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Luckett_X

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,410
Leeds, UK
What's the (your) preferred nomenclature?

Frame by frame animation versus motion tweened or skeletal animation. Cuphead is one of the only games to feature the (needless) extreme of actually featuring physically inked on paper sprites scanned in and used to replicate animation cel deterioration.

"hand drawn" refers to the intermediate tweens, which are not drawn by a hand in this case.

Maybe don't ask questions if you don't want people to answer you.
Maybe you don't have enough RAM to understand this Michael, but theres such a thing as rhetorical questions left as humour.
 

Stairouais

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,793
France
It shows that people have no idea what can be achieved with flash.

Same for people who complain about CalArts, unity or Rpg maker styles.
 

the_wart

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,262
Because even if it is hand drawn, it does look like flash animation.

See how Cuphead does look hand drawn compared to the craptastic horrible Streets of Rage art.

VsUYf7Nl.jpg


1IEhDhcl.png

I honestly have no idea what point you are trying to make with this comparison.
 

Alienhated

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,549
It's probably the coloring then. I don't know. The gif on top without coloring looks very appealing to me. Then the one on the bottom ruins it for me.

It's probably the artstyle the thing I dislike.
I think it's a mix of modern digital coloration looking exaggeratedly "artificial"/clean/overly-bright + thick outlines + honestly questionable artstyle.
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,061
I don't usually hear "looks like a flash game" when referring to a traditionally animated game. Typically people say this when they see a game using a particular method of animation called 2D skeletal animation. When you rig up a flat 2d drawing to a skeleton, weighting the drawings to bones, it can create a puppet or paper-doll like look that is often associated with flash games because this is how a lot of flash games were made. A big part of the reason flash games were often made this way is because using such a system allows you to have as many animations as you want without increasing the file size footprint of your entity, and while file size doesn't matter much to steam games, it mattered a heck of a lot to flash games. (It also greatly reduces the amount of memory used for the artwork, too, which is always a consideration though with modern computers and consoles it's becoming less of an issue for this type of thing)

2d skeletal animation can work well, though, and whether it looks bad or good (or "paper doll like" or not) is based on the skill and artistry of the artist and animator who created it. A positive example of this style of animation would be most vanillaware games, which utilize this type of system for their characters.

This.

A lot of people just don't like the look of 2D skeletal animation.
 

AzVal

Member
May 7, 2018
1,875
That animation is insane
Exactly this is the level I would strive for, nice character design and fluid animation this does not feel flash.
No part moves really independent from another, so it feels like a single piece/characters, compare with Code: Hardcore which looks like a blast to play but imho is one of the biggest offenders of having the flashy feel.

 

Zutrax

Member
Oct 31, 2017
4,193
The day I heard Giant Bomb, the people who I thought would truly know better, say that Hollow Knight had what they considered to be "Internet flash game style" graphics, I couldn't believe what I was hearing.

That game is insanely gorgeous and the animations are so slick and well done. I don't think hand drawn by default is inferior of course, but I think every artistic medium is only as good as the effort and talent put into it. You can have bad versions of literally any graphical style.
 

MrWindUpBird

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,686
There's nothing in the SoR4 screenshot that even remotely ressembles what you're describing

It's downright gorgeous and frankly insulting to the incredibly talented artists pouring their heart and love for the franchise into this game
I can appreciate that they're putting their love into the game, but being passionate doesn't mean I'm gonna play your game when the art looks that bad.
 

Deleted member 21709

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
23,310
Skullgirls doesn't look cheap other than the backgrounds.

Not a fan of Lizard Cube's aesthetic. It looks flat to me. Streets 4 looks ok, but I'm really sad it doesn't have pixel art.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,387
It usually just means they don't like the artstyle.

A little off topic, but the animation that bothers me the most in games are the still images that sort of "wiggle", usually combined with a slow zoom/pan, that try to give a sense of motion. I get they're probably really cheap and quick to do when compared to real animation, but man there's just something off-putting about them to me.
 

