Damn straight.
Greg is responsible for his mistakes and he's owning up to them. Boogie has nothing to do with this.
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
Greg Miller and Andrea Rene handwave Notch and PewDiePie racist, transphobic and anti-semitic behaviour (UP: GM and AR respond; see threadmarks)
- Thread starter LebGuns
- Start date
- Status
Greg is responsible for his mistakes and he's owning up to them. Boogie has nothing to do with this.
Maybe so and hey Greg can say it if he wants, but those personalities have nothing to do with Greg's redemption arc for Resetera given the two involved in the video were Notch and PDP.
Keep it relevant, not your laundry list of people you don't like that Greg has to condemn before you forgive him.
Asking Greg not to be chummy with people emboldening White supremacists and, instead, hold those people accountable = I am at the blade sharpening store.
"Be better to each other" isn't a bad advice at all, generally speaking. Only when the subject matter is something like PDP/Notch who have said and done bigoted stuff. Whenever the subject matter is something like that, then there aren't two people or sides who should treat each other better or meet in the middle. Only one should, because the other side is just a victim while other is entirely the aggressor. So it's the context that can make it sound bad. "Be better to each other" is advice we at Era could learn from, while having our mundane gaming discussions.
Last edited:
Hey man,
Just an outsiders perspective on this, I really feel this is an unfair reading. He's not one point even come close to defending in that post. Or made judgement on what side needs to be better.
I mean the guy is voluntarily apologising on a video game forum, I'm not sure what else he can do unless you guys want an eternal cycle of outrage.
Cause Greg's wanting to take a stance against bigots rings hollow and untrue when he buddy buddy's with someone like Boogie. Being Greg's number one fan must be tough when you perceive any criticism against him as an attack, but I've been talking about Boogie since shortly after this thread started. It's not "moving goal posts", we've been calling him out on failing to specify names since he first responded here.
Appreciate the response given Greg. You can't undo what happened, but at the very least you can acknowledge how it leaves folks feeling, more-so those who are directly affected by the abuse, appropriation, jokes etc and understand the impact you end up having. You have a voice, one that is greater than many others, and it means being very sure about what you say.
I believe that Greg is a nice dude trying to do the right thing. The fact that he's listening to many voices from PoC in this forum and recognizing his privilege is great.
I've only read the transcript of the Notch conversation and it mostly seems like Andrea was the one trying to weirdly defend Notch even thought she admits he makes "wacky" comments from time to time. I'd like hear her thoughts on all of this.
I've only read the transcript of the Notch conversation and it mostly seems like Andrea was the one trying to weirdly defend Notch even thought she admits he makes "wacky" comments from time to time. I'd like hear her thoughts on all of this.
Why were you talking about Boogie? I swear some of you have a quota for how many times you have to mention Boogie in an unrelated Resetera topic.
Notch and PDP were the two names involved in this.
I like how you call someone Greg's number one fan for simply asking you what I'm asking you to do which is remain relevant to the mistakes it's thought Greg has made, not air your own laundry list and state Greg has to take responsibility for it.
I'm far from being Greg's #1 fan and I don't appreciate the condescending tone. I've said it time and time again in this thread that he fuck up but also think the reaction to some here hasn't been very much overblown, especially after he gave what I think are two very good responses. We had people here the other day calling Greg, and I quote, "a subhuman shit-heel".
Anyway I'm still glad how all of this turned out and Greg being receptive and above all showing empathy. Good for him.
Rather than how to word the message, I'll ask you to consider some things, Greg. This is along the lines of privilege; not something you necessarily did wrong, but unfortunate reaities that you might want to consider and learn from.
I don't now about you, but there was a lot of rhetoric against things like affirmative action floating around when I was a kid. Things like the old snark of "why is there a Black History Month but no White History Month?" Now, I'm not white myself, so I think white supremacy is probably a danger to me; I don't think I was particularly racist as a kid and I think it was in my interest not to be. But I still bought into these messages for a time.
Black History Month exists because it's correcting a problem. History as taught by Europeans and their descendants have traditionally focused on white people - and white men more specifically - at the expense of buring the contributions of others. White history doesn't need highlighting because white history has been the norm.
The problematic message works because because it sounds good if you don't think about it critically. It seems like it's about equality, but it's not actually as fair as it sounds. It serves to maintain historical inequalities by burying the problems that exist in reality under an idealized image.
