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Halo developer speaks their mind - "I don't get why <dev> didn't do <thing>?"
- Thread starter Ryan.
- Start date
I hope to live in a world where people are intelligent enough to realizing you are free to call out anyone you want, but they are also free to respond to you as well.
Its give an take, you can't reasonably expect people to just pay you money and not critique the product they have just bought or you're expecting them to buy. That said you should be able to expect that they are going to hand out those critiques with a measure of decency.
Also the whole you don't know how its made or what we do so don't question it unless you do is fucking dumb.
People question decisions in movies everywhere all the time and have no clue how to make a movie or what goes into it, same with books and television.
Look at a recent example with Sonic the hedgehog, almost no one who complained about his original design had any clue what went into designing him but they knew that is was wrong and that it needed to be changed so they voiced it and by listening the movie made bank where it most certianly would have bombed had they just ignored the critisims.
Also the whole you don't know how its made or what we do so don't question it unless you do is fucking dumb.
People question decisions in movies everywhere all the time and have no clue how to make a movie or what goes into it, same with books and television.
Look at a recent example with Sonic the hedgehog, almost no one who complained about his original design had any clue what went into designing him but they knew that is was wrong and that it needed to be changed so they voiced it and by listening the movie made bank where it most certianly would have bombed had they just ignored the critisims.
"Noone likes a backsear driver who more than likely has never touched a steering wheel."
That's a damn good quote.
That's a damn good quote.
There's a pretty big catch-22 here. The technical, management, and scheduling skillsets needed to develop a game are considerable, and being large creative projects with massive innovative technical components, there are few "one size fits all" answers about game development.
Whenever gamers do pick up understanding of some part of the process, they tend to apply it out of context to other games, or misunderstand the implications of it, of ask why all games don't do it that way, or whatever.
We can tell as much as we want about the process publicly (there are tons of gdc talks freely online!) but you're going to need the years of skill and experience to really translate them! Without it, you're just going to say the same lazy devs stuff except with more misplaced confidence in some factoid you learned about one game, or one part of the process.
How about people learn to word themselves with respect and an understanding of their own lack of knowledge? This is a two way street. The onus always gets placed on the person receiving the bullshit and it's just ridiculous.
That sounds like the solution in theory but it gives other people a lot more surface for a lot more unwarranted criticism and hate, which is why most devs don't do it.
I never called him "classless," do not put words in my mouth. And if you go around calling people "ignorant little shits," you might get called a few things in return. Try it in your everyday life and see what happens.
How do you easily make the disctinction ?
Say if I posted : " I don't get why I can't see the tickets left in the server browser of battlefield V" wouldn't you say that exact same post could be used with with 2 very different intent ?
Is the answer they should give "because it was a very bad idea and they know better and I should feel bad ?".
true true, but a player being very ignorant with things like "Why didn't they add that character? They had the other, it looks easy enough" is a different form of ignorance than a developer going "Can you please tell me in my own work language how to do my job!?"
Hes totally right. Hell get blasted because God knows most fanbases love calling you all sorts of shit but as soon as you dare to send criticism back their way they become ultra sensitive little things.
Im always down with constructive criticism from outside the industry. You all can see things from the outside that we sometimes miss. Its when people go to the next step (because of the usual lack of empathy, inflated ego, arrogance, etc) and start telling devs not "I dont like it" but "do it like this" that well just stop paying attention.
Im always down with constructive criticism from outside the industry. You all can see things from the outside that we sometimes miss. Its when people go to the next step (because of the usual lack of empathy, inflated ego, arrogance, etc) and start telling devs not "I dont like it" but "do it like this" that well just stop paying attention.
343 has probably the most transparent development process ever seen in a bigger, let alone a AAA studio. Look at this January update for the Master Chief Collection. They have written dozens of these for months and months now. They are putting early versions of their games up months before release for the community to test them. This type of transparency is completely unheard of in the AAA space. Even Early Access and Kickstarter Projects don't tend to chronicle their development process and future plans this well and thoroughly.