Thera

Banned
Feb 28, 2019
12,876
France
Because even if it is hand drawn, it does look like flash animation.

See how Cuphead does look hand drawn compared to the craptastic horrible Streets of Rage art.

VsUYf7Nl.jpg


1IEhDhcl.png
Yep, "Flash Game" critics is about art (generic, plain color and a lack of lighting), not animation.
The problem of Street of Rage is that the world art and character art doesn't match. Maybe it is for clarity purpose but I find it quite ugly.

I don't want to meet people who are saying Hollow Knight looks like a flash game...
 

pagrab

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,005
For me it boils down to animation. If it looks very "mechanical" - for example when chunks of the body move as if they were a single part, I have the association with flash. This makes a stark contrast with very organic looking hand made animation of pixel art games. Think of the difference between The Darkest Dungeon and Street Fighter III to see what I mean.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
Yeah I've heard this about the Steamworld Dig games. I guess it's the animation style?
 

Laxoon

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jan 24, 2018
1,834
This is a good topic, I see some arguments get heated over the use of the term and I agree it's not right to say that hand drawn hd games 'look like flash games' as in they're lazy but I do think there is something kinda salient about comparing it to a flash game in how games look/animate that I just can't articulate better myself and wish I could.

the only thing for me is that the sprites look like they are made of paper. Like the characters have no "depth" to them
Yeah I think you're on to something with the paper remark, I don't know why it is but seeing games like Wonderboy and SoR4 in action reminds me of 'flat' drawings just floating around. I wish I could tell you why this isn't so apparent to me when everything is pixels, I feel like I'm nitpicking because I can't explain it but it just feels that way.
 

ultramooz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,339
Paris, France
Usually it's ignorant people drive-by posting insults at games. Or people that have no real idea how art is drawn or animated and / or have bad taste.

Some flash games are fantastic and very well animated , and some AAA 3d "blockbusters" have atrocious art direction and are horribly animated.

I'll take a good game with nicely tweened sprites over a fucking mortal kombat or injustice game. Those make my eyes bleed, and feel cheaply animated, which is worse considering the budget.
 

XaviConcept

Art Director for Videogames
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,911
The people who throw those terms at random are honestly not really worth my attention so I try my best to ignore them.

Unless its happening irl, then I go off, that part is fun.
 

Boy

Member
Apr 24, 2018
4,565
I legit thought that Streets of Rage was using Flash animation. I didn't realize that it was handrawn.
 

Leo-Tyrant

Member
Jan 14, 2019
5,095
San Jose, Costa Rica
I think it has a lot to do with the actual detail (or lack off) in the art itself. Not only the silhouette and colors, but the details not present in-between overall shapes (self shadowed bodies, shading in bodies, etc.)

I love all types of art, complex and elaborated, simple shapes, etc. However, I generally dislike the "flash-look" in games, even when I understand the massive effort behind the art, animation and engine rendering required to make the whole thing happen.

I think that if some noise or extra shadows are added in key areas and key frames, a lot of the "cheapness, in my mind" could be mitigated.

This is one of the reasons why 2D art from the 90s and pixel art looks soo good to me compared to most current 2D and pixel art (they had more shadows, shading and details going on, even when using the same fundamental principles in art and rendering)
 

UnluckyKate

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,550
my friends see 2D / low poly games and always said " is it a mobile game ? " or " is it free ? I'd never pay for this " when I play indies... It makes me mad. Because its 2D or Low Poly, they discard the value of work and art
 

Dreamwriter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,461
Part of the problem is, some (mostly younger) people just don't like 2D art at all, and will call all 2D art games things like lazy, cheap, flash-like, mobile, whatever. The thing is, 2D art isn't cheap, it's more expensive to create than 3D art, primarily because of animations - to animate something in 3D, you rig it, and then you can move each piece as you want by just dragging it around. Then if you want to play the animations at different angles, you just rotate the character or the camera and play them. To animate something in 2D, you have to completely draw each individual frame of the animation. It's especially a lot of work to make characters to turn around; top-down 2D games generally have to hand-draw each frame of each animation for a character 8 times, once for each direction the character could face (or, more realistically, 5 times and then X-flip it for the rest, maybe with arms separate so they don't switch left->right hands).

