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septmbrvrywn

Member
Dec 3, 2018
978
Paris, France
Most Americans have never heard of those soccer players. Maybe Ronaldo.

Exposure influences this debate and the reality is that being the best player in the biggest American sport is going to spawn threads like this.
I'm just against the semantic used. I know this forum is mostly US but it's also inclusive. Brady is the football goat no discussion. But dismissing other sports and culture from an American pov only, nah.
If so Football (soccer) is the most popular sport in the world and it's a fact so it should be taken into serious consideration for GOAT talk shouldn't it?
 

Sanjuro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,059
Massachusetts
There's probably an argument to be had for both bledsoe and simms, and all of this is in good fun and problematic hypotheticals, but if you gave parcells and QB like brady, I think it's entirely plausible that he'd have bellichick like success or even better. how many coaches have the kind of success parcells had with multiple teams? Andy Reid is literally the only other guy I can think of. Don Shula maybe? and that's TWO teams. Parcells had 4 playoff teams as a HC. Took 3 of them to conference championships, 2 of them to the super bowl, won the SB 2x with 1 team. I think it's a fun argument!
Bledsoe hits the mark for just about every existing HOF member, but if you're grading him on the post-Brady/Manning scale he's out.

I still don't love the way Parcells ended here, but he is an often forgotten ingredient in the culture change here in New England.
 

Deleted member 31923

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I'm not a fan of discussing GOAT of any sport since all sports are so different. Wayne Gretsky had some insane stats anyway if you really want to go there. But Brady is the GOAT of football. This season may have been his most impressive regardless of what happens in the Super Bowl. He had over 40 touchdowns at age 43 and got his team to the Super Bowl even though they looked like a first round exit for a lot of the season. There were 7-5 at one point and needed a strong push at the end just to secure a wild card spot. And lost to the Saints twice/Chiefs once, suggesting they couldn't beat the best teams. Yet here they are after beating Washington (granted that was pretty easy) followed by to great teams in the Saints and Packers.

Brady also killed the argument that "it was all Belichick for why the Patriots were so successful." First season on a new team at age 43, right back to the Super Bowl. I still think Belichick was a big factor in his success though. We saw the trash coaching for the Packers yesterday that squandered all time great Aaron Rodgers. There are plenty of coaches would could have screwed up getting handed a gift like Brady, but Belichick wasn't one of them.
 
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The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,029
HEre's something that's also so unusual about Brady's rings compared to any other players on this list:

0yYMSr.png


(Missing Joe Green and Randy Grossman in the screenshot, same as the ones above them)

If you scroll through this list of most superbowl rings, all of them have a lot of seasons in common... The 1975-1980 Steelers, the 1980s 49ers, the 49ers/Cowboys swap (Charles Haley jumped back and forth winning super bowls for reach team), Romanowski with the 49ers and then Broncos late in his career, Matt Millen on those 49ers teams late in his career. But where those 49ers have a half dozen guys, the Steelers have a dozen guys, Brady is only joined by one teammate on that list, Adam Vinitieri. Marv Flemming is the only one to really be unique other than Brady, playing for Green Bay and the early Dolphins championship teams.

If you expand it out to players who won 3 Super Bowls, then there will be more ~22 I guess. And then in the late career run for Brady, Edelman, Gronk, McCourtey, Hightower, Chung, Gostkowski... Maybe an OLine that I'm missing who was a backup/mixed starter (Soldner was gone for 2018, Thuney wasn't on 2014).

If Tampa Bay wins in 2 weeks, Gronk joins the 4 Super Bowl club. There have only been three other players to win 4 Super Bowls since Charles Haley, and only one position player to have won four super bowls (Tom Brady, the other two were special teamers -- Vinitiari & Izzo for the Patriots [3] and Giants [1]). Elite company for Gronk, hope he wins.
 

Deleted member 31923

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Lol AFC has had the better teams for the last 20 years already so this doesn't make much sense.

