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Nov 2, 2017
2,239
I knew someone would mention "whataboutism"... That's just another word to hide from the truth that Naughty Dog did not get the same attention and hate towards their crunch as CDPR and Rockstar. Crunch is crunch and calling out one Dev so much compared to others clearly shows the favouritism that certain places have for certain Devs.

You realize the reason I'm calling that post out is because the old posts I was talking about before were "Why so much focus on Naughty Dog? There was so much less focus on Rockstar!"

And if you want to go back further? When RDR2 was getting crunch attention, there was a lot of people then going "People here just really hate Rockstar, Naughty Dog and CDPR don't get near as much shit as they're getting."

It's almost like this is a constant refrain when it comes to corporate bootlicking in order to suggest that people upset about abusive working conditions just irrationally have it out for a company.

(For what it's worth, the fanboyism around here for ND is hard to deny, I just don't think it's particularly less than the fanboyism for CDPR and isn't really a major factor in the depth of crunch discussions.)
 

Kyrona

Member
Jul 9, 2020
509
I've been lucky enough to have work I am passionate about and have made sacrifices to get it done.

I feel like a lot of you have never actually worked on something you are personally invested in. Which is fine - but as someone who has sacrificed as much as some game devs. I can safely say it was a very rewarding experience and something I felt lucky to be a part of.

If people want regular jobs that pay better. There are many other options. Nobody is working in this industry because they want the big bucks. If very talented, personally motivated staff want to work harder than others and in turn get paid more and realistically progress faster. Then I think that's fine. That's how things work in most industries. Also let's be real - it's no coincidence the best games largely come from companies that require crunch. Highly talented and motivated people who want perfection and are willing to sacrifice. That's the case across most creative industries btw guys. Top creatives sacrifice to get where they are. The videogames industry is a young persons game. If people keep pushing to clock in and out 9 to 5. Thats fine. But it won't work at the highest quality outputting companies and younger people who want it more and work harder will replace them.

Working in your dream industry isn't a right. And it is voluntary. No matter how many times people seem to say it isn't.

Get out of here with that gate keeping on passion, are you for real? Yes people will be passionate and work hard to make the product the best it can be, but there is no reason those employers can't work to protect the health and well being of the people willing to do so.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
31,978
maybe my understanding of crunch is a bit off.
I posted this up the page but here's an example of harsh crunch from a dev, posted in an earlier thread on crunch. It's not always this extreme, it can be a month or a few months of it, but you get the sense of why we're not just talking a small amount of overtime.
I worked on a AAA title scheduled for an autumn release, which then got delayed to a Christmas release.
Whole of the year leading up to release was "crunch".

1st quarter:
9 - 10 h, 5 days a week with occasional weekend overtime.

2nd quarter:
10h days, 6 days a week

3rd quarter:
12h days, 6 days a week and spurts of 7 days a week.

Last sprint:
12h days, 7 days a week and then time-off.

It is wildly different from studio to studio, though, and also depends on your role.

We did not know about these hours before going in by the way. Our crunch time was decided on a weekly basis.

Also, bonus at the end was not worth it :)
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
31,978
I feel like a lot of you have never actually worked on something you are personally invested in. Which is fine - but as someone who has sacrificed as much as some game devs. I can safely say it was a very rewarding experience and something I felt lucky to be a part of.
I've crunched on passion projects until I went into the ER. Don't speak as though people who are against crunch have no concept of working on projects they're passionate about. It's that passion and willingness to go further that's ripe for abuse resulting in the issues we see.
 

Deer

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,560
Sweden
Great thread and 100% co-signed.

And just no to the people(person?) saying you can't work on creative projects without crunch. It's just not true at all and is a bizarre statement that has nothing to with the thread tbh. Equating passion to being ok with a bad work environment is definitely a case of excusing the systemic issues. It's resignation and indicates a lack of passion for other people's well-being.
 

NoSmallWave

Member
Aug 17, 2020
38
First of all welfare/the government doing stuff isn't anti-capitilsm or socialism. The idea of a UBI was from a hard core capitalist. And as long as it's voluntary wanting to work more for more pay isn't bad either.

Yes, I am aware that government entitlements != socialism, I was being a bit pithy. The point is that there is no such thing as truly "voluntary" work in this context when there is an ever present economic gun to our heads. Sure, you don't have to do the overtime but if you don't you are threatened with death by poverty. That wouldn't be an issue with a socialist economy that does away with work-or-die hierarchical relationships.
 

