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Hank Azaria wants to apologize to 'every Indian person in this country' for Apu from The Simpsons
- Thread starter WrenchNinja
- Start date
He might not have received the message.
The Simpsons: Matt Groening 'proud' of Apu and making 'ambitious' plans
There are "ambitious" plans for the Indian character, despite controversy in recent years.
www.bbc.com
He seems like a good guy. I will say I always liked the Apu character growing up but I cannot speak for Indian people and how they perceived it, and if it caused offense its a shame it took so long to change. I think the best thing the Simpsons could do is a time skip where the characters age and all the relics of era it was created in are forgotten.
These are obtuse responses. Indian-American kids like me got bullied and had Apu thrown in our faces. It sucks having to explain to people that I don't worship cows.
Not all the stereotypes effected people in the same way. It has nothing to do with Americentrism. If those Scottish stereotypes had adverse effects in other countries then we can talk about that. However, you can't use those other stereotypes in the show to whataboutism criticism about how Indian-American stereotypes effect Indian-Americans away. That's something I've noticed people trying to do to dismiss criticisms of the show.
The responses you quoted weren't being dismissive. They were criticism of a real thing and then you come and try to handwave it away too. I understand that you and countless of others have been through a lot because of stereotypical depictions like Apu in the show. But it doesn't make the pain felt by others any lesser. I agree with the criticism of the show, not dismissing it. And I'm not saying that this is necessarily the thread to talk about other stereotypes in Simpsons or media overall. Yet that doesn't mean I wouldn't call out problematic views that are presented in the thread, it shouldn't go unchallenged. I didn't respond to the person who brought up Willie, that wasn't the discussion I wanted to have in this thread. But the rather direct implication that global media should be viewed just through US lens, is definitely Americentrism. Americentrism and American exceptionalism are both issues. Not the discussion to have on this thread, but I feel I had to respond again because of the continuous dismissal of it. It's larger issue than just Simpsons and the Scottish and my comments weren't even about either of those. I wasn't trying to focus the discussion to other stereotypical depictions, I directly adressed people posting something questionable in this very thread.
If people just went "yeah that's bad too" or "not the thread for it" and continued with the topic (or just didn't reply to that at all), that would be better than dismissing it as not an issue because it's not perceived in the US. There's several responses one can make to something that they feel is a derail of the topic, which doesn't include the erasure of pain felt by ethnic groups around the world.
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The Apu character was a blatant slur, and no doubt was the cause of so much racism and hurt. Im so sorry that you got bullied in school - the show has a lot to answer for.
However, my response was to a post that really dismissed the Anti-Scottish aspect of the show.
Olubode said " Why would I consider "anti-Scottish racism/violence in America" as something to think about? "
I and other posters were pointing out that actually, the show is global. And the horrible racism you endured at school was mirrored by Scottish children. We shouldn't just be talking about the APU character, but Groundskeeper WIlly also.
I and the other forum member who posted such, were not partaking in "whataboutism", it's VERY clear that we are not dismissing criticisms but adding to the valid criticisms of the show and responding to a forum members opinon.
The Apu character was a racist slur
The Willy character was a racist slur.
But I concede that they deserve separate threads.
Listening to him now I've got to believe he went into it with "good" intentions of creating a beloved character, and never intended to be mean-spirited. But he wasn't the person to do that. And while it took him years and loads of external pressure, I'm glad he realises that now.
This is why non-white posters get tired...
I'll assume you two aren't just trying to be funny but I'm also not patient enough to humor this line of thought in this thread.
I guarantee I'm not trying to be funny, quite the contrary I'm getting just angrier.
Can you give some examples of systemic, global racism against Scottish people? Compared to Indian people in the diaspora (and within India too honestly) who experience systemic racism and feel the brunt of white supremacy globally, I don't think you can really equivocate between the two.
