-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
Haitian guy excited about Cyberpunk 2077 representation of his people
- Thread starter Rodjer
- Start date
There it is, not even 3 comments in.
CDPR killin' it w/ representation. Cyberpunk finna be GOTD 2020.
Spoken like someone woefully ignorant of Haitian culture.
Much like Christianity in the US, you don't have to practice voodoo in order for it to have an effect on your everyday life in Haiti. It's not just a belief: for many, it's a lifestyle.
You're also welcome to answer my question, assuming you're capable.
Last edited:
The Haitian is overjoyed and stoked and you're like 'but...' - come on.
I'm Haitian too bro and I had an issue with it. It's really not that big of a deal.
Not everyone will agree on the representation, but as always it is important to listen to the affected groups rather than speaking for them -- this video is a legitimate reaction, as will be the legitimate reactions of other Haitian people in this and other threads.
When I hear from affected groups that CDPR are doing the right thing, I get very happy and excited, because it means they are listening. Likewise, when I hear from affected groups that they are still discontent, I realize that the discourse between these groups and CDPR needs to continue, and the company needs to get better. If getting a better company that produces better games for everyone is the actual goal, it's one I can easily respect, because games should be fun for everyone and be for everyone.
There are quite a few people where I don't think their goal is for CDPR to get better, be better, and have better representation. I think their goal is to basically shame the developer out of existence, which isn't just painfully stupid, it's just never actually going to happen. Being a part of the discussion should be the goal, and I've been really happy to see that -- at least THIS year -- outlets other than Waypoint have decided to quiz down CDPR about all of these issues and make it very clear that we are demanding better from them. A company as big and influential growing into being on the side of minorities of every kind will have far more of impact than having them disappear over night because their twitter has been shitty.
Seeing the response to the character creator including more options for trans people has been an incredible delight. And that doesn't mean that that representation is "fixed", or that CDPR is magically forgiven for all past transgressions, but it does mean that they are becoming a better company through this back and forth, and that should be celebrated, and so should, for instance, our trans community here that puts up with no end of bullshit when they call this stuff out time and time again.
So, sorry to hijack the thread about the larger issues -- this is a thread about Haitian representation after all -- but a big shout out to people who in good faith criticize CDPR in an effort to see the company become better, as we know they can.
When I hear from affected groups that CDPR are doing the right thing, I get very happy and excited, because it means they are listening. Likewise, when I hear from affected groups that they are still discontent, I realize that the discourse between these groups and CDPR needs to continue, and the company needs to get better. If getting a better company that produces better games for everyone is the actual goal, it's one I can easily respect, because games should be fun for everyone and be for everyone.
There are quite a few people where I don't think their goal is for CDPR to get better, be better, and have better representation. I think their goal is to basically shame the developer out of existence, which isn't just painfully stupid, it's just never actually going to happen. Being a part of the discussion should be the goal, and I've been really happy to see that -- at least THIS year -- outlets other than Waypoint have decided to quiz down CDPR about all of these issues and make it very clear that we are demanding better from them. A company as big and influential growing into being on the side of minorities of every kind will have far more of impact than having them disappear over night because their twitter has been shitty.
Seeing the response to the character creator including more options for trans people has been an incredible delight. And that doesn't mean that that representation is "fixed", or that CDPR is magically forgiven for all past transgressions, but it does mean that they are becoming a better company through this back and forth, and that should be celebrated, and so should, for instance, our trans community here that puts up with no end of bullshit when they call this stuff out time and time again.
So, sorry to hijack the thread about the larger issues -- this is a thread about Haitian representation after all -- but a big shout out to people who in good faith criticize CDPR in an effort to see the company become better, as we know they can.
Nah man, one Haitian is cool with it. Get with the program. He gave the seal of approval for all Haitians.
There's so much of this that goes on at era, just non stop attempts to make character judgments on other posters. It's an inclination towards negativity instead of understanding and context.
Assuming you're capable? lol. Such arrogance.
Right. A Haitian woefully ignorant of my own culture. And what a stupid comparison to Christianity in the US. It's not even remotely similar in the context. And do you see every American in the video game be portrayed as a bible-thumping Christian? Or talk about religion at all? Voodoo's prominence in depictions of Haitian people is lazy, uninspired and uninteresting.
Last edited:
Guess you're incapable after all.
I'm moving on from this bore of a convo.
This thread is giving me a headache, and I don't feel like retyping out my thoughts, so I'm just going to copy/paste what I said in a thread we were having at work. The topic was primarily centered around the transgender controversy surrounding Cyberpunk, but my statement can also apply to representation in general:
"Whenever someone uses the phrase "outrage culture" unironicallly, I cringe. From my perspective, marginalized groups (people of color, women, the LGBT community, etc), have had an uphill struggle regarding representation in entertainment media for generations.
