Google responds after Stadia owners accuse it of breaking promises over game performance

[Alexious]

You have to consider Stadia is essentially a new platform in all respects. Personally, I believe the disappointing performance in some games has to be partly the fault of Google (the development tools are likely immature for the time being) and party the fault of developers. There's no other explanation for a 10.7 teraflop hardware not being able to do 4K when the Xbox One X can. It has to be a mix of both.

 

[pswii60]

Maybe one way they could minimise latency and compression would be to sell a "mini Stadia blade", a single instance of Stadia hardware that users could connect to their display, so the rendering can be performed locally.

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That's sounds like an amazing idea. It solves so many of Stadia's issues. I wonder what they would call that type of device.

 

[zombiejames]

 

[LewieP]

You have to consider Stadia is essentially a new platform in all respects. Personally, I believe the disappointing performance in some games has to be partly the fault of Google (the development tools are likely immature for the time being) and party the fault of developers. There's no other explanation for a 10.7 teraflop hardware not being able to do 4K when the Xbox One X can. It has to be a mix of both.

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I find it hard to blame developers when Google set the release date. Why did they launch if games weren't optimised to be able to meet the expectations that they had set? Why were they talking about their platform performing in one way, when they did not have games actually meeting that standard.

It was Google who set the unrealistic expectations, not any of the handful of developers on their platform.

I can't think of any time where Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo have blamed developers for failing to meet expectations that they set.

 

[Deleted member 1003]

Destiny 2 running at 1080p is the most curious of the bunch.

How is the relentlessly positive Stadia subreddit handling everything?

 

[Xumbrega]

So they are throwing the developers who put their games on Stadia launch day under the bus, including Bungie with Destiny 2, which was the poster's child of Stadia... this bodes well to their future, lmao

 

[Thera]

To be fair, they always said that everything would be "up to 4K" or "up to 60FPS", implying that there would be times and situations where it might not hit those numbers.

Is there a detailed rundown of all the confirmed "downgrades"? I have not really kept up, but thus far I have heard that Destiny only runs at medium settings, and that RDR2 is 30FPS on a Chromecast. On Bombcast they said that the 4K video was often just a 1080P video upscaled......that can't be right can it?

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No that's not true :

The question is pretty clear : "will all games on @GoogleStadia run at 4K60?" run, not display.

 

[Dunlop]

Destiny 2 running at 1080p is the most curious of the bunch.

How is the relentlessly positive Stadia subreddit handling everything?

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It's still pretty positive as they many are actually using the product...

Terrible answer from Google, throwing devs under the bus for your new product is not a good way to get them to commit to future haves

 

[klauskpm]

You have to consider Stadia is essentially a new platform in all respects. Personally, I believe the disappointing performance in some games has to be partly the fault of Google (the development tools are likely immature for the time being) and party the fault of developers. There's no other explanation for a 10.7 teraflop hardware not being able to do 4K when the Xbox One X can. It has to be a mix of both.

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This is what I also believe to be the case, but they choose not to say so. If they said "Streaming architecture is a different and new form to develop games, and it will present new challenges. To release on day one, we prioritized a good responsive experience but we are working closely with developers to deliver what was promised."

It is almost the same as they said, but being transparent.

 

[Mudo]

Dumb question time:
What is the visual difference in Stadia steaming a game in native 4K vs this 1080/1440 original then streamed (upscaled) to 4K. Is it a night and day difference in picture quality? I have consoles and a PC, but I've only played at like, normal 1440p/4K so I don't even understand what's going on with games like Destiny on Stadia?

On topic: this whole launch has been an embarrassing fiasco. I have gigabit internet and no caps, but why would I want or need Stadia if old games are overpriced, there are nearly no exclusives, and I can already play in 4K most games on my PC (but not always max setting and 60fps of course)?

Streaming is intriguing to me, but until so wine can show me great performance and offer a Netflix-style subscription service for games, I don't see myself jumping in...

