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Sho_Nuff82

Member
Nov 14, 2017
18,515
Ehh, its not that Lois has died (or whatever event) its just that he comes to the realization that whatever systems he believed in just doesn't work, on top of the fact he's in a unique place to 'fix' them by the nature of who he is.

Its not exactly 'one bad day'

I thought Red Son was the most interesting take on this, because rather than trying to lead by example, he leads by giving people better technology and a social system that works. And Americans resent him for it out of all countries in the world. But Red Son Superman notably isn't evil (maybe lawful neutral), so I don't know if he'd fall into the pattern that Morrison is criticizing here.
 

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,103
Irredeemable is a very interesting take-because it really shows how nightmarish this scenario would be. That said-I just found it SO mean spirited and constantly oppressive - it's a really tough read.

I thought Red Son was the most interesting take on this, because rather than trying to lead by example, he leads by giving people better technology and a social system that works. And Americans resent him for it out of all countries in the world. But Red Son Superman notably isn't evil (maybe lawful neutral), so I don't know if he'd fall into the pattern that Morrison is criticizing here.
And I agree-I like this one. Which-hard to believe-is written by Millar.
 

VanWinkle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,100
I don't mind it. I mean, evil Superman is not "my Superman," but I still enjoy an alternate take. That's what's so great about fiction. Anybody can be anything. It's actually a surprisingly gatekeeping mentality from Morrison, who is known for their, "who cares, it's just a comic book" way of thinking.
 

KtotheRoc

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
56,782
Kinda off topic, but is there an "evil Spider-Man" equivalent to the Superman stuff?
Superior doesn't really count since it was Doc Ock just LARPing as Spider-Man.

We've seen this concept a few times across various AU stories. They usually play up Spidey as a selfish character instead of a tyrant who wants to conquer the world.
 

tsmoreau

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,448
Irredeemable is a very interesting take-because it really shows how nightmarish this scenario would be. That said-I just found it SO mean spirited and constantly oppressive - it's a really tough read.


And I agree-I like this one. Which-hard to believe-is written by Millar.
Red-Son was half ghosted written by Morrison, or something similar. Prolly why it's outside the corrupted authority figure being criticized here

Similar thing for the OG Authority comics too re: stuff half ghost written by Morrison
 

timrtabor123

Member
Feb 11, 2019
1,020
Cynicism (and hefty does of misinterpretation of the bedrock of the character by spin-off media sans the three CW shows and DCAU) killed Superman. Simply put, people just can't fathom a dude with power being a genuinely good dude like Superman in a world where a reality TV star was president for a long 4 years and got only a baby slap on the wrist for his crimes if you're being generous.
 

Compbros

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,660
Grant Morrison has offered their observations on the subversive trend

That word is as misused as Superman himself.

Onto the topic, I swear once a month I have to discuss Superman and him being "evil" is what would make him interesting. I've seen way too many assertions that "Homelander/Omni-man is how you do Superman", which speaks to a fundamental misunderstanding of the character. People only see the powers and big strong so they perceive a lack of challenge (despite Supes being challenged constantly) so the way to make him interesting is for a lesser being to overcome him but you can't have the villain be lesser than the hero because you can't root for that. I always implore people to pick up a Supes book, I offered several of my log-ins to friends and gave them recommendations, one straight up went "you can do that but I'm not gonna like it because he's an OP God".

Superman is just a farmer from Kansas with powers. He's a good guy that wants the world to be as good as possible. He's a reporter that fights against things like government corruption, corporate waste, injustices in society, and the like and then throws on the red and blue to stop a bank robbery. Superman is an incredible person first and the world's greatest hero second but characters don't matter to a lot of people, action does.

Edit:
Cynicism (and hefty does of misinterpretation of the bedrock of the character by spin-off media sans the three CW shows and DCAU) killed Superman. Simply put, people just can't fathom a dude with power being a genuinely good dude like Superman in a world where a reality TV star was president for a long 4 years and got only a baby slap on the wrist if you're being generous.

Absolutely, my friend's co-worker was slid one of my Superman rants and found a new appreciation for him because she "would be a villain" and the embodiment of "who gon' check me, boo".
 

Bizazedo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,735
That's why I've always thought Superman vs The Elite should be done in live action. It actually addresses why Supes is a good character.
 

cakely

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,149
Chicago
Didn't he write JLA: Earth 2? Doesn't Ultraman qualify as "evil Superman"?

I liked JLA: Earth 2, by the way. The Frank Quitely art sure doesn't hurt.
 

take_marsh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,333
You got to post all of it
780jzq.jpg

Is this supposed to be a comedy?
 

