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Nov 16, 2017
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Sure but his training is almost entirely in French cuisine and while he's certainly a skilled chef is at this point a household name because of how sweary he is on TV.

In terms of that necessarily making him a worthwhile touchstone for parsing Asian cuisine (which, again, hell of a broad definition there) I may as well be looking to Yo-Yo Ma for interpretations of reggae music
I think you are pretty naive in terms of how ignorant a lot of people are about food. There are millions of people in this world that has never had Indian food, or Mediterranean food, but they might know of Gordon Ramsey as this one celebrity chef who curses a lot. Those people might decide to try this restaurant one day and then it can be a gateway for them to start liking asian cuisine.
 

andymcc

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I think if you are peddling food from a culture or background other than your own you shouldn't call it authentic. Authentic speaks to actuality and undisputed origin. If you are not a representative of the ethnicity or nationality responsible for the cuisine, I don't think you have the right to call it authentic.

While I see what you're saying, but a lot of Asian food IS borrowed food too.
 

House_Of_Lightning

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I get what you're saying too. We seem to interpret the meaning and connotations of the words oppositely. Maybe that means neither words are appropriate if they have different meanings to different people. It's a topic that interests me personally very much.

I think I would still say authentic sounds more misrepresentative than traditional but that's also only been my experience as a consumer. I'm happy to listen and learn for sure.


I edited my post to add the following:

"Also, how far down the authentic/traditional rabbit hole are we ready to go?

As we discussed in last months Food Appropriation thread, food has a murky and melting pot tradition. Cantonese style ribs aren't Cantonese in origin but taken from other cultures. Black America probably has the best rights to lay claim to mac n cheese but mac in cheese is rooted in Swiss culinary tradition. Delta Tamales in Mississippi are a staple in black communities and in black owned restaurants but are lifted wholesale from Mexican immigrants."

I think we'd probably see the above co-mingling and the like of food more often than not, to be honest. And if that's the case then "authentic" is probably meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

I always come down on the side of "don't be a dick". My wife wants me to open a food truck when I finally get burned out on IT and I'd probably do something like jianbingguozi, which was one of my favorite foods when living in Shanghai and is very versatile. Though I probably wouldn't call it traditional or authentic as a whole cause, living in Texas, I'd have to put some brisket into one of them.

That seems to be the general MO as well. Rarely do you come across some white asshole calling his restaurant "Mi So Horni" but it happens and I understand how those outliers influence the overall narrative.
 

House_Of_Lightning

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I think you are pretty naive in terms of how ignorant a lot of people are about food. There are millions of people in this world that has never had Indian food, or Mediterranean food, but they might know of Gordon Ramsey as this one celebrity chef who curses a lot. Those people might decide to try this restaurant one day and then it can be a gateway for them to start liking asian cuisine.

Sure but his training is almost entirely in French cuisine and while he's certainly a skilled chef is at this point a household name because of how sweary he is on TV.

In terms of that necessarily making him a worthwhile touchstone for parsing Asian cuisine (which, again, hell of a broad definition there) I may as well be looking to Yo-Yo Ma for interpretations of reggae music

To piggy back off of these two posts here: I wouldn't trust Ramsay to make good Asian food unless he has just spent a ton of time and effort learning it. And I doubt he has.

There's a Pad Thai video out there of Ramsay making it for one of the best Thai cooks in the UK (?) and he completely butchers it. He was knocked down a peg, swag and all.

That said, he's apparently just sticking his name on it and the menu is up to someone else. I don't know anything about them to set proper expectations.
 

Finale Fireworker

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Would it really depend on the Chef? I brought him up earlier but David Schlosser is one of the few white guys with the resume to claim his food as authentic (there's maybe 5 of them if we're real). But I don't think a lot of people have his dedication to another countries culture like that dude has with Japan.

There's a really interesting discussion to be had about Gordon maybe reinforcing Orentislist ideals but we haven't seen how the restaurant actually looks and feels.