Necromanti

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,546
And it's not just limited to creative stuff. I've done scientific research (my dream job) that required multiple 18 hour days. And how these experiments where there was no getting around it, better planning/more money/time wouldn't have cha need a thing. It sucked doing it but in the end I found my work fulfilling.
And this was in a government lab doing non commercial research. So the whole "workalike would be perfect if it was
I would have to strongly disagree for the majority of the time. With very specific exceptions, a lot of unreasonable working hour obligations--in my experience--could be traced back to a failure in management or poor experimental planning. But I can only speak for pre-clinical and clinical translational research.
 
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FaceHugger

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
13,949
USA
Yea OP, this applies to IT or tech as a whole. I've seen it first hand at a few companies. X amount of employees seem to have it good or not mind the abuse, while Y leave.

Also having worked as a developer and now in a more general IT role, crunch comes in all forms. If you've worked in the field I'm sure there have been times, regardless of your role, where you've worked several 60+ hour weeks straight because project X needed doing.
 

mentok15

Member
Dec 20, 2017
7,286
Australia
I posted this up the page but here's an example of harsh crunch from a dev, posted in an earlier thread on crunch. It's not always this extreme, it can be a month or a few months of it, but you get the sense of why we're not just talking a small amount of overtime.
Thanks for that. Yea it's a bit harsher than I originally thought.

Yes, I am aware that government entitlements != socialism, I was being a bit pithy. The point is that there is no such thing as truly "voluntary" work in this context when there is an ever present economic gun to our heads. Sure, you don't have to do the overtime but if you don't you are threatened with death by poverty. That wouldn't be an issue with a socialist economy that does away with work-or-die hierarchical relationships.
Like I said welfare would remove the economic gun to your head without doing away with capitalism. And I disagree about the socialist economy automatically doing away with it. Until we get to some 100% automation based economy people will still ned to work. Just for the basics food needs to be grown, water and plumbing needs to run, healthcare needs to operate. Even with Marx "From everyone according to their ability" shows you will still need to work.

Edit: It can be a bit annoying getting accused of being a laissez-faire capitalist just because I'm not a socialist. I'm centre-left! Capitalism with welfare seems to be the best system.

I would have to strongly disagree for the majority of the time. With very specific exceptions, a lot of unreasonable working hour obligations--in my experience--could be traced back to a failure in management or poor experimental planning. But I can only speak for pre-clinical and clinical translational research.
Oh yea majority of the time its not needed but it does come up. The work I was doing was for method development and validation with pretty tight deadlines (tight budget and there was some community effects). Basically half way through we had to hand a lot of what we where doing due to issues that would have been very hard to predict beforehand.
 
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Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
There is no point debating this further here. I've made my point and I stand by it.

I'm not disputing working conditions shouldn't be improved, you're making this about something else. I'm purely talking about crunch on games close to launch and the sacrifices people make to make the games we love great.

Also let's not pretend the games industry is one giant hellscape. Lots of people will and do attest to loving what they do and the environments they work in. Goodnight, I'm going to go chill now as your, frankly histrionic response has been a bit of a buzz kill. I may work stupid hours but I seem a lot happier and more capable of balance and reason than a lot of folk on the internet.

So, I worked myself to the bone until I got so stressed I had to be hospitalized. Tell me, does that make me lesser than you? Does that mean I "didn't work hard enough"? I worked as a paramedic and got so stressed in addition to the long hours and the difficultness of what I saw that I had to stop. Does that make me "weak" or "not loving what I did"? I am proud of my work as a paramedic but had to stop. Does that make me weak? This pisses me off so much. FUCK YOU! How DARE you imply that only those who enjoy their work work without complaint! How DARE you imply those who work normal jobs are inferior to those who work on passion projects! How DARE you pretend that people who want the right to work in a safe envorinment are "unbalanced"! WORKING UNTIL MY BONES BREAK CAUSE MY MENTAL INBALANCE, YOU COCKY BASTARD! AM I INFERIOR BECAUSE MY OWN GODDAMN BODY BROKE DOWN!?!
 

