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Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Resident Evil 4 was more radical I think.

A lot of people underestimate how radical RE4 was for the series because we've been having RE4 style RE's for almost two decades now, but it changed pretty much everything that one could change about a game. Definitely the crown is between RE4 and GoW; BotW, different as it is, is a trivial departure in comparison.
 

SpinlyLimbs

Banned
Feb 1, 2018
914
This statement makes me assume that you didn't play the game.
Well then you'd be wrong in your assumption. It's not my fault I notice similarities to other games. How is it any more inaccurate than saying the combat is similar to Dark Souls combat? Does that mean they're the same thing? No, but there sure as hell are similarities.
 
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Master Chuuster

Master Chuuster

GamingBolt.com
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Dec 14, 2017
2,648
It just looks so mashy in videos
It really, really isn't. Can't stress this enough.

but it's not really like old God of War if you can't air combo or juggle things
And you can still do that.

If the combat system can't be adequately explained or extrapolated through footage
That's because the system grows deeper as the game progresses. You unlock more moves and abilities, and stringing these together to perform actual visual combos (rather than just a bunch of numbers displayed on the screen) as satisfying as hell.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,433
Leave Atreus alone, lol.

It's not even Atreus' fault specifically! The presence of child characters automatically downgrades my interest in a game by 20% at bare minimum. Blame JRPGs.

It took significant force of will to stomach Ellie in TLOU, and I think the only reason it worked in the long run is because Ashley Johnson is an insanely talented VA and the game let me play as her. If she was voiced by some actual child, I would've been sick of her before Winter and given up on the game.
 
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Master Chuuster

Master Chuuster

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Dec 14, 2017
2,648

Tyaren

Character Artist
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
24,710
I know this is going to sound silly, but it's not really like old God of War if you can't air combo or juggle things.

rM7wEih.gif
 

Mr.Deadshot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,285
Well then you'd be wrong in your assumption. It's not my fault I notice similarities to other games. How is it any more inaccurate than saying the combat is similar to Dark Souls combat? Does that mean they're the same thing? No, but there sure as hell are similarities.
All games have similarities to other games. The thing is some people instantly make assumptions like "I don't like this, it looks like TLOU and Dark Souls. I don't wan't walking & talking slow paced God of War with slow Dark Souls combat and annoying kid."

The only true similarity is the camera perspective and it pretty much ends there. And NPCs/party members helping you in puzzles is not something TLOU invented.
 

Deleted member 12833

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,078
The similarities aren't exactly hard to see. You have an invincible companion following you around constantly talking. Alot of the puzzles are the same "Get child up onto ledge so they can help you get up". Entire story has similar themes of a parental figure learning to let go of previous tragedies to appreciate their new child.
Nah, very few puzzles like that actually. Game plays nothing like TLOU.
 

SpinlyLimbs

Banned
Feb 1, 2018
914
All games have similarities to other games. The thing is some people instantly make assumptions like "I don't like this, it looks like TLOU and Dark Souls. I don't wan't walking & talking slow paced God of War with slow Dark Souls combat and annoying kid."

The only true similarity is the camera perspective and it pretty much ends there. And NPCs/party members helping you in puzzles is not something TLOU invented.
Nobody is saying it did.
 
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Master Chuuster

Master Chuuster

GamingBolt.com
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Dec 14, 2017
2,648
The similarities aren't exactly hard to see. You have an invincible companion following you around constantly talking. Alot of the puzzles are the same "Get child up onto ledge so they can help you get up". Entire story has similar themes of a parental figure learning to let go of previous tragedies to appreciate their new child.
Puzzles are actually quite different, in that God of War has actual puzzles (mini-puzzles, but puzzles nonetheless. Not just "grab plank and move it to that location".)

The similarities between the two are very superficial. Have you played God of War yet? Because, pre-release, I felt it mimicked TLoU a bit too much as well, but having played it for 20 hours now, I can tell you that that couldn't be further from the truth.
 

black070

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
5,583
I think we can all atleast agree it is one of the boldest, most radical reimaginings.