It certainly could. I guess it could be argued that somebody's relationship with the culture they are inspired by should come in to play, but I don't know who the judge should be. Their professional peers? Their customers? Food critics? I don't really know.

While I see what you're saying, but a lot of Asian food IS borrowed food too.
I edited my post to add the following:

Yeah, definitely. Food is a universal human experience and no cuisine develops or evolves in a vacuum. Everybody's cooking is inspired or influenced by cooking from elsewhere. Really, claims of authenticity and the like really don't make any sense with an umbrella as broad as "Asian." That could mean almost anything. What is authenticity without specificity?

I think there are a lot of factors to consider here. The chef themselves, how they are marketing it, how they are profiting from it, etc. I will never have the insight to say what is or isn't disrespectful to cultures other than my own. I recognize that there is an issue that needs to be addressed here. I've been interested for some time what the solution could be.
 

Deleted member 2761

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smh all of you thinking the point of the first two panels of the comic are about criticizing kids. Sure, there's a conversation to be had about teaching kids to be accepting of the different and unfamiliar when it comes to other cultures, but the point of the comic is to juxtapose how those kids matured and grew to "appreciate" the culture they once mocked, but despite that "appreciation", the Asian was still excluded. We Asians read the message loud and clear. Again, if you didn't catch that, it's because you lack this cultural context, so have some goddamn humility instead of getting butthurt assuming we're unfairly judging your children. It's not about them. It's about the adults they grew up to be.
 

andymcc

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Yeah, definitely. Food is a universal human experience and no cuisine develops or evolves in a vacuum. Everybody's cooking is inspired or influenced by cooking from elsewhere. Really, claims of authenticity and the like really don't make any sense with an umbrella as broad as "Asian." That could mean almost anything.

Honestly, most "Asian" fusion restaurants suck. One of the things that's kind of strange about this venture is Gordon's own aversion to that sort of food.
 

Deleted member 12224

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smh all of you thinking the point of the first two panels of the comic are about criticizing kids. Sure, there's a conversation to be had about teaching kids to be accepting of the different and unfamiliar when it comes to other cultures, but the point of the comic is to juxtapose how those kids matured and grew to "appreciate" the culture they once mocked, but at the same time highlight that despite that "appreciation", the Asian was still excluded. We Asians read the message loud and clear. Again, if you didn't catch that, it's because you lack this cultural context, so have some goddamn humility instead of getting butthurt assuming we're unfairly judging your children.
Is there a phenomenon of Asian Americans getting excluded from eating at trendy restaurants that we're supposed to be aware of, which you reference in the bolded part of thise post? And can you provide something beyond anecdotes, feelings, or what you perceive to be true for this?
 

Deleted member 2761

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Is there a phenomenon of Asian Americans getting excluded from eating at trendy restaurants that we're supposed to be aware of, which you reference in the bolded part of thise post? And can you provide something beyond anecdotes, feelings, or what you perceive to be true for this?

Dude, the topic is literally about Gordon cashing in on Orientalism and hiring a white dude to head his Asian restaurant. If I hold your hand any more you better take me out for dinner.
 

F2BBm3ga

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The point I was trying to make is not "people from different cultures are better at making the food from another, but rather that I consider it bullshit to believe that the chef has to come from the came cultural background than the food he is preparing. Which is what some people here seem to suggest. Growing up in Italy doesn't make you a any better at making pizza than someone born and raised in Australia. As I said, the pizza I had in Japan in various places was way better than some of the pizza I had in Italy. And I greatly appriciated the distinctly japanese variants they added.
If the apartheid-esque idea of food preparation some here some to promote was a thing, the culinary world would be a lot poorer

Actually, I dont think anyone said that. I think you are misunderstanding some posters who were discussing the optics of it all. Literally nobody said a chef has to come from a certain culture in order to make food from said culture.
 

Deleted member 12224

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Dude, the topic is literally about Gordon cashing in on Orientalism and hiring a white dude to head his Asian restaurant. If I hold your hand any more you better take me out for dinner.
You reference the comic and people misinterpreting it, I make note of the comic explicitly telling the two in the back specifically it was full. It's one of two points in the second panel. This isn't hard.
 