IronicSonic

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,639
Se this post I made:

The increased scope and work I did had nothing to do with capitalism. Any system can have it.
Would you consider your work as common? It's good you feel your work fulfilling but we better stop making our own experience as a rule for everyone
I think vocal customers not liking reduced scope is a bigger player than just saying capitalism.
I think the problem can be approached from different ways like a lot of things. Of course gamers are guilty too. I try to not fall in to that fomo bullshit myself. I succeed 80% of the time :P
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
I've crunched on passion projects until I went into the ER. Don't speak as though people who are against crunch have no concept of working on projects they're passionate about. It's that passion and willingness to go further that's ripe for abuse resulting in the issues we see.

Goddamn it, that poster pissed off so much it caused me a panic attack. I lost my mental stability due to overwork and I bet this bastard is going to look at this and laugh at me because I got too traumatized by it. I deal with hellish mental damage and this person is looking down at me as laughing at how inferior I am because I had the goddman weakness to be so traumatized by what I saw that I had to never touch medicine again. They are laughing at me because I am too weak. Goddamn it. Why am I weak. Why do these people go for "you're too mentally unbalanced because you don't work hard enough!?!"
 

NoSmallWave

Member
Aug 17, 2020
38
Like I said welfare would remove the economic gun to your head without doing away with capitalism. And I disagree about the socialist economy automatically doing away with it. Until we get to some 100% automation based economy people will still ned to work. Just for the basics food needs to be grown, water and plumbing needs to run, healthcare needs to operate. Even with Marx "From everyone according to their ability" shows you will still need to work.

Edit: It can be a bit annoying getting accused of being a laissez-faire capitalist just because I'm not a socialist. I'm centre-left! Capitalism with welfare seems to be the best system.

Well, I would say that I think you have some fundamental misunderstandings of what socialism and capitalism are, and there are huge problems baked into capitalism that can't be alleviated by a welfare system. This really isn't the thread for me to start waving my poorly xeroxed copies of the Socialist Worker around but I would urge you to maybe take another look at some basic assumptions of what these systems are and what they are not.
 

Kyrona

Member
Jul 9, 2020
509
I may work stupid hours but I seem a lot happier and more capable of balance and reason than a lot of folk on the internet.

Your arguments have been undercut every time because you try to frame them as "It seems like I am so much more passionate and fulfilled than everyone else". I know it isn't necessarily intentional, but the framing makes it seem as though you are belittling others by speaking like that.
 

mugurumakensei

Elizabeth, I’m coming to join you!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,320
It doesn't matter what the stack is, available tool chain, industry or era. The idea of throwing more people at the problem rarely results in a positive change (unless the team was severely understaffed to begin with).

this is correct. Tossing more people at the problem can often result in more crunch especially if added in later stages post some unseen issue causing a delay. new person has to be onboarded somehow so both the person and whoever is mentoring will have to crunch. The other person will also have to be handling their existing workload.
 

Zonal Hertz

Banned
Jun 13, 2018
1,079
So, I worked myself to the bone until I got so stressed I had to be hospitalized. Tell me, does that make me lesser than you? Does that mean I "didn't work hard enough"? I worked as a paramedic and got so stressed in addition to the long hours and the difficultness of what I saw that I had to stop. Does that make me "weak" or "not loving what I did"? I am proud of my work as a paramedic but had to stop. Does that make me weak? This pisses me off so much. FUCK YOU! How DARE you imply that only those who enjoy their work work without complaint! How DARE you imply those who work normal jobs are inferior to those who work on passion projects! How DARE you pretend that people who want the right to work in a safe envorinment are "unbalanced"! WORKING UNTIL MY BONES BREAK CAUSE MY MENTAL INBALANCE, YOU COCKY BASTARD! AM I INFERIOR BECAUSE MY OWN GODDAMN BODY BROKE DOWN!?!

What on earth is this post? I'm talking about optional crunch near the end of a game cycle not really being something that should completely not exist. And that if we lived in a world where there was a policy of a hard cap on hours to work each month per member of staff, you'd see frustrated employees and much worse output. All I'm saying is crunch is not an objectively bad thing and people who want to sacrifice their work/life balance to do something they take pride in is not objectively a bad thing solely viewed as a completely awful thing done by demonic studios who are imprisoning their staff. Again - this isn't compulsory overtime.

