On a sliding scale I think it's EU/Canada > USA >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Russia >>>>>>>>>> China
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Guardian: Majority of Europeans fear Biden unable to fix 'broken' US
- Thread starter SilentPanda
- Start date
- News
I'm concerned because the United States have done nothing. Trump gets away with lying for 4 years and it looks like he's going to walk away after a full term with no punishment at all. They're going to rely on NY state to press charges for taxes or whatever, but what he has done federally will have no consequences. These impeachments appear to do nothing because the system is so broken that the leader of the country can get away with anything. Globally, that is very concerning.
Definitely more concerned with curbing the power and influence of a rival.
It is not only about human rights though. Confrontation with China is going to happen on stuff like trade, forced technology transfers, IP theft and protection etc. There could have been a united front on all of this. But the Europeans (well mostly Merkel) are clearly not interested. And just when Biden is going to come into power too.
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And once again you're completely ignoring Congress and the important role Bernie will play as head of the Senate budget committee.
You speak as though the president is all that matters.
A major issue with Trump was all of his enablers in Congress, especially in the Senate.
If your argument for why Biden is better than Sanders is "at least Sanders has some influence" you have already lost the argument tbh. I think Biden will be fine, but he ain't exciting unless you compare him to Trump.
Edit...case in point https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/18/politics/mitch-mcconnell-chuck-schumer-power-sharing-deal/index.html
Anyone who think that Sanders would have made a lick of a difference as far as foreign influence goes is deluded.
Like no one gives a fuck who you choose after the orange stain really.
But really for the US it's all transactional, they didn't give a flying fuck when the regime they imposed on another country sent dissident flying from planes without parachutes.
at least China doesn't randomly get insane for no reason, that's easier to deal with.
Worse yet, China is actually a far better partner in a fight against climate change.
Like no one gives a fuck who you choose after the orange stain really.
I mean, I'm not even sure I agree with the Russia and China part but really I don't think anyone disagree that China really doesn't give a fuck at all and that the US cares more about it.
But really for the US it's all transactional, they didn't give a flying fuck when the regime they imposed on another country sent dissident flying from planes without parachutes.
at least China doesn't randomly get insane for no reason, that's easier to deal with.
Worse yet, China is actually a far better partner in a fight against climate change.
I don't think it's that, and in fact, those simple both-sides narratives, especially on the left, contribute to the paralysis in America. It feeds a sense of both sides being equally to blame, that they're both in on it, leading to a conspiratorial nihilism and misplaced anger, when the causes of our instability and March toward illiberalism are pretty apparent:
- Republicans and their stakeholders
- Powerful right wing propaganda on TV and social media.
- Structural flaws in the American Constitution's governmental system that have been exploited by that party
You eliminate or neutralize those forces and the American empire isn't exactly healthy again, but it would stop cold in its tracks our trend toward pure illiberalism and a failed state.
And in that context Europeans are right to be suspicious of Biden's ability to fix a broken America because he is prescribing solutions that cure none of the underlying diseases. A hand across the aisle isn't going to do anything to disarm and disable the enormously powerful echo chambers on the right that is in a vicious cycle to our democracy, incentivized toward greater and greater hyper partisanship, fear, conspiracy, hatred, and victimization in an effort to compete for a share of a radicalized conservative audience that is also a key voting bloc for many Republican lawmakers, districts, and states, and therefore carries over into real world politics because of the enormous power it holds over the Republican party and lawmakers.
Ideally Biden would indirectly foster a hyper successful administration that keeps Republicans out of power, but there too arises America's other problem: we continue to normalize fascism and we have a thermostatic attention span. History tells us that America will simply trend back toward the opposition party, regardless of how radical they get, and Republicans will gain power and see their path toward even more power through those same insidious means. Then out of fear and a desire for preservation of power, after years of successfully doing so. continuing chipping away institutionally at our democratic-republic to stack the deck in their favor and neutralize democratic channels to remove them, while Democrats never enjoy enough power to reverse their structural damage...or go after their powerful influencers driving much of this.
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I'm saying that Bernie wouldn't magically fix everything as president, either.
