Greg Miller and Andrea Rene handwave Notch and PewDiePie racist, transphobic and anti-semitic behaviour (UP: GM and AR respond; see threadmarks)

[TheRuralJuror]

I know :(

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On top of that, yet another poster who wasn't even sure of what was said originally, but spent the bulk of their time here criticizing it. I had a feeling most people were complaining based on second-hand info. Talk about "outrage."

 

[DigitalOp]

Expecting everyone to filter out negative comments with no issue is somewhat unrealistic. Earlier someone said this about Andrea:

This issue with this, DigitalOP (and you to Ramjag), is that not everyone deals with criticism the same way. This is especially true when that criticism is full of toxicity. It's ok to handle criticism differently than others. Some people can find the constructive bits in a sea of toxicity while others can't help but focus on the insults. It's not really fair of us to say that Andrea should just wade through the trash when there were people on this site calling her the c word. That can be a particularly strong insult to women (and I've never liked how casually it's used around here).

DigitalOP, you said that you could post a video on YouTube about cats and get a bunch of bullshit comments for no reason. You're right, but there's no excuse for that. Just because toxicity exists doesn't make it ok. Let's not handwave it away just because it's the wider internet as if that makes it ok. YouTubers often say that when they read their comments it's the toxic ones which stick out most.

For what it's worth Andrea did apologize despite the toxicity, and it seems like she understands what she did wrong. I have never really been a fan of getting nit picky about the particulars of an apology to make it come across as not good enough, and I am especially not a fan when it involves excusing toxic behavior. If we are going to be upset that Andrea doesn't like being insulted here then I'm not really sure what to say.

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This is exactly why I said :

Keep in mind, I'm not saying people posting attacks and bullshit are not accountable. No, that shit shouldn't be tolerated.

Nowhere did I say people posting bullshit should be tolerated. Now, I just went and looked at the first 7 pages and Im on 100ppp. I found about maybe 2 comments that were hostile and out of line. You know what the rest of the one liners were?

"Well Kinda Funny is done"

"Im not surprised"

"Why would decrying those 2 be difficult? Call them bigots, done"

You know what I found more of? Bad actors coming in the thread trying to derail and downplay the severity of the issue, Even had a white fragility derail in the first 3 pages. Actual discussion was still being had. Now the mods went back and actioned everyone and I really don't feel like looking back on this whole thread which is 24 pages at 100 post per page. My point should stand because multiple people pointed at the first pages as being "embarrassing". These were the pages before Gregs first reply btw.

So 2 things,

1. If people making simple comments like "Im not surprised" and "Kinda Funny is over" are being considered as derogatory personal attacks, then it highlights the entire point of why this blew up to begin with. You really don't know how good you have it. Really huge false equivalency to claim that type of simple noneffective criticism gives you reason to ignore valid commentary on the issue. Do those comments mean much in the end? No, they don't add anything to the discussion. But that shit is so toothless that you'd be looking for an excuse to to prop those comments up as an attack on someone.


2. And this is the rich one, Im going to push the font up to make a point. The argument popping up currently is that one shouldn't be expected to abide by others standards, values, and morality. Sure, okay fine. People shouldn't be expected to interact with those who hurl insults and personal attacks at them. Sure, Okay fine.........

So why..... Why... why.. why in the fuck does this argument always get used to BASH minorities and discriminated people?!!

So WHY are we always told to ignore the racists and the bigots, and watch our tone so we can interact with those on the "fence". WHY do we get told to give the people who throw insults and slurs our way the benefit of the doubt? WHY are we expected to tone down out language so we don't push away the audience....

This argument is complete shit when you turn around and say Andrea has no bearing to interact with those who criticize with vulgarity or insults. (Reminder: The majority of first criticism were toothless statements up to Pg. 7) And that she has a right to protect her emotions and her sanity in that regard.

If you were in this thread using this argument and believe it, fine. But STOP using that shit to BASH discriminated people. STOP telling them they need to communicate and come to the middle and educate. Stop that shit. So fucking wack and transparent.

 

[Deleted member 5621]

Feels to me like Greg is willing to own it up and learn (let's see how that pans out), but Andrea isn't /shrug

"It sounded like I..." "I can see how my comments seem..." "Of course I'm not..."
This is not owning up for your mistakes and gross misinformation (much like Greg's initial reply to the OP). This is the standard PR response of "Sorry if I offended you." And as multiple posters mentioned earlier in the thread, no. It's not clear that someone is not a bigot. You don't get to say that about yourself, no matter how much good you did or do. No one has the obligation to assume you are cool, specially if one suffers with bigotry.
"I reject Notch" is completely hollow after normalizing his absolutely nuts comments and dismissing worry over them. "I reject Notch" or "Fuck X" or "I'm not Y" is pretty damn easy to say. It sounds exactly like some here (including me) said: just a way of circling around the issue, trying to not offend anyone or take an actual stance.