Yams

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I have a legit question. Does anyone feel it's kind of racist when people turn up their noses at expensive ethnic food? A lot of people look at Mexican and Chinese food as some dirty poor people food that must be eaten at a hole-in-the-wall place.
 

plus

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Is there a phenomenon of Asian Americans getting excluded from eating at trendy restaurants that we're supposed to be aware of, which you reference in the bolded part of thise post? And can you provide something beyond anecdotes, feelings, or what you perceive to be true for this?

The point of the 2nd panel of the comic wasn't to say that Asian Americans were being physically excluded from trendy restaurants lol, it was to drive home the point that Asians were forgotten about in the midst of all the hype of this crazy new food trend despite them being the basis for said food trend before it became appropriated to hell
 

Snowy

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Nov 11, 2017
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Honestly the only thing that I don't like about it is how it's positioned as "authentic Asian". Like... what's authentic about it? Which Asian food culture?

How can you have an "authentic" decor and menu made up of a dozen cultures. And if that's the thought process then it reeks of the banality of simply lumping fairly different cultures together, often with antagonistic histories, simply because they're both "Asian".

If that's the case then it seems a bit careless and comes down to simply a gimmick. Marketing. Insincere window dressing.

And at that point, for me, it becomes "appropriation" not in the simple academic sense of simple acknowledgement of one culture adopting another but instead it's appropriative in the negative connotation where it is one culture is exploiting another.


The comic posted above is good and bad. The second panel illustrates the above, though lumping Bourdain In with the hipsters is bad form. The first panel? Not so much. Kids with bad manners and finding unfamiliar foods gross until they're older is just kind of a thing all kids do.

I mean it's going for a specific aesthetic, "drinking den", I assume it's just going to have food of more than one ethnicity, hence "Asian", with Ramsay's usual attempt to be reasonably respectful of the cuisine, itself, and by proxy the culture that produced it, hence "authentic".
 

House_Of_Lightning

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I have a legit question. Does anyone feel it's kind of racist when people turn up their noses at expensive ethnic food? A lot of people look at Mexican and Chinese food as some dirty poor people food that must be eaten at a hole-in-the-wall place.

Yes.

There was a thread a month or so back that ultimately centered around this. For example the idea that "authentic" Mexican food needs to be in some rundown bodega/taqueria to be authentic.
 

Deleted member 12224

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The point of the 2nd panel of the comic wasn't to say that Asian Americans were being physically excluded from trendy restaurants lol, it was to drive home the point that Asians were forgotten about in the midst of all the hype of this crazy new food trend despite them being the basis for said food trend before it became appropriated to hell
Yeah, I get that there's an attempt to convey that in the second panel by showing people not getting into a crowded restaurant.
 

andymcc

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I have a legit question. Does anyone feel it's kind of racist when people turn up their noses at expensive ethnic food? A lot of people look at Mexican and Chinese food as some dirty poor people food that must be eaten at a hole-in-the-wall place.

Yes. Like when people assume Chinese food should never be expensive.

Or how white critics tend to shit on how "ornate" Asian food (expensive Chinese food, Japanese kaiseki, etc.) is plated.
 

House_Of_Lightning

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Yeah, I get that there's an attempt to convey that in the second panel by showing people not getting into a crowded restaurant.

Yeah, I get that there's an attempt to convey that in the second panel by showing people not getting into a crowded restaurant.
The takeaway I got from the second panel was the fake (?) Bourdain quote next to a head shot of a pretty boy celebrity chef.
 

Deleted member 2761

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I have a legit question. Does anyone feel it's kind of racist when people turn up their noses at expensive ethnic food? A lot of people look at Mexican and Chinese food as some dirty poor people food that must be eaten at a hole-in-the-wall place.

