Graphic Fidelity I Expect Next Gen.

Thera · Apr 14, 2020

Edit : I forgot to mention, it will be better than that OP.

Kemono said:
Better graphics are a double edged sword for me.

Yeah, the better they looked, the better they are life like, your brain will fart each time something goes wrong. It can be weird animation transition, clipping or IA going crazy (at least, this one is mostly fun).
And, for me, clipping is the worst. I have no problem to immerse myself in simple graphics, at all. I mean, if you are gaming since Atari, you had to. But clipping always throw me off the game.

Bold One · Apr 14, 2020

Games still have such a long way to go in terms of AI, Interactivity, complex environments, packing more polygons on to characters should be the bottom of the priority list.

chris 1515 · Apr 14, 2020

Bold One said:
Games still have such a long way to go in terms of AI, Interactivity, complex environments, packing more polygons on to characters should be the bottom of the priority list.

The guy creating this environnement video said he works on a games with better graphics than this. It is running at 4k 60 fps on a 1080 Ti and. And Andrew Maximov thinks maybe later in the gen we will see big AAA games looking as good as this but tools needs to improve a lot, this is what he is trying to do with his AI based promethean AI start up.

The game is late, it will maybe release in 2021.

Crossing Eden · Apr 14, 2020

MajesticSoup said:
Frostbite showed a much more impressive hair demo. You'll see it in game, count on it.

We won't. Guys, things working in tech demos=/=they will 100% show up in games anytime soon.

Nintendo said:
Of course it won't be on that technical level. However, with real-time rendering tricks, I think games will look close to that even though they are nowhere near it on a technical standpoint.

Define close.

dampflokfreund said:
What most of you are forgetting is that new techniques such as Raytracing and machine learning will significantly speed up development and reduce development cost. Regarding that cloth example: There is already a very performant and cost efficient neural network which can simulate physics by learning it naturally. See here:

Next gen will be all about working smarter, not harder.

This gen already was about working smarter and not harder, every modern engine is made with that goal in mind.

chris 1515 · Apr 14, 2020

Crossing Eden said:
We won't. Guys, things working in tech demos=/=they will 100% show up in games anytime soon.

Define close.

This gen already was about working smarter and not harder, every modern engine is made with that goal in mind.

On Frosbite presentation, they had some optimisation to do on physics with more interpolation and improve LOD with decimation but they tested it on base PS4 not some high end PC GPU.

http://advances.realtimerendering.com/s2019/hair_presentation_final.pdf

And they said in the document they are doing the physics for all strand and they can improve rasterization a lot too because they can do automatic LOD and next generation we will have much better GPU with optimization I think it is possible to use it next generation.

So before talking about performance I need to again point out that this is still very much work in progress. While we have been looking into performance it has mostly been to keep the project in the realm of possibility. As one example we have always rendered and simulated all the strands in our test models, which is probably not something someone would do in a game. At Frostbite we usually work very close with the game teams to ease the introduction of new tech. And when they have it, they are usually very good at finding ways to get more with less. In any case, here are some numbers showing what the performance is currently like on a regular PS4 at 900p resolution, without MSAA, with the hair covering a big chunk of the screen. So for the long-haired asset, which contains about 10'000 strands and a total of 240'000 points, the physics currently take around 4.7ms and the rendering takes around 4.5 ms. The short-haired asset, which contains about 15'000 strands and a total of 75'000 points, the physics instead take around 0.4ms and rendering about 1.9ms. The main reason for the long render times are currently that our GPU utilization is very low, something we are currently investigating different ways to improve.

Keep in mind again that this is with all strands rendered and simulated every frame. In comparison some of the alternative hair simulation system only simulate about 1% of all hair strands. Early experiments show that we can get a 5x performance boost by simulating only 1/10th of all strands and interpolating the results.

Many things are done naively without optimization

We definitely need to improve the performance more, especially shading.

We are also investigation methods to get faster rasterization to improve GPU utilization

Related to that we plan to introduce automatic LOD generation via decimation.

We also would like to further improve the quality of the approximations

We also need to improve the performance of physics more and work more on simulating only a fraction of all strands.

And we want to investigate how to incorporate area lights into the shading model.

Zedelima · Apr 14, 2020

I have some questions while reading this thread
Can we expect a bigger pump in details(enviroment, lighting and etc) than character models?
Can we expect devs to "aim higher" with set pieces? Like Thor smashing Kratos on a entire montain or things like that?

banter · Apr 14, 2020

Creating these highly detailed environments, especially interactive and destructible ones, is not a simple task. As the generation progresses though, developers will make tools to make this a less time intensive task. Examples like Doom Eternal come to mind where they created tools within the engine to allow for much quicker, high quality, asset creation. Tools like these will be game changers for ps5 and xsx. Next gen is going to be wild.

