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Guardian: Majority of Europeans fear Biden unable to fix 'broken' US
- Thread starter SilentPanda
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Many of those countries realize that if they had America's two-party-non-coalition-every-state-gets-two-senators-redistricting-done-by-political-actors-electoral-college-determines-the-president system, they'd be just as screwed and it's the guardrails in their own system that's prevented their own far right parties, who have been gaining in popularity, from actually getting and holding onto the levers of power the way Republicans managed in the US.
Way I always saw it, Trump was like putting a gun to your own head and resting your finger on the trigger. And the most important thing in the WORLD is taking the finger off the trigger. Getting him out of office? That's what that is.
Best case scenario, the new government puts the gun on the floor. But it doesn't get rid of it. It can't. We are locked in here and that gun can never, ever go away. So we fight, and give ourselves hope, for as long as we can.
I think that's ultimately our story. Endurance until the end, whenever that may be. And I hope it's not for a long, long time.
Sorry it's a bit of an insensitive analogy, but it's the best I got. We would not have survived the second term. And we have to make sure it can never happen.
Best case scenario, the new government puts the gun on the floor. But it doesn't get rid of it. It can't. We are locked in here and that gun can never, ever go away. So we fight, and give ourselves hope, for as long as we can.
I think that's ultimately our story. Endurance until the end, whenever that may be. And I hope it's not for a long, long time.
Sorry it's a bit of an insensitive analogy, but it's the best I got. We would not have survived the second term. And we have to make sure it can never happen.
Agreed that the system itself seems to have broken down in the US with levers of power being so entrenched. We will see what Biden can accomplish with both house and senate though. Last time democrats held it, we passed as close a form of universal healthcare as we could at the time, trending in the right direction.
I just find it rich when Europeans look down on US right wing nationalism as some uniquely American problem when Le Pen in France had a decent showing/Boris Johnson in England as a wannabe trump, as well Germany's flirting with their far right national parties as recently as last year. Couple that with actual right wing nightmares like Hungary/Poland and Europe doesn't look quite like the moral ground it thinks it has.
I agree with that general notion. For one because Trump in my opinion was merely a symptom but not the cause of the many current (systematic) problem the U.S. is facing. European countries face many of the same issues, but they do seem much more pronounced in the U.S.
It would take quite a few presidents to steer the ship in the right direction.
But if anything the last election demonstrated just how divided the population still is.
It would take quite a few presidents to steer the ship in the right direction.
But if anything the last election demonstrated just how divided the population still is.
Personally, I feel the democrats will be able to "fix" a lot of stuff.
That's not really the issue though. The issue is there's a high probability of another complete maniac being elected and wrecking everything again.
America is now an unreliable partner, and will be treated as such. And I don't think there's any fixing that tbh.
That's not really the issue though. The issue is there's a high probability of another complete maniac being elected and wrecking everything again.
America is now an unreliable partner, and will be treated as such. And I don't think there's any fixing that tbh.
The US has always been a negative influence on the world, even long before Trump. The only positive thing the US could do at this point would be to split up into individual states and give up their soft power over the rest of the world, so that we might be allowed to figure shit out on our own. The democrats are not going to fix shit, they'll just try to save their imperialist empire and hope they'll come out on top in the unrest that the next decades will inevitably bring.
A couple things; who here in this thread is perpetuating the notion that Europe is some idealized utopia? There are developments going on in the US that are happening here in Europe (the Netherlands in my case) as well. That are worrying me. For example how susceptible people are to the misinformation spread through social media, and how that's causing a divide and gives new aspects to the lure of the far right. And how asshole politicians abuse that, and get away with it.
That divide is fortunately lessened by quite a few countries here having a multi party system. Speaking for the Netherlands again; it makes perfect sense to be economically right here, without having to vote for Wilders' racist ass PVV or Baudet's alt right FVD. You can just vote for the center right VVD if you don't like the lefts politics. And the VVD is all for gay marriage, pro science and completely pro choice. They're 'just' money grabbing, corrupt assholes that are destroying the Dutch social security in favor of corporations. But still.
And lastly, could you show some figures of how far right parties are actually gaining in popularity? I've been watching this for quite a while now. And in current polls PVV and FVD have 15 percent of the votes. That was 14 percent in 2017. 10 percent in 2012, but 15 percent back in 2010. So at about 15 percent it's much higher than I'd like, but it's also pretty stable.
Discussion guidelines
Official Staff Communication
This is a feature written for a UK/EU audience and badged as part of a series of articles with a pan-European angle. As such it takes an outside view of the US. However, we are a multinational board, and the rise of far right extremism is not unique to the US as it has been a problem across a large swath of the western world. Sneering at it as entertainment from overseas is not helpful, insightful or conducive to discussion. Please stay on topic and avoid sweeping generalisations. Thanks.
