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Has Evo Moment #37 (aka Daigo Parry) had an negative effect on the Street Fighter series?

Neilunik

Neilunik

Member
Jan 23, 2018
437
kingslunk said:
That isn't a parry. Thats the "focus attack" move.
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that's a parry canceled by a drive rush

You can't drive rush or dash out of a focus attack. FADC doesn't exist in this game. If you Drive Impact, you have to commit (drive impact is the official name of the focus attack)

Parries have a blue feedback
Drive rush a green feedback
Drive impact a paint/multicolor feedback
 
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Ishmae1

Ishmae1

Creative Director, Microsoft
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
539
Seattle, WA
I think parry (SFIII's version) is great for many characters in the roster, not for others. Essentially parry can invalidate fireball / ranged play if it's not accompanied by quick / close aggression to follow it up, meaning you need a toolset that has closing capabilities.

Necro, Remy, and Twelve (IMO) suffer because of parry, as their games are typically at medium range or longer with telegraphed windups, where reaction to pokes / moves can be easily countered by parry.

Curious to see how the next SF handles this and still accommodates ranged characters ('Sim if the rumors are true) without negating their gameplay.
 
Jonathan Lanza

Jonathan Lanza

"I've made a Gigantic mistake"
Member
Feb 8, 2019
6,796
Zombegoast said:
Parries in SF3, killed fireballs, jump ins and anti air and you have this game where people played Chun Li
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This is the part where I fall off the train. Saying Parries killed jump ins and anti air is like saying teching kills throws. Jumping in is just another mix up situation in Third Strike and there's no single right answer at all times. Ryu's cr.HP might get parried and punished for sure but that can be worked around by either cancelling cr.HP into another move which forces the attacker to have to do multiple parries or by using a neutral jump attack as an Anti-air which comes out much faster. And since doing an air attack sacrifices trip guard in 3S, you also the option to walk back and hit them with a low sweep.

Note that every single one of these options has some risk to it if the opponent see's it coming. If they know you're gonna go for 5 hits they'll be ready to parry all 5. If they know you're gonna go for a much faster option then they'll prepare for that. If they know you're gonna try and sweep them then they won't attack and so forth.

I get that people might not like working around parries like this but the only thing I'd argue that it actually might kill is fireballs and that's only because you get meter for parrying. Otherwise 3S is a game where a lot of different moves can have different uses depending on the player so it ends up being a game where "Enemy Jumped = Anti Air = I did it!" really applies.
 

ErrorJustin

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,464
As a fighting game ultra-casual (story mode only basically) that likes to watch high-level play, I like the tension and the increase in skill cap that perfect parries introduce.

There are things that are technically possible to pull off (Daigo parries) but they are *very* hard to do - even at a professional level. So this adds a very interesting level of gamesmanship and psychology to pro matchups in my uneducated opinion. 9 times out of 10 (or maybe 97/100) the super move chips out the opponent. But with a parry system in place both players know there is a prayer of a chance they could parry it all and punish+win.

It reminds me of a basketball player pulling up to shoot wait outside of the 3pt line or someone like Messi bombing a perfect curving shot from way outside the box. Maybe it doesn't work a lot but it also does work sometimes, and importantly, the threat is always there.

Although I do recognize that a key difference is those are explosive, flashy, offensive play vs. the defensive, turtling style of play that strong parry systems encourage.

I guess mainly I just like the concept that there are things that are technically achievable but are still quite difficult to do executionally, even by pros. I don't want all pro play to be spacing, game sense. I want some of it to still be focused on physical execution.
 
Ra

Ra

Rap Genius
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
12,203
Dark Space
Daigo: I need to see more of the offensive tools to see if they balance out the parry ability. I'm probably over thinking this. I'm confident Capcom has thought this through and we're a year from release anyway.

Mago: NOOOOOOOOOO NONONONONONONONONONONOWTFMNONONONONONONONO NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONOOOOOOOO WHAT HAVE YOU DONE, CAPCOM YOU FOOOOOOLS NOOOOOOOOOO AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Lmao
 
jett

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,653
Mago's videos are hilarious. Man's got PTSD.

I do think Capcom may be giving too much importance to a few loudmouths that act like 3rd Strike is the greatest thing ever. Personally I'm indifferent to parries. Who knows how it might affect high level play in SF6 at this point, but it does seem like SF6 has a whole bunch of defensive options without a way to really explode offensively like in SFV.

