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JahIthBer

Member
Jan 27, 2018
10,376
Aside from maybe Uncharted. This gen was pretty good with the tech demos actually matching what was possible this gen. Nothing like the Motorstorm PS3 reveal.

You guys remember how amazing the Elemental demo looked?


Quantic Dream Dark Sorcerer


Square Enix Agnis Philosophy


With that I have no doubt Hellblade 2 will look every bit as good as the trailer.
There was 2 elemental demo's, the second one was pretty downgraded but people think of the first generally.
I would say QD got close to their demo, Square sure as fuck didn't lol. well character models they did but the scale of that demo might not even be realistic on next gen.
 

Firefly

Member
Jul 10, 2018
8,621
....That's a CG render from a studio known for making CG renders using technology that no CDPR game has ever used.


Somehow this trailer has already led to claims of a downgrade because the Keanu Reeves model doesn't look as good as a CG trailer. 🤦‍♂️

Who can be stupid enough to compare a CGI render to in game graphics?
 

EVIL

Senior Concept Artist
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,782
I agree with you there. Five years ago nobody was thinking about raytracing in games (maybe Nvidia was internally), and something like DLSS 2.0 would have sounded like magic. I think we are going to see some really amazing visuals, and it is going to look like a generational leap, but its still not going to get close to CGI and offline renders because the hardware gap between next gen and what you need to do for extensive real-time raytracing is still huge. Remember, games are more than just visuals, and a lot of the resources go into animations, AI, physics, game logic, ect. I hope we get Control levels of raytracing as the norm on consoles, but anything more than that is unlikely.
I think people need to limit what to expect from raytracing in the next gen consoles. You simply cannot compare it to what you get on PC right now. especially with the new Ampere GPU's coming this year, the gap will be widened even more before the console generation even begins.

This is very much still a generation of rasterisation on consoles.

Its gonna be interesting to see how they will use Raytracing during the console generation tho. Closed system always enourages a lot of outside the box thinking and being smart with resources.
 

ken_matthews

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
838
I think people need to limit what to expect from raytracing in the next gen consoles. You simply cannot compare it to what you get on PC right now. especially with the new Ampere GPU's coming this year, the gap will be widened even more before the console generation even begins.

This is very much still a generation of rasterisation on consoles.

So you don't even think consoles will see Control levels of raytracing?
 

EVIL

Senior Concept Artist
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,782
So you don't even think consoles will see Control levels of raytracing?
I am sure it will match, even on PC its early days of what to get out of current RTX cards. but to expect generation leaps, raytracing at 4k, is insanity.

edit: and that is what I am reading a lot here. "4k, raytracing, gonna be insane".. first of all raytracing is very resolution dependant, the higher the resulution, the more rays you need to to cast. thats why a lot of reflections are rendered at half the resolution or even lower at 1080p We are def not ready yet for 4k native raytracing any time soon, not even on PC.Also raytracing is very performance heavy. If there is heavy use of raytracing, dont expect it to run at 60 fps. thats why you will most likely see a small subset used in games. devs prefer having more stable performances. RT for shadows is a good one, or very rough fully dynamic GI. but it wont be able to compete with prebaked lighting for this generation int terms of quality and fedelity.

but as I said, closed systems promote a lot of smart thinking. and I have been suprised more than once on the current generation consoles. so we will see!
 
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Deleted member 48434

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 8, 2018
5,230
Sydney
I think outside of a few cornerstone AAA graphical showcase games, many games next gen are probably gonna look like PS4 games at 60fps and with better lighting (Hopefully)

This shit's expensive to make yo.
It doesn't matter if it's capable of more if many devs aren't able to afford it.
With diminishing returns, it costs SO MUCH for just a little increase in fidelity.

Hell, I think we saw a bit of this this gen, I feel like simpler art styles are becoming more common this gen because they're cheaper and easier to work with.
 