Also absolutely not saying people who work normal jobs are inferior. I'm saying if you're working on something you're passionate about you're more likely to willingly go the extra mile. So please stop projecting onto what I've said with whatever is going on with you. But if we are talking about unbalanced people who can't seem to be rational at all around the topic of overtime - I think I'm replying to one right now. Also I didn't say anyone was weak. I'm saying if you aren't happy, do something else - which is exactly what you did! So good on you. I hope you're doing much better now and that you're little rant at me has made yourself feel good.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
First of all welfare/the government doing stuff isn't anti-capitilsm or socialism. The idea of a UBI was from a hard core capitalist. And as long as it's voluntary wanting to work more for more pay isn't bad either.



maybe my understanding of crunch is a bit off.
I think it is yeah, but props for at least listening instead of doubling down. Crunch is sustained periods of prolonged overtime, usually 60-80 hour weeks for months at a time. Game developers tells stories of literally sleeping under their desks.

Like in the most recent instance of crunch (Cyberpunk 2077), a lead developer sent an email to all employees expressing sympathy for the burden to the families of developers, I mean it doesn't get more clear than that
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
User Banned (1 Month): Lashing out at other members in an unacceptable manner across multiple threads; prior history of similar behavior.
What on earth is this post? I'm talking about optional crunch near the end of a game cycle not really being something that should completely not exist. And that if we lived in a world where there was a policy of a hard cap on hours to work each month per member of staff, you'd see frustrated employees and much worse output. All I'm saying is crunch is not an objectively bad thing and people who want to sacrifice their work/life balance to do something they take pride in is not objectively a bad thing solely viewed as a completely awful thing done by demonic studios who are imprisoning their staff. Again - this isn't compulsory overtime.

Also absolutely not saying people who work normal jobs are inferior. I'm saying if you're working on something you're passionate about you're more likely to willingly go the extra mile. So please stop projecting onto what I've said with whatever is going on with you. But if we are talking about unbalanced people who can't seem to be rational at all around the topic of overtime - I think I'm replying to one right now. Also I didn't say anyone was weak. I'm saying if you aren't happy, do something else - which is exactly what you did! So good on you. I hope you're doing much better now and that you're little rant at me has made yourself feel good.

I ENJOYED MEDICINE! IT WAS MY PASSION! I HAD TO QUIT BECAUSE ME FOLLOWING THAT PASSION TO THE GODDAMN LETTER MADE ME A NERVOUS WRECK! I AM STILL A NERVOUS WRECK WITH LOADS OF MENTAL ISSUES YEARS LATER BECAUSE I DID YOUR GODDAMN ADVICE! THAT IS WHY YOU PISSED ME OFF SO MUCH! OF COURSE I'M FUCKING UNBALANCED!!!! WORKING PASSIONATELY KILLED MY MENTAL STABLITY! AND HERE YOU ARE KEEP ON ACTING LIKE YOU'RE BETTER THAN ME BECAUSE I HAD THE GALL TO WORK UNTIL I WAS PHYSICALLY MENTALLY SO BROKEN IT TOOK YEARS TO EVEN ACT SOME SAMBLANCE OF NORMAL! SO FUCK YOU FOR DARING TO IMPLY THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE PASSIONATE DON'T NEED THINGS LIKE PROPER WORK HOURS BECAUSE THEIR PASSION CAN SUSTAIN THEM! I NEARLY LOSS MY LIFE DOING THAT SO DON'T YOU DARE TRY AND MAKE IT TO BE THIS GODDAMN IDEAL!
 

Glio

Member
Oct 27, 2017
24,497
Spain
There are a huge number of people being exploited who are not aware that they are being exploited. They just assume that is normal.
 

PapaDev

Member
Oct 26, 2017
574
As someone working in the game industry, I can tell you flat out that the bigger the company, the less they give a f*ck about you.

They'll manipulate, lie and take advantage of you, while also promising you a bonus if the game sells well. The issue is that they won't tell you what requirements are needed to receive the bonus.

Also, you're surrounded by "old timers" that have been going up the ranks and try to sell you on the idea that "it's worst elsewhere, you won't find a better job, even if you leave, you'll come back. Also, stop bitching."

Also, leads and HR are not here to help you out. They're here to protect the project.

I will never let my children enter that industry.
 

ItIsOkBro

Happy New Year!!
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
9,476
Hearing the "I want/like to crunch" arguments from other devs is just...This issue sucks because generally I'm on the side of the developer but all these devs passionately crunching away for the man are part of the problem. I'm passionate too...for 35 hours/week.