The president and Congress have their roles to play. Bernie in the Senate can be really effective. So it's not a matter of only Bernie can fix things as president. He's going to get a lot of work done in Congress while working with Biden, whom he is already friends with.
Your view focusing on just the president is far too simplistic. And I'm just tired of people saying we'd only have a hope of fixing things if Bernie was president.
Basically we'd need a Congress that's ready and willing to curb a president. Unfortunately, that doesn't really happen.
I'm cautiously optimistic only in the instance that the older gen is leaving. Not to say that the new ones are always better, but more that Congress seems to be getting more vocal. And it does help that atleast now, McConnell can't block everything. We'll now get to vote on more legislation. Ultimately, the next 2 years will be a gauge for the next 4. And well, trump throughly blew up the Republicans. So i wanna see if there is any lasting damage.
So we European shouldn't have opinions about the US because you don't want to hear them?
Alright.
Do you have examples? When you say "Europe", which countries are you referring to? Can you expand on what do you mean by "hating on the US since young age"? Essentially: what are you talking about?
Nah Bernie wouldn't fix things completely but he would have been a he'll of a much bigger step towards a progressive agenda. My understanding is that the president sets the agenda and congress makes it happen. Yes it's good that Bernie and some squad members have some influence but I still expect massive pandering to corporate sponsors with Biden in charge. There will be some super disappointing decisions on police reform and healthcare unless the progressive arm of the party can put up a fight. We will see what happens, I just think it could have been better. He does seem like a nice guy though so you never know.
tbf, Europe has a fairly transactional relationship with it's own values as well, not quite as much as the US, but still.
I think the two Bush wars still have lingering effect as well. The willingness to blindly follow the US's lead was diminished a lot by those wars. (And that's kinda true within the US too). Even if trump wasn't quite as destructive, i think the polls would still be in the "stay neutral" camp.
You think the dems wouldn't have won the Senate if Sanders was the candidate? Which states would have gone for Trump instead?
The thing is that's not actually clear to me that Bernie would have gotten more done legislatively. And might actually create a rebound effect harming progressivism and leftism. And I say this as someone that thinks Bernie is probably the greatest and most morally defensible politician of the last 50 years, maybe ever.
As is the political dynamics are such that very likely what happens to Bernie is he has a Jimmy Carter like relationship with his own party(in a different way) and much moreso than Biden, moderate Dems refuse to sign onto his agenda items, even if he literally copy and pasted much of what Biden would have offered in terms of something like the Stimulus. Biden is a guy Manchin can sell working with to West Virginia, Sanders is not, and that would go for any moderate Republican as well. And that reputation and dynamic would paralyze pretty much all of his agenda.
Where Bernie would have been more effective is executively, but even then I can very much see a scenario where the conservative advocacy groups hyper ventilate over every action and push it to the courts, and the conservative courts feel uniquely emboldened to curb his activity. I still suspect he'd produce much more good with that power than Biden ultimately will(in fact I worry about some of Biden's predilections when it comes to the military side), but on the whole I'm not sure it's the leap forward for progressivism many think it would have been
Yes, if you read my follow up posts I clarified my statement. I said England, France, and Holland and that I didn't literally mean its taught in schools but there is a clear cultural distaste for Americans. I also said the reputation was deserved.
To be fair I think this would be my assessment too but that doesn't mean that Bernie wouldn't have been a more exciting choice. He would have stirred up the establishment but you are right it could have got to the point that members of his own party would be willing him to fail. That isn't his fault, it merely demonstrates how fucked US politics is and that the path to real progress is likely to be a long one.
That's very true.
Then again the US does have its use as France showed with Lybia.
Seriously that was an impressive use of diplomacy to solve a personal problem from France.
I don't think that's true though. I think the rest of the world sees America as big and brash and bold and uncouth. Up until recently you have also had the reputation of being extremely friendly and the American dream being something to strive for. Your country has shat on that reputation over the past few years though.
It's my own personal experience being married to a European and spending a significant amount of time the last 20 years in Europe both for business and pleasure. Having had interactions with thousands of people in dozens of countries. The reputation is for the most part earned but there is a lot of broad generalization about such a large populace.