It deserves a lot more credit for actually taking everything that came before it story and character-wise and bringing it forward with the new direction.
 

mjc

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,879
It's definitely one of them, I'd put it alongside RE4, BotW, Metroid Prime, and Mario 64.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,433
Yep, more reasons I'm thinking ppl in this thread of not played it. You can air juggle from the start

And if you could actually get off the ground and follow up those juggles with an actual air combo that would be nice. But apparently we don't get that anymore because jumping is archaic.
 

noyram23

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,372
It just looks so mashy in videos, and not in a good way. And it doesn't help that I'm not really interested in a Souls-inspired take on God of War. I prefer my Souls games to be Souls games so I can compartmentalize the frustration they cause in me. The last thing I want is games that should be relaxing and fun stressing me the hell out with difficulty.
The videos doesn't do the combat justice since it's been embargoed to death unfortunately. Why not? I mean it's unfortunate you don't want to try new things just because you're used to some games being like that, I think they pulled off the combat and that's one of the reasons it's getting 10s. If you are having a hard time you can always lower the difficulty, it's not Souls hard though.

It feels like a better Darksiders game to be honest, it has the perfect balance of combat, story beats, exploration, and puzzles.
 

SpinlyLimbs

Banned
Feb 1, 2018
914
Puzzles are actually quite different, in that God of War has actual puzzles (mini-puzzles, but puzzles nonetheless. Not just "grab plank and move it to that location".)

The similarities between the two are very superficial. Have you played God of War yet? Because, pre-release, I felt it mimicked TLoU a bit too much as well, but having played it for 20 hours now, I can tell you that that couldn't be further from the truth.
Sure there are actual puzzles like freezing the wheels to make the rune appear or pushing the cart to get it to the skymover. I'm talking about the 3 or 4 instances I counted in the first few hours where you have to get the kid to kick down the chain the first time, then later on he gets all mopey and you have to constantly talk to him just to get him to pull a lever or kick down a chain to get you somewhere.
 
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Master Chuuster

Master Chuuster

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Sure there are actual puzzles like freezing the wheels to make the rune appear or pushing the cart to get it to the skymover. I'm talking about the 3 or 4 instances I counted in the first few hours where you have to get the kid to kick down the chain the first time, then later on he gets all mopey and you have to constantly talk to him just to get him to pull a lever or kick down a chain to get you somewhere.
A few instances of similarities with The Last of Us doesn't make it a game that is exactly (or very) similar to TLoU. That would be what we call a generalization.
 

noyram23

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,372
When it's cheaper, or when they release a demo, I will. Like I said before, $60 is just too much to ask for a maybe. Especially with an annoying kid character.
No, in fact Atreus elevated he whole game story and gameplaywise, probably the best partner character in any game, it helps that he's very helpful in combat especially if you unlock his customizations and skills. But reading your comments it seems that you made up your mind, so just give it a try if it goes cheap
 
It's really weird to see people downplay what Metroid Prime did as "it's just Super Metroid in 3D," especially as the gameplay focus in Prime is so different from Super, even after stepping away from the gap between "2D platformer vs. 3D FPS" that was going on. Honestly, back when it first came out, I found Prime to be more similar to 3D Zelda, and even that's not a 1:1 comparison in the slightest.
 

SpinlyLimbs

Banned
Feb 1, 2018
914
A few instances of similarities with The Last of Us doesn't make it a game that is exactly (or very) similar to TLoU. That would be what we call a generalization.
I never said it was. I just stated that the people saying people noticing these similarties are insane are incorrect. The similarities are pretty easy to notice, doesn't mean they're the same thing.
 