Is there a history of mistreatment of Scottish people in the UK? Absolutely. Does that manifest outwardly into systemic violence and racism, on a global scale comparable to how Indian and other decidedly non-white groups experience violence and racism? I don't think the evidence favors that. It's a very specific strain of history within the UK, that should be addressed, but when you look at it globally, Scottish people are generally welcomed into whiteness, and that simply means the dynamics of racism at play here are not equivalent. (Similarly, Willie just isn't seen as representative of his race as Apu is by white audiences; how many stories are there of Scottish people being called Groundskeeper Willie mockingly?)
Didn't Hank Azaria refuse to even speak to the documentary guy?
Honestly its a little late to be apologising.
Honestly its a little late to be apologising.
There's no need to start "opression olympics". You clearly are already aware of the issues of discrimination and mockery of the Scottish. If it's more or less than some other group, isn't at all relevant. And being "white passing" is something that wildly also differs from country to country. Often racism has nothing to do with skin color at all, it's aimed at ethnicity or religion. You wouldn't say to a white Jewish person "what you're complaining about, youre' white" (I hope). In my country, there isn't really much towards Scottish fortunately. Yet there's a lot of russophobia, anti-slavic racism, racism towards Finnish Kale (Romani), racism towards the indigenous Sami people. And of course racism towards anyone who is black or brown and especially Somalian. Somali has turned into a slur here when coming from the lips of racist white people, there isn't even separate slur needed anymore. You can call anyone a Somali with certain tone and they know you're being insulting and discriminatory. To you these people are probably white, but to a Finn they are "mustalainen". Musta means black. It sickens me how often racism gets dismissed and downplayed here, if the victim isn't dark enough.
I really don't want to get into an argument which is worse Apu or Willie, because that's not what I was challenging. I was challenging the notion that "not in the US, so not a problem". But sure Apu has been more harmful in larger scale than Willie. But I'm not here to discuss Willie.
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Okay so as a Scottish person I haven't found Willie offensive. But I grew up in Scotland. Maybe if I was Scottish but grew up outside Scotland it'd be different (assuming I spent my day being talked to by people mocking Willie)
But Scottish people are well represented in mainstream media by some great actors such as Sean Connery, Ewan McGregor, Billy Connelly and McAvoy.
We have our positive representation. For people of Indian (and generally that part of the world) they have one guy. His name is Apu and that is what the vast majority of Americans will think about when they meet someone from India.
I think that is the issue for many.
But Scottish people are well represented in mainstream media by some great actors such as Sean Connery, Ewan McGregor, Billy Connelly and McAvoy.
We have our positive representation. For people of Indian (and generally that part of the world) they have one guy. His name is Apu and that is what the vast majority of Americans will think about when they meet someone from India.
I think that is the issue for many.
nah
Growing up in the 90's on the other side of the world, kids would walk into cornershops shouting "hello apu bud bud ding ding thank you come again" all the time.
Like it or not, this shit has real ramifications all over the world.
Are people seriously arguing the supposed anti Scottish portrayed in Willie is anything near the scale of racism and stereotyping towards Indians portrayed by Apu and Indian culture over the years?
There's no need to start "opression olympics". You clearly are already aware of the issues of discrimination and mockery of the Scottish. If it's more or less than some other group, isn't at all relevant. And being "white passing" is something that wildly also differs from country to country. Often racism has nothing to do with skin color at all, it's aimed at ethnicity or religion. You wouldn't say to a Jewish person "what you're complaining about, youre' white" (I hope). In my country, there isn't really much towards Scottish fortunately. Yet there's a lot of russophobia, anti-slavic racism, racism towards Finnish Kale (Romani), racism towards the indigenous Sami people. And of course racism towards anyone who is black or brown and especially Somalian. Somali has turned into a slur here when coming from the lips of white people, there isn't even separate slur needed anymore. To you these people are probably white, but to a Finn they are "mustalainen". Musta means black.
I really don't want to get into an argument which is worse Apu or Willie, because that's not what I was challenging. I was challenging the notion that "not in the US, so not a problem". But sure Apu has been more harmful in larger scale than Willie. But I'm not here to discuss Willie.
