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Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,114
This behavior from Nvidia is absolutely appalling. And I am seriously hoping that this instance results in severe repurcussions because I am fricking tired of large corporations lording their position over folks, and using BS, thinly masked reasons to cover up the ugly roots of their outright greed.

It's one of the reasons why I love watching Gamer's Nexus, as I feel more than any other channel, they are 100% neutral and equal opportunity in ripping anyone and everyone apart in their reviews.
I'm pretty sure Gamers Nexus don't get free cards from NVIDIA either.

By this very Logic, Trump should be allowed to get everything he wants, Free Press be damned, just because he's the President.

Cannot agree with this position, at all. The point of reviewers is so folks can have an (hopefully - Reviewer depending ) unbiased, no spin attached opinion on matters and make an informed decision.

It's reasons like this why Consumer Reports exist. The Better Business Bureau exists, and also why there are laws in the books that don't allow companies to bill you for a product you received in the email unsolicited.

It's to stop shady BS. And to allow folks to be informed.

As was pointed out, Nvidia benefits from this transaction, and HAS benefited from their transactions with Hardware Unboxed, seeing as they have used their quotes from their reviews in regards to DLSS and RTX directly on their own website. Mark me, this will have repercussions, we just may not ever know the full extent of them. But it has soured my mood on Nvidia greatly because I abhor bullies.

I literally have zero comprehension on why ANYONE would be against the ability to freely make an informed, well thought out decision for themselves when it comes to their hard earned money.
Nothing is preventing Hardware Unboxed from purchasing these GPUs.
They are not banned from anything. They just don't get free hardware in advance from NVIDIA any more.
They will still receive hardware from AIBs and access to pre-release drivers/materials.

If anything, this situation highlights exactly why independent reviewers should be purchasing the hardware themselves - to avoid a conflict of interest.
 

TCi

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
661
I'm pretty sure Gamers Nexus don't get free cards from NVIDIA either.


Nothing is preventing Hardware Unboxed from purchasing these GPUs.
They are not banned from anything. They just don't get free hardware in advance from NVIDIA any more.
They will still receive hardware from AIBs and access to pre-release drivers/materials.

If anything, this situation highlights exactly why independent reviewers should be purchasing the hardware themselves - to avoid a conflict of interest.
The whole point of getting their cards from the manufacturer is to have their review out when it launches, or even before. Like Linux said in his rant, the first few days a product launches is critical for a publication to get their review out.

I do agree with the sentiment, but it really doesn't work like that for larger reviewers.
 

Simuly

Alt-Account
Banned
Jul 8, 2019
1,281
I'm pretty sure Gamers Nexus don't get free cards from NVIDIA either.


Nothing is preventing Hardware Unboxed from purchasing these GPUs.
They are not banned from anything. They just don't get free hardware in advance from NVIDIA any more.
They will still receive hardware from AIBs and access to pre-release drivers/materials.

If anything, this situation highlights exactly why independent reviewers should be purchasing the hardware themselves - to avoid a conflict of interest.

I hear you but you are underestimating how widespread press getting free samples is and how crucial it is to their business of reviewing products. If they have to wait for release like everyone else for all their products they'll no longer be the go to for the millions deciding which card or CPU to buy.

Even a channel like NXGamer, who is excellent, gets seeded content from console manufacturers and he has 1/10th the sub numbers as HU.
 

Draconis

Member
Oct 28, 2017
568
I'm pretty sure Gamers Nexus don't get free cards from NVIDIA either.


Nothing is preventing Hardware Unboxed from purchasing these GPUs.
They are not banned from anything. They just don't get free hardware in advance from NVIDIA any more.
They will still receive hardware from AIBs and access to pre-release drivers/materials.

If anything, this situation highlights exactly why independent reviewers should be purchasing the hardware themselves - to avoid a conflict of interest.

You clearly didn't watch the Wan Show Video I feel. I don't think you know how it goes with AIB partners either.

Nvidia has to approve those as well, for reviews.

Board Partners send their list of reviewers to Nvidia for approval.

So, in my opinion, yes. They are Blacklisted.


In addition, whether other reviewers buy their cards or are sent samples is moot, and I feel is an obfuscation of the facts in an attempt to disguise absolutely inexcusable behavior. Gamers Nexus is no stranger to companies being beyond pissed at them trust me. But they live by their reputation regardless of that ire because they built a brand that is synonymous with Trust.

Nvidia is not the good guys here. They are sending a clearly, and strongly worded strongarm message of " Toe the line " or suffer the consequences, and it has deeper implications for other tech channels as well.

This is not a good look for Nvidia. Period, and no amount of hand waving, or attempts at obfuscation of the facts will prevent folks from seeing the email staring them in the face.
 
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Nov 2, 2017
2,275
The whole point of getting their cards from the manufacturer is to have their review out when it launches, or even before. Like Linux said in his rant, the first few days a product launches is critical for a publication to get their review out.

