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jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,653
He has no intention of finishing. That's as good as a guarantee you'll ever get in life. He does not want to and he does not care.
I'm not sure his intentions even matter. There's zero chance of this series every being finished by GRRM, whether he wants to or not. I doubt anyone on this world believes that's a possibility, except maybe GRRM himself.

So what if WOTW actually comes out? What about ADOS? And who in their mind thinks this story can be wrapped up in only two more books? There's no chance whatsoever of ASOIAF ever getting to the finish line. So frankly people losing their temper over WOTW is a total waste of time.
 
Oct 28, 2017
6,119
I'm not sure his intentions even matter. There's zero chance of this series every being finished by GRRM, whether he wants to or not. I doubt anyone on this world believes that's a possibility, except maybe GRRM himself.

So what if WOTW actually comes out? What about ADOS? And who in their mind thinks this story can be wrapped up in only two more books? There's no chance whatsoever of ASOIAF ever getting to the finish line. So frankly people losing their temper over WOTW is a total waste of time.

Oh there's a chance it will get to the finish line. But not with GRRM writing it.
 

weblaus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
933
Oh there's a chance it will get to the finish line. But not with GRRM writing it.

That it would need someone to act against his stated will, as he's said he won't let anyone else do so. To my knowledge that stance hasn't changed (yet) and I'm very skeptical it will.

As have been mentioned before, that's the very big difference to Jordan who made every effort possible to get his story told to the end knowing he couldn't do it himself anymore. While I've lost interest in WoT midway through, I definitely do respect that.
 
Oct 28, 2017
6,119
That it would need someone to act against his stated will, as he's said he won't let anyone else do so. To my knowledge that stance hasn't changed (yet) and I'm very skeptical it will.

As have been mentioned before, that's the very big difference to Jordan who made every effort possible to get his story told to the end knowing he couldn't do it himself anymore. While I've lost interest in WoT midway through, I definitely do respect that.

Sure, he won't approve of it. But when he's dead, he won't get a say. There's a chance after that. Then again, we got an ending already. The only one we'll ever get.
 

Ctrl Alt Del

Banned
Jun 10, 2018
4,312
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
It sucks as a fan that his work is not complete, but I'm grateful for the hours upon hours of joy I've got from reading his work in ASOIAF. It'll come out eventually or it won't, but what's already done won't go away.

And yeah, interest on the universe has waned in the last years, personally, but I'm not fooling myself: I'll still read the shit of it.
 

Pascal

▲ Legend ▲
The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
10,228
Parts Unknown
This series will never be finished. Just accept it and move on to something new. If TWoW comes out eventually then cool, I'll definitely read it. But if it doesn't come out then I'm fine with that as well because I've got a bunch of new shit that I'm into to fill that gap. I'm fine with both possibilities.

I really don't feel like GRRM owes me anything. Honestly, I'm grateful for the books that he has released because I came to the realization while reading them that I had a taste for dark fantasy and that opened up an entirely new world for me. If he ever releases TWoW, I'll be there for it. And if not, then I'm grateful anyways. I've just moved on from this series.
 

captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,990
Houston
Consumers acting like creators owe them projects is one of the most cursed things.
god, im so tired of this argument in everyone one of these threads.


literally no one has claimed he us anything. But stop yanking everyones chain about it. THATs the problem. Every few months he releases another blog saying he has written or had to rewrite or had other projects and whatever. Its been 9 years, the book ain't coming out.
 

Sunster

The Fallen
Oct 5, 2018
10,007
sxkOcRSgmPc_K1O5Ob2XV89zjplRWvHW1H22FmOOQsA.jpg
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,458
god, im so tired of this argument in everyone one of these threads.


literally no one has claimed he [owes] us anything.

Might need to re-read this thread, and the countless others, because "literally no one" is actually a ton of people.