Exactly. Just looking at the joke the NFC East has been for the past few years for example. Losing teams winning the division and all. The NFC usually has a handful of really strong teams, but the AFC has been stronger from top to bottom. I also don't get this argument when Brady switched to the NFC and literally made the Super Bowl in his first year, and way past the prime of his Patriots days.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,029
all fair points. that's what i meant about hypotheticals being problematic. GOAT arguments are always subjective and silly in any sport. there are too many elements at play that you can't just ceteris paribus your way through the comparisons. Like Belichick though, Parcells accomplishments are also unmatched, just in different ways. I'm just surprised that no one ever mentions it

Yeah, the last 20 years have kinda moved on from Parcels. In the 90s and early 2000s, it was common place to consider Parcels in that list of greatest coaches of all time. Anything Parcels did or said was considered, like, brilliant ... something you etch into marble or something. His apex for career beatification was probably just after that Jets 1998 season (the Testeverde one where they were up 10-0 on the 14-2 Broncos midway thru the 3rd quarter and seriously looked like they'd be going to the Super Bowl).

But I think because he's had ignominious exits on every team he's been on since the Giants, leaving those teams in dissary on his exit -- Patriots collapsed, Jets collapsed, Cowboys collapsed, Dolphins as GM was fine but not great and they obviously collapsed -- he's kinda fallen out of the popular mystique of greatest coaches of all time. But, like ~1999, 2000, Parcels was frequently considered in that tier of greatest coaches of all time. I think being surpassed by his protege, Bill Belichick, that he's always followed around by this drama has kinda hurt his legacy.
 

fertygo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,566
Playing QB is the hardest position in American football. It's as physically demanding as it is mentally.
You said that but career expectacy for QB (is this even a word, no spell checker in chrome mobile godammit) is clearly longer than any other position in the sport. They expected to go beyond 35 before retire, you cannot say that for other position. Not For Long joke still hold true except for the QBs.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,029
Brady was lucky to play in the AFC East . Doubt he gets to SB's in the NFC

Just for factual accuracy, the AFC East is the most winning division over the last 20 years in the NFL, and the AFC has been the most dominant division for the last 20 years, winning 13 out of the last 20 Super Bowls, 5 out of the last 6, and of the 7 Super Bowls that the NFC has won in the last 20 years, Eli Manning, Nick Foles, and Brad Johnson were the QBs on 60% of them. Not exactly a murderers row of elite talent. Everybody likes to laugh that like "lol Brady got beat by Eli Manning and Nick Foles in the SUper Bowl..." but... like... so did every other team in the NFC, so however bad Eli and Nick Foles are in the history of Super Bowl winning QBs, they were the best of the best from the NFC in those seasons, Eli's Giants soundly trounced the 15-1 Rodgers GB team in 2011, soundly beat Matt Ryan, Brees got beat by the team that Eli would go onto beat in the Championship game.

And if you control for the Patriots dominance of the AFC East over the last 20 years (and control for the top team's performance in every division over that same time), it's still an above average division (3rd). The perception that the AFC East is a bad division is only because the Patriots and Tom Brady were so dominant for ~18 years, so teams that would be 10-6 or 9-7 playoff teams in every other conference would more often than not be 8-8 or 7-9 and get bumped out. The Jets, Dolphins, and Bills would not be perennial sorry losers from 2001-2019 if they were in any other division (with the exception of probably the AFC north, which is the 2nd best division in the NFL behind the AFC East, and if you control for the Patriots' success, the best division), and it's no surprise that Brady jumps to the NFC this season, wins the NFC Championship on a team that didn't make the playoffs last season, the Patriots miss the playoffs this season, and the 2nd best AFC East team *last* season played in the AFC Championship game last night.

An AFC East team has played in 15 of the last 20 AFC Championship games.
 