I do agree with the sentiment, but it really doesn't work like that for larger reviewers.
You'd be right for most products but GPUs are a bit special with how mutliple companies sell Nvidia GPU who can still send them cards. For HU this decision has very little effect on them. It's only inconvenient for consumers who are thinking about buying an FE. I noticed in their 3060Ti review that the FE was missing so I assume they didn't get one yet they still had a review ready on time.

This just look terrible on Nvidia for very little reason imo. I guess they assumed their strongarm tactic would work.

You clearly didn't watch the Wan Show Video I feel. I don't think you know how it goes with AIB partners either.

Nvidia has to approve those as well, for reviews.

Board Partners send their list of reviewers to Nvidia for approval.

So, in my opinion, yes. They are Blacklisted.
Read the last paragraph of the mail Nvidia sent to HU. They'll still provide HU with pre-release drivers and press materials (as they still want the marketing of their GPUs) so they're only withholding FE cards.
 

Draconis

Member
Oct 28, 2017
568
You'd be right for most products but GPUs are a bit special with how mutliple companies sell Nvidia GPU who can still send them cards. For HU this decision has very little effect on them. It's only inconvenient for consumers who are thinking about buying an FE. I noticed in their 3060Ti review that the FE was missing so I assume they didn't get one yet they still had a review ready on time.

This just look terrible on Nvidia for very little reason imo. I guess they assumed their strongarm tactic would work.


Read the last paragraph of the mail Nvidia sent to HU. They'll still provide HU with pre-release drivers and press materials (as they still want the marketing of their GPUs) so they're only withholding FE cards.

I did.

That statement will not change the fact that Board Partners have to submit their list of reviewers to Nvidia for approval.

If Nvidia is already strongarming them over FE's, and controls all channels of reviews even with AIB's...do you really trust them to allow day one reviews for AIB's? Bearing in mind Nvidia does not allow AIB reviews to happen until well after FE card reviews?

And further bearing in mind Nvidia has a seriously well documented history of screwing their board partners over?

If Nvidia sees the list from AIB's with Hardware Unboxed on that for reviews, whose to say they can't delay that review? Much less outright deny it?

The email already demonstrates shitty behavior. I am not under the belief that they will not double down on that as Nvidia has engaged in shameful behavior for decades
 

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,114
You clearly didn't watch the Wan Show Video I feel. I don't think you know how it goes with AIB partners either.
Nvidia has to approve those as well, for reviews.
Board Partners send their list of reviewers to Nvidia for approval.
So, in my opinion, yes. They are Blacklisted.
I had not, because frankly Linus has a lot of hot takes which come across as misinformed at the best of times - to the point that he's had to put out several apology videos recently - so I generally avoid his content.
But this is clearly a subject where he is very informed, since it's what he does.
For anyone that wants the relevant section, instead of watching all 35 minutes, it's timestamped here at 25:35


It sounds like, even if AIBs were to provide cards, one of the issues is that AIB cards have a later embargo than Founders Edition cards so they miss out on that.
And NVIDIA is in the position to prevent them from getting AIB cards too; essentially saying "oh, sorry, that first batch of cards was allocated to someone else" rather than withholding them outright.

In addition, whether other reviewers buy their cards or are sent samples is moot, and I feel is an obfuscation of the facts in an attempt to disguise absolutely inexcusable behavior. Gamers Nexus is no stranger to companies being beyond pissed at them trust me. But they live by their reputation regardless of that ire because they built a brand that is synonymous with Trust.
I hardly think it's a moot point that one of the most-cited/reputable publications buys their own hardware, when people are acting like this is a death sentence for Hardware Unboxed.
I've done product reviews before, and had Samsung blacklist us based on a review that I wrote because it wasn't all glowing praise like many of the other publications (based on technical measurements and subjective impressions) and it was not a huge deal - the cost of buying the products for review was a minor expense, all things considered, and it got us to start seeking partnerships with retailers instead - which was ultimately a benefit.
But that was not in an industry where day-one reviews are apparently such a big deal - though I do suspect that Linus' view is skewed on that based on his position. Digital Foundry's reviews are one of the few outlets that I look to for PC hardware reviews, and they often arrive later in the week. They still don't seem to have published a Ryzen 5000 review, unless I've overlooked it?

Nvidia is not the good guys here. They are sending a clearly, and strongly worded strongarm message of " Toe the line " or suffer the consequences, and it has deeper implications for other tech channels as well.
This is not a good look for Nvidia. Period, and no amount of hand waving, or attempts at obfuscation of the facts will prevent folks from seeing the email staring them in the face.
I certainly don't think it's a good look for NVIDIA, but I still don't think that they should be obligated to continue supporting outlets when they don't feel that it benefits them to do so.
Linus is right that it does come across as oddly personal/vindictive, and he says that it's also not what he would expect from having dealt with that specific PR person before. So maybe there's something more to it.
 

Freshmaker

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,946
I certainly don't think it's a good look for NVIDIA, but I still don't think that they should be obligated to continue supporting outlets when they don't feel that it benefits them to do so.
Linus is right that it does come across as oddly personal/vindictive, and he says that it's also not what he would expect from having dealt with that specific PR person before. So maybe there's something more to it.
Thinking about it, Hardware Unboxed's main separation from most other review outlets is their dedication to a massive stack of games they benchmark with. This gives them more data points than most. It also tends to better illustrate relative strengths and weaknesses of the respective hardware they're reviewing.