But stop yanking everyones chain about it. THATs the problem. Every few months he releases another blog saying he has written or had to rewrite or had other projects and whatever. Its been 9 years, the book ain't coming out.

So he should just stop providing updates on what he's doing on his personal blog that people choose to keep up with?

Maybe the onus is instead on those people to stop paying attention, or take his words well-salted by his self-acknowledged unreliability. GRRM isn't choosing to make a press release by keeping a journal, something he's done... well, since people actually kept blogs, lol.
 

Deleted member 52442

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 24, 2019
10,774
hot take: authors do owe people if they sell a book as part of a series

its not like a binding contract, but it is definitely something
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,306
hot take: authors do owe people if they sell a book as part of a series

its not like a binding contract, but it is definitely something
I kind of agree tbh. Readers are responsible for his success, I won't say he categorically owes them exactly A Specific Thing, but... give us something, man ;_;
 

Deleted member 70788

Jun 2, 2020
9,620
hot take: authors do owe people if they sell a book as part of a series

its not like a binding contract, but it is definitely something
I agree...mostly.

There are layers to it.

If an artist was JUST an author, released their works when they were done, never promised anything, and just put them out and didn't really engage in the commercial pursuit or success of it, I'd say that person is just creating for arts sake and ... well that is that. They don't give a shit, they're just doing what they love - creating the story at their own pace.

But something is enflamed when you sell your art intentionally into the consumeristic sphere to the degree GRRM did, then you blog about it repeatedly and promise progress over and over, but don't deliver. You go to events upon events talking about your art and the arc of the stories you are writing, people are hanging on your every word.

And then you don't deliver...

People who say "GRRM doesn't owe anyone anything" are being either unintentionally or intentionally naive. The whole basis of his story and why people enjoy it is the assumption that it's going somewhere. Frankly, if he doesn't finish it, I don't think I'd even consider him a great storyteller. Asking questions and building a world of mystery is a lot easier than sticking the landing. It seems like a lot of "can't fail if you don't finish" going on.
 

ScoobsJoestar

Member
May 30, 2019
4,071
hot take: authors do owe people if they sell a book as part of a series

its not like a binding contract, but it is definitely something

It's not even that hot of a take. I wouldn't have bought the first book in a series if I thought it wouldn't get finished. Rothfuss specially promised pre release to get all 3 books out within a year of each other because they were already written. Which, hah. I fell for that.

I'll also note that Martin and Rothfuss not delivering(and for a long time just radio silencing the audience) had a big effect on smaller fantasy writers because readers stopped reading their series until it was completed out of "well, what if it doesn't finish?" But smaller authors generally always get their shit done because they can't afford to not finish their series. Not finishing them is a privilege of the mega successful. Some colleagues of mine were affected pretty badly by this effect around 5 years ago, though now it's mostly gone-ish.
 

RolandGunner

Member
Oct 30, 2017
8,520
Goerge shouldn't have had to cut the ending of a book and condense some of those dany jon and tyrion chapters in dance

No matter what you think of the endless who owes what argument, not resolving the main plot point in a book when the series is massively off track is shitty. There was a ton of fat in the Essos chapters that could have been cut, which the editor even pointed out, which would have opened up space to resolve that storyline.
 

YukiroCTX

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,994
Rothfuss specially promised pre release to get all 3 books out within a year of each other because they were already written. Which, hah. I fell for that.
This one I remember. I can't believe it's been 10 years. Even released around the same time as Dance too. I think this one annoys me a bit more because of the initial promise, I could kind of understand if the scope got larger than initially thought and delays happened but waiting 5 years I could be patient but 10 years is way too much even for someone not really following it. Also followed this one from the start so less attachment to ASOIAF and at least there's 5 books, in the process some main character perspectives have ended at the least. No surprise about colleagues being affected because even if they only account for a very small proportion, they're some of the most popular books so the mindset is they never want to start something that will never be complete. At some point it becomes like vaporware talk or the TV show that never got more episodes after a break (not officially cancelled)
 

4Tran

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,531
People have said it multiple times but it's obvious everything has gotten out of hand for him and he has no clue what to do with his story and characters.