Anyway, still hope this is addressed directly in one of their shows and not just here/on their subreddit. Also, Greg, I would echo that maybe this is just not the sort of topic that pertains the Daily show, where you guys don't go that much in depth in general, research or no research. This is the the sort of discussion that deserves (and needs) a more focused, and probably longer, thing.

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Great post.

To be fair there's a lot of fucking nonsense in this thread mixed in with the legitimate concerns.

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That's how any public discussion like this goes. If a minority being dumb (with some being straight up being warned/banned for their comments) is enough to dismiss the majority bringing up good points over, you know, white suprematism, well...

I think in the case of Andrea the death of her career would be sufficient. But you've hit the nail on the head. This board has become very toxic, the moderation is too lax and if not for the ignore function, this would be a very bad place.

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Already banned but I don't care: Fuck you.

 

[saenima]

On top of that, yet another poster who wasn't even sure of what was said originally, but spent the bulk of their time here criticizing it. I had a feeling most people were complaining based on second-hand info.

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Definitely. One of the problems is the need for instant hot takes and strong stands after skimming the title and half the OP. Now, don't get me wrong, i'm all for measured shitposting. I do it all the time. In topics that don't matter. But when it comes to issues that seriously affect people's lives, we need to do better and at least understand what the hell is going on.

 

[Deleted member 1849]

Here is every mention of the word "cunt" in this thread. In order. Excluding posts which only quoted the below posts:

Man, that racist cunt and his nazi cuntery is really wacky, huh

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But don't conflate calling people out with the going too far. "Too far" isn't always subjective, you yourself are responsible for what comes out of your mouth in the face of injustice. You may well be talking about someone who has wronged you in some way, but there is a big difference between trash talk and being abusive yourself.

Here's one takeaway from this to think about. Andrea has been called a cunt in this topic quite a number of times. Now I'm a Brit, I see and hear the word cunt used quite often. Us Brits still know it's potentially the "worst" swear word there is. But we also look to intent. If someone engages in what you could say is cunty-behaviour, you might well feel it's appropriate to say "You've acted like a cunt" or "You're a cunt". And hey, the person maybe has. And we say that to both men and women. It's one of the harshest condemnations you can hurl at someone with the English language. When people are justifiably upset, they often use harsh language.

In America though, calling a woman a cunt is still very taboo, more so than the UK. No matter the intent. GAF used to ban the word cunt, and I don't doubt some on Era staff aren't too happy about how often it might get used around here. Do I think Andrea is probably a little bit upset quite a number of men in this topic called her a cunt? Probably. Many women would take it very poorly to have a sizeable collection of men all saying "You're a fucking cunt".

But here is where I draw my distinction between anger/harsh words and criticism versus taking it too far. I've not got much of an issue with people calling Andrea a cunt given that it was handwaving Notch who is probably one of the biggest cunts on Earth. That is very cunty-behaviour to downplay how much of an asshole Notch is. Could there be a few men who have their own issues with treating women poorly who jump on the bandwagon just to get to call Andrea a cunt /troll and not have anyone care because it seems like they're just angry? Maybe, but that is what it is, the majority using harsh language to condemn your behaviour aren't doing it to throw gendered remarks at you. They're upset people understandably lashing out to an extent, because you downplayed the problematic behaviour of two of the biggest assholes in gaming.

Getting personal to the levels of talking about people's relationships, or stating over the top hyperbole/accusations and comments that are truly in bad taste, is simply not the same as you being angry and using some harsh language to call someone out.

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I read her comments, what did she say that undermines her apology in your opinion? Cause shes completely right, this thread has been nothing but a hate filled circlejerk for 95% of the posts. Would you want to interact with people who are calling you a cunt? Would you want to interact with people saying you should lose your job? I doubt it.

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1 user calling Notch a cunt. 0 people calling Andrea a cunt. 2 people angry about all the people in this thread calling Andrea a cunt.

This is what tone policing and fake concern looks like.

 

[Finale Fireworker]

In the absence of new developments to discuss, this thread appears to have run its course. This situation seems to have come to a close for now.