the length of Super Metroid that makes it "just right", I love the way it tells a compelling narrative with little text, no dialog, or lore entry... it's as close to perfect, there is nothing bad I can say about Super Metroid.

 

[My Blue Heaven]

super metroid is a perfect game so no but HK is still excellent

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

Hollow Knight

Hollow Knight for Switch game reviews & Metacritic score: Hollow Knight is a 2D action-adventure game with an emphasis on traditional 2D animation and skillful gameplay. Journey to Hallownest, a vast and ancient underg...

www.metacritic.com

🤔

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Why are Switch versions of games rated higher? afaik both HK and Ori run worse on Switch vs PC, but PC is rated lower.

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HK is actually even below Blind Forest for PC if that means anything to you all. Era being the gaming aficionado website knows best.
I don't trust Era after the goty voting.

 

[Pirate Bae]

I couldn't get into HK. I'm sure it's deserving of all the praise it gets, I just couldn't figure out the mechanics for the life of me when I played it. Maybe I'm just Bad At Games ™ . The aesthetics are wonderful though.

Ultimately I prefer Castlevania / Bloostained. I love the gothic tone and setting and the simple gameplay of it all.

SM is fun too, just not my fave. I got lost a lot.

 

[Wil Grieve]

No. Not even close. Hollow Knight was okay.

 

[JuniperAndSage]

Why are Switch versions of games rated higher? afaik both HK and Ori run worse on Switch vs PC, but PC is rated lower.

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Someone reviewing a game on Switch probably didn't review it on PC, and isn't writing a review that compares performance between the two. Especially a game like Hollow Knight where the game didn't launch simultaneously on all those different platforms.

Edit: Also, pretty sure the Switch version came out after all the DLC had been released. While the PC version was reviewed at launch without any of that content.

 

[Ryuhza]

Why are Switch versions of games rated higher? afaik both HK and Ori run worse on Switch vs PC, but PC is rated lower.

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It's the Perfect For The Switch™ factor. There's a bonus 5-point Perfect For The Switch™ category for Nintendo Switch versions of games. The more Perfect For The Switch™ it is, the more points it gets. Theoretically, if game is both perfect in and of itself as well as being Perfect For The Switch™, it can get a total of 105 points!

 

[Hu3]

HK is actually even below Blind Forest for PC if that means anything to you all. Era being the gaming aficionado website knows best.
I don't trust Era after the goty voting.

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you still going at it. You seriously need help. You have this weird fixation with this game. The only one being toxic in this thread is you. You act as if your word should be gospel. Agains all the odds you want Ori to be better than hollow knight. You somehow can't accept the fact that HK is liked more and had more impact, it connected with more people.

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

you still going at it. You seriously need help. You have this weird fixation with this game. The only one being toxic in this thread is you. You act as if your word should be gospel. Agains all the odds you want Ori to be better than hollow knight. You somehow can't accept the fact that HK is liked more and had more impact, it connected with more people.

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You should probably just use ignore then instead of insulting me. A thread asking which game in the genre is the best is going to have people disagreeing, deal with it.

 

[Deleted member 32005]

Why are Switch versions of games rated higher? afaik both HK and Ori run worse on Switch vs PC, but PC is rated lower.



HK is actually even below Blind Forest for PC if that means anything to you all. Era being the gaming aficionado website knows best.
I don't trust Era after the goty voting.

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HK runs awesome on switch. like, perfect.

i played ori on xbox but i imagine the lower resolution would be more impactful on switch given its art style

 

[Hu3]

You should probably just use ignore then instead of insulting me. A thread asking which game in the genre is the best is going to have people disagreeing, deal with it.

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Oh boy. In what way am I insulting you ?, in pointing the fact that you're being super hostile in the thread. And I don't need to ignore you I am not a child. One thing is to disagree. But whatever.