Maybe he's more like D&D than people think. They got to the Red Wedding just fine, but then they had no plan for the rest lol.
I think that it's even worse than that: GRRM does have an idea of where he wants his characters to eventually end up. The problem is that he just writes and hopes that they end up in the right spots. It's a horrid way to write complex stories like ASOIAF and it's no surprise that it doesn't work. He's been putting a lot of effort into the how of writing and I think that GRRM has managed to improve his prose. But doing that instead of putting effort into what to write in the first place means that he just ends up with a lot of nicely written trash. And that's pretty much what the last couple of books feel like.
 

ScoobsJoestar

Member
May 30, 2019
4,071
This one I remember. I can't believe it's been 10 years. Even released around the same time as Dance too. I think this one annoys me a bit more because of the initial promise, I could kind of understand if the scope got larger than initially thought and delays happened but waiting 5 years I could be patient but 10 years is way too much even for someone not really following it. Also followed this one from the start so less attachment to ASOIAF and at least there's 5 books, in the process some main character perspectives have ended at the least. No surprise about colleagues being affected because even if they only account for a very small proportion, they're some of the most popular books so the mindset is they never want to start something that will never be complete. At some point it becomes like vaporware talk or the TV show that never got more episodes after a break (not officially cancelled)

Yeah honestly Rothfuss disappoints me more than Martin, because his whole deal about "oh you know the books are done so you can buy this one with peace of mind" is literally false advertisement.

Fortunately smaller authors started to recover, thanks to the very dedicated fan base that formed around discovering new novels and supporting smaller authors.
 

Imperfected

Member
Nov 9, 2017
11,737
I kind of agree tbh. Readers are responsible for his success, I won't say he categorically owes them exactly A Specific Thing, but... give us something, man ;_;

I would say the specific thing owed is honesty, but then I don't think he's even being honest with himself, so...

I've read long-running series where the author has called it quits because he wants to work on something else, because the work just isn't in him anymore to finish that sort of story. I've been okay with it, because they've been forthright about it. That's all I really expect out of anyone: just be honest, if you hit writer's block and have no idea when you're going to finish (or if you can even finish at all), just say it, don't keep saying, "For realsies I got it this time!" again and again and again like a college student stringing along his team members on a project.

He could say tomorrow that he has no idea how to end the story, that having become rich and famous he doesn't have the same connection with the grit and grime that made the story work, and he wants to focus on writing breezier, more fun faire instead. I'd be fine with that. He could also say that seeing the story beats he planned play out in the show broke his confidence, and he doesn't want to move forward until he has a different idea he's comfortable with; "I don't know if I'll be able to finish" is a valid answer.

These continual claims to have pushed out endless chapters are just tiring, though. The book would have to be hundreds of thousands of pages long to contain all the progress he's claimed to have made on it, at this point.
 

The Watcher

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,349
He should just hand Stephen King his notes and manuscripts and we'll probably have both books by the summer. I swear King writes novels like they were going out of style.
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,458
He could say tomorrow that he has no idea how to end the story, that having become rich and famous he doesn't have the same connection with the grit and grime that made the story work, and he wants to focus on writing breezier, more fun faire instead. I'd be fine with that. He could also say that seeing the story beats he planned play out in the show broke his confidence, and he doesn't want to move forward until he has a different idea he's comfortable with; "I don't know if I'll be able to finish" is a valid answer.

These continual claims to have pushed out endless chapters are just tiring, though. The book would have to be hundreds of thousands of pages long to contain all the progress he's claimed to have made on it, at this point.

What if he does know how to end it, and that isn't the issue?

What if he has the same connection to the story as ever (after all, he's written hundreds of pages of material for Fire & Blood, and TWOIAF), and that isn't the issue?