The Netherlands has the same problem with right nationalism. The PVV was second during the last election and has been up in the polls ever since. The next elections are in March and I'm afraid that they might exceed their current poll numbers. The cabinet also resigned last week and the biggest party in the coalition is slowly falling in the polls.
Opinion polling for the 2021 Dutch general election - Wikipedia
When 74,000,000+ people actively want to break something over and over and over, one old man can only do so much to glue it back together. Also I don't think we have enough people really interested in making the big systemic changes we need (if they're even possible).
Why is the UK more pro-EU than many of the European countries in the EU?! I am confused...Some interesting graphs in the original study I'd like to highlight (but the whole study is well worth reading):
The notion in the Guardian article about Poland and Hungary in this question is pretty misleading. "Neither" is actually the biggest block for Poland and nearly as big as "(strongly) disagree" for Hungary. The latter being bigger than "(strongly) agree" is true for the Netherlands as well, but I guess that doesn't fit the narrative.
Also, that Germany result is quite something.
Poland and Hungary be like, "LMAO you wanna see a real broken system?"
Really interesting how strong the "Europe" block is in the UK and how different the results are Europe-wide.
These two should really worry American policy makers. Even in Poland, more people want to stay neutral in a conflict against Russia. And I don't think the risk of invasion is a big part of that.
I guess this is unsurprising and also something that tech giants might have had a bigger role in than Trump, to be quite honest.
Some fun for the end. See, dear Frenchmen? We actually do like you!
Anti-EU sentiment holds a very, very, marginal plurality in the UK.
Anti-European sentiment is by far in the minority in the UK.
Sadly those views get massively over-amplified by our press and politicians.
As above, The EU =/= Europe.
The majority in the UK love Europe, and are extremely pro-European.
The UK also has a marginal plurality opposed to The EU, which is a specific and wholly separate thing to the much wider concept of Europe in the minds of many in the UK.
I am heartened by the graphic showing France and Germany consider each other most important.
I was reading James Murdoch putting the boot in to the media (including Fox) this morning for the mess in the United States as well. The fairness doctrine or some modern equivalent needs to come back. There needs to be robust consequence for the mis-use of social media.
Real change means people waking up and admitting they've been taken in by con-men, and the innate desire to protect the ego makes that a very hard thing to do. Events like Jan 6 do make it easier for people to draw a line and back out of the cult, but when you have the same characters popping up and trying to change reality and place the blame on others, that effect is diminished.
As such I agree with this sentiment. I think the next four years stand to be better, but he's got a hell of a job on his hands to turn it around. I don't think it can be done in 4 years without addressing the vested interests and corruption that are swirling at the pit of its origin.
People really need to hear and absorb this:
I was reading James Murdoch putting the boot in to the media (including Fox) this morning for the mess in the United States as well. The fairness doctrine or some modern equivalent needs to come back. There needs to be robust consequence for the mis-use of social media.
Real change means people waking up and admitting they've been taken in by con-men, and the innate desire to protect the ego makes that a very hard thing to do. Events like Jan 6 do make it easier for people to draw a line and back out of the cult, but when you have the same characters popping up and trying to change reality and place the blame on others, that effect is diminished.
As such I agree with this sentiment. I think the next four years stand to be better, but he's got a hell of a job on his hands to turn it around. I don't think it can be done in 4 years without addressing the vested interests and corruption that are swirling at the pit of its origin.
People really need to hear and absorb this:
The Netherlands has the same problem with right nationalism. The PVV was second during the last election and has been up in the polls ever since. The next elections are in March and I'm afraid that they might exceed their current poll numbers. The cabinet also resigned last week and the biggest party in the coalition is slowly falling in the polls.
Opinion polling for the 2021 Dutch general election - Wikipedia
en.m.wikipedia.org
At the same time, Wilders has proven himself an unreliable coalition partner in the past and few parties are extremely eager to work with him. Which is a guardrail in and of itself since it means that if a sizable part of the population doesn't want him in power, the other parties will be incentivized to form a coalition without him and the only way he'd be able to force himself into power would be to win a majority (rather than a plurality) of the votes, which is extremely unlikely to happen.
Oh, sure, that's definitely a part of it, but I'm still surprised. Maybe not about a lack of Anti-European sentiment, but more so about a lack of pro-American sentiment (or the relative size of each one), if that makes any sense?
It may just be my personal perception, but I'd say the UK has a bit of a reputation on the continent of being much farther out on the Atlantic than it geographically is, even culturally. I mean, even the Xbox sells there!
And that's not just meant as a joke. Of course everyone saw what happened when Trump visited the UK, but I guess they're still seen as the closest to the US on the continent, or at least in Western Europe.