KKRT

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,544
People thinking this is what the diff from current gen to next gen is are as crazy as the people expecting Avatar.
Slightly less crazy, but still crazy ;p

Ps. I want every studio to adopt the particles fluid sim that Remedy used in Control. Its screenspace, but still extremely impressive.
Its actually amusing that people find Control to not be technologically impressive when they used fluid sim for particles on current gen consoles :P
 
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OP
OP
ResetEraVetVIP
Nov 20, 2019
1,861
Whats exciting about next gen is the software/tools advances will likely give nearly as big of a performance boost as the hardware upgrade

At the end of the gen if devs target internal 1080p a.i generated to 4k using dlss, directML or whatever other versions there are, combined with VRS and mesh shading, it will be like if these consoles were 25tflops!
LOL! True.
 
OP
OP
ResetEraVetVIP
Nov 20, 2019
1,861
I think outside of a few cornerstone AAA graphical showcase games, many games next gen are probably gonna look like PS4 games at 60fps and with better lighting (Hopefully)

This shit's expensive to make yo.
It doesn't matter if it's capable of more if many devs aren't able to afford it.
With diminishing returns, it costs SO MUCH for just a little increase in fidelity.

Hell, I think we saw a bit of this this gen, I feel like simpler art styles are becoming more common this gen because they're cheaper and easier to work with.
AAA devs will and some AA and even some A (rarely)
 
OP
OP
ResetEraVetVIP
Nov 20, 2019
1,861
I think people need to limit what to expect from raytracing in the next gen consoles. You simply cannot compare it to what you get on PC right now. especially with the new Ampere GPU's coming this year, the gap will be widened even more before the console generation even begins.

This is very much still a generation of rasterisation on consoles.

Its gonna be interesting to see how they will use Raytracing during the console generation tho. Closed system always enourages a lot of outside the box thinking and being smart with resources.
This. Exactly.
 

Nintendo

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,367
I think outside of a few cornerstone AAA graphical showcase games, many games next gen are probably gonna look like PS4 games at 60fps and with better lighting (Hopefully)

This shit's expensive to make yo.
It doesn't matter if it's capable of more if many devs aren't able to afford it.
With diminishing returns, it costs SO MUCH for just a little increase in fidelity.

Hell, I think we saw a bit of this this gen, I feel like simpler art styles are becoming more common this gen because they're cheaper and easier to work with.

Graphics isn't what makes games expensive. High quality assets are not that expensive especially when outsourced. The hardware, software, and tools makes it easier to achieve high-end visuals.

We need to go back to counting polygons/sec, not TeraFlops.

Polygon count is so irrelevant now. There are many techniques that are much more efficient and look better than just more polygons.
 

MetalGearZed

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,927
Ray-Traced shadows and reflections are all I really want for consoles. I can wait a little longer until we get full-on path tracing a-la Minecraft RTX in big AAA games.
I wonder if Rockstar will have a similarly robust RT setup for GTA 6 on PC. Boy that'd be something. Even if PCs at time can't handle it at a decent framerate, I would like for it to have path-tracing support for the future, kinda like how Crysis was aiming for the PCs of the future.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,300
"4k, raytracing, gonna be insane".. first of all raytracing is very resolution dependant, the higher the resulution, the more rays you need to to cast. thats why a lot of reflections are rendered at half the resolution or even lower at 1080p We are def not ready yet for 4k native raytracing any time soon, not even on PC.Also raytracing is very performance heavy. If there is heavy use of raytracing, dont expect it to run at 60 fps. thats why you will most likely see a small subset used in games. devs prefer having more stable performances. RT for shadows is a good one, or very rough fully dynamic GI. but it wont be able to compete with prebaked lighting for this generation int terms of quality and fedelity.
Nah man, i REALLY don't know alot about tech but we're literally getting avatar tier graphics in realtime. :D
 

EVIL

Senior Concept Artist
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,782
Avatar won't be visually topped in video games for the next 100 years. I'd love to be proven wrong.
hmm, give it 15 or so years for the industry to move away from current raytrace rasterisation hybrid solutions to a full raytraced Realtime engine, by then RT acceleration will have advanced a lot and will make it possible to natively run AAA raytraced content. It will def not take 100 years.
 

ken_matthews

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
838
Besides dynamic clothing, I really hope mesh blending becomes the norm for environments/terrain. It makes things look a lot less video gamey.

polycount.com

Battlefront's Level Construction - how can everything just sort of match and blend?