I'd argue that you are the one spouting misdirected frustration here.
Voicing criticism and making suggestions is completely fine.
Doing so while insulting the developers or marginalizing the amount of hard work that went into a game, is not.
He's talking about the people in the second group and he's not wrong.
Doing so while insulting the developers or marginalizing the amount of hard work that went into a game, is not.
He's talking about the people in the second group and he's not wrong.
Yes, it's always up to the professional to "act professional." You've hit on the obvious here. And if you want people to act like decent human beings towards you, I suggest calling them ignorant little shits it's not the way to help that cause.
Backseat driving is real and shitty and I'm probably guilty of it, specifically with Halo. Anyone with a job should understand why criticism structured around your actual job performance is extremely irritating, especially when the person criticizing you has no idea how that job is done or what it even looks like. Basic empathy should solve this.
Well I cant say im not guilty of doing that, like complaining about why Smash has terrible netcode. Like, I get that its probably way harder than it seems, especially for a team like the Smash team where online has never really been a priority, but does that mean I should stop complaining? Or when a feature is so below the industry standard is complaining justified?
Or maybe im just misreading the conversation entirely and its more about stupid misc stuff like missing guns or saying shit like "why doesnt halo have boats", and not actual flaws like bad netcode
Or maybe im just misreading the conversation entirely and its more about stupid misc stuff like missing guns or saying shit like "why doesnt halo have boats", and not actual flaws like bad netcode
Do you think that they were acting like ignorant little shits before he called them ignorant little shits, perhaps
I get what he's saying but given his position this isn't the best outlet. Immediately, I'm thinking something is wrong at the studio other than anything else. Wrongly or rightly of course.
He specifically said he was fine with constructive criticism. I think he's probably just tired of random hot takes and people having unrealistic expectations.
Being a game dev seems like the most thankless task ever. And it has to be incredibly frustrating when devs are obviously doing the best they can and people constantly complain about a thing that they have no idea about.
He's not saying you can't criticize video games or certain aspects of games. You can say that netcode in Smash is bad. You probably shouldn't say, "I don't get why Smash devs don't X, Y, or Z about netcode."
I see nothing wrong the statements.
Dev time is real, and is WILDLY different than a modder working in their free time. Waterfall or Agile, it doesn't matter the development.
Dev time is real, and is WILDLY different than a modder working in their free time. Waterfall or Agile, it doesn't matter the development.
I just find it funny that you read the twitter thread in the OP and "Someone doesn't like feedback." was all you could gleam from it.
Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. But calling them such isn't going to win you any favor, besides a few "cool internet guy" points. Which by the way, is probably all you're looking for at that point, because that's the only thing you can gain from those fourth grade actions.
Still not a legit criticism. Modders don't have a laundry list of other tasks they need to complete in a day, a budget they have to adhere to, or a deadline they have to meet for launch. Not even remotely close to warranted. Ever.
From reading the replies, I feel like people internalize this very strongly and think the dev is talking to YOU and its making you deaf to the actual point which is having to hear from hundreds to thousands of people telling him/her how to do their job in very non polite terms.
All it would take for 99% of gamers "constructive feedback" to go away is to spend ONE day in a game studio and see what its actually like. Alas, thats not a thing that can happen. People who think you just need to be more transparent are showing a lot of naïveté there
All it would take for 99% of gamers "constructive feedback" to go away is to spend ONE day in a game studio and see what its actually like. Alas, thats not a thing that can happen. People who think you just need to be more transparent are showing a lot of naïveté there
Ignorance? People aren't obligated to waste time educating every asshat throwing vitriol their way.
Maybe if people worded themselves with more respect they'd get better answers, eh? "It looks easy enough" is another way of saying "I have no idea what I am talking about". Cut it out of your commentary. If you don't understand how a thing works or is made, try asking the questions that allow you to instead of throwing out words that sound like they'll get you what you want.