Basically this tweet in that chain is how I feel:

 

Zonal Hertz

Banned
Jun 13, 2018
1,079
I ENJOYED MEDICINE! IT WAS MY PASSION! I HAD TO QUIT BECAUSE ME FOLLOWING THAT PASSION TO THE GODDAMN LETTER MADE ME A NERVOUS WRECK! I AM STILL A NERVOUS WRECK WITH LOADS OF MENTAL ISSUES YEARS LATER BECAUSE I DID YOUR GODDAMN ADVICE! THAT IS WHY YOU PISSED ME OFF SO MUCH! OF COURSE I'M FUCKING UNBALANCED!!!! WORKING PASSIONATELY KILLED MY MENTAL STABLITY! AND HERE YOU ARE KEEP ON ACTING LIKE YOU'RE BETTER THAN ME BECAUSE I HAD THE GALL TO WORK UNTIL I WAS PHYSICALLY MENTALLY SO BROKEN IT TOOK YEARS TO EVEN ACT SOME SAMBLANCE OF NORMAL! SO FUCK YOU FOR DARING TO IMPLY THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE PASSIONATE DON'T NEED THINGS LIKE PROPER WORK HOURS BECAUSE THEIR PASSION CAN SUSTAIN THEM! I NEARLY LOSS MY LIFE DOING THAT SO DON'T YOU DARE TRY AND MAKE IT TO BE THIS GODDAMN IDEAL!

So you think all working hours should be heavily regulated to the point overtime cannot be sanctioned to complete projects?

I'm trying to talk rationally about crunching near the end of game cycles and the general themes of passion resulting in working more to complete a goal you're proud of.

I'm not saying passionate people should be taken advantage of or pushed beyond their limits. I think it's wildly inappropriate how personally you've taken that stance and I hope you get the help you need. Take care of yourself please.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
31,978
I think it's wildly inappropriate how personally you've taken that stance
This was an incredibly condescending point to throw out there.
I feel like a lot of you have never actually worked on something you are personally invested in. Which is fine - but as someone who has sacrificed as much as some game devs. I can safely say it was a very rewarding experience and something I felt lucky to be a part of.
 

psionotic

Member
May 29, 2019
2,085
If you can't pay your employees a living wage and treat them with respect maybe you shouldn't be in business.
 

Zonal Hertz

Banned
Jun 13, 2018
1,079
This was an incredibly condescending point to throw out there.

All I was trying to point out was that this isn't an objectively bad thing for everyone. There are plenty of people just saying "ANYONE WHO SAYS OTHERWISE IS A BOOTLICKER PLEASE IGNORE THEM". So I tried to get my point across. I didn't mean it as a personal affront. Just my own perspective. I won't press further anyway. I just don't think this topic is as black and white as people like to make it.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,283
SoCal
Hearing the "I want/like to crunch" arguments from other devs is just...This issue sucks because generally I'm on the side of the developer but all these devs passionately crunching away for the man are part of the problem. I'm passionate too...for 35 hours/week.

Basically this tweet in that chain is how I feel:


This is so true. You can't really stop someone with extreme passion from giving their all on their own projects, but when they're working in a larger company with a manager or lead, it should be their job to protect their subordinates from themselves so that they do not overwork themselves or burn out. The industry would benefit immensely in the long term if people didn't flee from the industry like they do now.
 

lusca_bueno

Member
Nov 23, 2017
1,472
The problem about this whole thing is that workers far too often think like CEOs do, but they're no CEOs nor have the benefits of being one, they're workers that don't know how to articulate their voices in favor of their most basic and fundamental needs.

Not only that, there's a rising culture about feeling entitled to a "job well done" sparing the company, but not its work force, talking about "deadlines" as if that's a natural force and not a cultural imposition that benefits higher ups alone.

I can understand people feeling passionate about something, but we're talking about a survival structure, and a culture that forces everyone to take the same stance in spite of how passionate they are about their jobs in order to survive.

If you like working more than you need to, sure, work on personal projects, but don't argue fueling an exploratory culture that has very little interest in reflecting on our well being as workers, that are robbed of whatever we produce and paid a small quantity of its actual value.

We all have pride in our creations, but we can't compromise people's mental health and dignity because of something small like it. That much should be obvious but some people really don't have a clue.
 