 

[VegiHam]

So I've never played Supr Metroid but I've played Metroid 2 and Metroid Fusion and honestly, Super would need to be twice as good as those games to come close to Hollow Knight. Is it that good, or is it a you had to be there thing?

 

[Deleted member 37928]

Because of threads like this I downloaded Super Metroid on my Switch and decided to play it for the first time in many, many years. Let's see if it holds up!

 

[Lilo_D]

No, and not even close

 

[amardilo]

I think I am missing something every time I try to play Hallow Knight I find it hard to navigate or figure out what I am meant to do. It looks great and often gets praised but I find it difficult to get going with that game.

 

[duckroll]

Hollow Knight is a huge game. It has tons of value. It's really impressive as an indie effort. I enjoyed it. I don't love it though because it overstays its welcome. It's very much designed with the philosophy that more is better and that every idea is worth pursuing and trying just for variety and content's sake. The same sort of philosophy that goes into Ubisoft games and a lot of modern RPGs. With the rising price of gaming, content is seen as value, and if a game has an overwhelming amount of content and has a good core foundation, it's easy to impress.

I prefer an experience that feels complete rather than overly expansive. If there is a ton of content but it feels like the sort of game that needs that much content to say what it wants to say, that can work great. But most of the time it just feels like a lot. Ori 1 has my pick as the best modern game of this sort. It's really tight and feels so complete. I loved Ori 2 too but I feel having the town hub and the optional quests moved it in a direction I don't prefer for this genre.

So I've never played Supr Metroid but I've played Metroid 2 and Metroid Fusion and honestly, Super would need to be twice as good as those games to come close to Hollow Knight. Is it that good, or is it a you had to be there thing?

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Metroid 2 is pretty good, Fusion is way too talky and bloated, Zero Mission is the best of the non-Super Metroid entries and in some ways I find it comparable to Super Metroid. It's a pretty high bar in terms of pacing and moment by moment design.

 

[apocat]

So I've never played Supr Metroid but I've played Metroid 2 and Metroid Fusion and honestly, Super would need to be twice as good as those games to come close to Hollow Knight. Is it that good, or is it a you had to be there thing?

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It's far better than those two instalments. It's a genre-defining game and a true classic, and playing it when it first came out was a magical experience. I still like Hollow Knight more, though.

 

[Birdseeding]

I only tried Hollow Knight for about an hour, but I really hated it. It's a game that punishes you for exploring, throwing you into lock-in boss battles you're not prepared for and when you inevitably die you lose a bunch of your resources and have to grind to get them back. Totally sucks any fun out of playing.

 

[Ernest]

I only tried Hollow Knight for about an hour, but I really hated it. It's a game that punishes you for exploring, throwing you into lock-in boss battles you're not prepared for and when you inevitably die you lose a bunch of your resources and have to grind to get them back. Totally sucks any fun out of playing.

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[War95]

Hollow Knight is nowhere near Symphony of the Night. I enjoyed the game but as a metroidvania has a lot of problems imo

 

[Aether]

Why are Switch versions of games rated higher? afaik both HK and Ori run worse on Switch vs PC, but PC is rated lower.



HK is actually even below Blind Forest for PC if that means anything to you all. Era being the gaming aficionado website knows best.
I don't trust Era after the goty voting.

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i mean they are all within margin of error.

@topic:
hollow knight is like BotW: a flawed masterpiece.
Metroid is a better metroid
Aria of sorrow is a better Castelvania

(i love symphonie, but compared to AoS it has the problems people keep attributing to hollow knight: to long (inverted castle is kinda more of the same, and already seen locations), skills/features that are rather useless for a plain run (the magic? i think 90% of people did not use that).