Witness

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,877
New York
Evil Superman fucking sucks and fuck WB/DC for continuously shoving evil Superman in as much media as possible. It feels like I've seen evil or anti hero Superman more often in media now than classic Supes.
 

8byte

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt-account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,880
Kansas
Its definitely not for everybody but I take it at this point considering my main favorite Superhero Batman is pretty much permanently stuck in the opposite camp of
Always depressed
Always resets/defaults to loner/solo
And nothing he can ever do will ever actually work because comic books.

Shoot, that's actually really interesting, I'd never thought about that angle for Batman. I'd only ever given thought to him spending his billions to beat up bad guys. As much as Superman deserves some time to just make mistakes and lose his temper / be imperfect, Batman deserves a few fleeting moments of happiness & a break from his sorrow, lol.
 

Sesha

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,856
It's a pretty base What If concept. And like most What Ifs, there really isn't much to it.

Unless you really spend the time to figure out like, okay, how, in believable terms, does Superman turn evil? Superman turning bad after a single event says a lot about the writer and how they view the character.

You got to post all of it
780jzq.jpg

This whole sequence out of context is pretty comical.
 

Radnom

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,030
The core idea of Superman is already the twist, "what if the most powerful person was a good guy?"

Grant Morrison clearly understands that. I really like reading Morrison's takes on superheroes. They sometimes get a bit too metaphysical for me to follow, but they also write some of my favourite comics.
 

Caz

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,055
Canada
Yup. Evil Superman is so lazy.
The father we all want.
2731973-1027_4_030-723438.jpg

Only joking; I agree with Morrison's "Superman being evil is really stupid". The only time it really "works" is in stuff like Red Son where he's authoritarian but still believes he's doing the right thing (he kills Stalin because of all the pain his leadership has caused to people) or in the animated series where Superman's mind is altered and thus isn't aware of the consequences of his actions i.e. him invading Earth. And even the latter only "works" in how it developed the DCAU because of how subversive/terrifying the idea of Superman turning on humanity was, and the DCAU did ask questions about the lengths he and other superheroes would go to (see the Justice League episode "Clash" as a perfect example or even "A Better World" for your otherworld authoritarian Superman and why the real Superman would never go that route) that played out in the Cadmus storyline in seasons 3-4.
Kinda off topic, but is there an "evil Spider-Man" equivalent to the Superman stuff?
Superior doesn't really count since it was Doc Ock just LARPing as Spider-Man.
Pre and during the Clone Saga, Spidey was a bit of a jerk (Peter Spidey, to be clear; he once clocked a pregnant Mary Jane when it was revealed that he was the clone), but that's about all I can really think of.
petehitsmj3.jpg
 
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ceej

Member
Mar 9, 2021
4,299
Reno, Nv.
I thought Red Son was the most interesting take on this, because rather than trying to lead by example, he leads by giving people better technology and a social system that works. And Americans resent him for it out of all countries in the world. But Red Son Superman notably isn't evil (maybe lawful neutral), so I don't know if he'd fall into the pattern that Morrison is criticizing here.
yeah, I loved Red Son. Works much better than an evil superman.
 
Oct 12, 2020
1,162
I agree and i fell like the whole world is agreeing with Lex Luther: "No man can be as powerful as Superman and not be corrupted, because even i was corrupted through power and i am not a bad person!"

It is fitting, that our world is run by billionaires, who all think, that they are in the right. Because they make money, aka a sign of "wisdom and intelligence", and you need to break or make the rules to make anything work. Even our media reflects that, since there are so many Evil Superman stories (even paid by some indirectly billionaires and millionaires). As if we need to make excuses to them. "It isn't there fault, that they are corrupted, even Superman can become evil".

That is the great aspect about Superman, which is forgotten in the modern zeitgeist. Maybe there is a chance to be powerful and still stay good. Maybe those rich and powerful people are just ignored bad guys, who make excuses, why they never tried a righteous way. A world, where Superman can be seen as a inspiration and not as unbelievable standard, may has a chance to be better.
 

Sendero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
897
The criticism of being lazy for using the same basic tropes, is a fair criticism.


Still, Superman is not human, so his mental/fortitude limits are open to interpretation (unless of course you go the DC official stats/facts route).
He was created in a time where being a hero equaled to be an outstanding "boy scout".

But really, is incredibly easy to imagine how such concept would have a hard time translating to modern times, where a substantial amount of the population would either hate him (for being alien, or for fear, being incompatible with the concept of "God", etc), abuse his trust or would be eager to troll him every second of his life, just for the lulz..knowing that there would be no harsh consequences.

Without more superheroes to help him, without multiple friends able to guide him, and with Governments eager to use and abuse his existence to gain the upperhand on other nations (specially USA), it it's conceivable that he would eventually crack and maybe even be filmed lashing badly, causing local destruction. - At that point, is over for him.. the whole world would turn against him, knowing that he is fallible, and thus a potential danger for everyone.