Calling out problematic representation in said entertainment media (even entertainment media that i'm personally super stoked for, like Cyberpunk 2077), isn't "outrage culture". As a straight, black male, I can't say I have much say in regards to CD Projekt's problematic treatment of the transgender community, so I gladly defer to the actual community that is feeling upset, misrepresented, or exploited, to offer a more informed opinion about why it bothers them.
The worst thing that happens in the discourse of sensitive topics like sexism, racism, transphobia, homophobia, islamophobia, is that too many people's kneejerk reaction is to get defensive, especially if it's leveled at something that they enjoy. That's not helpful to the conversation, and flippantly dismissing the group's concerns over problematic representation as "outrage culture" is, to me, incredibly disrespectful to those groups.
I have quite a bit to say about how people of color are represented in popular media. I have a vested interest in seeing that representation (and lack of representation), improved across all entertainment media.
CD Projekt hasn't exactly had the best record when it comes to representation in their games, so when they do decide to be inclusive, it's not surprising that the groups being represented will have something to say about it. And I think it's more than just a little worth it to listen to any grievances or concerns they may have about how they are being represented.
As a creator myself, I welcome as much constructive input as I can get when creating my worlds and characters, especially when they include marginalized groups that I am not a part of, and have less experience with."
I'll also add that just because a handful of people from a marginalized group may be grateful to see themselves represented at all, doesn't negate the people from that marginalized group that are concerned about their representation.
So, should women just collectively be happy that they even exist in video games, regardless of how piss poor they're represented across the industry, or should they continue to call out sexist and problematic portrayals of women because some women may not have a problem with it? Of course not, so why dismiss concerns of Haitians that do have a problem with the representation of their culture, or their culture being reduced to one overused, stereotypical element (like Voodoo)?
"Whenever someone uses the phrase "outrage culture" unironicallly, I cringe. From my perspective, marginalized groups (people of color, women, the LGBT community, etc), have had an uphill struggle regarding representation in entertainment media for generations.
Calling out problematic representation in said entertainment media (even entertainment media that i'm personally super stoked for, like Cyberpunk 2077), isn't "outrage culture". As a straight, black male, I can't say I have much say in regards to CD Projekt's problematic treatment of the transgender community, so I gladly defer to the actual community that is feeling upset, misrepresented, or exploited, to offer a more informed opinion about why it bothers them.
The worst thing that happens in the discourse of sensitive topics like sexism, racism, transphobia, homophobia, islamophobia, is that too many people's kneejerk reaction is to get defensive, especially if it's leveled at something that they enjoy. That's not helpful to the conversation, and flippantly dismissing the group's concerns over problematic representation as "outrage culture" is, to me, incredibly disrespectful to those groups.
I have quite a bit to say about how people of color are represented in popular media. I have a vested interest in seeing that representation (and lack of representation), improved across all entertainment media.
CD Projekt hasn't exactly had the best record when it comes to representation in their games, so when they do decide to be inclusive, it's not surprising that the groups being represented will have something to say about it. And I think it's more than just a little worth it to listen to any grievances or concerns they may have about how they are being represented.
As a creator myself, I welcome as much constructive input as I can get when creating my worlds and characters, especially when they include marginalized groups that I am not a part of, and have less experience with."
I'll also add that just because a handful of people from a marginalized group may be grateful to see themselves represented at all, doesn't negate the people from that marginalized group that are concerned about their representation.
So, should women just collectively be happy that they even exist in video games, regardless of how piss poor they're represented across the industry, or should they continue to call out sexist and problematic portrayals of women because some women may not have a problem with it? Of course not, so why dismiss concerns of Haitians that do have a problem with the representation of their culture, or their culture being reduced to one overused, stereotypical element (like Voodoo)?
Haitian guy here. Okay with it, because quite honestly its nice to just be included.
That said, I find the idea that I being okay with the representation to be conclusive proof that nothing is wrong to be pretty gross.
That said, I find the idea that I being okay with the representation to be conclusive proof that nothing is wrong to be pretty gross.
Sak pase Sak ap fet! Cote tout Ayisyen mwen yo?!?!?!
Same the funny thing is when Haiti is including its always Voodoo. I mean I understand but we're much more than that. First Black Republic stand up!
Ehhh, I think I have met only a handful of Haitians in the U.S. and back in the island who practice voodoo in my life. I can't speak for rural and interior Haiti, but I rather get tired of how much we are only known for voodoo. The practice and culture one way or another doesn't bother me, but I hate how much we only get mentioned for voodoo.