If they were to focus on RT enabled titles, that would severely restrict what games they could add to their review benches, and at the same time, it would give NVIDIA a significant advantage on those benches.

Right when AMD finally caught them in rasterization performance on all levels.

Doesn't strike me as personal. It strikes me as the main brunt of their review energy going to rasterization apart from Tim's deep dives into RT performance means that it simply doesn't bury AMD.
 
Nov 8, 2017
13,247
Doesn't strike me as personal. It strikes me as the main brunt of their review energy going to rasterization apart from Tim's deep dives into RT performance means that it simply doesn't bury AMD.

It strikes me as very personal. I can't think of any outlets that only test RT games. Most reviews seem to be a mix of RT and non-RT, with non-RT being a majority. Every major outlet mentions the major cost of RT, regardless of whether their conclusion is that it's worth it to enable the effects or not.

I'm obviously not privy to anything secret here, but the impression I get is that this is more like someone senior (or perhaps multiple people) at Nvidia deciding they overall don't like the outlet, and that whatever percieved slight they have now is a straw-that-broke-the-camel's back, not an inciting incident.

We've had discussions on this very forum where people (including myself) have mentioned they got an impression that HUB skewed a bit AMD. And if we discussed it here, months and years ago, then it's very likely imo that HUB was on a dart board somewhere at Nvidia in some brand manager's office.
 

Freshmaker

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,946
It strikes me as very personal. I can't think of any outlets that only test RT games. Most reviews seem to be a mix of RT and non-RT, with non-RT being a majority. Every major outlet mentions the major cost of RT, regardless of whether their conclusion is that it's worth it to enable the effects or not.
None cover as many games in their benchmarks. Jay runs some synthetic benchmarks and Tomb Raider mostly. Gamers Nexus runs a few game benches. LTT hits like 5 games?

The skewing AMD stuff smacks of conspiracy theories if the evidence in those threads is anything like what was uh... "presented" in this one.
 

dgrdsv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,028
I certainly don't think it's a good look for NVIDIA, but I still don't think that they should be obligated to continue supporting outlets when they don't feel that it benefits them to do so.
Yeah, how can they stop sending free stuff to people who dismiss and ignore years of hard work which they as a company has put into RTX features? Clearly they are evil.

This has gone into a complete shit show on both ends at this point to be frank. NV handled this awfully but the reviewer community response isn't any better.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
Yeah, how can they stop sending free stuff to people who dismiss and ignore years of hard work which they as a company has put into RTX features? Clearly they are evil.

This has gone into a complete shit show on both ends at this point to be frank. NV handled this awfully but the reviewer community response isn't any better.

Think about what you're supporting here, that review samples should only be sent to outlets and people that are guaranteed to tow the company line and act more as a PR mouthpiece than an actual unbiased critics or reviewers.

Maybe HW Unboxed simply doesn't see as much value in RTX at this present time, but Nvidia has literally used his positive comments about DLSS in marketing, and in his recent review he essentially said that Nvidia owners are best advised to leave DLSS on due to how good it is now.

 
Nov 8, 2017
13,247
The skewing AMD stuff smacks of conspiracy theories if the evidence in those threads is anything like what was uh... "presented" in this one.

Not a conspiracy theory, it's a vibe I got. Every human on earth has biases, conscious or unconscious. I certainly don't believe they're frothing lunatic fanboys or something. I consider GN to be a cold and calculating reviewing machine for the most part, if only because for Steve at least this is a job, not something they seem to be doing that much of recreationally - he runs a very old system at home and doesn't seem to be that invested in his external life. GN goes into extreme methodological detail and cares deeply about the stats and how they're acquired. Digital Foundry loves shiny toys, and is very passionate about almost any advance - they're a very positive outlet that offers some interesting perspectives, but often in a narrow way where their depth of coverage comes at the expense of not being overly comprehensive.

I think for HUB, what gave me this vibe was when I was watching the Turing and first gen Navi reviews contrasted against their ongoing coverage about old GPUs. They were consistently impressed with how certain AMD architectures had aged well over time, but in the reviews were basically nonplussed by the potential advantages of Turing's forward looking feature set - not just RT, not just DLSS, but also other DX12u features like VRS support or mesh shader support. It struck me as a bit incongruous to on the one hand care about the longevity of cards, but on the other to not pay that much mind to lacking major and minor next gen features on the AMD card.

I got the impression that if the shoe was on the other foot, they probably would have been making a bigger deal. I have no way to prove that obviously, and that's why I'm saying this is a "vibe", a subjective impression. Fast forward to recent coverage, they talk a lot about the VRAM advantage on the AMD cards. And yeah, that is something that might result in some better perf long term (or at least, maintaining some higher v-ram related settings long term), but that's being pretty selective about what you care about for longevity. Does dramatically better RT performance not mean anything long term? Did the total absence of several major and minor imminent next gen features not harm OG Navi in their eyes?