This video was posted in Slack group. https://vimeo.com/172293963

Outside of Frostbite games, and I think RDR2, I don't see many games doing this. It is such a little thing but it makes such a huge difference.

EDIT: Just look at this...the game looks amazing, but how dare they not blend the rocks with the terrain.
z425bBw.jpg
 
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ken_matthews

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
838
Not anything new but I feel like this thread need some more beautiful real-time footage to get us back on track.
I really like the look of this demo
I wonder how well the consoles could pull this demo off. UE4 w/DXR raytracing


Ok, now this is starting to look like CGI and offline renders. I would love it if next gen consoles eventually get there for gameplay, but I wouldn't be surprised if they fall quite a bit short.
 

ElNerdo

Member
Oct 22, 2018
2,220
I wonder how AMD's RT hardware implementation will compare to Nvidia's, especially when we see the difference between 1st and 2nd Tensor cores
 

Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
4,930
Berlin, 'SCHLAND
Next gen consoles hell yes, even a little better (PBR).
What do you think pbr means exactly?
I wonder how AMD's RT hardware implementation will compare to Nvidia's, especially when we see the difference between 1st and 2nd Tensor cores
Tensor cores are not involved im ray tracing, you are thinking of the RT core which handle the aabb traversals, ray triangle intersections and reporting of Hits and misses.
 

Firefly

Member
Jul 10, 2018
8,621
F0iITZq.png

🤦‍♂️ 🤦‍♂️ 🤦‍♂️
Is this website banned on Era? Because the amount of stupid in that shot should be a bannable offense. A few minutes of CGI costs hundreds of thousands of dollars.

"haven't managed to show him in gameplay"
"history of downgrading their games"
"hasn't learned their lessons"

A real person wrote this trash? 🤦‍♂️
 

Equanimity

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,991
London
Is this website banned on Era? Because the amount of stupid in that shot should be a bannable offense. A few minutes of CGI costs hundreds of thousands of dollars.

"haven't managed to show him in gameplay"
"history of downgrading their games"
"hasn't learned their lessons"

A real person wrote this trash? 🤦‍♂️

Do we know why they CDP didn't use Keanu's likeness?

As for downgrades, The Witcher 3 was downgraded and learning from their lessons remains to be seen with cyberpunk. I hope the final product isn't at odds with what was shown, disclaimer considered.
 

Firefly

Member
Jul 10, 2018
8,621
Do we know why they CDP didn't use Keanu's likeness?

As for downgrades, The Witcher 3 was downgraded and learning from their lessons remains to be seen with cyberpunk. I hope the final product isn't at odds with what was shown, disclaimer considered.
They did use his likeness. An in game model running in real time will never look as good as a pre-rendered CGI model with insane polycount and detail . Thats all there is to it.
 

Equanimity

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,991
London
They did use his likeness. An in game model running in real time will never look as good as a pre-rendered CGI model with insane polycount and detail . Thats all there is to it.

Stating the obvious there. Why didn't they use his likeness in cyberpunk is what I'm asking?

You can make real-time character models resemble their real life counterparts, this was achieved even on last gen hardware.
 