Fair enough. My experience is 36 years growing up in the UK. Depends what you mean by cultural distaste I suppose. If you mean a distaste for America's culture as in the arts etc then that's maybe a given considering the culture of the countries you mentioned. Could be an element of looking down their nose at Kevin Feige being compared to Shakespeare or Mozart or Rembrandt. If it's Americans in general there will be some tongue in cheek shapes at Americans being stupid but they are very much tongue in cheek considering a lot of the world's leading educational institutions are American.
I agree with them. At the same time though I am definitely concerned with the reports of fascist demonstrations in a lot of European countries.
Not saying those countries can't walk and chew gum but still worrying.
Not saying those countries can't walk and chew gum but still worrying.
Sorry, but I don't think that your "taught since young age" can be brushed off with this. Your experience is limited to you and to make such a generalisation of all Europeans, like we are some sort of secret religious group that grow up hating the US is not only gross, but highly offensive.
From this board I would have expected a level of discussion that goes beyond this and it's frankly disappointing to read such poor statements here.
The blocker to a "united front" is America, not Merkel or European leaders. America is the unreliable partner because a) the bipartisan foreign policy consensus in America has continually resulted in failed interventions and unforced errors, and either ignorance or outright hostility to global issues like refugee crises and climate policy, and b) much like Britain, America is neither interested in nor capable of treating its partners as equals.
And that's just what you get with a Democrat in power, never mind the mayhem unleashed internationally by Republicans on a recurring basis. If Merkel is "not interested" it's because we've seen this bullshit cycle of behaviour repeatedly already and know the result.
Nope. It is mostly her preserving the interest of her own nation. Merkel was weak on Russia and now she is weak on China.
Yugoslavia was worse because they had the support of the Social Democrats and the Greens , lead by that sellout Schroeder
Whilst the interest of America is what exactly? It's not about preserving and more likely imposing their own economy as they have done a number of times in a number of countries around the world?
This thread really goes a long way to show how this board can be really skewed towards US.
Y'all are here talking about being liberal, tolerant, etc. and then you can't stand the first critical thought or analysis towards your country and have to respond either with bullshit gifs, bullshit arguments of us hating the US and so on.
Worry not, I guess an adult discussion is out of the way and we will retreat into our specific threads for our countries.
>Please stay on topic and avoid sweeping generalisations. Thanks.
I've counted at least 1-2 sweeping generalisations: was there any action against them?
- I think Arizona doesn't flip Dem with Bernie, whether Mark Kelly wins or not would be closer but he might still pull it out.
- I think Georiga doesn't flip Dem with Bernie, Ossoff's race might not make it to runoffs. The runoffs wouldn't have the benefit of the state just being flipped for the first time encouraging Blue voters. Warnock might have still won against Loeffler.
- The Michigan senate seat was really close, Gary Peters won the race by less than 100,000 votes (a closer margin than Biden did in Michigan). I'd assume he would keep that seat but it might be even closer.
- We lose Bernie's seat in Vermont because Vermont has a Republican governor.
- Beyond that, I guess we would have to see what Bernie's true appeal was to the WWC and black northern cities were to know whether he would win PA, WI, and MI. He lost all those states pretty badly in the Dem primary to Biden.
That all would give Dems 47 to 49 seats in the Senate.
Ah, so when America takes an action primarily in its self-interest it's ok and everyone should play ball, despite America's disastrous foreign policy record, but when anyone else acts in self-interest it is "weak". The dance Germany has to do in its relations with Russia, a neighbouring country and an energy supplier, pales in comparison to any time America prostrates itself before the likes of Saudi Arabia or Israel.
Weak on Russia? Merkel and Macron are basically the reason Ukraine and Russia didn't escalate into full blown war.
Just because they don't dick around and start bombing places doesn't mean they are weak.
When was the last time the US solved a foreign policy crisis with diplomacy?
American doesn't outshine the rest of the world in anything but pointless wars, gun owners, and casually accepted racism. There was a time people from some places may have been jealous of your democracy, but that's long gone
Just want to thank the mods for the staff post in this thread. It's 100% spot on.
Right wing terrorism is just as much a problem in the EU as it is in the US. Let's not act as if the US is somehow worse in that regard. People came out in droves, and fought and made noise to speak out against police brutality and the Muslim ban in America. Americans were killed for standing up against police brutality. With some exceptions, I doubt something of that scale would happen in the majority of EU countries.
