• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

TriggerShy

Member
Mar 26, 2018
1,602
A bit off topic, but how did Megaman fans feel when Marvel Vs Capcom 3 released with Tron Bonne and Zero but without any version of Megaman? This was during the time when Capcom hadn't been giving much attention to Megaman if I remember right. I recall some grumbling, but did fans in general think the series was represented well enough?
 

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,256
Houston, TX
A bit off topic, but how did Megaman fans feel when Marvel Vs Capcom 3 released with Tron Bonne and Zero but without any version of Megaman? This was during the time when Capcom hadn't been giving much attention to Megaman if I remember right. I recall some grumbling, but did fans in general think the series was represented well enough?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Inafune hand-pick Zero & Tron Bonne for MvC3?
 

ThisIsBlitz21

Member
Oct 22, 2018
4,662
No, no Twintelle. Twintelle is the the one anomaly in the roster that doesnt actually use her arms to fight. I think literally any another figher in the roster would be a better choice because they represent the franchise better.

Just put ribbon girl in or something.
 

Gearkeeper 8A

Member
Oct 27, 2017
615
Dr. Coyle > twintelle, she has the cooler powers, and is a villain, people only like twintelle because muh ass
 

Sacul64

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,749
A bit off topic, but how did Megaman fans feel when Marvel Vs Capcom 3 released with Tron Bonne and Zero but without any version of Megaman? This was during the time when Capcom hadn't been giving much attention to Megaman if I remember right. I recall some grumbling, but did fans in general think the series was represented well enough?

I was very upset but this was also along side of all of Megaman's games being canceled, and a poorly timed joke character in bad box art megaman being in TxSF. It felt like megaman was being killed off so its not really a comparable thing do to the drama involved.
 

Spinluck

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
28,400
Chicago
No, no Twintelle. Twintelle is the the one anomaly in the roster that doesnt actually use her arms to fight. I think literally any another figher in the roster would be a better choice because they represent the franchise better.

Just put ribbon girl in or something.

TT is far more interesting than both of them though.
 

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,256
Houston, TX
No, no Twintelle. Twintelle is the the one anomaly in the roster that doesnt actually use her arms to fight. I think literally any another figher in the roster would be a better choice because they represent the franchise better.

Just put ribbon girl in or something.
I could see Ribbon Girl getting in as Spring Man's echo next Smash, but not over him. If anything, if we got a 2nd unique rep, it'd be between Twintelle & Min Min.
 

Mobu

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
5,932
You might as well rename the thread "i dont want springman in smash 6"

Also, yall dont assume arms is a lock for the next smash

It could go the way of Chibi robo/Custom Robo/ Golden Sun
 

Giga Man

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
21,204
Super Smash Bros. also needs to stop choosing the first world of the game they represent for the stages. Every Donkey Kong Country stage in the series is a freaking jungle. Where are the snowy mountains, the shipwrecked beaches, the volcanoes? There are way too many Plains in the Mario stages and the only Mario Kart stages are two circuits. Why is Golden Plains still here? Where are the airships? Why did they remove Rainbow Road? WHERE IS BOWSER'S CASTLE?! Why does the Paper Mario stage go from generic-ass Plains to a neat ship on water with a great remix of Rogueport to the worst, completely unfun interpretation of Bowser's Castle? Why does Plains have to be in everything 2D Mario in Smash?

I've posted enough about this topic when it comes to an Arms rep. We don't NEED SPRING-MAN!
We need Min-Min because she's proven her popularity through the Party Crash. MIN-MIN FOR SMASH!
 
Nov 17, 2017
12,864
I agree but I feel it's impossible now since Smash has seemingly moved on to the big 3rd party mind blowers. They seem less likely to go for Nintendo character at this point let alone non-main Nintendo characters.
 
OP
OP
Busaiku

Busaiku

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,371
You might as well rename the thread "i dont want springman in smash 6"

Also, yall dont assume arms is a lock for the next smash

It could go the way of Chibi robo/Custom Robo/ Golden Sun
This isn't just about ARMS.
I also brought up examples of like Urbosa, Impa, and Wonder Black.

The problem is that most of Nintendo's games that star humanoid characters are largely represented by white guys.
This is why I'd like characters like Twintelle or Min Min over Spring Man.
ARMS is an easy example to use here cause it's a popular franchise with characters that are more notable than it's cover character.

But if we got other Nintendo franchises (I'd already suggested Wonder Black over Wonder Red), I'd rather we get like Ranzal or Cleo over Euden, Elma over anyone else from Xenoblade, Claude over Byleth, and so on.
 