I'm Jewish. Not all Jewish people are white or white-passing, just FYI.
There's definitely specific racisms against some "white" groups depending on country and context, and none of those are okay (keeping in mind that the concept of whiteness is a moving target and will be morphed by various factors). But it's just a different scope when you're talking about groups that suffer under global white supremacy, and that will affect how people talk about the issues. That's all I was getting at. So fair enough.
Thread about Hank Azaria and the Apu question/racism against Indian people.
Devolves into:
"But what about other stereotypes in the show?"
Devolves into:
"But what about other stereotypes in the show?"
And almost none of them were banned in that thread. It's like that thread was just foreshadowing.
Well of course not they're all white, but even white Jewish people suffer from antisemitism. That was the point. And I never claimed that the portrayal of Willie would had caused as much pain in as large scale as Apu. Probably not considering how many Indian people there are compared and how the stereotype of Apu keeps repeated in several other media. That wasn't the point either. It's frustrating when I try to be specific and clear as possible about things, yet it feels that some are even intentionally trying to read something else from what I've said. Like as if I was implying that all Jewish people are white or that I'm equating Apu and Willie. When I didn't originally mention either in my post, but directly responded to something said in this thread that is problematic. I've tried very hard to put emphasis on what the issue was with the posts. But I edited in my post now, that I mean white Jewish person. I thought the implication was already there in that sentence. There are blind spots on this forum, it atleast comes up in discussions of racism (or ethnic discrimination if you want), fat-shaming, child abuse and ableism. Some shit just doesn't get called out like it should or is even directly dismissed.
Hopefully I've made myself clear now, so we don't need to drag this discussion in this thread any further. And obviously the harm caused by Apu has been felt globally by Indian people. It's the most popular animated series in the world. So why frame it just around the US to begin with. You can bet it's not only Indian-Americans who have suffered from it.
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Yeah, it's like fucking clockwork: any thread about the shit that non-White people go through will eventually have a White person pipe up, "WhItE pEoPlE hAvE sUfFeRrEd ToO!"
Tonedeaf AF.
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As a white person, I agree. There's certainly room for discussion on the many forms of prejudice that infect our society, but we need to learn when and how to bring things up.
I think you should compare Indian representation to Scottish across the the board if you wanna make the comparison.
Out of curiosity, are any of the people bringing up Groundskeeper Willie Scottish?
I mean, for starters lets just ignore the complete misuse of the word "Racism" in regards to Scottish stereotypes. Although I get it was being used specifically to try and elevate those issues to similar levels as the racism around Apu.
I also can't find any real evidence of places in the world that Groundskeeper Willy has been used as "a racist slur" so I'd love to see some evidence to back up your point here. This point in particular:
The overall thing you're doing here though, being dismissive of racism against Indians (and lets face it, anyone from similar parts of the world that dumb racists lump in together,) is pretty horrific though and I hope you take a few steps back and really think about why you felt the need to step in and go "but what about these white people."
I mean, for starters lets just ignore the complete misuse of the word "Racism" in regards to Scottish stereotypes. Although I get it was being used specifically to try and elevate those issues to similar levels as the racism around Apu.
There's not really a thread to be had on the Groundskeeper Willy thing, because it's largely not a thing. It's something non-Scottish people use to be dismissive of the Apu issue, whereas Scottish people largely find Groundskeeper Willy a funny character that plays on harmless stereotypes. Unlike Apu.
I also can't find any real evidence of places in the world that Groundskeeper Willy has been used as "a racist slur" so I'd love to see some evidence to back up your point here. This point in particular:
Could you link to some stories on this? I can't seem to find any in a cursory search.
The overall thing you're doing here though, being dismissive of racism against Indians (and lets face it, anyone from similar parts of the world that dumb racists lump in together,) is pretty horrific though and I hope you take a few steps back and really think about why you felt the need to step in and go "but what about these white people."