A good question! Yes, I think it is, and there was a topic of discussion in a similar thread discussing how Western views of how ethnic food should be are dressed up in "authenticity" and how the Western expectation (referred to there as "white supremacy", which automatically turned people off) that our food and decor should be exotic and cheap is racist. The thread was similarly a shitshow as well.
 

dlauv

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Yeah, it might be appropriation, but honestly it's a dirtier word than it should be. A lot of appropriation happens that is completely benign.

He fucked up Pad Thai tho

I'm not sure if this is supposed to be ironic, but he really didn't. That clip is him making a dish for a group of monks, and the Pad Thai king, who usually prepares the dish for the monks, turns his nose up at it. They had a taste-off and the monks ended up preferring Ramsay's dish.
 

Yams

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Yes.

There was a thread a month or so back that ultimately centered around this. For example the idea that "authentic" Mexican food needs to be in some rundown bodega/taqueria to be authentic.

Yes. Like when people assume Chinese food should never be expensive.

Or how white critics tend to shit on how "ornate" Asian food (expensive Chinese food, Japanese kaiseki, etc.) is plated.

Yeah it's always rubbed me the wrong way. Even my Mexican friend's push this shit.
 

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Yeah, it might be appropriation, but honestly it's a dirtier word than it should be. A lot of appropriation happens that is completely benign.



I'm not sure if this is supposed to be ironic, but he really didn't. That clip is him making a dish for a group of monks, and the Pad Thai king, who usually prepares the dish for the monks, turns his nose up at it. They had a taste-off and the monks ended up preferring Ramsay's dish.
That's why it's called cultural appropriation because that's what it is in this case. Context matters and you can't neuter the word just because you don't like how it's used.
 

dlauv

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That's why it's called cultural appropriation because that's what it is in this case. Context matters and you can't neuter the word just because you don't like how it's used.

I don't know if you're agreeing with me, but I agree with you. Cultural appropriation is a dirtier phrase than it should be because a lot of it is benign. It's the connotation surrounding the word that gets a bad rap due to recent events and past atrocities, rather than the day-to-day, benign, objective application.

I think Ramsay opening up an upscale restaurant like this is a benign case of cultural appropriation.
 

Yams

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A good question! Yes, I think it is, and there was a topic of discussion in a similar thread discussing how Western views of how ethnic food should be are dressed up in "authenticity" and how the Western expectation (referred to there as "white supremacy", which automatically turned people off) that our food and decor should be exotic and cheap is racist. The thread was similarly a shitshow as well.

It's really hard to discuss orientalism on this forum because most people don't understand it or will straight up ignore it
 

Xenon

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I have a legit question. Does anyone feel it's kind of racist when people turn up their noses at expensive ethnic food? A lot of people look at Mexican and Chinese food as some dirty poor people food that must be eaten at a hole-in-the-wall place.

It's not so much racism as it is being practical. Why pay more for less food that more often than not doesn't taste as good. A good quality mom and pop shop is simply better.
 

Deleted member 907

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I don't know if you're agreeing with me, but I agree with you. Cultural appropriation is a dirtier phrase than it should be because a lot of it is benign. It's the connotation surrounding the word that gets a bad rap due to recent events and past atrocities, rather than the day-to-day, benign, objective application.

I think Ramsay opening up an upscale restaurant like this is a benign case of cultural appropriation.
It isn't benign. It's fucking racist.
 

dlauv

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Read the article or look for it on HuffPo like I did. If you can't figure it out, then there isn't anything worth discussing since you clearly haven't read the entirety of this thread, muchless any 5 consecutive pages of it.

Nothing about it reads as overtly racist. At worst, people can draw parallels to colonization, and I wouldn't say something meant to be replicated and consumed is a 1:1 parallel to something like museums. People don't lose their shit about Pei Wei, and those restaurants have a much wider reach; this outrage is because Ramsay is Ramsay, and people want to force him into progressive, heterotopic decision-making even though the decisions he's making aren't dangerous or even that big of a blip on the map.
 
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Yams

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It's not so much racism as it is being practical. Why pay more for less food that more often than not doesn't taste as good. A good quality mom and pop shop is simply better.