PLASTICA-MAN · Apr 14, 2020

Zedelima said:
I have some questions while reading this thread
Can we expect a bigger pump in details(enviroment, lighting and etc) than character models?
Can we expect devs to "aim higher" with set pieces? Like Thor smashing Kratos on a entire montain or things like that?

Yes. In fact the only reason we din't see the full power of Kratos (his power was gimped down by 1000 times) is due to power limitations. We started seeing a glimpse of his power in fights like against Balder with breaking boulders, shock waves that create rifts you fall in. on PS5 you will see real Dragon Ball liek fights worth of gods since the harwdare is fully capable of it.
Abou Kratos, this a a really great 3D render of him with ultra detailed armor , shadows, AO, beards of Kratos and Mimir and fuzz on trousers and ropes but you can still even betetr character models on PS5

r/PS4 - Kratos | King of Midgard - Massimiliano Bianchini [God of War] [Image]

10,767 votes and 108 comments so far on Reddit

reddit.com

Sems4arsenal · Apr 14, 2020

Private GIF

The owner has set this GIF to private.

giphy.com

This was on the OG PS4. Y'all really underestimating the devs

ResetEraVetVIP · Apr 14, 2020

Falus said:
It's always funny how people are underesmating consoles. We have god of war / horizon/ Spider-Man / gears 5 / tlou2 among the best looking game pc included running on system that are 8 times less powerfull than next gen minimum with shitty cpu. Next gen consoles will take the crown when they release graphic wise surpassing Pc and they will manage to be on par with them for a long time. Console optimization is always amazing

Exactly. Console games look almost better than anything I have on my PC with an RTX 2080 (Except on max settings with 4k and RTX on). The Order 1886 actually is probably the best looking title out period. PCs will always take the crown but they are limited by the base consoles today. When the next gen consoles come out, the baseline will go up.

1er tigre · Apr 14, 2020

Hey Please said:
Another taste, courtesy of same studio (Embark):

Photogrammetry + Ultra-turbo-uber-lazorz-streaming systems will yield some rather pleasing results.

This is real time ? Seriously ?

Sub Boss · Apr 14, 2020

Oluasc said:
Hellblade 2:

Real life:

Project Mara:

PROJECT MARA wasnt capable of rendering the people :P

Hey Please · Apr 14, 2020

1er tigre said:
This is real time ? Seriously ?

According to the makers, yes.

Of note is that Phil Spencer was at their studio last year in November (it's on their twitter timeline).

chris 1515 · Apr 14, 2020

1er tigre said:
This is real time ? Seriously ?

Yes this is realtime.

Embark Studios

Stockholm-based games studio, on a mission to blur the line between playing and making

www.embark-studios.com

HeWhoWalks · Apr 14, 2020

ResetEraVetVIP said:
Exactly. Console games look almost better than anything I have on my PC with an RTX 2080 (Except on max settings with 4k and RTX on). The Order 1886 actually is probably the best looking title out period. PCs will always take the crown but they are limited by the base consoles today. When the next gen consoles come out, the baseline will go up.

I love The Order, but no. It certainly isn't. The best on PC, like both Battlefront games (and this doesn't even have raytracing), Metro: Exodus, and Control, have no trouble clearing that game visually. Even God Of War looks better.

The Last Of Us: Part II and Ghost of Tsushima promise to challenge all of them, but let's not get carried away with 1886.

ResetEraVetVIP · Apr 14, 2020

HeWhoWalks said:
I love The Order, but no. It certainly isn't. The best on PC, like both Battlefront games (and this doesn't even have raytracing), Metro: Exodus, and Control, are ahead of the best on consoles. The Last Of Us and Ghost of Tsushima promise to challenge them, but lets not get carried away with 1886.

I mean as far a realism. It looks real CGI like. The Character models no. but the environments CGI like. Its really looks a leap better than almost any game in the environments.

HeWhoWalks · Apr 14, 2020

ResetEraVetVIP said:
I mean as far a realism. It looks real CGI like. The Character models no. but the environments CGI like. Its really looks a leap better than almost any game in the environments.

Again, nope. I don't disagree that it looks pre-rendered like at times, but "a leap better than almost any game in the environments"? Definitely not. Opinions and all, but nah.

chris 1515 · Apr 14, 2020

Airship - Lifeboats Exterior Lighting

In game renders from The Order 1886. Environment Modeling by James Rosenkranz Environment Texturing by Megan Parks

dushyant.artstation.com

The environment looks so good because this was probably the best baked indirect lighting at the release of the title with great materials and PBR. The character looked good too. But we have seen better on fac, for clothes the game is among the best.