Nov 2, 2017
2,239
I'm not saying passionate people should be taken advantage of or pushed beyond their limits. I think it's wildly inappropriate how personally you've taken that stance and I hope you get the help you need. Take care of yourself please.

You absolutely are saying the bolded. The entire thing you're describing is "well, some people like being taken advantage of".

A job is not your life and should never be your life. And when someone starts thinking that, hey, I can do this and it's good for me, they're getting into this territory:



There's no taking overwork in isolation because nothing about this system isolates the overwork. If one person starts overworking and it's not actively discouraged, they start to become the barometer by which their co-workers are judged by management and by which their co-workers judge themselves.

An actual healthy working environment would see someone regularly putting in 60 hour weeks and regard that as a problem that requires a conversation to reduce their hours. A healthy working environment means that a boss who sees an employee who beat them in in the morning that's still working when they go to leave will tell them to shut it down and go home. The problem is that capitalism discourages those sorts of healthy working environments because they're less profitable (read: exploitable).
 
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NoSmallWave

Member
Aug 17, 2020
38
So you think all working hours should be heavily regulated to the point overtime cannot be sanctioned to complete projects?

I can't speak for them, but I pretty much do. You yourself described the mechanism by which even voluntary overtime is actually de facto mandatory by saying that if you don't do it, you'll be replaced by someone who will. That's almost literally extortion. I'm not gonna say a universal ban on anything more than 8hrs a day should be implemented in all industries but there absolutely needs to be heavy regulation around this sort of thing or people will be exploited, 100%. I've spent a lot of time in crunch culture and I know how it works - its not a screaming boss openly threatening you, its snide jokes and competitive banter and mysterious layoffs during busy seasons. I can't even tell you how many people I talk to that brag about the number of hours they work in a week and "hitting OT by 10am Thursday morning!" These are people in strong unions, btw. Its insane and it needs to stop.
 

MrMysterio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
701
Thanks for cross-quoting my post Kyuuji - I can give a bit more context here for those who think they still need to defend crunch "rationally". Heart goes out to Xaszatm too.
These kind of crunch situations inflict trauma. When that trauma meets ignorance then we're in trouble.

Hope we can see those who have obviously lived through the trauma of crunch-culture to have a voice in this thread again soon.

Back to the REALITY of crunch (devs and QA testers, please add to this from your experience. This was mine):

Love and Pride go to die in Crunch

During crunch you will start to hate your work. Your love for the "product" will die. I am being very general here, because I am confident that if you look at the work that typically falls into crunch-time is this: fixing bugs.

What does bug fixing entail?
- Finding bugs (QA testers creating these reports for devs to address them)
- Fixing bugs
- Retesting
- Hoping it worked

If we assume a year of crunch for a typical open-world AAA game, you will fix three classes of bugs.

Class A: Game breaking (i.e. hard crashes)
Class B: Progress halting (i.e. user has to restart to progress and similar)
Class C: Cosmetic (i.e. missing textures, etc)

There is of course overlap - like missing collision (meaning player can walk through walls, which might be Class C or can be upped to B as well).

All classes of bugs will be worked on within the first 3 quarters. C-class bugs fall away eventually, leaving time to focus down on Class-A and B.

IMPORTANT:
The aim here is usually not to create something you're "proud" of, but to pass Sony's, Microsoft's QA tests, so they give the green light to publish. If there's still a class A bug somewhere obvious, your game will not be released - a day 1 patch can salvage that situation, though nowadays.
Back when I was still working in the industry, most copies were physical and an internet connection wasn't taken as a given.

All we dreamed of was passing Sony's & Microsoft's scrutiny to give the green light. If their QA team fails the build due to a bug that was your responsibility - well, HAVE FUN WITH THAT FEELING.

---

Real World example of a bug fixing process from the Witcher 3 (found on Kotaku):

Problem
CD Projekt Red realized that something was horribly wrong: They could walk into any house in the game—even the ones that were meant to be part of the scenery.

Source
The Witcher 3 was supposed to lock all of the doors for the duration of the quest, and then, once the quest was over, unlock those doors once again. Problem was, as Miles Tost recalled, the game had no way of knowing which doors had been open before the quest and which ones had been locked. So it would just open everything.

Fix
Tost said. "And I remember the solution for this was quite bitter—the quest designer had to actually go through every single door in the game and add this tag. 'This is a door that was closed before, and it should be closed again after.'"

