Gordon Ramsay planning to open authentic Asian restaurant. People think it's cuisine appropriation.

[Etrian Oddity]

How can food be "aimed at white people?" What am I reading?

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You a restaurateur? You know anyone in the business? Serious question, do you have insight into the hospitality industry?

It's a running gag in the industry that you can gussy up the description of a dish, charge $5 more, and white people will eat it up. And that's not me being snarky--that's a common, real fucking tactic in the business.

Even in Ugly Delicious, David Chang broaches this topic with Ali Wong while they're eating dim sum. He [Chang] mentions how he couldn't believe they were getting like 10 soup dumplings for $6, and he mentioned how he could get away with charging $30 for it. Wong was only half-joking when she replied that's because he's serving a mostly white clientele, not a more discerning niche.

lol what does this even mean? You're proving how absurd the "appropriation" complaint actually is. Fucking everyone uses the word "authentic" for everything in the food world. No one cares, and you're not the arbitrer of what does and doesn't get to be called "authentic".

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Check your privilege of.... making 'authentic' (who the fuck defines what that even means?) food from a different culture?

Man. We're through the looking glass now, everybody.

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We're really going with the idea that there is no economic force at work enabling or altering the rate of success of white or non-white entrepreneurs, throughout western civilization?

American-Chinese food fucking came to be because there was no market for authentic Chinese food and because of hardcore racism from whites against Chinese Americans. Yall really gonna try to pretend there's nothing shame in a white dude coming along years later and championing himself as a savior of that cuisine? No one rolling their eyes?

I dunno if some of the posts in this thread are arguing in genuinely good faith. Clearly, because I explicitly stated that it isn't about just a white person cooking x ethnic cuisine, but the optics of it, and the gatekeeping slurs start coming out.

 

[Carolina Reaper]

Stop signal boosting dumbshits. Actually it's Fox doing that for obvious reasons.

 

[Curler]

that's nice.

this specific instance is a guy who was a chef at expensive asian restaurants in london.

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I'd have to see the menu prices, but pointing out that not all of his places are for "rich people". Depends on the dish conpared to an average price (if it's anything like American DTF, which I don't find is really worth the cost for what you get, compared to other dumpling places).

 

[NookSports]

Excessive policing of cultural appropriation is the equivalent of Trump's southern border wall.

Unless it's done with malicious intent, it shouldnt be shunned. If it's done ignorantly, then people should be charitably educated; and if done with respect, celebrated.

 

[Zoe]

Stop signal boosting dumbshits. Actually it's Fox doing that for obvious reasons.

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Again, Fox News wasn't the first outlet to write about this.

 

[Deleted member 12224]

Where are Italians being held back from succeeding in business?

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"If I answer the question it's devastating to my point."

 

[Deleted member 907]

I'm not using it to tell Asian people what they should think, as the meme goes.

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Yes. Yes you fucking do. Not only in this thread, but ALL threads like this one. I'm sure I can find similar posts in the Zimmern thread. You do it to me and a bunch of other Asians that have posted in this thread and other threads as well.

I love how you say you're so well versed in colonialism while you completely ignore the fact that the theme of the restaurant plays on colonialist stereotypes.

Having an Asian wife doesn't magically make you one of us and you will NEVER know what it's like to be Asian in the US, so don't go telling us what we can or can't be offended about or how something isn't appropriation.

 

[Deleted member 2761]

AsianERA: "Hey folks here's why we're concerned and why we think it's disrespectful."
ERA: "Fox is just using only 5 tweets to set off virtue-signaling white folks. I don't see why it's a big deal if it's done respectfully."

 

[Culex]

Best pizza I ever had was cooked by a Syrian refugee. "Authentic" is bullshit

 

[Tokyo_Funk]

I'm trained in French cookery, Italian/Greek and Japanese, but I'm Welsh/Scottish Australian. Never had a problem with it.

 

[Tom Penny]

Is this really an issue. Is every pizza place supposed to have an italian chef making pizza?

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Half the Pizza places near me are Greek.

 

[Hokahey]

You a restaurateur? You know anyone in the business? Serious question, do you have insight into the hospitality industry?