Scotia said:
The idea that parries was what killed SF3 is hilarious
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Dunno about parries killing SF3, but 3S did kill Capcom fighting games for like a decade tho.

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Deleted member 1102

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,295
jett said:
Mago's videos are hilarious. Man's got PTSD.

I do think Capcom may be giving too much importance to a few loudmouths that act like 3rd Strike is the greatest thing ever. Personally I'm indifferent to parries. Who knows how it might affect high level play in SF6 at this point, but it does seem like SF6 has a whole bunch of defensive options without a way to really explode offensively like in SFV.



Dunno about parries killing SF3, but 3S did kill Capcom fighting games for like a decade tho.

590656270374273034.webp
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And Ono brought them back before nearly killing them again.

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inner-G

inner-G

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
14,473
PNW
I would tend to agree.

SF2 is still the peak of the series for me, adding more stuff hasn't made it better.
 
ThatCrazyGuy

ThatCrazyGuy

Member
Nov 27, 2017
9,848
I love 3S, but I am also glad that parry system stayed there. It is what it is, was great within that. I would never say it was perfect though, it has many flaws. Parry itself, and 3S in general. I thought Yun/genei-yin was dumb/unfun to play against. It was more fun for me to play against Chun (with all her issues).

As for what parries did, within the context of that system.

- It killed fireballs in the traditional sense. I just thought of these as just another long poke move (with some extra utility for the EX versions) and something to initiate action/sequences. Plus what Remy and Oro were doing was different with them as well. Plus there was dashes to cover space, which was part of the stew as well.
- It killed the traditional jump-in/anti-air interaction? Probably, but it created something new in it's place. Not better or worse, just different. It was it's own thing and it's mind games within those micro interactions. I liked it. It wasn't like other games, and that was the point I assume. They did take some minor variety layers away when they took away the air-down parry in 3S, but it was fine. Air parries made air to air interaction fun too. Plus adding a decision layer, should I jump and try to anti-air them with an air-air (if they are just jumping into parry what you throw out), instead of staying on the ground. A jump forward/neutral/back button? Anti air ground button into a another move? Do the button, don't do the next move and wait for the parry? Do nothing? wait for their empty jump? it was fun.

3S parries did affect the poke/neutral game (sometimes not for the better) and it did favor some characters move kits more.

Parry in 6 doesn't seem to be the same though, so everybody should be wait and see. I like to hear the concerns too.
 
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JusDoIt

JusDoIt

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,662
South Central Los Angeles
Issen said:
And they'd be right! I wish SF nowadays was more like Alpha in all regards including visuals.
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Alpha 2 and 3 are aesthetically attractive games, but Custom Combos and especially V-ISM ruined high level play. There's a reason their competitive scenes are smaller than ST and 3S.

Even Daigo when talking about his love for Alpha 3 mentions V-ISM killing the game.
 
hikarutilmitt

hikarutilmitt

Member
Dec 16, 2017
11,409
Rhaknar said:
oh surre, I'm just saying Alpha 3 is busted as fuck. Doesnt that game have a bunch of infinites because of V-ISM? this video always makes me laugh

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This video seriously busted my brain, because as much as he bitches about grapplers, it's also hilarious to see people bitch about being beat by a grappler because they got conditioned or just outplayed in general. There's a whoooole lot of salt, there.
 
Xwing

Xwing

Unshakable Resolve - One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 11, 2017
9,876
Ra said:
Daigo: I need to see more of the offensive tools to see if they balance out the parry ability. I'm probably over thinking this. I'm confident Capcom has thought this through and we're a year from release anyway.

Mago: NOOOOOOOOOO NONONONONONONONONONONOWTFMNONONONONONONONO NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONOOOOOOOO WHAT HAVE YOU DONE, CAPCOM YOU FOOOOOOLS NOOOOOOOOOO AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Lmao
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Yup, this is what it boils down to. Reasonable take from Daigo, salt from Mago, OP jumping to conclusions.
 
VariantX

VariantX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,880
Columbia, SC
JusDoIt said:
Alpha 2 and 3 are aesthetically attractive games, but Custom Combos and especially V-ISM ruined high level play. There's a reason their competitive scenes are smaller than ST and 3S.

Even Daigo when talking about his love for Alpha 3 mentions V-ISM killing the game.
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Yeah its kind of sad looking back that the game essentially was pick V-Ism or lose. I wonder if Capcom reigned V-Ism in on the home ports a bit because I never played A3 seriously enough to know the difference versus the home ports.
 
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