So, the thing you are supposed to LOVE and feel PRIDE in demands you to sit 12 hours + in front of and do stuff like:
- Adding Tags to Game Objects
- Moving Collision Boxes of Game Objects
- Aligning UV maps
- Touch up textures
- Fix character rigs
- Amend geometry (and re-do UV maps)
- Fix LOD objects

Those tasks come out of a database by the way, filled up daily by overworked QA testers, who start hating you for dismissing bugs you can't simply be bothered with, or a QA tester is at the end of a 12 hour minimum-wage, no-bonus shift of checking the fucking collision of doors, or alignment of textures and can't for the life of them write a report that makes any kind of sense.
--> SET TO FIXED (and hope it doesn't come back)

Also the fun of fixing strings is a delight every kid dreams of when wanting to go into game development. So much pride in opening up that CSV file and fixing a typo. DREAM BIG, KIDS.

Add to this the pressures of non-crunch life. Are you a woman / queer / black / neuro-divergent? Being that makes CRUNCH so much more fun, as the game industry is a wonderfully progressive place for sexual harassers, racists and bigots. And they love punching down.

Also, do you have a family that actually dares to depend on you for a couple of hours of their lives? Well, fuck you. Don't you love the product? Don't you take pride in moving those collision boxes on the Y-axis?
The love felt when arguing with a QA tester whether a game object's broken geometry is "as designed" or not, just for the heck of it. LOVELY.

Just to say it again: crunch is not a creative process. It is dedicated to making your game passable as a sell-able product with pressure from the company to make it work... or else!
Oh oh oh, if you cannot make it work, think of the stock prices! Also, there's always that big publisher who might just buy us... and then what? More crunch! No more free pizzas for those 12 hour shifts!

And lastly:
Yes, there are people who love everything I have listed above. And that's fair. I appreciate well-kept spreadsheets like any other German would. The people that I know who love that type of stuff usually really don't care for the product. They just love game engines and moving things about incrementally and can do that non-stop. Some of them don't even play games. Some do, but only Eve online.
What I am saying is: There is no specific company-boy / girl who thrives in crunch just because "it's what needs to be done". They are also specific people with specific circumstances.

Okay, that's me for the day talking about crunch.

Unionise, people. Solidarity in suffering to push back.
 

etrain911

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,807
There's a saying that socialism in America never took root because the proletariat doesn't see themselves as exploited but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires. We need unions, this kind of overtime needs to be optional.
 

Deleted member 13560

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Oct 27, 2017
3,087
In my previous job, myself and 2 other coworkers were the most skilled out of the 25 of us that were assigned to the team. We were always asked to stay late and made to fix the problems that other people on the team couldn't solve or created. The bad part about that was the people we were helping would instead go off to do other things or slack off instead of staying with us to learn how to fix the problem.

We also had to stay during weekends as well. We were on contracts, but were paid salary and didn't get paid overtime. We were always so angry and frustrated with other people on the team. Especially when they commented about how easy they had it and how nice the hours were for the job right in front of the 3 of us. We eventually brought it up to our team leads that if these people didn't take the time to learn then we would not raise a finger to help them when asked and worry about our own work load.

We hated crunch and hated it even more that other people benefited from us getting beaten like rented mules. This all stemmed from supervisors with poor talent/time/project management and co-workers who just didn't care about their quality of work. If we were compensated for our time accordingly then maybe we wouldn't have been so salty, but we weren't. We got paid just as much as the group that worked for 8 hours and left.

But this topic reminded me of how people that worked on the same team as we did loved it there, but we hated it. It's so easy to find people who will genuinely say that they love their work environment when it comes at the cost of other people's mental/physical/social health. All three of us left within 4 months of each other to companies that had better work conditions and appreciated their skilled laborers quite a bit more.

With that said, there was one operations lead that fought tooth and nail for us and they will always have my undying respect. Luckily they're out of that situation as well.

***This was outside of the gaming industry***
 

Deleted member 64666

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Mar 20, 2020
1,051
As a person who had to go through harrassment at work, in a different industry, I believe that indeed, your colleagues should care about what you have to say when you go through the painful process of having to make a formal complaint to your HR.