In the same way, some messages sound nice to the ear, but they aren't actually as benign as they appear to be.
If you've heard the terms "negative peace" versus "positive peace", they follow along similar lines. Negative peace is where there is no disruption. Positive peace is where there is no mistreatment, and so no need for anyone to cause a disruption. They both might sound good, but in one case, people are suffering in silence.
In the face of white supramacy, non-white people are endangered. In the face of misogyny, women are endangered. In the face of transphobia, trans people are endangered. "Be nice to each other" sounds like a good message. I think you intend it to be a good a message. But when malicious actors exist in society who abuse others, is it actually fair for it to be so general? What do you do when there are individuals who have no desire to listen to calls to be nice, and in fact, are willing to weaponize those calls as a way to silence those they intend to abuse?
If I'm not mistaken - I'm admittedly not personally familiar with your work - your product is your message. If people find you entertaining and come to listen to you, you're doing a good job. If they aren't interested and leave, you're doing a bad job. It's your responsibility to try to craft your message to try to gain the reaction you want. If you want people to have a certain idea of how you look at social issues, than that's also on you to think about how to craft your message to get the desired response.
I hope that helps, and again, thank you for listening and responding.
If you're not a fan of condescending tone, maybe don't use it to dismiss the concerns of others in the name of dunking on Era and attributing it to blood thirsty outrage for the sake of it.
User warned: Inflammatory commentary.
Did you turn around and high five Boogie after posting this
Not "for the sake of it" just somewhat misguided towards the wrong people.
I'm not the best at identifying concern trolling.
But this is some serious concern trolling.
Hmmm. Almost beautiful to see these posts back to back.
What a shitty ass response. Thank you for adding nothing to this discussion.
There's certainly an issue where any given discussion only has so much bandwidth, and there's enough ground to cover with the directly relevant names such that you won't necessarily get very far bringing up others.
That's just the nature of the beast, though. Greg's graciousness is worth appreciating, but it's not suddenly going to bridge the gap between where he is and where a lot of people would like him to be. For some, it's worth being patient and understanding. For others, associating with someone like Boogie makes such patience and understanding difficult.
At that point, we might reach a stage where we start arguing with each other over how dismissive we should be of people with problematic relationships, and the back and forth continues.
I know that KFG is reliant on patreon patrons who come from various walks of life and have different beliefs including some that are sheltered at best and vile and bigoted at worst. As such, this introspective response that draws definitive lines in the sand (insofar as political and moral positions are concerned) as the face of KFG, is very pleasant surprise.
Gaming culture is rife with myriad sociopolitical and moral issues, casting bad faith actors to the periphery prolongs, if not perpetuates, the status-quo. Silence or mealy mouthed responses act as implied consent for folks unaffected to kick the can down the road. Consequently, effecting changes to specific problematic attitudes so deeply ingrained in this said culture needs folks who are its more noteworthy representatives. It is a responsibility not asked for but is conferred by virtue of position of influence. You are very well known in the world of gaming and are an integral part of the overarching culture. Your words carry significant weight that reverberates through this global community. This makes you an aforementioned representative.
Hope you continue to grow as a person along with your channel for the better. Furthermore, I also hope that the moral fortitude displayed here is reflected more explicitly in the conduct of KFG crew with minimal concessions.
Thank you.
But Boogie was deplatformed here for being an asshole and I don't know why out of all the shitty people online Boogie seems to haunt Resetera. You literally see people unable not to mention Boogie at every given opportunity, even if it genuinely isn't relevant to do so.
So if we're going to talk about bandwidth, why are people wasting bandwidth on that twat when he's not relevant to what they are discussing?
Seeing as Greg actually came back when I was convinced he wouldn't, that gives some benefit of the doubt. More than should be met with people unironically bringing out their laundry lists as if to say now we have you here again Greg, do our washing for us.
...Are we pretending that he didn't actively choose to associate himself with Boogie after his Holocaust nonsense now?
The criticisms toward Greg are about how meaningless or hollow his words have been about saying "fuck bigots" while not actually coming down very hard on specifically named bigots and opting to redistribute blame to everyone in some "everyone please get along" BS. His ignoring Boogie's comments is very much related.