 

[Dimajjio]

They're probably running the Windows versions through Steam Proton or Wine or something on Linux. :p

 

[Lant_War]

Maybe one way they could minimise latency and compression would be to sell a "mini Stadia blade", a single instance of Stadia hardware that users could connect to their display, so the rendering can be performed locally.

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That kinda goes against the point of streaming

 

[Pokemaniac]

The performance seems to be perplexingly low based on the specs they've announced. Unless Google was just outright lying about something, I figure there must be either some bad bottlenecking due to noisy neighbor effects and/or some significant video encoding overhead.

 

[dex3108]

Dumb question time:
What is the visual difference in Stadia steaming a game in native 4K vs this 1080/1440 original then streamed (upscaled) to 4K. Is it a night and day difference in picture quality? I have consoles and a PC, but I've only played at like, normal 1440p/4K so I don't even understand what's going on with games like Destiny on Stadia?

On topic: this whole launch has been an embarrassing fiasco. I have gigabit internet and no caps, but why would I want or need Stadia if old games are overpriced, there are nearly no exclusives, and I can already play in 4K most games on my PC (but not always max setting and 60fps of course)?

Streaming is intriguing to me, but until so wine can show me great performance and offer a Netflix-style subscription service for games, I don't see myself jumping in...

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Image quality is worse. Game looks blurry in most cases. But it also depends on upscale tech. Checkerboard method for example offers better image quality. But from what we know Stadia uses simple upscaling method that impacts image quality significantly.

 

[Mudo]

Image quality is worse. Game looks blurry in most cases. But it also depends on upscale tech. Checkerboard method for example offers better image quality. But from what we know Stadia uses simple upscaling method that impacts image quality significantly.

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Damn that sucks ...
Looking at Stadia specs I just don't understand how it's underperforming Vs. consoles it simply makes no sense.

 

[Protome]

I honestly think that most of the other issues Stadia has (compression artifacts, inconsistent latency, terrible UI) would be easy to dismiss as teething pains if they had actually delivered the core thing they promised and are charging money for, 4K60. This was a shitty response by them and I don't see why any devs would work with them going forward after this attempt to shift the blame.

No that's not true :

The question is pretty clear : "will all games on @GoogleStadia run at 4K60?" run, not display.

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Yeah, there's no defending this shit. They lied about what this thing would do, knowing full well it wouldn't.

 

[Anthony Hopkins]

Jeez Google didn't you learn anything from the xbox one resolution fiasco.

 

[plagiarize]

I'm so confused at the X / Stadia numbers. I know you can't compare teraflop to teraflop 1 to 1 from different architectures, but Google were the one to boast about it. Looking at RDR makes it look like TWO stadia teraflops equate to less than 1 X teraflop.

Just such a crazy thing to boast about to then deliver SUB Xbox One X performance on your premium level of the service.

 

[gofreak]

I thought a bigger issue here is how lag spikes in some games running in 4K. Gamer Nexus (?) reported lag up to 250-300ms on Chromecast in games like Metro when running in 4K, despite much better latency on the same connection at 1080p. Given the tests for both were on the same network - and a very good connection - that suggests either the network infrastructure in between wasn't up to it, or the backend isn't up to it (either framerate or encoding wise or both), or the chromecast isn't up to low-latency 4K decoding - or a mix of all the above.

It begs the question if you would want to play at 4K on Stadia if latency is going to suffer that much.

 

[MonsterMech]

4K 60fps is a lot of data to stream.

Im sure there's enough hardware to achieve that. But devs have to consider the fact that all or even most customers won't have blazing fast connections.

I guess if the choice is between highly unstable 4K 60fps or a lower spec with more stability, they'll chose the latter.

Also there literally no hardware on the market that can promise 4K 60fps on every single game. That claim for stadia was BS from the start.

 

[Patapuf]

You have to consider Stadia is essentially a new platform in all respects. Personally, I believe the disappointing performance in some games has to be partly the fault of Google (the development tools are likely immature for the time being) and party the fault of developers. There's no other explanation for a 10.7 teraflop hardware not being able to do 4K when the Xbox One X can. It has to be a mix of both.