Vre! Vraiment! I only saw the movie a few years ago. The movie fascinated me with its depiction of Duvalier during the 80s. Again, voodoo being tied with Haitian culture makes me roll my eyes more than offend me. It should be noted that one person being alright or one person being offended isn't representative of all of us.
Look. We will not know how things are portrayed until the game comes out. It's ok to have healthy skepticism regarding CDPR and their past and how it applies to this game. But it's not something we'll be able to judge until the game is released.
But we are also playing a Cyberpunk game set in a dystopian future. Not saying the game is going to be plagued by stereotypes, but the people we encounter probably aren't going to be the best.
But I have to say. As a black man. This game is looking to have the best character models of actual black people. And that's so damn good to see.
But we are also playing a Cyberpunk game set in a dystopian future. Not saying the game is going to be plagued by stereotypes, but the people we encounter probably aren't going to be the best.
But I have to say. As a black man. This game is looking to have the best character models of actual black people. And that's so damn good to see.
Yup. Like that woman from the stills we have seen looks so distinctly black, and not some distorted simulacrum.
Sak Pase Davilar!
Yeah not really offended just like really? I just they don't portray them with a generic Caribbean accent. I'll reserve final judgement but I'm skeptical.
Pito nou led, nou la, Dynomutt! I feel the same. I more gave a sigh at them not being more original with how Haitians are depicted. Don't get me started on Bad Boys II back in the day with their "Haitians." If I don't hear a THICK ass Haitian accent like my dad never left Pilate of Cap Haitien, I'm boycotting!
I'm just glad this game looks like it's going to pass the video standard black haircut hard-limit of 2 (cornrows/afro) and it's a beautiful thing to see, looks really good in the latest screenshots.
And of course they completely omits the rest of my post. LMAO. A+ troll.
"It's interesting how CD Projekt is both embracing and gently shifting the original source material from Cyberpunk 2020. When they were first introduced in 1988, the Voodoo Boys were a violent fringe group, described as "a terrorist gang with ritual magic overtones" mostly comprised of white people with a Caribbean-inspired affect. Years later, CD Projekt has recast the Voodoo Boys as Haitian spiritualists whose unique form of worship involves hacking and trips through cyberspace. They have a passion for black leather and powerful computers, and are well respected all throughout the Pacifica neighborhood."
Pretty sad that people don't read articles anymore.
Pretty sad that people don't read articles anymore.
Last edited:
From the gameplay demo I saw, the Voodoo Boys and Placide are treated as cunning and cautious, and definitely have more clout than V does at that point in the story. The only thing I thought was maybe a bit overt was how the thick accents were 100% reflected in the subtitles, -- every single spoken "they" and "them" is written "dey" and "dem", (with a few transition words omitted from the occasional sentence to sentence to make them seem just a notch more exotic). Even when the auto-translator mod that the demo showcased translated to English, it still wrote out the text this way IIRC.
I feel like maybe they should have just left the subtitles as is in unaltered english and maybe let the accents and voiceover speak (literally) for itself? I'm not sure what was gained by writing the subtitles so phonetically precisely...you wouldn't quote a person with an accent like that.
I feel like maybe they should have just left the subtitles as is in unaltered english and maybe let the accents and voiceover speak (literally) for itself? I'm not sure what was gained by writing the subtitles so phonetically precisely...you wouldn't quote a person with an accent like that.
Some people can't hear. Like baby talk, the inclusion of "umm", "uh" and stuff like that in subtitles, I don't particularly like it, but yea. They can always make separate subtitles, but I don't think it's a big deal.
From poland no less. Step it up american studios.
That would be pretty nitpicky at that point.
I'm laughing so hard right now. Pops is from La Plaine. Super thick accent. Bad Boys II was a hilarious fail at portraying Haitians. Close don't count.
They need to get an OG from Miami or Brooklyn give them some Griot and Bannann Peze. That accent will come right out!
Folks don't read shit, they just jump to conclusions and stick to that just because. lol
They did the same thing with the accent in The Witcher 3 at least. Peasants accent very present in the subtitles and same with the dwarfs.
Now, they are doing the same but this time the characters we see are based in real world culture. I definitely agree with your point.
Definitely read it a few times. They called them the Voodoo Boys....might as well went with Loup Garou...
I mean "Haitian Spiritualist" is literally what Voodoo/Vodou is. I'm saying this as a Haitian. It may not necessarily mean Black Magic but Loa worship is Voodoo. But it's essentially one in the same.
It looks like they are using Haitians but adopting a more Santeria Magick Blanche aspect. I may be wrong. Coincidentally both are like dialects of Yoruba tradition.
We will see how they portray it on game.