Giga Man

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
21,204
Shantae is like the only female protagonist of her own franchise that has any sort of fan support in Smash, and she's brown on top of that. The only other female protagonist of her own franchise who's more popular as a Smash contender is Lara Croft, but I don't see much support for her to be in the game.
 

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,256
Houston, TX
This isn't just about ARMS.
I also brought up examples of like Urbosa, Impa, and Wonder Black.

The problem is that most of Nintendo's games that star humanoid characters are largely represented by white guys.
This is why I'd like characters like Twintelle or Min Min over Spring Man.
ARMS is an easy example to use here cause it's a popular franchise with characters that are more notable than it's cover character.

But if we got other Nintendo franchises (I'd already suggested Wonder Black over Wonder Red), I'd rather we get like Ranzal or Cleo over Euden, Elma over anyone else from Xenoblade, Claude over Byleth, and so on.
Even with your Three Houses example, they'd probably go for Edelgard over Claude given......spoiler-related reasons.

Either way, this mentality is more Sakurai's than Nintendo's. I agree with you in that it's a double-edged sword when it comes to representation for women & people of color. But as long as Sakurai has as much of a say regarding roster selection as he currently does, this mentality will stick around. This is why I said this in one of my recent threads.
If Spring Man is the main character, Twintelle is one of the popular characters (up there with Min Min). While I personally don't expect any ARMS representation in Smash Ultimate via DLC, I do believe that its success will eventually lead to representation in the next Smash game (like fellow EPD franchises Pikmin & Splatoon before it). While Spring Man would be the obvious choice to add first (especially due to Sakurai's protagonists-first mentality with regards to roster selection), Twintelle would be a prime candidate for a 2nd character for the series. This is especially true since Nintendo seems to be pivoting towards Twintelle as the series' leading lady over Ribbon Girl as of recently. It also helps that Twintelle has her own gimmicks to set her apart from Spring Man (especially with her ability to slow down time while charging up her next set of punches). On top of that, she would help with Smash's lack of black/brown characters (which is part of the reason I went with Twintelle over my main in ARMS, Dr. Coyle), so the inclusion of Twintelle would be a slam-dunk on all fronts. And to be honest, Yabuki's ARMS team are one of the more progressive teams over at Nintendo EPD, & I'd love to see their hard work rewarded via Smash.

If you want to read the whole thread, the link is below. I plan on reassembling the team to update the thread after the entire Fighters Pass is revealed.
 

Zyrox

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,618
Eh I don't agree
I think the main character represents their home series best.
People would have been very disappointed if we would have gotten Bottles or Gruntilda or whoever instead of Banjo for example.
If we get a new franchise represented in Smash I want it to be the star of that franchise, not some supporting cast member. After the main is added? Sure, go nuts.
 

GamerJM

Member
Nov 8, 2017
15,595
I get why people feel this way and I'd be happy to see it happen, but longterm I'd just like to see more diverse main characters in Nintendo franchises in general. The fact that Smash lacks this diversity is more of an indictment of Nintendo's lack of diversity than Smash itself, IMO.
 

DecoReturns

Member
Oct 27, 2017
22,003
You also got to think about what the devs want as their representative for a series.

Kamiya would want Wonder Red over Wonder Black honestly.
 
Oct 25, 2017
34,760

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,256
Houston, TX
I get why people feel this way and I'd be happy to see it happen, but longterm I'd just like to see more diverse main characters in Nintendo franchises in general. The fact that Smash lacks this diversity is more of an indictment of Nintendo's lack of diversity than Smash itself, IMO.
While that is especially true for the lack of racial diversity in Smash, Sakurai bears a decent chunk of the responsibility for the lack of women in Smash thus far when characters like Dixie Kong, Elma, & more exist (at least for the base roster). One could argue that he doesn't really care about that kind of thing, but that can be just as bad as having a negative opinion in cases like this. Though unless I'm mistaken, he mentioned that he wanted to bring more women to Smash during the Wii U/3DS days, so I have some hope that we'll get at least one more woman in the Fighters Pass.
 

steviestar3

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jul 3, 2018
4,427
A bit off topic, but how did Megaman fans feel when Marvel Vs Capcom 3 released with Tron Bonne and Zero but without any version of Megaman? This was during the time when Capcom hadn't been giving much attention to Megaman if I remember right. I recall some grumbling, but did fans in general think the series was represented well enough?

It was incredibly lame. Apparently the reason for Mega Man's exclusion was that Niitsuma (producer of MvC3) thought that Mega Man didn't work for a fighting game... which was a terrible excuse.
 