He's on record as saying writing has gotten harder as he's gotten more elderly. He's on record explaining his (terrible) writing process. He's on record explaining his list of commitments and hobbies that, whether fans like it or not, have always extended beyond 'writing ASOIAF 24/7.'

What if his long-running explanations of what characters he's writing in TWOW at any given time over the last 10 years have all been entirely true -- he's just had to overhaul things again and again because he's a perfectionist, and the world is so stupidly intricate that these rewrites are mega time-consuming? (There is of course the popular speculation that he had a near-complete TWOW in 2015-2016, but wasn't satisfied with it for whatever reason, and scrapped a lot of it.)

What if the reaction to the show's ending didn't faze him that much, because (1) he envisions his being fairly different overall, save for a few major tidbits he gave D&D, all of which we know, and (2) he was just as disillusioned with the show and its leadership, but obviously can't say anything because of his relationship with HBO (we already know he and D&D had a falling out well before the show ended)?

Pretty sure he's said he wrote twice as many manuscript pages for ADWD over the entire process than were in the final product, and the final product was already gargantuan. TWOW is, one imagines, probably even bigger than that, with even more trial-and-error.

Overall, I don't doubt that he's being honest. And while he keeps his cards close to his chest about the specific causes of his struggle (because why would he spoil people?), I don't interpret that as him cagily procrastinating writing. I believe he writes quite a lot; his process just sucks, he's old, and the story is an unwieldy behemoth. What I'll never understand are the people who want him to prostrate himself and proclaim he'll never finish before he dies -- talk about morbid. Or those who want him to 'admit he's given up' when it's abundantly clear he hasn't.

If you're tired by his progress updates... stop paying attention to them? It'll be out when it's out regardless. He's not making press releases stringing people along; he's posting diary entries on his personal blog, complete with mood emojis.
 

TheJollyCorner

The Fallen
Nov 7, 2017
9,453
Does this man get paid by the hour/day/year?
Cheezus!


yeah, yeah... I know he probably already has more money than he knows what to do with :D
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,458

Seems like it, yeah.

D&D basically weren't playing ball with him creatively. Weren't listening to what he told them was going to be important, were trying to rush the show as much as possible rather than doing more seasons like him and HBO wanted.

After a certain point Martin stopped writing for the show and as far as we know didn't meet with them further beyond the "3 major bullet points" (which were Shireen burning, Hodor's fate, and Bran as King) meeting years before the show ended.
 

anamika

Member
May 18, 2018
2,622
What if he does know how to end it, and that isn't the issue?

What if he has the same connection to the story as ever (after all, he's written hundreds of pages of material for Fire & Blood, and TWOIAF), and that isn't the issue?

He's on record as saying writing has gotten harder as he's gotten more elderly. He's on record explaining his (terrible) writing process. He's on record explaining his list of commitments and hobbies that, whether fans like it or not, have always extended beyond 'writing ASOIAF 24/7.'

What if his long-running explanations of what characters he's writing in TWOW at any given time over the last 10 years have all been entirely true -- he's just had to overhaul things again and again because he's a perfectionist, and the world is so stupidly intricate that these rewrites are mega time-consuming? (There is of course the popular speculation that he had a near-complete TWOW in 2015-2016, but wasn't satisfied with it for whatever reason, and scrapped a lot of it.)

Sorry, but all these explanations would make him a terrible writer and not the acclaimed one that his fans and he himself claim to be. This is why his gardener approach is pretty stupid. If he knows how to get to his ending, why is he rewriting again and again and again. Was AFfC and ADwD great because he took 5 and 6 years and is a perfectionist?

Let's recall that this was originally supposed to be a trilogy. Book one - WOT5K, Book two - Dance of dragons, Dany's invasion of Westeros, Book three - the war against the Others. We are still in BOOK ONE material!!! Dany has not even got to Westeros and it's doubtful if she will, even in TWoW because there's still so much plot left there for her to wind up. Do you see how nonsensical this is at this point? The guy has only finished 1/3rd of his story in nearly 3 decades.