Evil/authoritarian Superman is honestly, a logical consequence.
That's why he needs to be written as a super human (beyond normal limits). Society can't handle a regular person, with God like powers.
 

JCG

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,546
The idea itself may be flawed, but you can still tell interesting stories with it, regardless of the argument presented by Morrison.
 

mbpm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,889
Morrison doing something relating to the Authority as mentioned in the OP is interesting in itself based on these statements. The Authority was a team that basically carried out the idea of "What if superheroes could just overthrow dictators, take out state officials, if they deemed them evil enough?"

I enjoyed the heck out of them as a teen while recognizing now what that would mean in the world.
 

bastardly

Member
Nov 8, 2017
10,603
eh, that analogy is shit. we all unfortunately wlll lose loved ones in our lives, but who has a loved one murdered because they are trying to specifically hurt you?

and i never read or played much of the injustice games, and I dont want to defend snyders Supe, but that dude was MISERABLE. he never looked happy helping people, the only time he was ever happy it seemed was with lois, so i guess if there was a version of supe to get turned it would be his shitty version.

anywho, wasn't the whole plan to turn him using anti-life anyways?
 

Orayn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,055
People grab for Evil Supes because he's iconic and the idea is accessible and plenty scary. That said, you can argue that it has more in common with an alien invasion story, i.e. "What if this incredibly powerful Other looked at humanity with either total indifference or contempt."

If you make evil super individual a relatively normal person with a cruel streak, incredible power, and a vision for how they want the world to be, you get something more along the lines of Death Note almost, though perhaps without the secrecy depending on their methods.

A more down to earth superfash scenario would be Bruce Wayne or Tony Stark providing peace and security with private military police and extensions to the existing surveillance state, and they don't even need powers to do that.
 
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HStallion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
62,378
It all comes down to execution. Poor writing will make for a lackluster Superman as it will an evil Superman. I don't think one idea is inherently superior to the other in of itself. With most things this stuff comes in waves and I have no doubt in the near future we'll have the general consensus be that evil Superman is done to death and lame while a pure hearted good guy Supes is refreshing and a return to form.
 

mbpm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,889
In terms of the One Bad Day thing, I think that could happen tbh. But it wouldn't really be a surprise the way that some comics kind of simplify and paint it. Either it'd be a lot of stress buildup over time (so not one bad day) or that person would already have been known to have some sort of temper/instability
 

olag

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,106
The concept of an evil superman isn't interesting on the surface but neither do I find the concept of the struggle of being superman that compelling either.Its all about the quality of writing.

For example even though you can dismiss the boys and invincible as violent and crass , I find the back stories and the primary motivations of the "antagonists" a lot more interesting than good boy does good things weekly. Maybe that means I'm just cynical.
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,395
But isn't the whole point that Superman has the power to change things? Evil Superman stories usually go the "we tried it the nice way, now we try it the hard way"

This interview actually is about an upcoming comic where Morrison is writing Superman crossing some of his usual lines. He's just trying to say that he isn't writing an evil Superman in spite of that which is why he brings up the idea of Lois' death turning him evil.

"I think there's a certain degree of, if he's that powerful, couldn't he change things? We're kind of leaning into the idea that he's a really good man and wants to do the best for us but he's not actually human. He doesn't want to break us but he's gotten to the point where he thinks maybe he should break us, maybe we need this," Morrison continues. "It's slightly scarier than Superman as an authoritarian dad with heat vision eyes, it's more of an alien perspective saying, 'I've had enough of you. You've been messing up too long and are really going to hurt yourselves if I don't do something.'"
 
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mbpm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,889
This interview actually is about an upcoming book where Morrison is writing Superman crossing some of his usual lines. He's just trying to say that he isn't writing an evil Superman in spite of that which is why he brings up the idea of Lois' death turning him evil.
Ah so that's why he's heading the Authority
 

Dekim

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,335
This is something I always thought about with Injustice. Yes, Clark being tricked into killing Louis would devastate and enrage him, and will make him more cynical, but to the point of being a dictator of all of Earth? By the time of the events of Injustice happened, Clark had been Superman for a while, and likely encountered and experienced all sorts of fucked up shit villains did to him and his friends (superhero or otherwise). If Clark was this susceptible to going down this dark path, why didn't he flip out much earlier?
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,734
But at the same time, Evil Superman can be used as a way to show how our own worst impulses can overtake the best in us. For example, how after 9/11 people in the US justified all kinds of horrible things and used the violence and tragedy inflicted upon us to justify it.