It's a running gag in the industry that you can gussy up the description of a dish, charge $5 more, and white people will eat it up. And that's not me being snarky--that's a common, real fucking tactic in the business.

Even in Ugly Delicious, David Chang broaches this topic with Ali Wong while they're eating dim sum. He [Chang] mentions how he couldn't believe they were getting like 10 soup dumplings for $6, and he mentioned how he could get away with charging $30 for it. Wong was only half-joking when she replied that's because he's serving a mostly white clientele, not a more discerning niche.


We're really going with the idea that there is no economic force at work enabling or altering the rate of success of white or non-white entrepreneurs, throughout western civilization?

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Yes, in fact I know some of the prominent restaurateurs in my city, and cater as a side job due to some the skills acquired through these kinships. I've NEVER heard these jokes. And never in reference to somehow tricking white people. These are people that takes their food and craft very seriously. There is no "gussying" something up to charge more. Not sure what kind of restaurants do this. None I know.

American-Chinese food fucking came to be because there was no market for authentic Chinese food and because of hardcore racism from whites against Chinese Americans.

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This is dead false. American Chinese food came from Chinese railway workers that opened restaurants in their communities, often times ASIAN COMMUNITIES. They then adapted some of their dishes utilizing local flavors. You know, fusion cuisine? These restaurants remain owned almost exclusively by the Asian community and retain dishes of THEIR creations that became popular.

Yall really gonna try to pretend there's nothing shame in a white dude coming along years later and championing himself as a savior of that cuisine? No one rolling their eyes?

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He claimed to be a savior of it? No. That's a lie. He claimed to offer an authentic version of it. Meaning staying true to recipes/flavors/ingredients. He's not allowed to do that because he's white? That's ludicrous. What percent of another race does one have to be, or how much time spent in a region a particular cuisine heralds from before that person is allowed to serve that cuisine for money? I have so many friends from so many cultures that thrill in teaching me because of my passion for learning the authentic recipes from the sources, and my love for cooking. I can only guess they'd be first in line if I opened a restaurant around the recipes they taught me. And if not, what food am I allowed to serve? What food is "white?"

 

[Deleted member 7130]

"If I answer the question it's devastating to my point."

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Indeed, lol. I was becoming disheartened seeng this thread become a circle jerk of people using the same out of context white role reversals/vacuum egalitarianism as any other dumb dumb argument that tries to downplay or erase minority plights in any other topic.

 

[F2BBm3ga]

Just out of curiousity,

If Gordon ramsey decided to do an "Authentic" soul food fine dining resturaunt experience, and offered to give you real authentic soul food in fine dining fashion with a the lead chef and menu designer as this white dude who has tons of experience in soul food resturaunts. How are the optics then? For those who dont get why the optics of the current situation are off. Are the optics there good too?

 

[Carolina Reaper]

Just out of curiousity,

If Gordon ramsey decided to do an "Authentic" soul food fine dining resturaunt experience, and offered to give you real authentic soul food in fine dining fashion with a the lead chef and menu designer as this white dude who has tons of experience in soul food resturaunts. How are the optics then? For those who dont get why the optics of the current situation are off. Are the optics there good too?

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It's food. I wouldn't give a shit.

 

[YuYu]

Just out of curiousity,

If Gordon ramsey decided to do an "Authentic" soul food fine dining resturaunt experience, and offered to give you real authentic soul food in fine dining fashion with a the lead chef and menu designer as this white dude who has tons of experience in soul food resturaunts. How are the optics then? For those who dont get why the optics of the current situation are off. Are the optics there good too?

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I don't see a problem.There's a bunch of turkish/arab owned italian restaurants in my city and I do not see why anyone would be upset about this.

 

[BocoDragon]

Yes. Yes you fucking do. Not only in this thread, but ALL threads like this one. I'm sure I can find similar posts in the Zimmern thread. You do it to me and a bunch of other Asians that have posted in this thread and other threads as well.

I love how you say you're so well versed in colonialism while you completely ignore the fact that the theme of the restaurant plays on colonialist stereotypes.