You could argue that it's actually just the case that they have a very specific view of which features they do and do not care about, and there's no contradiction, and that the features where they do care strongly about are ones where Nvidia is weak, and the features they don't care about are where Nvidia is strong. But it strikes me personally as very process-argumentey.
 

Lafazar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,584
Bern, Switzerland
I was hoping we would get the other Linus also saying "Nvidia, fuck you". Golden opportunity missed :(
He kinda did (timestamp: 25:26):
www.youtube.com

NVIDIA might ACTUALLY be EVIL... - WAN Show December 11, 2020

Get a 15-day free trial for unlimited backup at https://backblaze.com/WANHoney automatically applies the best coupon codes to save you money at different onl...
And here (timestamp 39:33):
www.youtube.com

NVIDIA might ACTUALLY be EVIL... - WAN Show December 11, 2020

Get a 15-day free trial for unlimited backup at https://backblaze.com/WANHoney automatically applies the best coupon codes to save you money at different onl...
 
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DeathMonk

Member
Oct 28, 2017
66
The nvidia white knighting in this thread is sickening.

Weird theories and mental gymnastics abound.
 

Pasha

Banned
Jan 27, 2018
3,018
From what I've seen HU is an absolute AMD fanboy, he's pretty much the MooresLawIsDead of the hw reviewer world, so Nvidia blacklisting him from receiving free pre-release review samples shouldn't be surprise to anyone.
Nvidia with their email just simply pointed out the obvious thing that has been happening all this time in the tech reviewer world, which is access and free stuff for positive coverage. People like Linus acting shocked about this as they receive literally millions of dollars in free hardware every year is an absolute joke, I refuse to believe that these people are this naive.
 

Alvis

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,272
I'm physically unable to understand why anyone would defend Nvidia on this. You're literally fighting against your own interests by doing so
 
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tokkun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,440
I certainly don't think it's a good look for NVIDIA, but I still don't think that they should be obligated to continue supporting outlets when they don't feel that it benefits them to do so.

The part that is indefensible is that they are withdrawing support because the outlet's editorial coverage wasn't positive enough for Nvidia, and are offering to give that support back once the editorial stance is changed to be more favorable to Nvidia. I don't see how any objective observer sees that as anything other than offering a bribe.

If people in this thread want to come out in favor of corporations bribing reviewers for whatever reason, at least have the courage to do so openly. Don't try to hide behind limp-wristed straw man arguments like "no one is entitled to get free stuff." That is obviously not what the controversy is about.
 
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tokkun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,440
Yeah, how can they stop sending free stuff to people who dismiss and ignore years of hard work which they as a company has put into RTX features? Clearly they are evil.

I'm sure a lot of work went into developing Kane & Lynch. Does that excuse Eidos pressuring Gamespot to fire Jeff Gerstmann for giving it a negative review?
 

LordRuyn

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,912
e56bb079d6f6eb52a40cd93ae0af5350.png


Just took this from their website less than 30s ago. They can shove their 3090 where the sun don't shine, and I am saying that as someone who's never gone AMD in the last 15 years. I am with Linus on this, this is an evil ass move to make.

EDIT:
The part that is indefensible is that they are withdrawing support based because the outlet's editorial coverage wasn't positive enough for Nvidia, and are offering to give that support back once the editorial stance is changed to be more favorable to Nvidia. I don't see how any objective observer wouldn't view that as offering a bribe.

Exactly this. Either you support independent press or not, there's no being selective about it.
 

Sarek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
470
Just took this from their website less than 30s ago. They can shove their 3090 where the sun don't shine, and I am saying that as someone who's never gone AMD in the last 15 years. I am with Linus on this, this is an evil ass move to make.

Same for me. I am planning on upgrading my GPU next year and was originally looking at either 3060 or 3070. I don't want to support this kind of behavior though will get AMD card instead now.
 

CelestialAtom

Mambo Number PS5
Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,100
I am truly disappointed in NVIDIA for this. That is some fucked-up shit and they screwed up big time. I don't think I will be supporting NVIDIA much longer and may go to AMD for my next card.
 
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dgrdsv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,028
Think about what you're supporting here, that review samples should only be sent to outlets and people that are guaranteed to tow the company line and act more as a PR mouthpiece than an actual unbiased critics or reviewers.
I'm not supporting anything, I'm just looking at this situation from all angles with disgust mostly.
Nv is totally in their right to send free review samples to those who they want to send them to. It's their products and their choice. They won't get anything positive from removing HWU from those who get free reference cards at launch and thus this particular move is just plain stupid on their part.
Reviewers are totally in their rights to review Nv products however they want to. It's their right but it also comes with possible consequences when your review isn't liked by the manufacturer of the product for whatever reasons. HWU's multiyear ignorance on RTX features have backfired at them and this is to a surprise of no one who followed their reviews since Turing release really.

Maybe HW Unboxed simply doesn't see as much value in RTX at this present time, but Nvidia has literally used his positive comments about DLSS in marketing, and in his recent review he essentially said that Nvidia owners are best advised to leave DLSS on due to how good it is now.
So? They've said some good things, many bad things and some straight up incorrect and made up things. The problem isn't in what they've said, it's in their approach to providing data where they simply don't provide the whole set and omit numbers which they _think_ aren't interesting. It's an editorial choice on their part and it does result in them coming out as biased. Again no surprises about the outcome here.