Also, of course I'm happy that I'm apparently wrong about how much UK citizens feel as European, even outside the EU.
No shit, it's Joe Biden. You won't be able to fix the US by coddling republicans / racists / fascists.
"That's not who we are", etc etc. Stop it, that's not going to fix shit. Yes that's exactly who you are, now own it and try to get it right.
"That's not who we are", etc etc. Stop it, that's not going to fix shit. Yes that's exactly who you are, now own it and try to get it right.
And you raise a valid point but the thing is, those countries aren't superpowers and aren't presenting themselves as the influencial pioneer/leader of democracy much like how the US is. For years the United States has promoted and marketed itself as not only a advocate for democracy but also a saviour to the world.
To the world, The United States is the textbook representation of a democracy. It is the only nation that many democratic nations like Poland/Hungary/Germany/France as well as non-democratic nations with democractic-driven political parties look to not just for support but influence and validation in their cause. It is vital for the US to set a good example based on the message that it is projecting to the world that democracy = good. Sadly, it has not been doing a good/believable job for many years. And because of this, other nations either begin to realise that USA (and democracy) isn't working or other superpowers (China and Russia) got things right about rejecting (or faking) democracy to get to their success superpower status level.
And given the influencial nature of the US to the world, some might argue that the acceleration of far right politics succeeding is because of Trump. It's not to say that Trump started the movement but it perhaps validated them in many nations abroad given that the if it's acceptable in the US (as the model of democracy) then it is the right direction.
Yes it is rich that other nations also have right-wing leaders so they can't point the finger at the US but that doesn't mean the US didn't mess up big time. And Trump coming into power is only a fraction of the US slowly chipping away at its influencial "We most promote democracy to the world" mantra that has been going on for many many years.
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Why is this on Biden? GOP is causing the problems. They need to walk back the "stop the steal" nonsense. They need to return to reality. That's the "fix".
The re-framing and suppression of Black Lives Matters, the reluctance to even slightly inconvenience Big Tech, and the Capitol insurrection make me very pessimistic.
Also pessimistic about this thread getting derailed by meaningless whataboutism.
Also pessimistic about this thread getting derailed by meaningless whataboutism.
Yeah, Biden won't be able to do a damn thing if and when Republicans decide to overturn the next election that doesn't go their way. I don't think America will exist as a democracy the next time Republicans hold both chambers of Congress.
The UK and USA are two nations divided by a common language.
Culturally we are bound to one another by the same ties that drove us apart in the first place, you might say it's a very special relationship.
The US never lived up to this, it's just taken a while for the citizens of other countries to realised they were being lied to.
Not only did Trump's victory noticeably embolden the right in other countries, but the US has played a large role in proliferating the current playbook.
It's had a good run. The current US system of government is the oldest in the world, most European countries would have long since collapsed and rebuilt by now.
America elected a man with a failing brain who was first known for being famous on television. And then they did it again in 2016.
No country should trust the US if we're so haphazard on vision. Every time a Republican takes office, it's a war on democratic norms. I reflect deeply on Cornel West's remarks about America in a state of decline and collapse, and I genuinely do not believe it can be corrected. Any time we make progress, the public can just as easily put in a conservative to ruin it all again.
Every Republican POTUS this century has made the country and the international scene objectively worse. It's the operating system of the party. How can you "fix" this?
No country should trust the US if we're so haphazard on vision. Every time a Republican takes office, it's a war on democratic norms. I reflect deeply on Cornel West's remarks about America in a state of decline and collapse, and I genuinely do not believe it can be corrected. Any time we make progress, the public can just as easily put in a conservative to ruin it all again.
Every Republican POTUS this century has made the country and the international scene objectively worse. It's the operating system of the party. How can you "fix" this?
As a Canadian, the fact that so many americans voted for him AGAIN in 2020 was worse than 2016 from an outside perspective.
In 2016, you could make a (weak) case for frustration with old style politics and need for change. That Trump was making his show to win and would not be as bad as people think once becoming president. Even Obama said "this job changes you".
Of course it didn't happen.
In 2020, no excuses. None.
In 2016, you could make a (weak) case for frustration with old style politics and need for change. That Trump was making his show to win and would not be as bad as people think once becoming president. Even Obama said "this job changes you".
Of course it didn't happen.
In 2020, no excuses. None.
The European far right has made marginal gains in popularity directly on the back of America's multiple failed wars in the Middle East and North Africa over almost 2 decades now, which have sent multiple refugee waves into Europe, which the likes of Hillary Clinton have deemed that Europe should simply deal with, including the resulting terrorism, racism and hate crimes which inevitably drive recruitment and support for fascists. So maybe if this bullshit didn't have bipartisan support in America, Europe wouldn't be left to deal with the inevitable fallout of your dying empire's increasingly desperate attempts to remain the global hegemon.