Tora

The Enlightened Wise Ones
Member
Jun 17, 2018
8,638
I am sure it will match, even on PC its early days of what to get out of current RTX cards. but to expect generation leaps, raytracing at 4k, is insanity.

edit: and that is what I am reading a lot here. "4k, raytracing, gonna be insane".. first of all raytracing is very resolution dependant, the higher the resulution, the more rays you need to to cast. thats why a lot of reflections are rendered at half the resolution or even lower at 1080p We are def not ready yet for 4k native raytracing any time soon, not even on PC.Also raytracing is very performance heavy. If there is heavy use of raytracing, dont expect it to run at 60 fps. thats why you will most likely see a small subset used in games. devs prefer having more stable performances. RT for shadows is a good one, or very rough fully dynamic GI. but it wont be able to compete with prebaked lighting for this generation int terms of quality and fedelity.

but as I said, closed systems promote a lot of smart thinking. and I have been suprised more than once on the current generation consoles. so we will see!
It's refreshing to read a comment from someone with sense on here
 

Firefly

Member
Jul 10, 2018
8,621
A better look at this character model would be appreciated. I hope we get to see more from cyberpunk soon.
Thats why I called that article trash. Its dated August 2019. Not only comparing CGI to in game model, but using what looks like a youtube compressed screenshot as a basis of that ludicrous comparison as soon as CDPR released the trailer to get clicks.
 

ken_matthews

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
838
Control on which GPU? I'd be pleasantly surprised if either console rivals rtx 2060 RT capabilities. RT is why mid gen refreshes or shorter gen cycle make sense this time around.

We are going to see some amazing graphics from the next gen consoles, but if they aren't even capable of hitting Control levels of ray tracing, then I think we might end up seeing a generational gap between next gen and high PC really soon after they launch. I agree, a mid-gen refresh will be a must.
 

Equanimity

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,991
London
Thats why I called that article trash. Its dated August 2019. Not only comparing CGI to in game model, but using what looks like a youtube compressed screenshot as a basis of that ludicrous comparison as soon as CDPR released the trailer to get clicks.

The comparison was made using an official screenshot shared by CDPR during Gamescom, it's not from YouTube.

The article was clearly made for clicks though, especially since some of the info in the body is not correct.
 

VanWinkle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,089
My expectation for open world games.


If we can get the asset quality of games like this with a dynamic TOD instead of static lighting we've already made substantial leaps.
Why wouldn't you set your sights higher than that? Horizon Zero Dawn NPCs look far better than any NPCs in a PS3/360 game, linear or open, and next gen will be a more comprehensive upgrade.

Those look great of course (material shades specifically) but that's the absolute bare minimum.
 

disco_potato

Member
Nov 16, 2017
3,145
We are going to see some amazing graphics from the next gen consoles, but if they aren't even capable of hitting Control levels of ray tracing, then I think we might end up seeing a generational gap between next gen and high PC really soon after they launch. I agree, a mid-gen refresh will be a must.
Generational gap in terms of RT? Possibly. But I'd assume for that to happen, games would need to be designed completely around RT rather than rasterization or a mix of both. Otherwise consoles will still be the base that vast majority of games are built around.

Realistically -- are we expecting a DLSS like solution for either console?
Possibly. We know MS has int4/8 for ML, but there's no dedicated hardware for it so they'd be taking away CUs for the purposes of "dlss". That's my understanding of it at least. It would also probably not be anywhere as good as dlss2.0.
 

ken_matthews

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
838
Realistically -- are we expecting a DLSS like solution for either console?


I hope so. If we are going to get anywhere near CGI anytime soon, then I think we are going to need a few more tricks like DLSS 2.0 to make it performant at reasonable levels. But right now DLSS is powered by the RTX tensor cores, so it requires dedicated hardware. I hope the next gen consoles where planned with stuff like this in mind. There is some hope since they will have hardware accelerated raytracing, so you never know. But I have not seen anything about it yet.
 

VanWinkle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,089
I actually don't expect full ray tracing to be very prevalent at all next-gen, because it will have such an effect on resolution, and console manufacturers love touting their 4K capabilities. I'm sure we will get some smaller applications of them (reflections and/or shadows), but i think there are other big things to get excited for besides ray-tracing.

Also, comparing next-gen to Avatar? Come on ya'll. You're just setting yourselves up for disappointment.