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While this is all true, advertising 4K streams for content that's not being rendered in 4k is pretty silly.

It's one thing if we were talking about exeptions for a bad port. But it seems true for a lot of the library.

Google going "we technically didn't say all games were going to be 4K" isn't exactly the best way to build trust with your new audience.


At this point it's really baffling that stadia launched at all. The service can barely be called an alpha since most of the features are missing or heavily compromised.

 

[HBK]

I'll be honest, if there's one thing I expected I'd be in the wrong, it's this. I mean, I totally expected they would throw bandwidth excuses for not having 4k60, and that could have been understandable in some cases. But this? I mean of course I didn't believe the 4k60 bullshit, but it being a plain power excuse (lol "it's the devs" fault) is like the lamest way they could get away with it. That's basically admitting they lied from day one 🤷‍♀️

Of course it's not like I'm utterly surprised, but still, that they think they can get away with such blatant lies is mind-boggling.

In some ways it reminds me from the old PS3 1080p/120fps claims from good old Ken.

 

[Tahnit]

im sorry but this is a lie. Destiny 2 at medium settings is stupid.

 

[K' Dash]

Now I would like to know what the developers have to say about this.

 

[LiK]

They can post all the specs they want. The end user experience is mediocre or just plain bad from real world testing.

 

[Linus815]

throwing the devs, especially devs like bungie and rockstar under the bus, is fucking hilarious, considering that it was google that plastered TFLOPS and 4K60 everywhere.

 

[Dog of Bork]

If Google was a member here they'd get banned for lazy devs rhetoric lol

 

[Dixie Flatline]

They're going to say whatever it takes to keep Stadia afloat as long as possible. Then they'll claim it was an "experiment" and thank everyone for improving the gaming world and shut it down.

 

[Deleted member 15476]

The best of PC and console gaming huh 🤔

 

[Deleted member 1003]

Phil Harrison, the snake oil salesmen of our time.

I would love to see a photoshop of Phil selling snake oil in the old west.

 

[Rat King]

So it's the devs fault

 

[Heraldic]

You keep doing you Google!

:Sighs:

p.s When I was in the PC beta I attempted several times to message Google support about the technical issues I was encountering.
Never once did I receive a reply. That was a foreboding sign.

 

[Dunlop]

They can post all the specs they want. The end user experience is mediocre or just plain bad from real world testing.

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Except it's not based off of posts here and Reddit and project Stream.

The launch should have been properly labelled an beta as many features are missing, but the tech itself is fucking fantastic and even the harshest critic agrees it is currently the best streaming tech out there.

The problem is Google itself, they get in their own way and clearly do not know how to work in this market.

If they figure it out in time is the question, but they already had the deck stacked against them with public perception so every misstep is magnified.

 

[LiK]

Except it's not based off of posts here and Reddit and project Stream.

The launch should have been properly labelled an beta as many features are missing, but the tech itself is fucking fantastic and even the harshest critic agrees it is currently the best streaming tech out there.

The problem is Google itself, they get in their own way and clearly do not know how to work in this market.

If they figure it out in time is the question, but they already had the deck stacked against them with public perception so every misstep is magnified.

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Also no demos or sub option for the games. Expecting people to just jump in and pay full price for some of the games without a Pro sub was a bit too optimistic.

 

[Iztok]

That kinda goes against the point of streaming

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But such a device could be set up somewhere in the house, away from the TV, and then streamed through LAN to your Chromecast.
Thus enabling the user with all the benefits of streaming with none of the problems associated with having a local machine such as noise, heat, etc.

 

[HBK]

If Google was a member here they'd get banned for lazy devs rhetoric lol

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This so much.

 

[Outrun]

Jeez Google didn't you learn anything from the xbox one resolution fiasco.