Having an Asian wife doesn't magically make you one of us and you will NEVER know what it's like to be Asian in the US, so don't go telling us what we can or can't be offended about or how something isn't appropriation.

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Sounds like you're just battling demons about "experts" and not me buddy. I only argue from the perspective of my personal beliefs about humanity generally being a place where ideas are rightly traded among all people as long as there is no ill will or mockery. You'd see me make the same points in a taco truck thread, has nothing to do with my personal relationships.

 

[MM300]

Just out of curiousity,

If Gordon ramsey decided to do an "Authentic" soul food fine dining resturaunt experience, and offered to give you real authentic soul food in fine dining fashion with a the lead chef and menu designer as this white dude who has tons of experience in soul food resturaunts. How are the optics then? For those who dont get why the optics of the current situation are off. Are the optics there good too?

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It's already happening.

https://www.highsnobiety.com/2017/03/08/soul-food-gentrification/

Key Quote:

"When the Paula Deen story broke, many black American chefs spoke out about how she was a disgrace to Southern culture, with some explicitly pointing out how, as black chefs, they are held back by racist beliefs that their cooking is "untrained," "low class" and high in saturated fats, while white Southern chefs creating the same types of food are seen as more professional, talented and well-respected; creating "comfort food" that appeals to the masses."

 

[F2BBm3ga]

It's food. I wouldn't give a shit.

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Would people consider food from a culture on the same level/similar as music from a culture?

They are both consumed, and both are to be shared, and both can provide nourishment (in different ways obviously).

 

[Yoshimitsu126]

Fuck wrong quote post lol

 

[Deleted member 52988]

If the crux of your argument is "optics", then you don't really have one.

 

[Yoshimitsu126]

AsianERA: "Hey folks here's why we're concerned and why we think it's disrespectful."
ERA: "Fox is just using only 5 tweets to set off virtue-signaling white folks. I don't see why it's a big deal if it's done respectfully."

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Forget it, it's western ethnocentrism.

 

[Carolina Reaper]

Would people consider food from a culture on the same level/similar as music from a culture?

They are both consumed, and both are to be shared, and both can provide nourishment (in different ways obviously).

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I don't care about music either. If it's good, it's good. Unless the artist is being willfully disrespectful obviously .

 

[F2BBm3ga]

I don't see a problem.There's a bunch of turkish/arab owned italian restaurants in my city and I do not see why anyone would be upset about this.

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I think people are missing the point. No one is complaining about that fast food chinese spot run by spanish people. This isnt what is being discussed

 

[smurfx]

Where are Italians being held back from succeeding in business?

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who's holding back asians from succeeding in the restaurant business?

 

[D i Z]

Sounds like you're just battling demons about "experts" and not me buddy. I only argue from the perspective of my personal beliefs about humanity generally being a place where ideas are rightly traded among all people as long as there is no ill will or mockery. You'd see me make the same points in a taco truck thread, has nothing to do with my personal relationships.

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You were the one that brought up your expertise and relationship. That's alllllll on you with that I know better shit.

 

[F2BBm3ga]

Sounds like you're just battling demons about "experts" and not me buddy.

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that just comes off as so condescending.

anyways, D i Z is right, you brought up the experts and my wife is asian stuff

 

[Pet]

It's already happening.

https://www.highsnobiety.com/2017/03/08/soul-food-gentrification/

Key Quote:

"When the Paula Deen story broke, many black American chefs spoke out about how she was a disgrace to Southern culture, with some explicitly pointing out how, as black chefs, they are held back by racist beliefs that their cooking is "untrained," "low class" and high in saturated fats, while white Southern chefs creating the same types of food are seen as more professional, talented and well-respected; creating "comfort food" that appeals to the masses."

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I think what happened with Deen and soul food is closer to what happened with Andrew Zinwhatever and his attempt at Asian food.


That being said, yeah, it does kinda suck to see how people try and sell their food by claiming it's "authentic," often while disparaging the actual people it came from.

Oh friend. These are Asian owned restaurants. And you're criticizing the manner in which they offer their food. Yes, its tailored to the American pallet, but that's not exclusively white. Do African Americans not eat American Chinese food? And isn't this what Ramsey is offering the opposite of? American Asian?