He's just a bad writer. The story ballooned with all these new characters and side stories and travelogues while the main story stagnated and now he has no idea how to wind up the main story in two books. So he just keeps going back and rewriting and rewriting and no matter how much he rewrites there will still be a shit ton of story left to tell and he will need at minimum three more books.

That's why I find it hilarious when he compares himself to Tolkien and Dickens and Scott Fitzgerald. Those authors were actually good authors who completed full stories and and their legacy is well established. All GRRM will be known for is a story 1/3rd finished that was completed by a trash TV show.
 
OP
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BossAttack

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,949
Seems like it, yeah.

D&D basically weren't playing ball with him creatively. Weren't listening to what he told them was going to be important, were trying to rush the show as much as possible rather than doing more seasons like him and HBO wanted.

After a certain point Martin stopped writing for the show and as far as we know didn't meet with them further beyond the "3 major bullet points" (which were Shireen burning, Hodor's fate, and Bran as King) meeting years before the show ended.

At this point, I can't even blame D&D. Dude clearly has no idea where the story is going and expects them to just go long with his ramblings with no end in sight?
 

Deleted member 70788

Jun 2, 2020
9,620
On one hand, I think he's a great writer. On the other, someone who can't complete a story is a very poor storyteller. To brag about your capability of telling a story and compare yourself to the greats, but not be able to actually land the story you are telling is not very impressive.
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,458
He's just a bad writer.

lol. I have to doubt whether some of you have even read the books.

He's not remotely efficient anymore (and thus, might be considered 'bad') at the writing process, but his writing is excellent. But even the best writer would struggle with a story as incredibly complex with the thousands of moving parts that ASOIAF has.

The story ballooned with all these new characters and side stories and travelogues while the main story stagnated and now he has no idea how to wind up the main story in two books.

Some would say that some of the 'side stories' contain some of the best, most thematically incisive writing in the series. Wouldn't have the broken man speech without Brienne's travels.

GRRM clearly views the story as the journey and all the themes explored therein, rather than merely the overarching plot points.

That's why I find it hilarious when he compares himself to Tolkien and Dickens and Scott Fitzgerald. Those authors were actually good authors who completed full stories and and their legacy is well established. All GRRM will be known for is a story 1/3rd finished that was completed by a trash TV show.

When has he compared his quality to anyone? He draws parallels (e.g. 'how many children did Scarlett O'Hara have?").

Moreover, since when was Tolkien a remotely efficient writer either? Not all acclaimed writers are. It took Tolkien two decades to write LOTR, which is only slightly longer than ADWD alone. And he didn't finish his larger legendarium either -- his son had to pick up from his notes.

GRRM has finished plenty of smaller stories, so clearly he's a great writer if that's your arbitrary metric. The mainline ASOIAF series is not even close to all he has written.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,604
Seems like it, yeah.

D&D basically weren't playing ball with him creatively. Weren't listening to what he told them was going to be important, were trying to rush the show as much as possible rather than doing more seasons like him and HBO wanted.

After a certain point Martin stopped writing for the show and as far as we know didn't meet with them further beyond the "3 major bullet points" (which were Shireen burning, Hodor's fate, and Bran as King) meeting years before the show ended.
GRRM stopped writing for the show because it was taking up time that he wanted to spend writing TWOW instead, which I think he said himself on his blog at some point. I hadn't heard anything about D&D blackballing him on providing creative counsel, though I'd imagine if there was any friction there, it'd be owed to GRRM naturally wanting way more of his plot points/characters from the books in the show while D&D are trying to keep it (relatively) streamlined.

I do remember GRRM saying he wanted the show to go on for years more, but obviously he had a vested interest in not having the show pass him and beat him to the punch on his own ending, and of course HBO wanted it go for 10+ years because they didn't want to kill their golden goose.
 