In my case, I deposited a complaint on the Vice-president of a company who was so hateful, unprofessional and was making personal digs to me in front of everyone, and I got fired for it. I was paid a very small severance and I wasn't in a position to refuse it. To this day, I'm still mad at how I had no options, and how certain of my colleagues, just lined up with the Vice-President although they had witnessed all the abuse.
 
I had a guy in a ND thread tell me crunching is just the way the "real world" works and people complaining about it must be young people who haven't worked "real" jobs.
I remember when I was younger and wanted all the over time I could take. Now I'm older and realize that this work is always going to be here. I have a limited time on this planet and I damn sure don't want to spend it on this. I rather see and love my family. Capitalism has ruined so many things.
 

Deleted member 73264

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Jun 28, 2020
201
No it isn't. There are way less jobs in the games industry than there are talent who want them. It's a priviledge to work for something you're passionate about but the downside is there are tonnes of people just as talented as you who will take your job and work twice as hard if you're not willing to step up when asked. That's just how things are and will continue to be. If you're older and don't want to work as hard and want more of a life outside of your passion. Either work that out with your employer, or work in a normal industry that pays better and is half as competitive. Just don't start crying when your work is less fullfulling - because guess what? That's why it's paid better.



Also there will still be people who actually want to go the extra mile to make it better and take pride in their work.

Pride and dedication I think are things a lot of people these days seem to see as a negative quality. All I know is most of my favourite art I consume (not talking just games media here - but movies, novels etc) wouldn't exist if everyone had the same kind of "I know my rights I'm not working a second more than my contract even if you pay me" mentality.

There's a reason people like Jim Sterling aren't creative directors (ignoring talent requirements).

I don't even know where to start with this absolute fucking stupidity. I've been a professional in the game industry for 14 years - everything you just said is nonsense.

On second thought, maybe it's better not to start at all. Life itself will knock some sense into you, kid.
 
Dec 31, 2017
1,430
I think it is yeah, but props for at least listening instead of doubling down. Crunch is sustained periods of prolonged overtime, usually 60-80 hour weeks for months at a time. Game developers tells stories of literally sleeping under their desks.

Like in the most recent instance of crunch (Cyberpunk 2077), a lead developer sent an email to all employees expressing sympathy for the burden to the families of developers, I mean it doesn't get more clear than that
I have several friends working in video games in Montreal, I was told they actually can't do that anymore because of insurance or something like that, don't know if there is any truth to it.
 

Praglik

Member
Nov 3, 2017
402
SH
This is so true. You can't really stop someone with extreme passion from giving their all on their own projects, but when they're working in a larger company with a manager or lead, it should be their job to protect their subordinates from themselves so that they do not overwork themselves or burn out. The industry would benefit immensely in the long term if people didn't flee from the industry like they do now.

Very true. I've been a lead artist and art director in the game industry for 5 years now, and the best managers are the ones that protect their teams.
Yes, people are passionate BUT they won't be passionate for long if you send them in burnout. Or they quit and go to the competition - so now all this time you spent to train them is benefiting a competing product. Managers who don't see that are blinded by their own corporate bullshit.

CD Projekt is going to lose a ton of talented employees in the next few months, I can guarantee you that. Just keep an eye on Artstation and LinkedIn.
 

ridaxan

Member
Oct 29, 2017
239
Cape Town, South Africa
I'm not in gamedev, but I'm in software development. We crunch every couple of months or so (depending on the project, speed to market, etc). I've always been well rewarded. I can't speak for others, but it's not a problem for me. I believe in pouring everything in to creating a good product that I can be proud of. My friends and extended family find it strange, but I guess the concept of taking this level of pride in one's work is not the standard for everyone.

On the gamedev side though, I believe it's a very complex issue. A business contract is between the employee and the employer. Just because a person is "happy" doesn't invalidate the experience of those who aren't. Just because a person feels "exploited" doesn't invalidate experience of those who don't. It's unfortunately not a "one-size-fits-all" kinda situation. This is also a highly competitive industry with traditionally high paying salaries due to the high skillsets required. It is not a case where minimum wage earners are exploited and don't have any other options aside from "eating it" or don't have an income. It's a complex issue with no "quick fix".
 

justiceiro

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
6,664
So as long as you like the games you don't care.
I never said that. I never bougth a crp game in my life, and never played one for more than half a hour. I don't believe just talking about issues publicaly is always a way to solve the problem. If you want to believe that you saying that you dislike this in this website, you are doing something about, go for it. I don't.