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Oh honey, I promise you that black (and brown) people were not the targeted market for Panda Express. First of all, nothing there is spicy in any way, shape, or form.

Second, no, Ramsey isn't offering the opposite of American Asian food. He's offering "authentic" Asian cuisine for non Asian people. It's not really about his food as much as his market, though I'm going to remain highly skeptical of the food until I see it, given the pattern/history of most TV celebrity chefs that attempt to venture into "Asian" food. (Marked difference from generally well respected/regarded chefs in the culinary circles.)

Third, if you're referring to nonwhite American palate... well, they don't need this, because there's about a million different places that already serve similar food for much cheaper. However, I am not familiar with London's culinary scene, so it's very possible that there are no existing, decent, "authentic Asian" restaurants in London.

 

[Deleted member 907]

Sounds like you're just battling demons about "experts" and not me buddy. I only argue from the perspective of my personal beliefs about humanity generally being a place where ideas are rightly traded among all people as long as there is no ill will or mockery. You'd see me make the same points in a taco truck thread, has nothing to do with my personal relationships.

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How convenient of you to ignore what I said about colonialism when you professed to know a great deal about it academically.

And how do I know your wife worked at a server at a sushi joint if you never brought it up?

 

[Deleted member 52988]

I think people are missing the point. No one is complaining about that fast food chinese spot run by spanish people. This isnt what is being discussed

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Nobody is missing the point.

What is "inauthentic" about this apart from Ramsay's race?

 

[MM300]

Sounds like you're just battling demons about "experts" and not me buddy. I only argue from the perspective of my personal beliefs about humanity generally being a place where ideas are rightly traded among all people as long as there is no ill will or mockery. You'd see me make the same points in a taco truck thread, has nothing to do with my personal relationships.

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Bro, you dug into your bag and pulled out your Asian studies degree and your Asian spouse, in some thinly veiled attempt to portray yourself as an expert. Don't play like it wasn't like that.

 

[D i Z]

This is a PR flub for Gordon. Dude has been pretty respectful in his shows where he's traveled all over Asia to learn. BUT even that (I'll say it again) was under the stipulation that he was going to try to do it better then those he learned from. That kind of arrogance is how you get this kind of mess. "Authentic Asian cuisine" in this kind of format and presentation is white people talk for feel free to come here, it's color free. He should know better.

 

[rAndom]

This is a case of people being angry over anything. It's food. If you know how to do a dish, regardless of origin, then there's no problem with you making it.

 

[D i Z]

If he had pulled an "Authentic Jamaican experience" we'd have to cut a bitch.

 

[F2BBm3ga]

If he had pulled an "Authentic Jamaican experience" we'd have to cut a bitch.

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i originally used Jamaican in my example, but switched it to soul food.

 

[Deleted member 23381]

lmao, I guess that's why the polish/indian run chinese buffet caught fire the other day, must've been karma for all that "cuisine appropriation"

 

[teacup]

Plenty of asians around me own fish and chips shops, which used to be a staple of Anglo / white Australians, then a lot of Greeks and Italians, now Asian.

I have about three Japanese restaurants around me owned and operated by Malaysian Chinese.

Troll against or whatever and you can definitely take issue with decor or whatnot but if you are a chef no truely free society should police the food matching your fucking race. All or none of the staff can be race appropriate or not and it shouldn't make a lick of difference in today's globalised world for this kind of thing.

 

[Miletius]

As tempting as it may be, inserting the phrase "my asian waifu" into your argument should also lead yourself to question your own authenticity. I thought Asian Studies Majors were master logicians and smarter than this.

 

[Deleted member 7130]

who's holding back asians from succeeding in the restaurant business?

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To open up a restaurant on same level of prestige as a white proprietor? Probably plenty of places in the US, especially outside of well ingrained asian communities like ones in Cali.

 

[Yoshimitsu126]

Here's what bothering me about Ramsay saying his food is "authentic asian."