Hey Please · Apr 14, 2020

Lest folks forget, this is what we got this gen, albeit with with objects and LoD pop-ins:

chris 1515 said:
Airship - Lifeboats Exterior Lighting

In game renders from The Order 1886. Environment Modeling by James Rosenkranz Environment Texturing by Megan Parks

dushyant.artstation.com

The environment looks so good because this was probably the best baked indirect lighting at the release of the the tile.

Remember when Chromatic Aberration was one those "next gen" things? Some games abused the hell out of it (like Bloodborne). Here it's not that egregious.

Mindtaker · Apr 14, 2020

doemaaan said:
Damn. Now I want Andy playing a prominent role in a game. Guy's incredible.

Squadron 42.

just_myles · Apr 14, 2020

justiceiro said:
If you are willing to pay 300$ bucks per game, you are in the right track. Man, when people realize this generation will not improve fidelity as much as will just allow more busy vistas, we all could see soul crushing reactions.

Seriously. I see the most recent Capcom stuff as a benchmark for next gen console with more stuff happening in game worlds. Not sure why OP or anyone is expecting that.

Jiraiya · Apr 14, 2020

just_myles said:
Seriously. I see the most recent Capcom stuff as a benchmark for next gen console with more stuff happening in game worlds. Not sure why OP or anyone is expecting that.

Sony and Microsoft went through all this r&d just to get current gen visuals with more stuff on screen? Yeesh what are they thinking.

ResetEraVetVIP · Apr 14, 2020

Jiraiya said:
Sony and Microsoft went through all this r&d just to get current gen visuals with more stuff on screen? Yeesh what are they thinking.

lol.

Edit: Yeah take Death Stranding on 1.8 TFLOPS 8 GB ram. now we have A giant leap in CPU compared to the Jaguar in PS4 and 10 TFLOPS of RDNA2 with a new SSD and 16 GB of GDDR6 ram.. Yeah current gen visuals lmao!

HeWhoWalks · Apr 14, 2020

just_myles said:
Seriously. I see the most recent Capcom stuff as a benchmark for next gen console with more stuff happening in game worlds. Not sure why OP or anyone is expecting that.

We will have better looking stuff than that. Already do.

Hey Please · Apr 14, 2020

HeWhoWalks said:
We will have better looking stuff than that. Already do.

I'd reckon the graphical fx precision and effects we get atm in cutscenes are very likely to be candidates for gen's gameplay visuals. A long time ago in a thread far far away, Dictator posted screenshots of Metro Exodus with RTX features on (iirc it was either RT shadows or RT GI) which supplemented traditional rendering's lighting and shadows with a more physically accurate additions. Having that for next gen could definitely help reduce the discrepancy between 'In-engine' and 'In-game' fidelity.

For example, unlike DMC5, DG looks to keep the sub-surface scattering for its protagonist even outside cutscenes, giving him a more realistic look:

Krauser Kat · Apr 14, 2020

dampflokfreund said:
What most of you are forgetting is that new techniques such as Raytracing and machine learning will significantly speed up development and reduce development cost. Regarding that cloth example: There is already a very performant and cost efficient neural network which can simulate physics by learning it naturally. See here:

Next gen will be all about working smarter, not harder.

they don't but that's cool to think that way. Lighting designers now will work just as hard but different. they will become like lighting designers in movies.

Galkinator · Apr 14, 2020

I finished Uncharted 4 yesterday and throughout I was constantly thinking "I can't believe they managed these graphics on a PS4".
I can't even imagine what will be done next-gen, but talented devs will surely surprise us.

ResetEraVetVIP · Apr 14, 2020

HeWhoWalks said:
We will have better looking stuff than that. Already do.

I agree with you as far as RT lighting. RE3 looks awesome maxed out. :D

dodo · Apr 14, 2020

Krauser Kat said:
they don't but that's cool to think that way. Lighting designers now will work just as hard but different. they will become like lighting designers in movies.

yeah, this idea that raytracing will make good lighting "easier" drives me up the wall. raytracing is not a magic "make game look perfect" button.

ResetEraVetVIP · Apr 14, 2020

Hey Please said:
I'd reckon the graphical fx precision and effects we get atm in cutscenes are very likely to be candidates for gen's gameplay visuals. A long time ago in a thread far far away, Dictator posted screenshots of Metro Exodus with RTX features on (iirc it was either RT shadows or RT GI) which supplemented traditional rendering's lighting and shadows with a more physically accurate additions. Having that for next gen could definitely help reduce the discrepancy between 'In-engine' and 'In-game' fidelity.