Note that as I've said NV doesn't want them to _not post_ something. On the contrary they aren't happy about HWU _not posting_ the whole amount of data which they have. So while I don't like the way NV has treated the situation I don't think that they are in the wrong mind set here.
And as for youtubers calling NV names now - that's just as embarrassing as what NV has chosen to do and won't lead to any positive outcome for anyone involved in this feces throwing match.

I'm sure a lot of work went into developing Kane & Lynch. Does that excuse Eidos pressuring Gamespot to fire Jeff Gerstmann for giving it a negative review?
Negative review and no review are two completely different things.
If Gamespot wouldn't use their review copy to write a review then why would Eidos send them another one in the future?
This is basically the gist of NV's stance - if HWU doesn't write or use RTX in comparions what's the point of having them on the reviewers list?
Nv also doesn't pressure HWU into anything. They are free to continue with their editorial stance - just without the free review samples from NV now.
 

Doc Holliday

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,833
All nvidia had to say to HU was "no thanks, we're good" and not send any more products. It's dumb, but No harm done but that's not what they did.

they tried to pressure HU to cover them, aka market their product, how Nvidia wanted or else.

these YouTube reviewers have essentially replaced traditional marketing. It's much cheaper and effective to send HU a 3080 for review than place an ad somewhere. The downside is of course your product might get a bad review.

Nvidia basically is trying get guaranteed cheap marketing for their products, which is funny because they really don't need it. It's not like they have the stock anyway lol
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
I'm not supporting anything, I'm just looking at this situation from all angles with disgust mostly.
Nv is totally in their right to send free review samples to those who they want to send them to. It's their products and their choice. They won't get anything positive from removing HWU from those who get free reference cards at launch and thus this particular move is just plain stupid on their part.
Reviewers are totally in their rights to review Nv products however they want to. It's their right but it also comes with possible consequences when your review isn't liked by the manufacturer of the product for whatever reasons. HWU's multiyear ignorance on RTX features have backfired at them and this is to a surprise of no one who followed their reviews since Turing release really.


So? They've said some good things, many bad things and some straight up incorrect and made up things. The problem isn't in what they've said, it's in their approach to providing data where they simply don't provide the whole set and omit numbers which they _think_ aren't interesting. It's an editorial choice on their part and it does result in them coming out as biased. Again no surprises about the outcome here.

Note that as I've said NV doesn't want them to _not post_ something. On the contrary they aren't happy about HWU _not posting_ the whole amount of data which they have. So while I don't like the way NV has treated the situation I don't think that they are in the wrong mind set here.
And as for youtubers calling NV names now - that's just as embarrassing as what NV has chosen to do and won't lead to any positive outcome for anyone involved in this feces throwing match.


Negative review and no review are two completely different things.
If Gamespot wouldn't use their review copy to write a review then why would Eidos send them another one in the future?
This is basically the gist of NV's stance - if HWU doesn't write or use RTX in comparions what's the point of having them on the reviewers list?
Nv also doesn't pressure HWU into anything. They are free to continue with their editorial stance - just without the free review samples from NV now.

Please post evidence of them saying "many bad things and some straight up incorrect and made up things". Eg direct video links of them saying or doing these things. If you're going to level accusations like that, you ought to have the receipts to back it up.

Also, this point in your post

"Nv also doesn't pressure HWU into anything."

Are you actually for real? Did you read the email? The presumptuous bullying nature of it, essentially directly impacting their content and bottom line because they didn't comform to Nvidias exact PR preference.....If that isn't pressure from Nvidia, I don't know what is.
 

ThatOneGuy

Member
Dec 3, 2018
1,210
Yeah there's some weird defenses going on here. Of course nvidia has the right to not send there FE cards to anyone they don't want to, but to say that this is anything other than them strong arming and essentially blacklisting HU is just plain bs.
 

Alvis

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,272
Yeah there's some weird defenses going on here. Of course nvidia has the right to not send there FE cards to anyone they don't want to, but to say that this is anything other than them strong arming and essentially blacklisting HU is just plain bs.
I just don't understand why the hell we're supposed to care that they have the legal right to do it. No one is calling them criminals. We're calling them assholes. lol
 

leburn98

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,637
It's amazing to read the corporate boot licking that is going on from some individuals here. Actively arguing against your own interests as a consumer.

Could you imagine if a RPG games developer stated to a games reviewer that you must create this specific character type, make these specific chooses and go down this specific path, and anyone who deviated from these guidelines would no longer receive review copies in the future? This is essentially what Nvidia is doing, they are trying to dictate how their products are to be reviewed.

The reality is this, if Nvidia will only send FE samples to those that play ball, then Day One Nvidia product reviews are unfortunately compromised and should not be trusted. If Nvidia truly had faith in the product they were selling, they wouldn't do this.
 

shinken

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,921
It's amazing to read the corporate boot licking that is going on from some individuals here. Actively arguing against your own interests as a consumer.