The problem is that we pretty much stopped doing Normal Superman and now only do Evil Superman, so the shock value that the metaphor created is gone. It's largely been normalized and the point of it, to ask us to examine our own actions after facing great acts of violence/tragedy, is gone. It no longer becomes a call for self-examination, but just another edgy book.

I can't ever recall a time where Evil Superman was written as an self-aware allegory or metaphor for humans doing evil things because of their impulses.

Evil Superman is almost always an indulgence for the writer(s), and often unimaginatively so.
 
Dec 12, 2017
3,000
Evil Superman is dumb and always will be. The whole point of Superman is to be the antithesis of humanities evils. Otherwise they wouldn't have picked a Jesus story to go with in the first place.
 

chromefrog

Member
Nov 26, 2017
374
I think it hasn't been explored very thoughtfully, but generally I do think it's better to have overpowered villains rather than heroes. Def right that Supes being evil is stupid tho
 
Dec 30, 2020
15,410
Evil Superman is kind of a worthless idea. Real life already gives an enormous sense of being powerless in the face of a hideous number of crushing truths. Making an evil flying super human who we are also powerless against is just, "well thanks for another thing to worry about, add that to the pile."
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,588
Racoon City
I don't think Lois dying being the catalyst is really good either but then again HOW Lois dies is important. If she dies to natural causes then yea. But if she's murdered, given the fact he was raised in the same US as most of us. It's not too inconceivable that he would believe in punitive punishment and realises he has the means to do such. The other alternative is if Martha and Jon treated him terribly as a child because they were terrified of him, which realistically makes sense too.

Though one can argue as we can repeatedly observe through history that absolute power corrupts absolutely and that eventually he would do something morally ambiguous and it becomes a slippery slope from there. He might not flat out kill, but then again he might because he can and no one can really stop him.

But ultimately I don't really like the evil superman trope, but I do like exploring the theme through his expys. Morally ambiguous Superman stories are cool though.
 

PHOENIXZERO

Member
Oct 29, 2017
12,193
Evil Superman is dumb and always will be. The whole point of Superman is to be the antithesis of humanities evils. Otherwise they wouldn't have picked a Jesus story to go with in the first place.
*Moses story seeing as he was created by two Jews though that doesn't originate with Moses either. Much of the Jesus metaphor bullshit was introduced largely thanks to the Donner movie.

That said, I agree. Evil Superman isn't Superman.
 

sven

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,544
It's the only time Superman is even remotely interesting. I'm not surprised an overrated hack like Morrison disagrees though. The man has never written an interesting story so I'm not shocked he doesn't know what one looks like.
 

Clay

Member
Oct 29, 2017
8,191
I don't really know enough about Superman to comment very confidently here, but isn't the idea "I lost my parents and didn't become a tyrant" kind of ridiculous? Unless you have Superman's power at your disposal it doesn't matter how you would react to a traumatic event. I'm sure many people would like to watch the world burn in the wake of a traumatic event, but only Superman (or whichever usually-good superhero) can act on that impulse.

There may be other legitimate reasons that Superman should never be evil, but that reasoning in particular seems silly.
 

Ignatz Mouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,746
That word is as misused as Superman himself.

Onto the topic, I swear once a month I have to discuss Superman and him being "evil" is what would make him interesting. I've seen way too many assertions that "Homelander/Omni-man is how you do Superman", which speaks to a fundamental misunderstanding of the character. People only see the powers and big strong so they perceive a lack of challenge (despite Supes being challenged constantly) so the way to make him interesting is for a lesser being to overcome him but you can't have the villain be lesser than the hero because you can't root for that. I always implore people to pick up a Supes book, I offered several of my log-ins to friends and gave them recommendations, one straight up went "you can do that but I'm not gonna like it because he's an OP God".

Superman is just a farmer from Kansas with powers. He's a good guy that wants the world to be as good as possible. He's a reporter that fights against things like government corruption, corporate waste, injustices in society, and the like and then throws on the red and blue to stop a bank robbery. Superman is an incredible person first and the world's greatest hero second but characters don't matter to a lot of people, action does.

Edit:


Absolutely, my friend's co-worker was slid one of my Superman rants and found a new appreciation for him because she "would be a villain" and the embodiment of "who gon' check me, boo".

Yay this post.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,081
Morrison is right, and Injustice read like its premise came from an angsty 13 year old. Or, well, the Mortal Kombat team.

The whole point of Superman is that despite his power and invincibility, it's his humanity that is his greatest strength. He could easily subjugate all of humankind, but his moral compass and humility prevents that from ever happening. There are many good stories showing his failings, but all attempts to make him evil are basically the equivalent of "heheh, hey Beavis, what if Mister Rogers started killing people".