Right wing terrorism is just as much a problem in the EU as it is in the US. Let's not act as if the US is somehow worse in that regard. People came out in droves, and fought and made noise to speak out against police brutality and the Muslim ban in America. Americans were killed for standing up against police brutality. With some exceptions, I doubt something of that scale would happen in the majority of EU countries.
Are you serious?
Like...seriously?
Huh?
Even a fucking trade agreement can lead to 250.000 people demonstrating in germany
Here's hundreds of thousands of people protesting against labor laws in France
In Bulgaria hundreds of thousands of people have been protesting for over half a year now.
The utter lack of large scale civil unrest and constant (I'm not talking about ceremonial one-off events like the Women's March) protests until the BLM protests last year were probably one of the most concerning, disappointing aspect of the the last 4 years.
Most European countries would probably have been shut down by a general strike 2 weeks into Trump's presidency.
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You're right, I doubt the scale of police brutality and travel bans would happen in the majority of EU countries.
Jesus Christ, imagine glorifying American protest movements vs the EU when the French are ready to storm the Bastille again at the drop of a hat over the likes of reduced overtime pay.
Of course, unless he turns out to be far more successful and progressive than Obama. Times are different, but Biden may have been the man to vanquish Trump, but I don't have much faith in his ability to put forward a decent climate policy, nor reform the police or tackle structural inequalities, even with raising the minimum wage - which is a good step by the way. Needs to obviously go to universal health care as a basic, and hard curb remuneration at the top levels to really bring inequality down. Also improve public transport, since travel is anothor hug cost in the US. I also don't doubt many businesses will find ways to dodge the minimimum wage unless enforcement is harsh.
Some of those results in the poll are interesting. UK view of the US is very negative, but the government is likely to make a lot of concessions to get a trade deal with the US...II imagine there is a very negative view in the UK towards importation of certain US foodstuffs, particularly around meat, but the UK government is garbage and their Tory, so US standards are those they crave.
Video Kojima: Depends on where in Europe you are talking about...if you mean Europe in a broader sense, then what has gone on in parts of Eastern Europe has probably been more heated. Check for instance, Belarus, Turkey and Ukraine. Also, many countries in Europe have had massive protests over the last years. Police brutality in Western Europe isn't as high as the US, mainly becuase they aren't armed as bad. But it can be pretty darn bad in places like France and even spain where their police are more militarised than in say the UK.
Some of those results in the poll are interesting. UK view of the US is very negative, but the government is likely to make a lot of concessions to get a trade deal with the US...II imagine there is a very negative view in the UK towards importation of certain US foodstuffs, particularly around meat, but the UK government is garbage and their Tory, so US standards are those they crave.
Video Kojima: Depends on where in Europe you are talking about...if you mean Europe in a broader sense, then what has gone on in parts of Eastern Europe has probably been more heated. Check for instance, Belarus, Turkey and Ukraine. Also, many countries in Europe have had massive protests over the last years. Police brutality in Western Europe isn't as high as the US, mainly becuase they aren't armed as bad. But it can be pretty darn bad in places like France and even spain where their police are more militarised than in say the UK.
I do think that the USA is unfixable in the sense that some of the problems enabling right-wing paramilitary groups go down to the bill of rights, such as the right to bear arms giving them the ability to freely amass military-like power, and the right to free speech as written legalizes hate speech in a way that most western nations don't. Further support that with cultural attitudes that often view things like the bill of rights and constitution as immutable quasi-religious documents or cultural landmarks rather than standard legal documents to which revision is normal, and you develop further resistance to fixing these holes.
The real scare comes with the realisation of how easy it is for the US to elect an idiot for their leader by exploiting the weakness of the antiquated election system and by manipulating the sentiments of their less bright citizens.
It is also scary because of the impact that position has to the rest of the world. US is not like every other democracy in the world, it is regarded differently because it feels the need to lead the western world and the western world, sadly, is expecting to be lead by the US. So, after seeing how terrible things can be having an idiot as the leader when Bush was in office it must have been an experience of true horror when (most of) the US allies realised they had to deal with an even worse buffoon the night the orange dude came to power.