Asian is social construct. Authentic Asian food is not real. A westerner upholding the idea of this social construct and then calling it authentic further promotes the idea of orientalism - that all "Asian" things are foreign and exotic. This really needs to stop in today's globalization of culture.

Plus he mentions he's going to innovate it too which basically contradicts what the word authentic means too. This means he simply using the term "authentic asian" to market his food to westerners who have a certain belief of what "Asian" food should be.

You may be wondering why some races consider themselves Asian. We don't really. It was a term White Americans made in their population census to categorize all people in the Asian continent that didnt look white excluding Hawaiian and Pacific Islanders.

Hope y'all have a good day.

 

[DionardoLicaprio]

As long as Ramsay is respecting the original cuisine and dishes, which he seems to be doing, what exactly is the problem here?

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Some people just have a problem with everything in the world, when they can't look at themselves and see that, sometimes, the problem is with them and not the world.

 

[CrankyJay]

To open up a restaurant on same level of prestige as a white proprietor? Probably plenty of places in the US, especially outside of well ingrained asian communities like ones in Cali.

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It's not prestigious because he's white. It's prestigious because the dude earned it. If the food and service is good, generally a restaurant will gain prestige.

 

[Otnopolit]

AsianERA: "Hey folks here's why we're concerned and why we think it's disrespectful."
ERA: "Fox is just using only 5 tweets to set off virtue-signaling white folks. I don't see why it's a big deal if it's done respectfully."

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Yeah, this is really problematic. Big fan of Ramsay, but it's clear to me he's made a mistake. Hope he owns up, I don't get the impression he's used to doing that...

 

[night814]

So you cant cook pizza unless you're italian?

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Evidently for some 'purists' out there, I'd be all about a really good chef making actual Chinese food as opposed to the usual american garbage .

 

[Deleted member 7130]

It's not prestigious because he's white. It's prestigious because the dude earned it. If the food and service is good, generally a restaurant will gain prestige.

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Talking in broad terms here. I know Ramsey himself is a hard worker, but this is the world he exists in.

 

[MM300]

Here's what bothering me about Ramsay saying his food is "authentic asian."

Asian is social construct. Authentic Asian food is not real. A westerner upholding the idea of this social construct and then calling it authentic further promotes the idea of orientalism - that all "Asian" things are foreign and exotic. This really needs to stop in today's globalization of culture.

Plus he mentions he's going to innovate it too which basically contradicts what the word authentic means too. This means he simply using the term "authentic asian" to market his food to westerners who have a certain belief of what "Asian" food should be.

You may be wondering why some races consider themselves Asian. We don't really. It was a term White Americans made in their population census to categorize all people in the Asian continent that didnt look white excluding Hawaiian and Pacific Islanders.

Hope y'all have a good day.

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Yeah the PR statement is a mess. Authentic would mean that's it the real deal, as close as the original as you can get, a dish that you can ostensibly only find in certain regions of Asia. Innovative would mean that you would be changing/adding/fusing something about it, which would basically negate the authenticity of it. So which is it?

 

[D i Z]

AsianERA: "Hey folks here's why we're concerned and why we think it's disrespectful."
ERA: "Fox is just using only 5 tweets to set off virtue-signaling white folks. I don't see why it's a big deal if it's done respectfully."

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Nobody listens. They just don't care.

 

[CrankyJay]

Talking in broad terms here. I know Ramsey himself is a hard worker, but this is the world he exists in.

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I think the bigger issue here is white people taking what is considered "struggle food" in various cultures and claiming it as some trophy of discovery.

 

[cheesekao]

Why is this even an issue? I've seen so many restaurants tout "Authentic X Cuisine" when that term doesn't actually mean anything. The same dish can taste quite different when cooked by different chefs be they of similar or different ethnicity. That's just marketing speech and I see no issue with this.

 

[Hokahey]

While authentic and innovative would seem to be oxymoronic, this is not uncommon phrasing in food. Often times, authentic refers to not just recipes but also ingredients and flavors. So it is possible to innovate utilizing authentic ingredients and flavors. At least amongst most culinarians. This is outside of the argument as to whether Gordon is "allowed" to be that innovator.