Could you imagine if a RPG games developer stated to a games reviewer that you must create this specific character type, make these specific chooses and go down this specific path, and anyone who deviated from these guidelines would no longer receive review copies in the future? This is essentially what Nvidia is doing, they are trying to dictate how their products are to be reviewed.

The reality is this, if Nvidia will only send FE samples to those that play ball, then Day One Nvidia product reviews are unfortunately compromised and should not be trusted. If Nvidia truly had faith in the product they were selling, they wouldn't do this.
That's honestly a terrible comparison. The correct comparison would be a reviewer only talking about the story, characters, graphics and battle mechanics of an RPG, but they don't talk about the levelling up mechanics, which the developer think they've put a lot of time into creating it and feel it's really something special and sets it apart from other RPGs.
Nvidia wants HWU to talk more about RTX features and not solely focusing on rasterization.
 
Oct 26, 2017
19,845
That's honestly a terrible comparison. The correct comparison would be a reviewer only talking about the story, characters, graphics and battle mechanics of an RPG, but they don't talk about the levelling up mechanics, which the developer think they've put a lot of time into creating it and feel it's really something special and sets it apart from other RPGs.
Nvidia wants HWU to talk more about RTX features and not solely focusing on rasterization.
Your comparison somehow makes Nvidia sound even worse in my head, if that's at all possible.
 

TSM

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,846
Nvidia is obviously not going to come out of this looking good. I wonder if they relent in the face of other major reviewers stepping up to criticize them.
 

YuriLowell

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,588
Ray Tracing is cool but we are still 5-7 years away from cards that can do it well with minimal impact.
 

Pipyakas

Member
Jul 20, 2018
549
This is somewhat like Intel in recent years. Nvidia's cards are not impressive enough to win over absolutely anyone anymore, so they cant afford to let much AMD-biased day-1 coverage.
They could've just lied and used any other reason, but no, they had to assert their dominance by letting HUB know they "represent gamers".
 

Remark

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,632
From what I've seen HU is an absolute AMD fanboy, he's pretty much the MooresLawIsDead of the hw reviewer world, so Nvidia blacklisting him from receiving free pre-release review samples shouldn't be surprise to anyone.
Nvidia with their email just simply pointed out the obvious thing that has been happening all this time in the tech reviewer world, which is access and free stuff for positive coverage. People like Linus acting shocked about this as they receive literally millions of dollars in free hardware every year is an absolute joke, I refuse to believe that these people are this naive.
Legit don't know how people can sit here and say this.

I've watched HUB for a couple years now and while they do skew a bit to AMD at times there coverage of NVIDIA products has always been fair and they have always easily pointed out when NVIDIA is the better card and stated when features that NVIDIA has is way better than what you can get on the AMD side.

They have literally praised DLSS 2.0 and they have gone out of their way to make dedicated videos on NVIDIA features like Ray Tracing (whether positive or negative) but somehow they are fanboys on the same level as MooresLawIsDead?

The takes in this thread are insane.
 

DeathMonk

Member
Oct 28, 2017
66
Legit don't know how people can sit here and say this.

I've watched HUB for a couple years now and while they do skew a bit to AMD at times there coverage of NVIDIA products has always been fair and they have always easily pointed out when NVIDIA is the better card and stated when features that NVIDIA has is way better than what you can get on the AMD side.

They have literally praised DLSS 2.0 and they have gone out of their way to make dedicated videos on NVIDIA features like Ray Tracing (whether positive or negative) but somehow they are fanboys on the same level as MooresLawIsDead?

The takes in this thread are insane.

I primary watch HWU and GN. I've seen them called nvidia, amd and intel biased over the years depending on which way the wind is blowing.

It's ridiculous.
 

SapientWolf

Member
Nov 6, 2017
6,565
From what I've seen HU is an absolute AMD fanboy, he's pretty much the MooresLawIsDead of the hw reviewer world, so Nvidia blacklisting him from receiving free pre-release review samples shouldn't be surprise to anyone.
Nvidia with their email just simply pointed out the obvious thing that has been happening all this time in the tech reviewer world, which is access and free stuff for positive coverage. People like Linus acting shocked about this as they receive literally millions of dollars in free hardware every year is an absolute joke, I refuse to believe that these people are this naive.
You are gonna need some really good receipts for this take.
 

NaDannMaGoGo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,008
I'm not supporting anything, I'm just looking at this situation from all angles with disgust mostly.
Nv is totally in their right to send free review samples to those who they want to send them to. It's their products and their choice. They won't get anything positive from removing HWU from those who get free reference cards at launch and thus this particular move is just plain stupid on their part.
Reviewers are totally in their rights to review Nv products however they want to. It's their right but it also comes with possible consequences when your review isn't liked by the manufacturer of the product for whatever reasons. HWU's multiyear ignorance on RTX features have backfired at them and this is to a surprise of no one who followed their reviews since Turing release really.