An experience that was relived again and again for the entirety of his term on every moment of it because he was (is) perceived to be the unofficial leader of racists and Nazis all over the world: "If US can have one of ours as their leader of their country then this can happen here too."
And we (EU and Europe in general) have our own huge problem with racism, Nazism and bigotry, this was never a US only problem. But it is another thing to have Orban, a well known prick, to rule Hungary and another to have Trump as the "leader of the free world".
At least Trump is now gone and while the work of restoring trust between US and it's allies will be of colossal proportions, it is a task they can't afford to not partake.
It is also scary because of the impact that position has to the rest of the world. US is not like every other democracy in the world, it is regarded differently because it feels the need to lead the western world and the western world, sadly, is expecting to be lead by the US. So, after seeing how terrible things can be having an idiot as the leader when Bush was in office it must have been an experience of true horror when (most of) the US allies realised they had to deal with an even worse buffoon the night the orange dude came to power.
An experience that was relived again and again for the entirety of his term on every moment of it because he was (is) perceived to be the unofficial leader of racists and Nazis all over the world: "If US can have one of ours as their leader of their country then this can happen here too."
And we (EU and Europe in general) have our own huge problem with racism, Nazism and bigotry, this was never a US only problem. But it is another thing to have Orban, a well known prick, to rule Hungary and another to have Trump as the "leader of the free world".
At least Trump is now gone and while the work of restoring trust between US and it's allies will be of colossal proportions, it is a task they can't afford to not partake.
I'd just like to say Europe is large and varied. Hence me saying "exceptions". If you feel your European country would be an exception, then go ahead, feel that way. And I hope you're right honestly. I have a few countries that I feel are doing their best to deal with racial inequalities, and I can count those on one hand.
But let's not say Europe is as a whole is good when it comes to racial discrimination. It isn't.
But let's not say Europe is as a whole is good when it comes to racial discrimination. It isn't.
This is it.
America has problems that have been built up over decades and allowed to fester over centuries — people need to end this idea that they can be repaired inside of 4-8 year stretch. I've personally always believed that to "fix" what's broken in America is going to take a solid generation of continued work and you'd have to be looking at 2 consecutive presidents with a joint plan over 4 terms to pull it off.
Bonus opinion : as a Brit, I think we have a long way to go at sorting our own problems before we start pointing fingers at the state of the US. The huge amount of sway the right leaning press have and the default political state of the country have a lot to be desired. We've got our own work cut out for us and I'm think we're gonna need a similar time frame to get the country back to where it should be after Brexit.
Who has claimed this though? Like, I completely don't understand the need for this whataboutism, mod-condoned or not. Has anyone in this thread claimed that it is? Has the study claimed so or anyone taking part in that study? Where is this defensiveness coming from?
To make a more general point, not just about the post I quoted:
Neither the study nor the Guardian article are even about racism or any kind of actual social issues beyond some very abstract notion of "division" within the American populace. And honestly you don't even need that to call a political system "broken". It's also not all about finger-pointing, hence the whole thing about "fear" in the thread title.
All of this is about foreign politics (the name of the authors of the study might be a hint), not American domestic politics, as much as some might pretend the study and people ITT are talking about the latter -- because how could you not be totally interested in American domestic politics, especially because it's so greatly relevant to Europe in all of its minute details?
All questions are about things like trustworthiness w.r.t. adhering to agreements, the possibility of getting drawn into armed conflicts, or economic policies. And I'm sorry to say, but no European country has torpedoed important multilateral agreements quite as much as the US. And no, I'm not adding "in the last four years" to that sentence. The only question you could argue is about domestic policy is if Biden is able to "fix" the "divisions", and that's as generic as it can get.
"But racism in Europe!" is not just whataboutism, it's also completely off-topic. It's not what the study is concerned with. The US could be a diverse utopia (well, a divided diverse utopia with a broken political system to make the first question make sense, but still) and the reactions could still be the same if they acted the same w.r.t. the Paris climate accord, the Iran deal, or trying to have Europe align in foreign policy through economic policy. And I honestly don't understand how that wrong understanding of the study has made it into a staff post.