Pluto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,416
Seems like it, yeah.

D&D basically weren't playing ball with him creatively. Weren't listening to what he told them was going to be important, were trying to rush the show as much as possible rather than doing more seasons like him and HBO wanted.

After a certain point Martin stopped writing for the show and as far as we know didn't meet with them further beyond the "3 major bullet points" (which were Shireen burning, Hodor's fate, and Bran as King) meeting years before the show ended.
I remember an early interview where he said he expected the show to do 2 seasons each for AFFC and ADWD. If that's what he thought the show should do it shouldn't suprise anyone that D&D's stopped playing ball creatively because that was a ludicrous idea, there's simply no way those books as written have enough content to produce 4 seasons of compelling tv. How do you stretch Jon's story over 4 years, what about Brienne or Tyrion? It would have been a disaster. The show didn't stick the landing but I really doubt listening to GRRM would have improved it because if he can't figure out the novels he can't guide the show either.
And I don't blame D&D for wanting to move in after a decade working on the show and if HBO truly wanted to continue they could have named new showrunners, they didn't, that's not on D&D.


They're not completely wrong though, if a writer can't finish the story they started they are not good. That doesn't mean GRRM is incapable of writing great prose or can't create compelling charcters, he has proven more than once that he can but being able to finish the story you started is an integral part of writing novels.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,604
I remember an early interview where he said he expected the show to do 2 seasons each for AFFC and ADWD. If that's what he thought the show should do it shouldn't suprise anyone that D&D's stopped playing ball creatively because that was a ludicrous idea, there's simply no way those books as written have enough content to produce 4 seasons of compelling tv. How do you stretch Jon's story over 4 years, what about Brienne or Tyrion? It would have been a disaster. The show didn't stick the landing but I really doubt listening to GRRM would have improved it because if he can't figure out the novels he can't guide the show either.
Yeah I think there's something to be said that, for all of the 'extra' material GRRM has written into the books -- whole characters and story beats that were just never present in the show -- he's still, more than 10 years later, trying to figure out how to make it all work together. No TV show can just go on break for a decade to figure out its story.
 

Deleted member 90924

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 29, 2021
821
Seems like it, yeah.

D&D basically weren't playing ball with him creatively. Weren't listening to what he told them was going to be important, were trying to rush the show as much as possible rather than doing more seasons like him and HBO wanted.

After a certain point Martin stopped writing for the show and as far as we know didn't meet with them further beyond the "3 major bullet points" (which were Shireen burning, Hodor's fate, and Bran as King) meeting years before the show ended.

This isn't completely true. While they clearly had a falling out, there wasn't as little input as this statement makes it out to be. GRRM has even said it both is and isn't his ending. There is a strong implication that the show mostly hit the end points of the major characters (See, https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.in...nds-winter-season-8-spoiler-a9301571.html?amp).

Those three major bullet points were not all he gave them, nor were they presented that way. D & D said they had a meeting where GRRM walked them through the plot and the characters through the ending and that in that they had 3 major surprises (which you correctly cited). That's a far cry from GRRM just giving them bullet points. I fully expect that the ending of the books, in the unlikely event we ever get A Dream of Spring, will be substantially similar to the shows ending. I also expect it will be much better and the path to get there will be more satisfying. For example, elements of Season 8 that are widely hated, like Danaerys' rapid heel turn, are already being developed in the books in a way the show never took the time to do.

I agree with the criticisms of D & D, I just think that based on what we know, they gave us GRRM's ending insomuch as they could have considering they never introduced so many characters from Feast/Dance. I just think we are kidding ourselves if we think it is going to be that different.
 