OP
OP
Busaiku

Busaiku

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,371
Then you know what a minor character Black is compared to Red. The situation's not comparable to ARMS at all, where you could pick literally any character of the roster as adequate representation of the game.
I'm well aware of this.
But again, other crossover games do use more minor characters (relative to the story) in their roster instead of the protagonists, and those characters now represent the series far more.
Obviously Krishna is more of my personal wish, but like I don't think people would really care if Mariana made it in over Will. She's definitely more popular than Wonder Red (I know Wonser Black isn't).

Though in all likelihood, we're much more likely to get all the main CENTINELS than any single 1.
If the franchise even gets any reprsentation.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
Busaiku

Busaiku

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,371
Shantae is like the only female protagonist of her own franchise that has any sort of fan support in Smash, and she's brown on top of that. The only other female protagonist of her own franchise who's more popular as a Smash contender is Lara Croft, but I don't see much support for her to be in the game.
Yeah, I actually made this thread with the (unlikely) "tease" from the trailer and I realized just how bad Super Smash Bros is at this.
 

Evilisk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,355
That's more of Sakurai's mentality than anything else, which will likely stick as long as Sakurai has the final say with character selection.

For reference, Capcom is much more lax with their character selection process for Versus games (Ex: Morrigan over Donovan, Zero & Tron Bonne over Mega Man, etc.).

Yeah, Capcom's always been really great about this. Sakurai's approach means you'd never see a pick like TVC's Saki, and that's pretty lame

Gimme something like, Sami as the rep for Advance Wars, instead of Andy, in Smash

A bit off topic, but how did Megaman fans feel when Marvel Vs Capcom 3 released with Tron Bonne and Zero but without any version of Megaman? This was during the time when Capcom hadn't been giving much attention to Megaman if I remember right. I recall some grumbling, but did fans in general think the series was represented well enough?

There was definitely backlash

To the point that they made sure to show off Megaman X immediately when Marvel Infinite was first revealed
 

TheDinoman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,092
A bit off topic, but how did Megaman fans feel when Marvel Vs Capcom 3 released with Tron Bonne and Zero but without any version of Megaman? This was during the time when Capcom hadn't been giving much attention to Megaman if I remember right. I recall some grumbling, but did fans in general think the series was represented well enough?

It was a terrible decision back then and it's still a terrible decision today. I'm glad something like that will never happen with Smash.
 

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,256
Houston, TX
Yeah, Capcom's always been really great about this. Sakurai's approach means you'd never see a pick like TVC's Saki, and that's pretty lame

Gimme something like, Sami as the rep for Advance Wars, instead of Andy, in Smash
That's the thing, I'd imagine that Sakurai would go for Andy over Sami is Advance Wars ever got a rep (which I honestly don't expect at this point unless AW gets a revival). Like most other main-character-first choices, it makes perfect sense for a crossover fighting game like Smash on paper, but it comes at the cost of potential representation for women on the roster as well as for people of color (though Sakurai's options for the latter are much more sparse overall.....something that I hope is rectified in the near future). I completely understand why Sakurai has this thought process when it comes to character selection. But as I said earlier, it's a double-edged sword that I wish that Sakurai eased up on from time-to-time (even with Robin, he was just as much the protagonist of Awakening as Chrom was, if not more so). Maybe not to the extent of MvC3 leaving out Mega Man, but maybe to the extent of Morrigan getting in MvC1 over Donovan.
 

perfectchaos007

It's Happening
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,229
Texas
The apparently-canon graphic novel (whenever that comes out, since Dark Horse said it's still coming.....albeit pending Nintendo's decision on when to release it) pretty clearly paints Spring Man as the protagonist. Likewise, Springtron very much plays into the hero's-evil-clone trope.

I think ARMS planned on springman being the protagonist but course changed when the Twintelle reveal broke the Internet
 

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,256
Houston, TX
I think ARMS planned on springman being the protagonist but course changed when the Twintelle reveal broke the Internet
I don't think we've seen any indication that Nintendo will change course to Twintelle as the face of ARMS. Even for Min Min's Party Crash Bash victory art, Spring Man is featured the most prominently of the characters who didn't win.
D-BX_QRU0AAkROM.jpg
For better or worse, it doesn't seem like Nintendo is backing down from Spring Man being the face of the series. However, Twintelle is positioned much more prominently here, even more so than Ribbon Girl. Between this & how Twintelle is featured in Women of Nintendo materials over Ribbon Girl as of recently (see the Switch News section), I could see Twintelle &/or Min Min taking over Ribbon Girl's leading-lady status.
 