Deleted member 12833

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,078
I never said it was. I just stated that the people saying people noticing these similarties are insane are incorrect. The similarities are pretty easy to notice, doesn't mean they're the same thing.
Similarities can be tied to most games. I have no problem with pointing them out, the problem comes when you try to generalize a game based on these small similarities
 

noyram23

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,372
People saying it's TLOU, come on now. I would probably believe you if you said Darksiders/Zelda. Though you could probably blame embargo for the misunderstanding, there's a lot of things on the game that unfortunately kept hidden by reviewers and ads
 

Micael

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,362
Every single time a new super hyped game comes out we get threads like this of "is X the one to do Y the most", and the answer is almost always nop, and this is no exception:

GTA 2 to GTA 3
Warcraft to World of Warcraft
Mario to mario 64
The legend of Zelda to ocarina of time
Doom 2 to doom 3
Fallout 2 to fallout 3
Witcher 1 to Witcher 2 (and arguably again for witcher 3)
Plenty of Final fantasies, those games tend to change stuff around quite a bit.
Even oh so very recently we had fornite going from being a co-op survivalish crafting game to being a battle royale, which I would argue is a bigger gameplay departure than god of war even if it was borderline a mod for fortnite.
The entire Ultima series, one of the most influential series of all time, one just needs to do a quick google image search to see how vastly they changed from game to game.

And then we have less vast changes which I would still argue are bigger departures then GoW, like tomb raider going from being a game mostly about platforming and puzzle solving to a poor men uncharted.

Also would very much say RE6 to RE7 is a bigger departure.
 

Deleted member 11926

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,545
Technically speaking, World of WarCraft was a more "radical reimagining" for the WarCraft series. Interestingly enough, I think that Ultima Online was not that much of a "radical reimagining" but a logical step forward (Same with FF11). But I get what you mean, OP. Still, I don't think that God of War (2018) is that far out, feels more like a logical step forward.
 

Jawbreaker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,411
New York City
It might look that way in videos, but it's anything but, depending on the difficulty being played of course.

Also, If you want a relaxing game, just play on one of the lower difficulties. If however you fancy a more methodical and demanding experience, play one of the harder difficulties.

Also, in this thread there are a lot of people who've clearly not played the game suggesting this new title is little more than a cinematic third person makeover. Far, far from it. Actual gameplay, moveset, mechanics and systems wise, God of War is actually more comprehensive and deep than any of the Soulsborne or DMC games. Not just in a small way either.

I know that might sound hyperbolic, but when you finally play it, you'll see why myself and others are saying it. Mid to late game there is such a wealth and abundance of systems and mechanics at work in combat at any one time, it's almost overwhelming. I'm 30+ hours in, and I'm still constantly being surprised, learning or practicing new plays, strategic options, testing new runes, exploring better parry, deflect, stun, special and combat timings and so on.

On the gameplay side, the upgrade system also allows you to customise builds to an extent that even looking at screens, videos etc from other players, I can see so many people focusing on a multitude of different things. Obviously late to end game things will start to converge as more and more people unlock everything, but in terms of enhancements and Runic specials equipped, things are still going to differ.

Well said. As I posted in the OT, the combat mechanics and encounter design heavily discourage sloppy play, so you're forced to utilize your entire arsenal as well as employ on-the-fly tactical decisions to survive skirmishes. While I can button mash my way through, say, Bayonetta, attempting to flail through fights in God of War results in certain failure; as a result, I'm encouraged to learn the nuances of the game's systems and use different strategies when what I've been attempting isn't delivering results.

This is just one aspect of an incredible game, though. I can offer platitude upon platitude if we shift the discussion towards level design.

I should note that I've been playing on "Give Me a Challenge" mode, which I feel should be the default if you're at all competent at character action and Souls games.
 
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nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
Wut. The game has no stamina system so you can just spam attacks until the enemy decides to attack, then all you have to do is block, and there is such a huge block window it's not even particularly challenging. You can knock enemies into the air, but it changes nothing other than making them not be able to attack you, you get no new moves or abilities of any significance while the enemy is in the air due to there being no jumping. If you could jump you could have different moves or abilities while being in the air, but they could do that because they removed jumping for some reason. You get new abilities but almost all of them serve the same purpose. You can throw your axe to freeze enemies, thus keeping them from attacking you. So many of the abilities are just variations on stunning an enemy. The fact that I have beaten the vast majority of fights by spamming the same two moves over and over doesn't exactly speak for it's supposed depth.

Lol, no you can't just spam attack. Maybe you need to up the difficulty? Remember difficulty in this game doesn't just change health and damage stats, enemies have different moveset, AI etc too. As Cory himself stated, harder difficulties change the game in a big way.