Shit response if he continues to associate himself with those people
So what next, are you going to ask Greg for his personal diary to make sure he didn't write an entry you don't like on March the 20th 2007?
Keep it relevant to what he's potentially done wrong here. It's not hard.
What is this Boogie thing? Are you saying because Boogie posted something bullshit in a tweet and you couldn't find Greg's twitter account quoting it and calling it out Greg is responsible for Boogie's behaviour? What is your point with Boogie?
Okay, so we are in fact pretending he doesn't actively choose to publicly associate with him.
At least we are on the same page as you being purposefully dense about how him emboldening Boogie is part of what he's done wrong now.
Hopefully she says something soon, but I'm not expecting it.
GOTY champion and fan favourite around here, Cory Barlog.
It is unfortunate people in the industry continue to recognise Boogie, I won't deny that, but I still think it's best to keep things relevant in this topic.
Boogie tagged Greg in that tweet, and while Greg could have ignored it, he doesn't seem like that kind of guy. Now maybe that's a fault not just to ignore people, but unless you're going to take on Barlog now that I've made you aware he recognised Boogie, maybe just leave this topic to what it's for?
This is eye-opening for me. "Be better to each other" started and -- 99 percent of the time -- is applied to people bickering about video games. I completely get what you're saying in these instances and how trying to apply that to horrible people doesn't work. I'll be more careful with when I bust that out and what I mean by it. Thanks!
Generalities like "fuck bigots" mean nothing if you continue to associate with terrible people. Not an advanced concept.
Thank you for listening and treating my voice as a valid one <3
I don't even like Barlog.
Why are you actively ignoring that I'm discussing Boogie because of his ties to Greg? I'm not bringing him up out of nowhere and attributing it to Greg, it's directly related to him.
It's not directly related to this incident, and from what you posted I can quite clearly see Boogie tagged Greg and Greg gave him the courtesy of a reply.
Maybe that was wrong to do, in your eyes and others, but it's not like he's inviting Boogie to his wedding, playing golf with him at the weekend and then having a sleepover.
You're bringing up things not related to this specific incident to use the topic as an all encompassing moral judgement of Greg Miller, as if you're God at the pearly gates counting up how many points Greg is going to get for potential entry. This topic should stay focused on the issue the OP raised which Greg has now posted multiple times to try and address and apologise for.
The point is that this is not an isolated incident.
I highlight related behavior and relations beyond what OP highlighted after we have Greg himself in the thread trying to understand and learn from mistakes, and suddenly I'm playing god.
Yeah, okay. Saying that it's not related is willful ignorance at this point.
That's the new challenge I was talking about in my second big post. I started all of this to talk about games, that evolved into a platform, and that's evolved into meaning more to people than just games, wings, and cancer. The social issue message has always been "don't be a fucking asshole," but that clearly needs to be more nuanced and pointed at times. Thank you for the input!
it has been brought up multiple times why Greg's relationship to Boogie matters in the context of this subject. Literally 3 posts prior to this it was reiterated.
Andrea’s response
Hey, y'all--
Andrea doesn't have an Era account and just posted this over on our subreddit. I just got to a computer this afternoon and was able to respond, she just got to hers:
Hi everyone! I apologize for the delay in responding to these comments, but it's been a hectic week to say the least. I've had time to reflect and I'd like to put forth this statement:
Earlier this week, Greg and I had a discussion on KFGD about recent news stories around Minecraft creator Notch and Youtube Content Creator PewdiePie. Some of you have expressed concern about statements we made, or didn't make, during that discussion and I think it's pertinent to follow-up with those concerns.
I've rewatched the show, and I understand the criticisms people had about our conversations. I regret that our discussion of this topic included unfounded or under-informed moments from me that sounded like they were condoning statements or posts that are hateful, racist, transphobic, anti-Semitic or bigoted.
I can see how my comments seem dismissive of a serious topic upon reflection, and I apologize. I vehemently reject any type of bigotry and those who invoke it. No amount of context explains away or justifies that behavior, and I'm sorry for implying it could. Of course it can't.
I support people of all backgrounds, genders, sexualities, races, religions - and I reject those who seek to disparage, dismiss, or discriminate against their fellow humans, that includes Notch and Pewdiepie. Greg and I appreciate the constructive criticism from those who took the time out to show us where we fell short, and we commit to demonstrating through both our words and our actions going forward that we have no sympathy for and will not make excuses for those that bring bigotry into the world through their statements, actions, or incitements.