So? They've said some good things, many bad things and some straight up incorrect and made up things. The problem isn't in what they've said, it's in their approach to providing data where they simply don't provide the whole set and omit numbers which they _think_ aren't interesting. It's an editorial choice on their part and it does result in them coming out as biased. Again no surprises about the outcome here.

Note that as I've said NV doesn't want them to _not post_ something. On the contrary they aren't happy about HWU _not posting_ the whole amount of data which they have. So while I don't like the way NV has treated the situation I don't think that they are in the wrong mind set here.
And as for youtubers calling NV names now - that's just as embarrassing as what NV has chosen to do and won't lead to any positive outcome for anyone involved in this feces throwing match.


Negative review and no review are two completely different things.
If Gamespot wouldn't use their review copy to write a review then why would Eidos send them another one in the future?
This is basically the gist of NV's stance - if HWU doesn't write or use RTX in comparions what's the point of having them on the reviewers list?
Nv also doesn't pressure HWU into anything. They are free to continue with their editorial stance - just without the free review samples from NV now.

Poor megacorp Nvidia! They're always so benevolent and sending out them free graphics cards with no ulterior intentions. Really, they just got taken advantage of by HU!

Not that it is surprising you write all this nonsense but acting like the dynamics and power at play here from Nvidia boil down to that childish nonsense when you've probably written more than a thousand angry posts concerning graphics cards on this forum makes it all the more transparent. Time to ignore this fanboy drivel.

The takes in this thread are insane.

It's really some bizarro world here. There's a difference between HU having some reasonably justified reservations against Raytracing and, well, less so DLSS itself, but how widely available it is, and this conspiracy nonsense the user I quoted above and a few others have. Perhaps my favorite is the guy downright saying he doesn't know Hardware Unboxed but adamantly puts the blame on them and demands to see the entire email because somehow the well-known, shady-ass Nvidia wouldn't do such a thing?!?!?
 
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Draconis

Member
Oct 28, 2017
568
Snipping most of this down to the one point I want to discuss. The rest of this is pretty much stuff that is personal opinion (Thoughts on Linus) or things I concur on. Also, a clarification, in case it might be misunderstood.

I am not in any way upset or angry while posting this. I just like to place emphasis on words and certain phrases because that is how I can elaborate, for lack of a better phrase, emphasis that I would be giving on certain parts if I were speaking aloud.

I hardly think it's a moot point that one of the most-cited/reputable publications buys their own hardware, when people are acting like this is a death sentence for Hardware Unboxed.
I've done product reviews before, and had Samsung blacklist us based on a review that I wrote because it wasn't all glowing praise like many of the other publications (based on technical measurements and subjective impressions) and it was not a huge deal - the cost of buying the products for review was a minor expense, all things considered, and it got us to start seeking partnerships with retailers instead - which was ultimately a benefit.
But that was not in an industry where day-one reviews are apparently such a big deal - though I do suspect that Linus' view is skewed on that based on his position. Digital Foundry's reviews are one of the few outlets that I look to for PC hardware reviews, and they often arrive later in the week. They still don't seem to have published a Ryzen 5000 review, unless I've overlooked it?


It absolutely is Moot in my opinion, and is hand waving as a defense, in order to obfuscate the fact that right now Nvidia is basically, as Linus put it, already at the point in the conversation where the Don has had your kneecaps shattered, just because you aren't towing the company line to serve out the opinions that They want you to.

It is also further pushing a dissonance that " Hey, you can just go buy a card for day 1 reviews, right? It shouldn't impact you too much, and you'll still survive, right? Other channels do! " When the fact is that these reviews happen when the Embargo lifts, before Preorders happen, which is a vital and critical juncture for views and revenue for any tech based channel, because viewers are not going to hit that channel en masse after the fact and neither is the algorithm after Embargo and Launch Day has passed on the same scale. To think otherwise is disingenuous.

It's also ignoring the twin facts outright that Hardware Unboxed is in Australia, where the prices are absolutely Astronomical for anything Tech related out there, in addition to the matter of ResetEra already having threads with Hundreds, possibly thousands of posts where no one here can even get a damned card because they are selling out in seconds, if not minutes, due to the damnable plague of scalpers snatching up everything with bots and then selling the cards for double, if not triple.

In what scenario is Nvidia NOT the bad guy here? Looking on in amusement as HUB is held up by two family goons while a third proceeds to instill the company line further by moving to break Hardware Unboxed's legs after their knee caps are long since broken, bloody, and shattered whilst saying the line of "should your editorial direction change".

That is Hyperbole yes. But that is literally how bad Nvidia looks in this whole affair to me, and Linus pretty much stated that outright himself. This whole affair, quite frankly reeks, and is put in the most succinct and eloquent way, Bullshit.

There is no avenue in which Nvidia looks GOOD in this. Period.

The Issue inherent here with this is that it ultimately does impact the bottom line. Digital Foundry is an anomaly, and cannot really be used in this argument I feel as everyone knows they usually take quite some time to do a thorough analysis. The same goes for Gamer's Nexus, who has spent countless years building up a brand solely on honesty and truth, and thus due to fan presence alone, are in a standing where it impacts them to a lesser degree and also where they can freely call people out on their outright BS. Which they frequently do.