For example, unlike DMC5, DG looks to keep the sub-surface scattering for its protagonist even outside cutscenes, giving him a more realistic look:

Days Gone is one of the best looking titles made.

ResetEraVetVIP · Apr 14, 2020

I want animation to match also. Comparable to The Last of Us 2 and the branching animations.

DavidDesu · Apr 14, 2020

Still amazing that consoles are being downplayed yet again. Remember when The Order trailer was revealed, real time on PS4 and NOBODY believed it? I expect the same again within a few short months. Also this time I'd argue console exclusive games can and will be designed to take advantage of SSD speeds that simply cannot be guaranteed on the PC scene. Just look at the 0.01% of PC gamers with high end graphics cards and that's about how many could afford SSD of the speeds the consoles will have (certainly what the PS5 will have anyway). The console SSD advantage could end up being a generational leap in terms of what can be achieved graphically as well as in terms of game design itself.

I truly believe that, and we'll see next gen games that PC won't see for a decade!

Hey Please · Apr 14, 2020

Talking of DG:

It is frankly astounding how well, albeit after myriad patches, Bend studios have accomplished with UE4 (perhaps the only Sony FP to use third party engine).

ResetEraVetVIP said:
I want animation to match also. Comparable to The Last of Us 2 and the branching animations.

This perhaps my biggest, BIGGEST wish for next gen- The quality of animation hasn't been commensurate with increase in fidelity in most games. I know that TLoU2 are working off of Ubisoft developed motion matching tech which ought provide both relief (due to its machine learning nature) and advancements over current gen's animation blending system. Of course, this requires a competent CPU which the next gen looks to have. So, I have fingers crossed.

Pankratous · Apr 14, 2020

DavidDesu said:
Still amazing that consoles are being downplayed yet again. Remember when The Order trailer was revealed, real time on PS4 and NOBODY believed it? I expect the same again within a few short months. Also this time I'd argue console exclusive games can and will be designed to take advantage of SSD speeds that simply cannot be guaranteed on the PC scene. Just look at the 0.01% of PC gamers with high end graphics cards and that's about how many could afford SSD of the speeds the consoles will have (certainly what the PS5 will have anyway). The console SSD advantage could end up being a generational leap in terms of what can be achieved graphically as well as in terms of game design itself.

I truly believe that, and we'll see next gen games that PC won't see for a decade!

A decade is a bit extreme I think. SSDs on PC that can match the PS5 will probably be much more widely available in just three years.

SDR-UK · Apr 14, 2020

I need to play Days Gone again, it looks so damn good. I just wish it had some story DLC just as Horizon did. I mopped the main campaign and everything else up 100%.

Shoichi · Apr 14, 2020

You won't get games that look like that. There's a difference between what's possible with a CGI movie/show vs a game

Crossing Eden · Apr 14, 2020

Hey Please said:
This perhaps my biggest, BIGGEST wish for next gen- The quality of animation hasn't been commensurate with increase in fidelity in most games. I know that TLoU2 are working off of Ubisoft developed motion matching tech which ought provide both relief (due to its machine learning nature) and advancements over current gen's animation blending system. Of course, this requires a competent CPU which the next gen looks to have. So, I have fingers crossed.

This is mainly because a lot of games have prioritized input response times over pretty animation. You compare animation quality, especially when it comes to animation blending, and there's been a monumental leap in quality across the board.

DavidDesu said:
Still amazing that consoles are being downplayed yet again. Remember when The Order trailer was revealed, real time on PS4 and NOBODY believed it?

I remember when it came out and was one of the shortest and most AAA linear games of the generation that was a direct indication that audiences aren't super interested in that sort of thing compared to open worlds. And that trend continued til the end of the generation. With expectations that most devs are gonna be improving and iterating on open worlds and/or wide linear. If they had tried to make the Order have the scale of a title like Uncharted 4 it wouldn't have been able to look like that.

DavidDesu · Apr 14, 2020

Pankratous said:
A decade is a bit extreme I think. SSDs on PC that can match the PS5 will probably be much more widely available in just three years.

Yeah but for games to be designed to take advantage of them you need mass adoption, they need to be ubiquitous. Do you see SSDs and whatever new motherboards that might be required being bought by 90% of PC gamers? In the next 5 years absolutely not, beyond that maybe they will be cheap enough and installed on most new PCs and laptops, but I have my doubts still. Any game designed for a next gen console exclusively can guarantee that they are there. PC will not be in that situation for very possibly a decade, based on the fact the vast majority of PC gamers are not rocking the latest expensive tech but are actually quite far below.