In the difficulty I'm playing, you can't even get off more than a few hits without the enemy immediately countering you, unless of course they're being juggled, on the floor, electrified, frozen or stunned.

And it's not challenging? Again, maybe if you're playing on easy. I have died FAR more times in this game on Hard than any of the Soulsborne titles. You had countless Soulsborne vets etc in this very forum who were dying multiple times in the opening tutorial combat segment for heavens sake.


If you just vaguely summarise just some of the combat options available to the player at any one time, all at once, interchangeably and dynamically;

Atreus
- You can use him to auto fire at enemies
- You can also specifically aim for him.
- You can use him strategically to distract enemies, or to keep enemies suspended in air, on the ground etc.
- You can switch between arrows for DPS, stun, shock, weakening, slowing etc.
- You can use his magic rune specials which also have different qualities, eg damage, keeping enemies in place, stun etc.

Axe Long Range
- You can throw the axe with either a light or heavy throw.
- You can also long charge throws to either add frost damage, explosions or to target multiple enemies.
- You can use the axe to specifically target enemy weak spots, limbs etc to stop specific attacks, stun, do more DPS, trip them over etc.
- You can leave the axe in an enemy to keep them frozen or impaled. You can also kick these enemies in to other enemies to chain freeze.
- You can strategically position yourself to call back the axe so on its return it hits other enemies, or hits certain weak spots, or their legs to trip them up etc.
- You can have it so precision hitting specific weak spots powers any potential return throw.

Close quarters shield and melee
- You can perform light and heavy melee attacks.
- You can perform specific light, heavy, and charged light and heavy attacks, that are only available while evading or dashing.
- Melee builds up a separate stun bar, which you can use to enable to to pull off specific finishers.
- Later you can instant recall your axe to combo in to the middle of a melee flurry.
- You can block certain attacks with the shield.
- On effective block timings or parries, you can do a follow up counter move to stun, DPS etc.
- Follow up moves include light and heavy, and charged light and heavy too.
- You can also do specific light and heavy attacks with the shield itself too, including concussive blasts, slams, knocking enemies over by their feet etc.
- You can perform specific light and heavy sprinting melee attacks.

Close quarters axe combat
- You can perform light and heavy axe attacks, including charged or powered light and heavy attacks too.
- You can juggle enemies, perform specific combos, finishers and so on.
- You can perform specific light, heavy, and charged light and heavy attacks, that are only available while evading or dashing.
- You can perform specific light and heavy sprinting axe attacks.
- You can pause mid combo or mid attack, to switch stances and chain to other specific light and heavy attacks and combos.

Magic and specials
- You can do specific light and heavy rune magic attacks, that can be good for dps, aoe, stun, freeze etc.
- You can do specific talisman abilities that have a wide range of effects, from granting temporary health or defence boosts, barriers, slowing down time etc etc.
- You can use Spartan rage, a special power mode which in and of itself has an entire new moveset.

To be able to dynamically, fluidly and constantly interchange between all the above mechanics and more, at any moment, at any given time in the midst and flow of combat, honestly adds for a massive amount of combat depth and complexity for those that care for it, and from a systems perspective, is imo far more comprehensive and deep than Soulsborne and similar comparatives.

Like I said earlier, there's such an abundance of gameplay and combat systems in play that it's not only a bit overwhelming at times, but even 30 hours in I'm still constantly experimenting.
 
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Oct 28, 2017
16,773
I would also say Tomb Raider Legend was a radical change for a series. Exploration focused gameplay was changed in favour of linearity with a huge focus on cinematic design. They even got rid of the inventory system completely and completely streamlined the series for an entirely new audience. Careful platforming based around lining your jumps correctly and essentially solving puzzles to traverse the environment was replaced with automated platforming with magnetic ledges. It felt more like Prince of Persia than Tomb Raider.

It was much easier than previous games, the main character had a completely new look, and in terms of atmosphere it was a radical departure for the series. No longer were you isolated, but had constant chatter from friends in your headset, again emphasising the bigger focus on narrative.