Throughout this 5+ year saga Hank has arguably acquitted himself far better than anyone else has on this issue.
Frankly, he's the reason why Apu is no longer being characterized in the offensive manner that he was for the first 27 seasons of the show that clearly offended and hurt a great many people. He's also the reason why the show finally took steps to recast ALL of their non-white characters and broadening out to a more diverse voice actor pool. They would not have taken these steps had Azaria not forced the issue and it was Kondabolu's documentary that got the ball rolling on this.
And when I say better than anyone else, I mean better than anyone else. That goes for Kondabolu himself. That certainly goes for the Simpsons' producers and creative talent. And that most assuredly goes for the show's fans online.
Stay on topic
Official Staff Communication
This is a thread about Indian stereotypes in The Simpsons, the character/caricature of Apu, and Hank Azaria's comments. It's not a thread for whataboutisms and arguments about other stereotypes. Stay on topic. Further derailment will be moderated.
I listened to the entire interview on my drive the other day, and he really seems genuinely upset with himself and wants to try to make things right. I mean, the guy took almost *two years* before he came out and said anything because he was spending that time listening and learning and speaking with people who found it hurtful. He even admitted at first that his initial reaction was to get defensive and be like "Where does it stop?!" before realizing how dumb of a rebuttal that was. It really is a good listen, but it's also close to two hours if I remember right, so I understand if folks don't want to dump that kinda time into a podcast lol
Also the remarks from Monica Padman, the show's co-host are pretty interesting, seeing as she is Indian herself. She shared a story of when she was in middle school, she had a crush on a boy. Her friend told the boy he should ask Monica to be his girlfriend, but he said he couldn't because "Her family runs the Dairy Queen." In that area of Georgia where she grew up, she said most of the Dairy Queen restaurants were owned by Indian people. Basically what the kid was saying was "I can't because she's Indian." Her parents however did not run the DQ, I think she said her dad is an engineer and her mom is a scientist of some kind? I can't remember exactly, but definitely not DQ owners lol. Anyway, she said it really affected her even into adulthood because that was when she kinda realized that she was seen as "other" or "different" by some white people. She even references this event several times in a podcast series she did with her friend Jess, a gay man, on why neither of them have been in a long-term relationship for a long time. She frequently says she's worried she'll be rejected by someone because they'll see her as "other" and brings up this same event with the episode's guest multiple times.
Anyway, I know that last paragraph was somewhat off-topic, but it goes to show how these stereotypes can propagate and really affect someone's life in a negative way (I don't believe this instance was directly related to stereotypes propagated by the character Apu, as I don't think the character existed at the time, but I could be wrong). I'm not pretending to be an expert on Monica's life by any means, but just sharing the story she talked about and how this kind of stereotyping can be harmful. I remember they also had Kumail Nanjiani on the show several months back, and he talked about how every single time he was hired or interviewed for a job, it was always for the overly stereotypical Indian caricature that was obviously meant to make fun of Indian people, and he finally just stopped taking those jobs. "How will this role reflect on my people?" is something he said he always asks himself now when he is offered a role in a movie or show.
Also the remarks from Monica Padman, the show's co-host are pretty interesting, seeing as she is Indian herself. She shared a story of when she was in middle school, she had a crush on a boy. Her friend told the boy he should ask Monica to be his girlfriend, but he said he couldn't because "Her family runs the Dairy Queen." In that area of Georgia where she grew up, she said most of the Dairy Queen restaurants were owned by Indian people. Basically what the kid was saying was "I can't because she's Indian." Her parents however did not run the DQ, I think she said her dad is an engineer and her mom is a scientist of some kind? I can't remember exactly, but definitely not DQ owners lol. Anyway, she said it really affected her even into adulthood because that was when she kinda realized that she was seen as "other" or "different" by some white people. She even references this event several times in a podcast series she did with her friend Jess, a gay man, on why neither of them have been in a long-term relationship for a long time. She frequently says she's worried she'll be rejected by someone because they'll see her as "other" and brings up this same event with the episode's guest multiple times.