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Yes a lot of times it's unwarranted, but equally there are cases where major issues go unaddressed for years along with questionable design choices that did make their way to the game.
A live game needs to constantly bridge the gap between what developers want/can do with their game and what player base want and would like to play, one is not necessarily more important than the other. Because if you go fuck players and do whatever you want, you'll lose the player base, but if you do everything that players ask then you lose focus of your project and also put an unnecessary amount of load on the employees. And sometimes studios just have an inefficient development pipeline which becomes the real problem.
A live game needs to constantly bridge the gap between what developers want/can do with their game and what player base want and would like to play, one is not necessarily more important than the other. Because if you go fuck players and do whatever you want, you'll lose the player base, but if you do everything that players ask then you lose focus of your project and also put an unnecessary amount of load on the employees. And sometimes studios just have an inefficient development pipeline which becomes the real problem.
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He's absolutely right and I don't get why is people in here getting defensive about this.
He's not talking about feedback (positive or negative), suggestion or valid complains. He is talking about abuse and ignorance.
He's not talking about feedback (positive or negative), suggestion or valid complains. He is talking about abuse and ignorance.
It was more of a rhetorical question. You can look to any thread on any gaming website and see people acting like ignorant little shits.
The biggest contention I have with your posts is that they're... well, ignorant. Like, imagine telling a retail worker not to complain about the people who give them the most grief because not all customers are like that.
Odd way to say you find my comment funny by insulting me.
Not everyone is concerned about being "professional", particularly those who spend 60-70 hours a week in game dev.
I mean, that's great if they're willing to absorb any professional consequences for speaking freely on social media.
I'm not telling anyone not to complain about anything. The way you complain determines whether what you are doing is productive or not. Calling people ignorant little shits (regardless of how you think they are acting) is not a productive way of doing anything. Why? Because any point you may have had is now falling on death ears. You can not fight ignorance with ignorance.
Absolutely. Even then, one day at Game Studio A is completely different than at Game Studio B. I completely understand devs who don't want to engage at all with customers because, unless they're involved with community management, it's not part of their job to educate anyone. But at the same time, if they as much as mention they work somewhere, there will be dozens/hundreds/thousands of people directing their anger at them.
Being online and open about what you do is not an invitation to discuss about said work.
A modder has no accountability to anything, no that doesn't really apply. This reminds me of the Angry Joe/Major Neslon "Flip a switch" thing with the Xbox One changes. It was a total platform rethink, and still to this day people say it was a simple flip of a switch/line of code. Ignorance is high. Modern games/platforms are complex.
Have you seen twitter? That is not hard to do.
On the topic. I get were he is coming from and he is right, there isn't anything to be had with the empty statement of "This sucks. Why didn't d*** a*** dev do <x> thing?"
I get being open to critisim, but the way that the gaming community tends to voice it's discontent with mob mentality is counter productive. It will tend to produce less results than it garners.
Who could've predicted you would use this to concern troll 343i.
Yup. Call me whatever you want, I have no history of ever calling devs lazy or anything silly like that. But these comments are unprofessional and like you said, needlessly abrasive. They have no chance or improving any dialogue and serve only to allow "good fans" to feel good dog-piling on strawmen.
Read through the thread and seeing others post the exact same conclusion. You should not try to infer something from my post other than what I actually posted. It can come across as harassment.
Why don't the Halo developers come round my house for a few beers and a couple of rounds of Smash Bros, huh? Why don't they come eat the pizza I'd buy for them to show my appreciation for all their hard work? Why won't they do what I say? Lazy devs won't even drink my beer! Or a non-alcoholic alternative!
I'm gonna go against the grain here and say that devs aren't and should never be shielded from criticism. Obviously any criticisms should be directed in a constructive manner, but as a consumer who spends my hard earned cash on your product, I have every right to criticize something I pay for whether I'm an expert in game dev or not.