Control scheme and abilities were entirely different, and quick time events were added. Lara's backstory also went through a big change. Combat was a bigger focus than before, even adding things like slo mo shooting abilities. I'd put Tomb Raider Legend up there with a lot of big radical franchise changes. It was definitely not the Tomb Raider that came before it. Not even close.
 

BeaconofTruth

Member
Dec 30, 2017
3,417
Mechanically its a bunch of systems found in so many games. lock on combat, skill tree, that overly zoomed in camera, walking segments, crafting systems, gear/loot, the works. It's not bold by any means, it's as much a part of the modern game trend as is anything else. Narrative wise sure, but the gameplay? There were games/franchises that changed into game styles that were legitimately fresh n inventive.

I'm sure what it does, it does well. But lets not get carried away.
 
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Master Chuuster

Master Chuuster

GamingBolt.com
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Dec 14, 2017
2,648
Mechanically its a bunch of systems found in so many games. lock on combat, skill tree, that overly zoomed in camera, walking segments, crafting systems, gear/loot, the works. It's not bold by any means, it's as much a part of the modern game trend as is anything else. Narrative wise sure, but the gameplay? There were games/franchises that changed into game styles that were legitimately fresh n inventive.

I'm sure what it does, it does well. But lets not get carried away.


But none of them were God of War games. I'm not saying it's a bold new direction for the industry, I'm saying it's a bold new direction for the series.

It's right there in the OP too.
 

SpinlyLimbs

Banned
Feb 1, 2018
914
Lol, no you can't just spam attack. Maybe you need to up the difficulty? Remember difficulty in this game doesn't just change health and damage stats, enemies have different moveset, AI etc too. As Cory himself stated, harder difficulties change the game in a big way.

/Snip
I was playing on the second hardest and was able to do it just fine, I changed it to a lower difficulty after I realized I was pretty sure they weren't going to give enemies new moves in harder difficulty levels. Once I unlocked the charged R2 attack and the shield sweep that's pretty much all I've done outside of kicking enemies to get them away and it's served me just fine. Hell during the troll fight in the caves I was able to take out 1/3 of his health bar just while he was entering the arena by spamming R2 over and over, then the rest of the fight I just hid behind his legs and swapped sides I was hacking at whenever he did a stomp. The problem isn't a lack of moves or anything like that, it's that very few of them do anything that is particularly different than any other moves.
 
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Master Chuuster

Master Chuuster

GamingBolt.com
Verified
Dec 14, 2017
2,648
Once I unlocked the charged R2 attack and the shield sweep that's pretty much all I've done outside of kicking enemies to get them away and it's served me just fine. Hell during the troll fight in the caves I was able to take out 1/3 of his health bar just while he was entering the arena by spamming R2 over and over, then the rest of the fight I just hid behind his legs and swapped sides I was hacking at whenever he did a stomp.
Your game sounds broken. Charged R2 attacks are super risky even on normal difficulty, because a lot of the times the animation gets cancelled before Kratos can pull off the move due to enemy attacks. That happens a LOT. Don't know how it isn't happening to you.

The problem isn't a lack of moves or anything like that, it's that very few of them do anything that is particularly different than any other moves.
Also wat. Wat.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
I was playing on the second hardest and was able to do it just fine, I changed it to a lower difficulty after I realized I was pretty sure they weren't going to give enemies new moves in harder difficulty levels. Once I unlocked the charged R2 attack and the shield sweep that's pretty much all I've done outside of kicking enemies to get them away and it's served me just fine. Hell during the troll fight in the caves I was able to take out 1/3 of his health bar just while he was entering the arena by spamming R2 over and over, then the rest of the fight I just hid behind his legs and swapped sides I was hacking at whenever he did a stomp. The problem isn't a lack of moves or anything like that, it's that very few of them do anything that is particularly different than any other moves.

Well there you go.

And I strongly disagree that the moves aren't particularly different. They have hugely differing effects, eg stun, freeze, dps, the distance they put enemies from you, whether the enemies are still on their feet after the attack, how much time you have for follow up combos or attacks, aoe blasts, crowd control, number invincibility frames, how long they take to pull off and how vulnerable you are doing them, what is effective against which enemy and so and and so on. They're all different and need to be timed or used effectively to make the most out of your situation.