This is one reason many games with hand-drawn artwork have almost always animated certain body parts separately, like having an arm holding a gun be drawn separate, with it moving as the user aims it, totally unrelated to the body it is attached to. Back in the 16-bit era, games that animated the entire body along with each body part for things like that were generally considered AAA games.
 
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Deleted member 13645

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,052
The day I heard Giant Bomb, the people who I thought would truly know better, say that Hollow Knight had what they considered to be "Internet flash game style" graphics, I couldn't believe what I was hearing.

That game is insanely gorgeous and the animations are so slick and well done. I don't think hand drawn by default is inferior of course, but I think every artistic medium is only as good as the effort and talent put into it. You can have bad versions of literally any graphical style.

Honestly I kinda agreed with the sentiment. I don't know anywhere near enough about art and animation to know why it reminds me of them, but I always really disliked the look of Hollow Knight and it always made me remember old flash games. It makes me feel bad since I know they put a lot of work into it, but something about it very much connects my mind back to those type of games and I don't know why. I never felt it for a game like Ori or lots of other 2d games, something about Hollow Knight specifically causes the impression.
 

onpoint

Neon Deity Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
14,966
716
I would have preferred a Saturn-era pixel art style for SoR4, but I have come around to how it looks. I'm all for it.
 

nsilvias

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,790
people that played crap flash games when they were kids in class or on their home pc assocaite the games with being cheap because they were too poor to afford games when they were younger.

its like when your poor and eat beans everyday but when you become an adult and make money you vow to never go back to that ever again.
 

BradGrenz

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,507
Yep, "Flash Game" critics is about art (generic, plain color and a lack of lighting), not animation.
The problem of Street of Rage is that the world art and character art doesn't match. Maybe it is for clarity purpose but I find it quite ugly.

The world art and character art don't match in Cuphead, either. Animation frequently has distinct differences between background plates and the animation cells.
 

ZeroX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,266
Speed Force
I mean everyone knows what people mean when they say Flash Animation, it means a 2D art style they don't like. At this point it's practically shorthand for it. There's plenty of bastardized terms out there.
 

Orioto

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,716
Paris
I didn't know some of those amazing 2d games had the "flash" label. This is obviously stupid.

I personally would call "facebook graphics" games that tend to go for bad animations and cheap gradients or vector style sprites. But those are more rare now i'd say.
 
Apr 24, 2018
3,608
Terrible hand drawn art never bothers me in anime/manga/games unless it's intentionally distorted and meant to be jarring. That being said, a lot of the normal/high quality hand drawn (sprite) work that people disparage absolutely boggles my mind. I may be a bit bias towards what normal quality is, since I personally have roughly the artistic abilities of a three year old (I guess for me my artistic side went full on onto the music side).
 

Lindsay

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,135
As dumb if not worse than the weird disdain for midi/non-orchestrated music in games. Totally agreeing with everyone saying its a case of someone disliking the art style an not the tools used to make the art & animations. I dislike the SoR4 style but haven't an wouldn't call it cheap or "flash"-like.
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,171
in the mid-late 00s when those graphics started popping up i thought it was mind blowing. like an ultimate realization of what i played on nes back in the day

the fact we have luxury to call it cheap makes me feel like abe simpson handwaving those ominous clouds. though i don't completely misunderstand the complaints either
 

Gundam

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,801
Exactly this is the level I would strive for, nice character design and fluid animation this does not feel flash.
No part moves really independent from another, so it feels like a single piece/characters, compare with Code: Hardcore which looks like a blast to play but imho is one of the biggest offenders of having the flashy feel.



This look really fun, but also looks like SRW animations