Coríu · Apr 14, 2020

I'll never understand why people crave higher and higher fidelity when the environments are still so frustratingly stale when it comes to responsiveness and interactivity. Incredibly beautiful and detailed worlds that feel like they're pasted on a green screen.

Nintendo · Apr 14, 2020

Crossing Eden said:
Define close.

Close as in it would look basically the same to the eye from a normal viewing distance. Games don't have to have infinite details and insane draw distances.

DavidDesu · Apr 14, 2020

Coríu said:
I'll never understand why people crave higher and higher fidelity when the environments are still so frustratingly stale when it comes to responsiveness and interactivity. Incredibly beautiful and detailed worlds that feel like they're pasted on a green screen.

Isn't that partly to do with the consoles being the baseline for most game development and the fact current gen consoles are rocking crap laptop CPUs even when they were released? The vastly improved CPUs might just see a change up to this. I bloody well hope so because you are absolutely right.

DammitLloyd · Apr 14, 2020

I hope every open world game will at least look this good with better textures. Keep in mind tho that even a 2080ti struggles to run this game at 4k max settings, frames are likely around 40fps. XSX is just below a 2080 Ti

linear games should exceed it since R* was able to achieve that level of visual in an open world game.

Crossing Eden · Apr 14, 2020

Coríu said:
I'll never understand why people crave higher and higher fidelity when the environments are still so frustratingly stale when it comes to responsiveness and interactivity. Incredibly beautiful and detailed worlds that feel like they're pasted on a green screen.

Play more immersive sim games.

Nintendo said:
Close as in it would look basically the same to the eye from a normal viewing distance. Games don't have to have infinite details and insane draw distances.

It wouldn't look the same though. Take a look at that boat scene for example. If any dev came out with a game looking like that heads would explode. A bump like this is a more realistic expectation, (the left is 2014 1060/60fps trailer drake)

video games are still gonna be looking like video games. Especially during gameplay. You think the next gen consoles were gonna be rtx super tier based on the expectations presented in this thread. And good lord are those in-engine benchmarks gonna mislead expectations.

Hey Please · Apr 14, 2020

ResetEraVetVIP I forgot to mention that this the following is what I am looking for in next gen in terms of animation- locomotion that takes into account limb position tracking and inertia. Look at how neither of them slide around miraculously in their position when altering posture and/or position. On top of that, look at the hit reaction:

Moebius · Apr 14, 2020

I hope hair tech improves. It's still just typically a flat texture with some parts of it animated. It looks terrible. I hope that we can finally get some good hair tech next gen so we can get a new Bloody Roar game.

Zedelima · Apr 14, 2020

Hey Please said:
ResetEraVetVIP I forgot to mention that this the following is what I am looking for in next gen in terms of animation- locomotion that takes into account limb position tracking and inertia. Look at how neither of them slide around miraculously in their position when altering posture and/or position. On top of that, look at the hit reaction:

But that is because the hardware power or some sort of new tech or even the dev that took the time to do that way?

prodyg · Apr 14, 2020

Zedelima said:
I have some questions while reading this thread
Can we expect a bigger pump in details(enviroment, lighting and etc) than character models?
Can we expect devs to "aim higher" with set pieces? Like Thor smashing Kratos on a entire montain or things like that?

Ray tracing alone can make environments and lighting look much better and as far as set pieces go the new CPU power is gonna make that much better as well.

prodyg · Apr 14, 2020

DavidDesu said:
Still amazing that consoles are being downplayed yet again. Remember when The Order trailer was revealed, real time on PS4 and NOBODY believed it?

Well after what happened with the Killzone 2 trailer, can you blame ppl for being cynical?

The Artisan · Apr 14, 2020

Nintendo · Apr 14, 2020

Crossing Eden said:
Play more immersive sim games.

It wouldn't look the same though. Take a look at that boat scene for example. If any dev came out with a game looking like that heads would explode. A bump like this is a more realistic expectation, (the left is 2014 1060/60fps trailer drake)

video games are still gonna be looking like video games. Especially during gameplay. You think the next gen consoles were gonna be rtx super tier based on the expectations presented in this thread. And good lord are those in-engine benchmarks gonna mislead expectations.

I'm sure we'll see significantly better looking characters next-gen. That Drake and this Joel models run on a 2013 PS4. We'll see a massive jump in fidelity on PS5.

Why are you hung up on that boat scene? Even if the water won't be that good, that doesn't mean the overall quality won't close.

Graphic Fidelity I Expect Next Gen.

▲ Legend ▲

Chicken Chaser

Prophet of Regret

▲ Legend ▲

"Angels are singing in monasteries..."

Prophet of Regret