OP
OP
Busaiku

Busaiku

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,371
Maybe not to the extent of MvC3 leaving out Mega Man, but maybe to the extent of Morrigan getting in MvC1 over Donovan.
Again, this is what I'm largely focusing on.
Nintendo's smaller franchises also tend to have their most varied casts, and it's much easier to choose another representative without causing much backlash.

Like, at this point you can't take out Captain Falcon and put in Kate Alen or Samurai Goroh without people getting upset (and again, this is not what I'm suggesting), but if they had in 1999, I doubt anyone would've batted an eye.
 

RochHoch

One Winged Slayer
Member
May 22, 2018
18,863
I think ARMS planned on springman being the protagonist but course changed when the Twintelle reveal broke the Internet
Why?

As far as I'm aware, Nintendo has done nothing to "change course" beyond acknowledging Twintelle's positive reception and moving on. I feel like people are blowing their decision to add Twintelle to that one demo way out of proportion.
 

KtotheRoc

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
56,590
A bit off topic, but how did Megaman fans feel when Marvel Vs Capcom 3 released with Tron Bonne and Zero but without any version of Megaman? This was during the time when Capcom hadn't been giving much attention to Megaman if I remember right. I recall some grumbling, but did fans in general think the series was represented well enough?

They were not happy.
 

Sunset Crusader

Alt Account
Banned
Jun 25, 2019
45
I absolutely agree Smash needs better representation but dont think main characters should be skipped over.

Nintendo should so better at more diverse main characters that then get into smash. The main philosophy of roster selection shouldnt have to change.
 

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,256
Houston, TX
Again, this is what I'm largely focusing on.
Nintendo's smaller franchises also tend to have their most varied casts, and it's much easier to choose another representative without causing much backlash.

Like, at this point you can't take out Captain Falcon and put in Kate Alen or Samurai Goroh without people getting upset (and again, this is not what I'm suggesting), but if they had in 1999, I doubt anyone would've batted an eye.
The other thing that likely contributes to Sakurai's protagonists-first mentality is the fact that he usually consults the developer (especially for third-party franchises). For example, if Sakurai were to consult Kamiya for a Wonderful 101 rep, Kamiya would probably tell Sakurai to go for Wonder Red.
 

Dogenzaka

Alt Account
Banned
Apr 20, 2019
803
Yeah it'd be cool if they added Dimitri from Three Houses, or Ninjara from ARMS over Byleth and Spring Man.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,348
I don't quite get why Smash of all games has to have better representation when the humans aren't even the main characters of the game and only make up like half of the roster at max, and that as already only happened because guest characters and Fire Emblem became a thing as time progressed.
 

Giga Man

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
21,204
A bit off topic, but how did Megaman fans feel when Marvel Vs Capcom 3 released with Tron Bonne and Zero but without any version of Megaman? This was during the time when Capcom hadn't been giving much attention to Megaman if I remember right. I recall some grumbling, but did fans in general think the series was represented well enough?
I was pissed. I bought vanilla MvC3 in hopes we'd get a Mega Man as DLC. Instead, we got Ultimate and still no Mega Man (not even another series rep), and I sold my copy, didn't buy Ultimate, and never looked back.
 

Vidiot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,453
Shantae makes a lot of sense and ticks a lot of boxes.

Star of her series
Fairly well requested
Huge moveset potential
Indie rep
Birthed on and been with Nintendo for years
Female
Ethnic diversity
 

TheDinoman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,092
I absolutely agree Smash needs better representation but dont think main characters should be skipped over.

Nintendo should so better at more diverse main characters that then get into smash. The main philosophy of roster selection shouldnt have to change.

Exactly this, blame Nintendo and their developers for not making enough PoC main characters/mascots to work with.
 
OP
OP
Busaiku

Busaiku

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,371
I don't quite get why Smash of all games has to have better representation when the humans aren't even the main characters of the game and only make up like half of the roster at max, and that as already only happened because guest characters and Fire Emblem became a thing as time progressed.
Humanoid characters make up the majority of the cast.
Excluding Dark Samus, 47 characters are humanoid, of the 73 announced.
If you took out the 3rd party and Fie Emblem characters, you'd still get 30/56.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,348
Humanoid characters make up the majority of the cast.
Excluding Dark Samus, 47 characters are humanoid, of the 73 announced.
If you took out the 3rd party and Fie Emblem characters, you'd still get 30/56.

And as I said, it evolved into that. It has more to do with the games industry walking away from anthropomarphic videogame characters than anything. As others have said, Nintendo or better Sakurai shouldn't focus on getting PoCs if that means reaching for the obscurest of side characters instead of the more logical main characters and villains.

If the franchises at his disposal simply don't have that many PoCs among their main casts it's an overarching problem that can't be fixed with this game.