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MS needs to look at this Stadia debacle and remind themselves not to do the same.... again.

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

They're probably running the Windows versions through Steam Proton or Wine or something on Linux. :p

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Honestly? That wouldn't surprise me at all. Certainly would explain the poor performance they're getting on the hardware they're running.

 

[Samaritan]

How can they be so absolutely, mind-bogglingly short-sighted? What dev would want to work with them on Stadia ports/projects now after throwing Bungie and Rockstar under the bus for their own hardware shortcomings? They just keep finding new ways to inflect wounds upon themselves.

 

[Anthony Hopkins]

MS needs to look at this Stadia debacle and remind themselves not to do the same.... again.

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Nah. They already learnt there lesson with the x1.

 

[data]

They're going to say whatever it takes to keep Stadia afloat as long as possible. Then they'll claim it was an "experiment" and thank everyone for improving the gaming world and shut it down.

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I think this statement would kill their relationships with devs though. It sounds like google is throwing them under the bus a bit

 

[Stuggernaut]

No win situation for them. If they say the devs have used the tech to full potential yet, they lose. If they say that the tech is not ready for what the games demands, they lose. People will push the under-delivered, over-promised rhetoric no matter what.

Bottom line is, this (the issues) should have been expected for anyone who has done ANY kind of streaming. But just as implied, it will get better.

Also, based on the Stadia OT, people are pleasantly surprised and actually having fun (shocking I know!) so that experience will only get better in time hopefully.

 

[Dixie Flatline]

I think this statement would kill their relationships with devs though. It sounds like google is throwing them under the bus a bit

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They're treating devs like how they treat Android devs.

Google: "What you gonna do? Leave us? We're more than 50% of the market!
Android devs: "...fuck they're right..."
Stadia devs: "ight imma head out"

 

[riotous]

You have to consider Stadia is essentially a new platform in all respects. Personally, I believe the disappointing performance in some games has to be partly the fault of Google (the development tools are likely immature for the time being) and party the fault of developers. There's no other explanation for a 10.7 teraflop hardware not being able to do 4K when the Xbox One X can. It has to be a mix of both.

Click to shrink...

There's another explanation:

Google isn't actually giving Bungie a 10.7 TFLOP machine to work with and instead are running Destiny 2 perhaps w/ quite a bit less than that.

Because every other game runs about what you'd expect on a Vega-56 like GPU, whereas Destiny 2 manages to do what you'd expect.. well.. on about HALF a Vega-56 GPU.

 

[pswii60]

No that's not true :

The question is pretty clear : "will all games on @GoogleStadia run at 4K60?" run, not display.

Click to shrink...

Maybe they forgot to press the Turbo button.

 

[Prat]

One question, are stadia games only lower res that what they promised? Or they also run with lower graphic settings?
Why don't they just run games at 1080 or 1440p but with high settings overall?

 

[chris 1515]

Still doesn't explain why a 6TF home console is beating their 10.7TF data center blade in game performance

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The stadia version run at 60 fps, the true problem is why a Vega 56 perform like a 570 or 580? This is the real problem. Linux and poor AMD driver? Some limitation for power consumption for the game in the cloud?

 

[Linus815]

There's another explanation:

Google isn't actually giving Bungie a 10.7 TFLOP machine to work with and instead are running Destiny 2 perhaps w/ quite a bit less than that.

Because every other game runs about what you'd expect on a Vega-56 like GPU, whereas Destiny 2 manages to do what you'd expect.. well.. on about HALF a Vega-56 GPU.

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RDR 2 could very well run at 4k30 on a Vega 56 with X settings, or maybe even above.
It can also do 1440p60 with optimized settings.

 

[AndyD]

Has anyone done a stream size comparison? Are they really upcoding everything to 4k and wasting bandwidth even when the source runs 1080? No wonder Chromecast are overheating.

 

[Outtrigger888]

Good ole phil strikes again.

Dreamcast
PS3
Xbox One
Stadia

Are all the things this guy had a hand in launching