If we have learned anything in the last few months is that the US is beyond fixing.
Maybe not in 10 years, but it's inevitable. American hegemony is on its last legs.
If he governs in line with his political career so far then I don't have much faith in Biden. He's a corporate democrat who also wrote most of the Patriot Act. I hope I'm wrong though.
This research really isn't surprising honestly.
Internationally Trump has been a disaster and will take years to repair that damage. He's shit on Europe, his Middle Eastern allies (excluding Israel) and his Asian allies.
To undo Trump's damage internationally will take years and crucially there's no guarantee the next Republican president won't rip that all up again like Trump did.
The UK and USA are more different than you make out.
Internationally Trump has been a disaster and will take years to repair that damage. He's shit on Europe, his Middle Eastern allies (excluding Israel) and his Asian allies.
To undo Trump's damage internationally will take years and crucially there's no guarantee the next Republican president won't rip that all up again like Trump did.
The UK and USA are more different than you make out.
Yes. It can be said that US's strategy to promote democracy was merely a move to push influence as opposed to "making the world a better place" and that - in reality - the US never actually was a model of a democracy in the first place. And with the mainstream reach of the internet giving out unfilitered/unbiased news/viewpoints, it has slowly become a wide-known fact that the US being a prime example of a successful functioning democracy (coupled with the fallacy of "The American Dream") was all a lie.
Nope - wouldn't trust America at all right now. Growing up I dreamed of the idea of moving to America.
As I've got older and more life wise not only do I believe your political system is broken but your social welfare system, healthcare, employee law (do I need to go on?) is broken too.
I'll stay this side of the pond thanks!
As I've got older and more life wise not only do I believe your political system is broken but your social welfare system, healthcare, employee law (do I need to go on?) is broken too.
I'll stay this side of the pond thanks!
User Banned (1 Day): Inflammatory Generalization
Hating the US is basically taught to a large chunk of Europeans from a young age so no surprise there.
i always love how its the Brits who try to play some moral authority as if their politicians are any better but I guess that's why Brexit happened.
i always love how its the Brits who try to play some moral authority as if their politicians are any better but I guess that's why Brexit happened.
Where in Europe is that supposed to be?
In Germany it's the complete opposite.
Yeah, from a foreign perspective, the fact an additional 10 million+ more Americans voted for Trump in 2020 compared to 2016, even with a relatively safe and vanilla Biden alternative, is shocking. Something is very broken.
Here's the problem and I can agree with Europe. What happens if in the next 4 to 8 years, we get lax with our voting as Democrats and ended up electing another Trump? But except this time, he/she actually knows how to manipulate the system wisely?
This country is split down the middle and we have to do something about that. We can't keep doing 8 years of good things and throwing that down the drain for another 8 to 16 years afterwards destroying our economy and our leadership worldwide. It is just shows that it's unhealthy system with citizens that are split down the middle.
This is going to be an issue that may not be able to be resolved without some sort of crisis in the US, if it's not Civil War then ridiculous restricted laws to stop fascism.
This isn't about always the other European countries are having similar issues as well, you're talkin about a world leader who's direction is not stable and could easily destroy other countries economy that works with that country.
As of right now I really wouldn't want the CCP to become the world leader. But at the same time, Europe and the United States and other countries can easily stop that right now by stop Manufacturing in China and move it elsewhere such as Mexico.
This country is split down the middle and we have to do something about that. We can't keep doing 8 years of good things and throwing that down the drain for another 8 to 16 years afterwards destroying our economy and our leadership worldwide. It is just shows that it's unhealthy system with citizens that are split down the middle.
This is going to be an issue that may not be able to be resolved without some sort of crisis in the US, if it's not Civil War then ridiculous restricted laws to stop fascism.
This isn't about always the other European countries are having similar issues as well, you're talkin about a world leader who's direction is not stable and could easily destroy other countries economy that works with that country.
As of right now I really wouldn't want the CCP to become the world leader. But at the same time, Europe and the United States and other countries can easily stop that right now by stop Manufacturing in China and move it elsewhere such as Mexico.
Yup correct.
For a country that strives everyone to "Work hard and make money!", how is it that the government doesn't give a fuck about statutory maternity/paternity leave, statutory paid holidays, statutory sick leave or any form of protection to its valued employed citizens and leave all those responsibilites to individual companies who's main priority is to make profit (and therefore exploit their workers if needs be). Unions got painted as a boogeyman and I guess US citizens were paid a more-than-sufficient living wage between the 50s and 80s to justify being taken advantage of while believing the whole "Workers/social rights are bad becuase that's CoMmUNiSm" bullshit that was thrown around.
England, France, Holland for sure. Obviously is not everyone but there is a clear cultural distaste for Americans there. Not that it's unearned!