Anyway, I know that last paragraph was somewhat off-topic, but it goes to show how these stereotypes can propagate and really affect someone's life in a negative way (I don't believe this instance was directly related to stereotypes propagated by the character Apu, as I don't think the character existed at the time, but I could be wrong). I'm not pretending to be an expert on Monica's life by any means, but just sharing the story she talked about and how this kind of stereotyping can be harmful. I remember they also had Kumail Nanjiani on the show several months back, and he talked about how every single time he was hired or interviewed for a job, it was always for the overly stereotypical Indian caricature that was obviously meant to make fun of Indian people, and he finally just stopped taking those jobs. "How will this role reflect on my people?" is something he said he always asks himself now when he is offered a role in a movie or show.
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My post was in response to someone asking about racism in America. Did you miss that? Thats really fucking odd that you jumped to belittle me when I was giving an on topic response.
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So can you tell me what Willy quotes are weaponized against Scottish people they way "Thank you come again" is against Indians?
It sucks because Apu is a really great character and has lots of good classic episodes where he was involved (Be Sharps immediately come to mind). I have lots good memories of the character thinking back (he's a kind, hardworking guy with a good sense of humor). But obviously he was also portrayed in a stereotypical manner that caused lots of hurt for people.
I just read a short article that Groening has "ambitious" plans for the character. I wonder if it could be a spin off show? Maybe he's just saying they will hire an Indian actor to voice Apu and give him a bigger role in the modern day show.
i haven't watched simpsons in years, so what ended up happening in show? replaced by a new character by a new VA? Still Indian (but matching VA now)? I vaguely remember he had a cousin or something.
Responses in this thread indicate he's still around in the show but hasn't had a speaking line in years.
Good on Hank. I think people defending it are wearing nostalgia glasses because The Simpsons is such a long-tenured cultural icon of a show. It's hard for people to realize that something they liked/loved could possibly be wrong or offensive, they take it personally.
Hank Azaria seems like genuinely kind person. I respect his humility and willingness to take criticism and grow from it.
This is where I'm currently standing. I'm not Indian so my feelings on this particular matter are inconsequential, but I do understand the pain of of being made fun of with pop culture references, and it especially hurts when you're a kid. And there aren't many Indian characters I can think of in American media, so for a long time it must have seemed like Apu was the only semblance of representation one could get.
Agreed! This is an expandable skill that requires both civility and empathy.
For people who don't think it is a big deal, this was 15 years after the character debuted. Some of that shit stuck around.
If he's OK with continuing to apologise until other people recognise there was an issue and follow suit, good for him.
As a desi who battled stereotypes growing up, I accept Hank's apology. It's not always easy especially when something you have been doing for decades is seen as racist slur. People bringing up Willie and other white stereotypes, get the fuck out.
I wouldn't mind something like that as long as they have some Indian talent behind it. I think about something like Kim's Convenience. If Mr Kim were a random side character in another show and we usually only got chance interactions with him doing little bits with his accent, he'd probably end up being a problematic character, but instead we get a whole show about Korean canadians created by a Korean canadian and they have multiple Korean characters that are well rounded and humanized and we get one of the best damn sitcoms.
It kinda sucks that he is the only one owning up to it when it was a collaborative effort. Like, Warner Bros and even Sesame Street have owned up to their problematic past.
I'm actually just learning about the recasting of characters now. Does that mean characters like Carl have new voices? Very interesting.
Edit; Alex Désert who does Carl also does Lou. And Eric Lopez does Bumblebee Man now.
Even though I don't watch The Simpsons anymore, this + Hank apologizing and actually wanting to be better regarding his role in perpetrating a stereotype is good shit.
If only everyone in the world were like this, we'd have way less to deal with.
A lot of sitcoms are doing this the last year. Started with Big Mouth.