And while hollow knight has a slightly to slow start for its own good and an rolercoaster as a dificulty curve, it still excells in:
- openness (after the first ~3 hours it essentially becomes an open world game with endless ways to progress)
- battles (neither metroid nor castlevania come even close to the bosfights of hollow knight, especially late game where it gets really tight and reminds me more of mega man zero than a metroidvania)
- world building (castles always seemes like a collection of horror tropes, and metroid was always more a cave system than a living world, prime was the first to truly add lore)
-the ost is on par with the other 2
-story (honestly, metroid never had a good one, and symphony, while not bad, is nothing special)

I mean, i get it, the game can drag on if you compare it to those prior that you can finish without stressing in <5h,
and the speed in which you get new traversal options is way slower compared to metroid (its good in the beginning, but can tank when you essentially have the core ones)

Honestly, those 3 are just different games for me.
Metroid: tight traversal and "where is the next upgrade" game,
Castlevania: fun good looking hack n slash with grinding/leveling,
Hollow Knight: open worldly exploration game with mega man zero inspired tight boss fights

the last one can be slower paced, but also often excells in atmosphere and tight gameplay.
Thats why im curious how Silksong will be, since Hornet is more nimble, maybe it will improve the problem of "slow" that people have with hollow knight. (also, to those that have a problem with the map... i don't get you, it makes sense in the lore and challenges you to keep a mental map when you enter a new area for the first time)

 

[Christo750]

I just finished Symphony of the Night for the first time, and I thought it was cool but wayyyy too obtuse. I'm honestly surprised anyone figured anything out about how to get to the reverse castle back then. The DS Castlevanias are IMO better than it. Either Dawn of Sorrow or Order of Ecclesia is the best, and Super Metroid is on par with Zero Mission, which is admittedly way more linear and less "Metroidvania".

Either way, I think Hollow Knight has that Symphony of the Night problem where it's a little too obtuse, but it's definitely earned its place among those other games. Even if I think it's in 3rd place.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

Some things are so abundantly obvious that they do not need to be stated with every single post. Otherwise the admins could just put an automatic "WARNING!! The following was posted by a human being and is their opinion!!" banner above every single post. But that would be incredibly obnoxious, so they don't.

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What's amusing about this back-and-forth is that there have been discussions on Era about how sad it is that people have to post "in my opinion" at the end of sentences for fear of folks getting too defensive and shit if they don't. No one should have to say "I prefer" or "in my opinion" in a thread like this. Just silly nonsense.

 

[Deleted member 2317]

I love all three games but HK is the clear winner here.

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[Hakkesshu]

I thought Hollow Knight was an okay game, but I feel like it's an 8/10 game that everyone talks about like it's a 10/10. Not sure I quite understand the extreme love for it, but it's definitely well-made, I just thought it was way too repetitive and the big focus on fuck-off bosses didn't really do it for me, as I don't think the combat was that fun.

 

[Rei Toei]

I adored Hollow Knight, but I never (completely) finished it because the hardcore platforming/general dificulty end-game wasn't my cuppa. So I'll stick with SotN as the holy grail of metroidvanias because of the whole package. Shitload of gear and spells to combine (and abuse), ridiculous cool sprite work, haunting soundtrack (I mean, Yamane must really like Jean Michel Jarre) and the suavest of suave protagonists.

 

[GOOCHY]

I'm sorry, but Hollow Knight is nowhere near either Super Metroid or Castlevania Symphony of the Night. HK's pacing alone (bloat!) ensure that it isn't on the same level.

 

[osnameless]

I mean, i get it, the game can drag on if you compare it to those prior that you can finish without stressing in <5h,
and the speed in which you get new traversal options is way slower compared to metroid (its good in the beginning, but can tank when you essentially have the core ones)

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I like this in particular about Hollow Knight. The space between traversal upgrades that actually give the game a breathing space.

Borh Ori games throw upgrades at you in such a quick manner.

Ori 2 (maybe because I played it recently) in particular has a very familiar structure, like you can tell when and you will get an upgrade, and even what the upgrade is before getting it.

Every area where there's a wisp consists of two parts, the first part is a platforming challenge that tests your competence with the previous upgrades you have, and the second part is dedicated to the upgrade you got in this area after you reach the tree.