Saying all this as a Haitian.
Still will reserve judgement. Never played a from them.
Yes, that's perfectly fine. What irritates me is people jumping to conclusions when they have possible answers in front of them. It's a waste of everyone's time and doesn't look good on anyone.
Hey rfriar I can understand your position. I'm not a shoot first ask later type of person. Need facts. They're consulting with a NGO so that's definitely interesting and respectable. With that said inclusion is awesome. They have a great opportunity to give Haiti a mention outside of a natural disaster. Good can come of this.
I think if you read some of the posts from Haitian people (like me), our annoyance is with the mention and use of voodoo in the first place. It's not really jumping to a conclusion there. Haitian identity goes well beyond voodoo, and I think it's OK to be bothered by media using that as a constant focal point.
At this point i understand that particular element. Since its now been situated from both Haitian perspectives, still it was already explained by the developer, as being dual commentary. In relation to 2077's world building and it being a name stereotypically forced on to them from the perspective of the community within Pacifica and it just never changed. Which seems like context enough along with everything else. Now the larger context of being annoyed by the stereotypical depiction at face value is indeed warranted. So no argument from me on that front, since that's based on individual takes.
I mean as its been pictured before, everyone is getting stereotypical portrayed to certain degrees, but context is key.
Last edited:
Yea, I concede it's nitpicky. Just bringinf it up because it was pretty much the only thing that I personally noticed that I even dwelled on wrt the topic. I also didn't consider wanting to represent the accent for the hearing impaired.
I think the game and it's content suffers a lot from being an addition to the existing Cyberpunk world. To those who know there's a tabletop game it's based on, the Voodoo Boys connection is obvious, but to 99% of people who are interacting with the world for the first time, it definitely comes off as jarring to assume an IP from 2019 is playing on tired stereotypes.
My dad be bothering me every time I come back to Florida with "Sa w genyen, Guy?" I'm from Brooklyn, so we definitely need to seen these Haitians have some Griot, Tassot or Saucepois. Our fathers probably know each other, lol. All these Haitians know someone through family. I saw a lady in Flatbush with chicken feet on the bus today, with sugarcane in another bag. I'm done, bro.
My guess re: subtitles is that it's assumed they'll be primarily used by people who are unable to listen to the vocal track, and they want to communicate the accent in both contexts. But who knows, really.
Don't treat different cultures and races of people as a hivemind. Plenty of forum members on here like the Jackie character but personally, as a Hispanic myself, I find him to be a walking stereotype.
The same stereotype Hollywood has been peddling for decades when it comes to Latino representation. It would be nice to have a Spanish character that doesn't feel the need to pepper in random Spanish words while speaking English. Just to remind you that, you know...he's Spanish.
It's cringe and so I can understand people being irritated with way Haitians are supposedly being portrayed.
Last edited:
You're acting like CDPR just came up with this stuff out of the blue. They didn't. The Voodoo Boys are part of the source material. They are a gang in the Cyberpunk universe. If anything CDPR has improved on their depiction.
Yeah, like...there are elements of representation one can imagine will be fulfilling here. Walking around and Haitians being a prominent presence, getting to see Haitians doing awesome, futuristic stuff as opposed to the usual scenarios media tends to offer, meeting cool and interesting Haitian characters.
Those are sort of the big stick things, right? Those are all things that have a powerful effect, and make it easier to look past potential shortcomings in representation. Like, a fantastic character design alone often goes a long, long way. It's problematic that CDPR decided a group called the Voodoo Boys would be a good entryway for Haitian representation, it's problematic that the Haitian representation in this game directly invokes lazy stereotypes, and we don't know whether we'll see Haitian representation outside that particular group...even with all that, it's not surprising some Haitians are imagining the game might be taking some positive steps here.
The OP seems to have been posted with the intention of deflating criticism, and I don't get that impulse. Why would this specific situation not have room for, you know, a full range of reactions? I mean, for one thing, there are all sorts of ways that someone can be excited and see a lot of room for improvement at the same time. Someone can think various character designs are fucking amazing, even empowering, but then think those designs are wasted on a work that ends up falling short and being regressive overall. Someone can see a lot of good while being frustrated with various decisions. And going to less conflicted experiences, the mere existence of someone who thinks something is the best thing ever doesn't cancel out all the people who think that same something is irredeemable trash - after all, there's always a very good chance something could have been significantly better, and criticism always has a place.
Yes, a gang full of white people. The obvious answer to improving the depiction of the Voodoo Boys wasn't necessarily "damn, considering the voodoo theme, wouldn't it be perfect if we made them Haitian??" Like, we can all see how that line of thinking leans a little hard on stereotypes, right?