Obviously like any game, if the player wants to be boring and not experiment with the huge diversity of combat options available to them, they probably could do, but that's on them and not the game.

Hell in one of my play throughs of Ninja Gaiden I remember spamming flying swallows for easy wins the majority of the game, and then in one of my Bloodborne play throughs I pretty much exclusively used the axe and dodging. Combat is largely what you make it, and it's the breadth of gameplay/combat systems and options, coupled experimention and reward that make it. Harder difficulties generally help facilitate it too.
 
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SpinlyLimbs

Banned
Feb 1, 2018
914
Your game sounds broken. Charged R2 attacks are super risky even on normal difficulty, because a lot of the times the animation gets cancelled before Kratos can pull off the move due to enemy attacks. That happens a LOT. Don't know how it isn't happening to you.


Also wat. Wat.

It gets cancelled if I get hit sure, but if you can hit them with it once, then take a few steps back most enemies will not be able to hit you while you are charging it up. Leading to a situation where you can just repeat it. Doesn't always work with bosses, definitely doesn't work with the first dragon, but you can still abuse the same old Dark Souls circle strafe on alot of them.

In regards to moves not being much different let me explain. If I hit an enemy into the air in Devil May Cry I now have multiple ways I can interact with that enemy. I can use them as a platform to get to a higher area to avoid other enemies, I can use it to get a particular enemy far away from me, I can use their body to get closer to other enemies, it also gives me the ability to do moves I couldn't before. In GoW all it affords you is that the enemy won't be attacking you anymore and you can get the stun meter to rise a little. Sure there are things like the dodge moves where you spin the axe around but it does nothing particularly different than just dodging and attacking outside of how much damage or stun it inflicts.

Well there you go.

And I strongly disagree that the moves aren't particularly different. They have hugely differing effects, eg stun, freeze, dps, the distance they put enemies from you, whether the enemies are still on their feet after the attack, how much time you have for follow up combos or attacks, aoe blasts, crowd control, number invincibility frames, how long they take to pull off and how vulnerable you are doing them, what is effective against which enemy and so and and so on. They're all different and need to be timed or used effectively to make the most out of your situation.

Obviously like any game, if the player wants to be boring and not experiment with the huge diversity of combat options available to them, they probably could do, but that's on them and not the game.


Hell in one of my play throughs of Ninja Gaiden I remember spamming flying swallows for easy wins the majority of the game, and then in one of my Bloodborne play through I pretty much exclusively used the axe and dodging. Combat is largely what you make it, and it's the breadth of gameplay/combat systems and options, coupled experimention and reward that make it. Harder difficulties generally help facilitate it too.

Oh, absolutely. But the game design should be given some responsibility for forcing the player to experiment and use all options. In regards to difficulty levels if you raise the difficulty enemies later on will punish you heavily for spamming the Flying Swallow, that's something I wish God of War took from Ninja Gaiden alongside a dismemberment system that alters enemies behaviors. Hopefully something they can look into for a sequel.
 
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Strat

Member
Apr 8, 2018
13,329
Oh, we're already at the part where we're telling people to play at harder difficulties cause it's so much more satisfying? Yet another similarity to TLoU! Only half kidding.

The combat in GoW reminds me of the Arkham games, you have a ton of options at your disposal, but the basic attacks and the ranged attack are more than enough to deal with every threat you face, making the majority of the moveset pointless to all but those wishing to experiment. Just because you CAN do it doesn't really mean anything if the game doesn't give you a reason to, and needing to suffer through a much harder difficulty than default to be forced to use 3/4 of the moveset is buuuuullshit. That's more of the "Halo needs to be played on Legendary to be truly appreciated!" shit that used to get spouted.

All that said, I still have fun with it.
 

RevenantAxe

Banned
Apr 16, 2018
1,274
No, they went after ND formula of third person cinematic action game.

Most boldest is RE7 this gen, they move from third person to First person which pissed off many hardcore fans of the series. Gow reveal didn't pissed off any fans infact they all were blown away by it.
 
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