Every single key area in Ori 2 is structured like that.

Hollow Knight is nothing like that at all. You don't know when you will get the next upgrade.

I will say this again, Ori is designed as a video game while Hollow Knight is designed as a journey. This what makes Hollow Knight the better metroidvania in a nutshell, even though you can have more fun and a better experience with the Ori games.

 

[Starlatine]

played hollow knight a while ago on gp. thought it was okay, fun but very punishing, not much of a fan of the artstyle but it didnt bother me. then i dropped the game for a while, and tried to come back to it recently. i'm in the middle of a white zone with no map and very tough monsters right outside the save bench area. i have no way to go back to the city or any other place, i just die, back to the save point, try to find somewhere else in the middle of a no map (because this character is apparently too dumb to even map the runs its been on by itself), die again, etcetera. so i just said "meh" and gave up. theres a fun game in there but some design decisions just don't gel well with me

 

[GoatLink]

Never was that fan of metroid. But I'm a huge fan of Igarashi's castlevanias. Though Hollow Knight surpassed it imo. It's my personal GOTG and I love it's atmosphere and music.

 

[GattsuSama]

We are getting this thread more and more often. Hopefully it dies down like the Undertale stuff did.

Hollow Knight is a great game, among the best metroidvanias but nowhere close to number 1.

Hollow Knight will never and can never beat the nostalgia of the classic games when it has not done anything revolutionizing enough to be the king.

 

[No Depth]

I'm edging close to 20 hours into HK right now and it just keeps surprising me. The optional content is dense and engaging. It feels rare that I am stumbling through corridors only to find a weapon that is useless compared to current equips, or finally uncovering a path to another cache of needless missiles totals. Instead, most every side discovery offers a unique boss battle with a bit of nuanced world lore or rewards that come across as useful or at minimum, get me thinking about my current charm selection.

It's constant forward momentum. There is just so much of it. There is freedom, but rarely feeling lost. Despite stumbling in the dark often surrounded by the unknown, there is a sense that you are always funneled in the right direction. I can't count the times I've felt extreme anxiety and tension, concerned over my Geo count and lack of map, only to realize just how connected everything is after squirming my way through dark and danger.

Though I do find you are hobbled too long on a lack of charm slots. The fast heal is just too useful to not have on, which limits the remaining choices. Could be my personal journey has ended up with very few slots discovered, where others may have uncovered expansions sooner, but it's been a tease to have numerous charms I can't experiment with due to my own stubbornness to give up fast heal.

I get many of the complaints I read in this thread, I can see where many chose to quit at similar points I struggled with, even very early in. Yet, I am very happy I chose to press on as I am fascinated now to uncover every inch and secret of this world. My combat adeptness keeps improving. Each fight, boss or otherwise, has their patterns or tricks and I am enjoying each one.

I still hold fondness for the classics, but already I am in agreement that HK is an exercise in taking such inspiration and doing so many bold well-executed concepts with the framework. It's really a fascinating game to analyze.

 

[Starlatine]

It's constant forward momentum. There is just so much of it. There is freedom, but rarely feeling lost.

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Maybe i'm just really stupid then cause i never not felt lost in this game

 

[Hu3]

Maybe i'm just really stupid then cause i never not felt lost in this game

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You are supposed to feel lost it's the theme of the game isolation, a ruined kingdom, a descend into madness. But even when you get lost you can find your pathing.

 

[Starlatine]

You are supposed to feel lost it's the theme of the game isolation, a ruined kingdom, a descend into madness. But even when you get lost you can find your pathing.