With Tech channels, who usually get their review samples a few days before launch, especially with the recent 3000 Series of RTX cards, viewers absolutely look to their most trusted channels, often multiples of them, to get a feel for what the thoughts are on the product before it goes up for pre-order on the launch dates.

A Samsung blacklisting IMO is nowhere near as knee-capping, IMO, as a massive, brand new Graphics Card Launch from Nvidia.

The hand-waving that is going on here frustrates me. No one should be defending this intensely anti-consumer move. Because at the end of the day, that is EXACTLY what this is about. Nvidia being able to push reviewers to say what, and when they want, or **** YOU no more shiny day zero toys for you to review, because you aren't force feeding our consumers the ration of **** we want you to.

And I am glad that the Tech Channels don't, for the most part. The power should be in the hands of the consumer, not the massive mega corporation seeking to squeeze every dime, nickel, and penny out of it's customers at every opportunity it gets. ( Looking at you, 2080 TI and 3090 )

The Rabid Wolverine is now out of the bag, and there is no way that the revelation of that e-mail will not damage trust in ANY Of the reviewers moving forward, because now when anyone says anything glowing about DLSS, or Ray Tracing, etc....that will email will be dredged up and people will go " Hunh..."



I certainly don't think it's a good look for NVIDIA, but I still don't think that they should be obligated to continue supporting outlets when they don't feel that it benefits them to do so.
Linus is right that it does come across as oddly personal/vindictive, and he says that it's also not what he would expect from having dealt with that specific PR person before. So maybe there's something more to it.

Like I said higher above, some of the things we agree on.

However, Nvidia is absolutely in their right to do this. But we are also absolutely in our right, as are the various Tech Channels, to call them out on this behavior and drag them through the worst of the mud pits for this inexcusable behavior. Just because one may have a right, does not immunize one against the repercussions of their actions.
 
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tokkun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,440
Nv also doesn't pressure HWU into anything. They are free to continue with their editorial stance - just without the free review samples from NV now.

Nvidia is clearly offering a bribe. Be more positive about RTX and we'll send you hardware again. HWU chose to reject the bribe and publicize it. Who knows how many people Nvidia has threatened in this way who chose to accept the bribe?

That's why all consumers should be mad about this, regardless of their specific opinion of HWU. If you see these tactics being used so brazenly against big sites that can actually afford to push back, you'd have to be very naive to think the same thing wasn't happening to smaller media sites struggling to survive and to writers who can't afford to put ethics ahead of their salary.
 

dgrdsv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,028
Please post evidence of them saying "many bad things and some straight up incorrect and made up things".
Steve said that SAM is more exciting than RT in his 6800XT p/review.
They've said that Ampere RT isn't improved compared to Turing which is a pure lie.
They've said that Ampere has issues with scaling across resolutions while it's actually the opposite.
Should I go on? Their handling of this year GPU launches were pretty bad overall.

Eg direct video links of them saying or doing these things.
I'm sorry but I won't go looking for "direct links" in countless hours of video footage. I'm subscribed to their channel, watch most of their videos and know what I'm talking about. Feel free to do this yourself.

Are you actually for real? Did you read the email? The presumptuous bullying nature of it, essentially directly impacting their content and bottom line because they didn't comform to Nvidias exact PR preference.....If that isn't pressure from Nvidia, I don't know what is.
Yes, I am. Yes, I did. The email is clear: they won't be providing review samples due to HWU's editorial stance. If it will change they'll look into it again. I don't see any "pressure" here. Nobody is forcing them to change the stance, they are free to continue as they were.
And let me repeat for the third time that I think that this move is stupid on part of NV as it won't net them anything but this shit show above and around and more fuel for fanboy conspiracies. HWU will produce even worse videos and will still get the cards either from AIBs or by purchasing them on the market. This should've been handled differently.

Poor megacorp Nvidia! They're always so benevolent and sending out them free graphics cards with no ulterior intentions. Really, they just got taken advantage of by HU!
All manufacturers send free review samples and they all have "ulterior intentions" of getting a fair review for their product.
When they consider some review unfair they stop sending free samples to the outfit which made the review.
That's how it works.

Not that it is surprising you write all this nonsense but acting like the dynamics and power at play here from Nvidia boil down to that childish nonsense when you've probably written more than a thousand angry posts concerning graphics cards on this forum makes it all the more transparent. Time to ignore this fanboy drivel.
I won't even pretend that I understood this load of bull. Bye.

Nvidia is clearly offering a bribe. Be more positive about RTX and we'll send you hardware again.
That's your interpretation of their words. Another one is "stop ignoring RTX altogether and we'll send you h/w for reviews again". These two are significantly different, don't you think?
There is a lot of reviewers who aren't "positive" about RTX but they at least provide data to the viewers instead of dismissing it as "irrelevant" and completely ignoring it - and NV doesn't have issues with them.
So which of these two interpretations is the correct one here? I tend to think that its the second one as I've seen HWUs reviews and the only glaring difference with other reviews out there is the lack of data on RTX features and performance, not "being negative" about it. Many reviewers are negative about RTX features.