RocketKiss

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
4,691
The same people who rag about video game crunch will crucify GRRM. He, nor the process of producing a work of art, owe you shit.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,604
The same people who rag about video game crunch will crucify GRRM. He, nor the process of producing a work of art, owe you shit.
That is such a disingenuous comparison. GRRM works on his own time (clearly) with total ownership rights over what he's making and at great lucrative value to himself. It's not at all analogous to forcing thousands of people into working 80-hour weeks, giving up nights and weekends and sacrificing time with families, to push out a video game in the span of a couple years to mostly benefit whatever company they work for.

You're right that GRRM doesn't technically owe anyone anything, which itself is the difference between him and devs forced into crunch time: he can choose, they can't.
 

RocketKiss

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
4,691
That is such a disingenuous comparison. GRRM works on his own time (clearly) with total ownership rights over what he's making and at great lucrative value to himself. It's not at all analogous to forcing thousands of people into working 80-hour weeks, giving up nights and weekends and sacrificing time with families, to push out a video game in the span of a couple years to mostly benefit whatever company they work for.

You're right that GRRM doesn't technically owe anyone anything, which itself is the difference between him and devs forced into crunch time: he can choose, they can't.
Yes. He's not beholden to stock holders or anyone. Thus, he don't owe anyone shit. People on here care about 'crunch' because of the well-being and mental health of the workers, yet they will bully an old out of shape man who has the pressure, expectations and stress few could handle.
 

Calamari41

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,097
Honestly I've had so much time to come up with my own satisfying endings in my head that any more books released by GRRM will just be a bonus.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,604
Yes. He's not beholden to stock holders or anyone. Thus, he don't owe anyone shit.
yeah, so, comparing it to dev crunch is bullshit. There's no hypocrisy. It's not exploitative or personally harmful to the artist to expect a new book after 11 years. That seems like a pretty reasonable expectation to me!
 

Creamium

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,691
Belgium
It's increasingly more likely that the tv show will be the only ending to this saga we'll ever get and that's sad. Even if Winds comes out there's still at least one more whopper Martin has to write. And even then iirc he hinted at needing 7+ books.
 

RocketKiss

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
4,691
People bought his books with the understanding that they were buying into a series which would eventually be completed. So to an extent, yes, he does owe his readers a conclusion to the story.
Does the same apply for video games that promise sequels that never come to fruition?

anyway call us when any of you write one of the most beloved pieces of literature of the modern age, thousands of pages long, in less time than GRRM.
 

Deleted member 70788

Jun 2, 2020
9,620
Does the same apply for video games that promise sequels that never come to fruition?

anyway call us when any of you write one of the most beloved pieces of literature of the modern age, thousands of pages long, in less time than GRRM.
You are pretty unreasonably hostile.

Do you think people can't ever critique anything if they aren't as successful as what they are commenting on? What an elitist and dismissive perspective.
 

Enduin

You look 40
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,470
New York
At this point I would take a compromised and less perfect product that is complete than striving for perfection and getting nothing. It's George's baby but at some point enough is enough. If he or his publisher can't just commit to a date then there's no hope. A decade now on one book is quite excessive, having no hard boundaries does not seem like a good system for him and his style of continual rewrites. Nothing is ever perfect. It's pure folly to just let that go on unchecked.

It's simply not possible to finish the series at this point given his current trajectory and odds that 2 more books won't be enough to conclude things. And I don't particularly care for the idea of George having to spend an enormous amount of the rest of his life toiling away at finishing this series and having that specter of expectation and pressure from fans and himself to deliver and solidify his legacy.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,604
Does the same apply for video games that promise sequels that never come to fruition?

anyway call us when any of you write one of the most beloved pieces of literature of the modern age, thousands of pages long, in less time than GRRM.
This is funny given that many of the people in this thread have no doubt criticized D&D endlessly despite, last I checked, none of them also producing one of the most beloved, impressive, and insanely complicated television productions of the modern age. If you think criticism is contingent on being able to produce work of equal or greater value (and in the same medium no less), that then would pretty well silence basically every GoT detractor in the world!