Sincerely, Andrea Rene
Andrea doesn't have an Era account and just posted this over on our subreddit. I just got to a computer this afternoon and was able to respond, she just got to hers:
Hi everyone! I apologize for the delay in responding to these comments, but it's been a hectic week to say the least. I've had time to reflect and I'd like to put forth this statement:
Earlier this week, Greg and I had a discussion on KFGD about recent news stories around Minecraft creator Notch and Youtube Content Creator PewdiePie. Some of you have expressed concern about statements we made, or didn't make, during that discussion and I think it's pertinent to follow-up with those concerns.
I've rewatched the show, and I understand the criticisms people had about our conversations. I regret that our discussion of this topic included unfounded or under-informed moments from me that sounded like they were condoning statements or posts that are hateful, racist, transphobic, anti-Semitic or bigoted.
I can see how my comments seem dismissive of a serious topic upon reflection, and I apologize. I vehemently reject any type of bigotry and those who invoke it. No amount of context explains away or justifies that behavior, and I'm sorry for implying it could. Of course it can't.
I support people of all backgrounds, genders, sexualities, races, religions - and I reject those who seek to disparage, dismiss, or discriminate against their fellow humans, that includes Notch and Pewdiepie. Greg and I appreciate the constructive criticism from those who took the time out to show us where we fell short, and we commit to demonstrating through both our words and our actions going forward that we have no sympathy for and will not make excuses for those that bring bigotry into the world through their statements, actions, or incitements.
Sincerely, Andrea Rene
Hey, I appreciate this response. I hope you're better, because I desperately want someone much better than PDP to represent the video game enthusiat community.
I'm not entirely sure replying to a tweet about a weight loss doppelganger joke implies a sincere relationship or anything, but Greg is here, maybe he'll reply.
I guess if I were you guys I'd be far more concerned about someone calling Boogie a friend than other empty platitudes that have maybe simply recognised Boogie exists. But who knows, I haven't seen a Resetera topic for Barlog yet tagging him and asking him why he called Boogie his friend.
But I digress, if you want to continue to talk about Boogie carry on, I've honestly had enough speaking about him.
Thank you for this, gameovergreggy .
As a minority who feels ostracized by the gaming community at large more often than not and is unfortunately all too aware of the laissez-faire attitude people have towards the thoughts, opinions and words espoused by numerous influential people with-in it, your self reflection, willingness to listen and understand as well as discuss these matters in a thoughtful manner are greatly appreciated.
If more would take your approach, it would help a great deal.
And there it is. Seems like a pretty good response to the situation to me.
Thanks for the response from her Greg. I probably would've never seen it because I don't go to reddit. I do appreciate the response from her tho I do wish she had an account so she could post this herself. Maybe suggest to her that having one like you do would be a good idea. Its not like she would have to post but like I said it would've been nice to hear this from her instead of you. Thanks again for engaging on this issue.
https://www.reddit.com/r/kindafunny/comments/bjegx3/greg_and_andrea_are_currently_getting_dragged/
I'm assuming it's in there somewhere. I don't know her reddit name.
I don't think she'll sign up here though considering it would be like walking into a lions den of 40 pages of angry men waiting on her arrival. Greg's had an account here for a while so I think it's fair enough he's representing KF in some wider capacity on his account (using it to post Andrea's message).
edit: This seems to be the link https://www.reddit.com/r/kindafunny...andrea_are_currently_getting_dragged/emd9p4j/
Last edited:
OP
OP
This is a truly fantastic statement. Thank you Andrea. Thank you reflecting back on your comments, thank you for realizing your shortcomings, and thank you for clearly and unequivocally coming out against bigotry, transphobia, anti-semitism and hatred. Thank you for specially calling out Notch and PewDiePie.
Mods, can you please update the thread title to mention Andrea has responded?
Well I was just lamenting that it would've been nicer to hear it directly from her instead of greg posting it from reddit, but I honestly don't see a reason why she doesn't have an account. You can have an account and just never post and have just in case something like this pops up. But yeah not expecting it either especially now but maybe for in the future in case something comes up.
Edit: also reading those comments the community thought those comments were pretty bad by her so maybe the community isn't so bad afterall. It caused enough of a stir to her respond at least.
- Status