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then i am indeed really stupid cause as i posted above i'm in this white area surrounded by unmapped area and simply can not get out of there and find a way back to the city and keep dying and respawning in the same place

 

[NediarPT88]

Hollow Knight is a huge game. It has tons of value. It's really impressive as an indie effort. I enjoyed it. I don't love it though because it overstays its welcome. It's very much designed with the philosophy that more is better and that every idea is worth pursuing and trying just for variety and content's sake. The same sort of philosophy that goes into Ubisoft games and a lot of modern RPGs. With the rising price of gaming, content is seen as value, and if a game has an overwhelming amount of content and has a good core foundation, it's easy to impress.

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Hell no, unless Ubisoft games have changed a lot since I've played them (Black Flag being the last one iirc). It has way more in common with From games in terms of content, where the exploration feels very rewarding and unpredictable with secrets hidden everywhere.

From what I've noticed big AAA have a tendency of recycling content to make the games bigger, that doesn't happen with Hollow Knight for the most part (and when it does it's usually good, like the dream version of boss fights that makes them much harder to match your late game abilities).

 

[Aether]

I like this in particular about Hollow Knight. The space between traversal upgrades that actually give the game a breathing space.

Borh Ori games throw upgrades at you in such a quick manner.

Ori 2 (maybe because I played it recently) in particular has a very familiar structure, like you can tell when and you will get an upgrade, and even what the upgrade is before getting it.

Every area where there's a wisp consists of two parts, the first part is a platforming challenge that tests your competence with the previous upgrades you have, and the second part is dedicated to the upgrade you got in this area after you reach the tree.

Every single key area in Ori 2 is structured like that.

Hollow Knight is nothing like that at all. You don't know when you will get the next upgrade.

I will say this again, Ori is designed as a video game while Hollow Knight is designed as a journey. This what makes Hollow Knight the better metroidvania in a nutshell, even though you can have more fun and a better experience with the Ori games.

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while you're 100% right, this feels like a response to the ori 2 thread more than to this one xD

with hollow knight, i se many more areas where i could go with an upgrade, but this can be hours away from me. with ori, when i have seem such a place, the chance was high that i would get the upgrad in the next 10-30 minutes.

 

[Hu3]

then i am indeed really stupid cause as i posted above i'm in this white area surrounded by unmapped area and simply can not get out of there and find a way back to the city and keep dying and respawning in the same place

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I think you are in the ancient basin, just go up all the way up, you are going to see a light on the roof go up and take the tram back to the beginning.

 

[osnameless]

while you're 100% right, this feels like a response to the ori 2 thread more than to this one xD

with hollow knight, i se many more areas where i could go with an upgrade, but this can be hours away from me. with ori, when i have seem such a place, the chance was high that i would get the upgrad in the next 10-30 minutes.

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Exactly this! Getting an upgrade is impactful. It re-contextualizes the areas you have already been, and it makes each playthrough very different depending where you decide to go first. It helps a lot that Hollow Knight nails the interconnectedness aspect of a metroidvania.

I love the pacing of Hollow Knight actually, which apparently was one of the big issues for a lot of people who didn't like Hollow Knight.

The second thing is that I felt I mastered the upgrades I already have in Hollow Knight in a much more meaningful way than Ori 2.

If you go back a few pages, there's a long discussion about Ori and Hollow Knight.

(and when it does it's usually good, like the dream version of boss fights that makes them much harder to match your late game abilities).

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The Dream Nail is one of my favorite upgrades of maybe any game. It's solely dedicated to the progression of the story at first before you upgrade it so you can use it as mean for teleportation.

It's a very good example on how Hollow Knight integrates abilities, progression, and lore, which might be what makes it such a special experience above all else in my eyes that gives its world that organic feeling.

 

[NediarPT88]

The Dream Nail is one of my favorite upgrades of maybe any game. It's solely dedicated to the progression of the story at first before you upgrade it so you can use it as mean for teleportation.

It's a very good example on how Hollow Knight integrates abilities, progression, and lore, which might be what makes it such a special experience above all else in my eyes that gives its world that organic feeling.

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Yeah it's fantastic.

I wonder if Silksong will have something similar.