I know a shop that makes pork belly and Uni tacos that not even the best mom and pop shop can touch. He had a hard time getting people to go to his shop too because people just wouldn't accept $4 dollar tacos.

The idea that Mexican and Chinese HAS to be cheap is just racist. Comes for a century old ideas about the people making them. It's pretty telling that the ex-imperialist nation of Japan is the one Asian cuisine people don't mind paying money for. It's almost like Japan has been selling themselves as a higher form of culture than other Asian nations for centuries.
 

Zen

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This is absolute nonsense lol.
http://amp.timeinc.net/time/4211871/chinese-food-history

But even while hordes of eaters chowed down at so-called "chow chow houses," the early American relationship with Chinese immigrants themselves was much less palatable. The group was already conspicuous for their foreign dress and contrasting language, and as gold resources declined, anti-Chinese sentiment grew. In spite of how admirable many Californians found the work ethic of Chinese laborers, this immigrant group was increasingly scapegoated for declining wages and fewer job opportunities. Eventually, that sentiment became law
And, despite the success of early Chinese restaurants in California, that food became a focal point of many an anti-Chinese argument. Prejudiced American groups were quick to label the growing numbers of Chinatowns in cities throughout the country as "nuisances," largely because of what was termed the unpleasant "stench" of Chinese kitchens, and many 19th century editorialists earnestly asked "Do the Chinese Eat Rats?"
The growing obsession with all things Chinese was fueled in large part by President Richard Nixon's famous 1972 visit to Beijing, the first time an American President had visited China since its 1949 Revolution. Demand for Chinese food, of whatever form, exploded overnight, with amazed eaters seeking out the Peking duck and multi-course Chinese feasts they had just witnessed the President eating on TV. Chinese restaurants proliferated in towns big and small.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/472983/
One of the big things that happened was that the Chinese did a live broadcast of President Nixon having a feast in Beijing's Great Hall of the People and sitting next to the paramount Chinese leaders having Peking duck. People just went crazy. At the time, the Chinese food that people knew about was chop suey, chow mein, egg rolls and the like, but it was no longer considered hip food. It was sort of boring and bland and nobody cared about it anymore. But suddenly, after seeing Nixon eating his Peking duck, people decided that they wanted "authentic Chinese food" like Nixon was eating in Beijing and like restaurants catering to Chinese populations were serving.
 

Xenon

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I know a shop that makes pork belly and Uni tacos that not even the best mom and pop shop can touch. He had a hard time getting people to go to his shop too because people just wouldn't accept $4 dollar tacos.

The idea that Mexican and Chinese HAS to be cheap is just racist. Comes for a century old ideas about the people making them. It's pretty telling that the ex-imperialist nation of Japan is the one Asian cuisine people don't mind paying money for. It's almost like Japan has been selling themselves as a higher form of culture than other Asian nations for centuries.


No it's not. Korean food has always been more expensive, no one has issues with that. It's simple a matter of market value. The fact that there is so many other options for that type of food at a lower price makes it unattractive. This has more to do with Chinese and Mexican restaurants being more prolific than anything else. Sure his tacos are better but maybe not enough for an extra 4-5 bucks a meal per person, assuming all other items are sold at a premium. Especially when there are probably several other options within the vicinity. As far as Japanese food, there are a much smaller number of restaurants and a pretty big spike in quality. Also, many Japanese places are run and owned by Koreans.

But things can change if businesses find the right angle. Look at what they did with burgers. You have people paying $20 for fancy ones piled with a bunch of crazy stuff. But most of these places created an idetity around it. Just selling better food at a higher price isn't enough.
 

Ravensmash

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Oct 25, 2017
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Because at face value this is just a rich celebrity chef going "I need a new market to exploit. I know. Asian!"

That's your presumption.

I could just as easily say that Gordon is a huge fan and feels like it's the right time for him to realise his dream of owning a restaurant that fits that vision.

(I don't know that, but my take is just as grounded in fact as yours)
 
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