Sanjuro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,059
Massachusetts
HEre's something that's also so unusual about Brady's rings compared to any other players on this list:

0yYMSr.png


(Missing Joe Green and Randy Grossman in the screenshot, same as the ones above them)

If you scroll through this list of most superbowl rings, all of them have a lot of seasons in common... The 1975-1980 Steelers, the 1980s 49ers, the 49ers/Cowboys swap (Charles Haley jumped back and forth winning super bowls for reach team), Romanowski with the 49ers and then Broncos late in his career, Matt Millen on those 49ers teams late in his career. But where those 49ers have a half dozen guys, the Steelers have a dozen guys, Brady is only joined by one teammate on that list, Adam Vinitieri. Marv Flemming is the only one to really be unique other than Brady, playing for Green Bay and the early Dolphins championship teams.

If you expand it out to players who won 3 Super Bowls, then there will be more ~22 I guess. And then in the late career run for Brady, Edelman, Gronk, McCourtey, Hightower, Chung, Gostkowski... Maybe an OLine that I'm missing who was a backup/mixed starter (Soldner was gone for 2018, Thuney wasn't on 2014).

If Tampa Bay wins in 2 weeks, Gronk joins the 4 Super Bowl club. There have only been three other players to win 4 Super Bowls since Charles Haley, and only one position player to have won four super bowls (Tom Brady, the other two were special teamers -- Vinitiari & Izzo for the Patriots [3] and Giants [1]). Elite company for Gronk, hope he wins.
Also the fact he would span 3 decades is absolutely bonkers.
 

colorblindmode

Chicken Chaser
Member
Nov 26, 2019
2,565
South Carolina
You said that but career expectacy for QB (is this even a word, no spell checker in chrome mobile godammit) is clearly longer than any other position in the sport. They expected to go beyond 35 before retire, you cannot say that for other position. Not For Long joke still hold true except for the QBs.

That's just patently not true.

The average QB career length in the NFL is just at 4 and a half seasons (source:https://www.statista.com/statistics...areer-length-in-the-national-football-league/), which would put the average age around 26/27.

QBs are not expected to go past 35 years old. If you think that, I'm sorry to let you know you are completely misinformed about the subject.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,029
You said that but career expectacy for QB (is this even a word, no spell checker in chrome mobile godammit) is clearly longer than any other position in the sport. They expected to go beyond 35 before retire, you cannot say that for other position. Not For Long joke still hold true except for the QBs.

I believe the median career length for an NFL Quarterback is 3.5 years, which is in line with the rest of positions in the league (3 years). *Elite* quarterbacks are generally expected to have longer careers, but most elite players are, it's the reason they're considered elite. No quarterbacks have ever played at the level that Tom Brady has been playing at post-40. Peyton Manning, generally considered the 2nd greatest quarterback in NFL history (and a guy who Brady chased in terms of on-field performance for a lot of his career), won a Super Bowl in his final season at age 39, but what's often forgotten is that he was the worst starting QB in the league that season, where as Brady was back to being a ~top 5 QB this season (struggled in the middle of the season but finished in the top 3 the final 4 weeks).

I agree with you though that it's hard to compare positions across sports and eras. Sports are just too different to compare. Like, how to compare an elite NASCAR driver to an elite gymnast to an elite swimmer to an elite footballer to an elite NBA player to NFL player, etc.

When talking about Brady being the GOAT I usually just stick to "North American team sports" (the big four), and even then it's hard to compare Brady to Jordan or Bill Russell or Wayne Gretzky, Mariano Rivera, etc. Like how do you even start to compare Tom Brady to Tiger Woods or Serena Williams or Michael Phelps.
 
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Tuorom

Member
Oct 30, 2017
10,915
lol

Brady wins "it's because he's on a great team"
Brady loses "wow he sucks"

Funny that.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,029
Tom Brady has played in more superbowls than all of the Bucs combined playoff wins going back to their inaugural season in 1976.

Tom Brady accounts for 33% of Bucs playoff wins since their founding.
 

Bunzy

Banned
Nov 1, 2018
2,205
This alone has sealed it that he's the current GOAT. Of active players, only Mahomes could catch him, but that conversation can be had in 10+ years if Mahomes stays top tier.


And he won't, unfortunately players like Patrick don't last. Dynamic running quarterbacks don't age like guy like Brady who sit in the pocket and throw. Look at Cam right now, that dude is just off now and he is a lot younger then Brady. You get too much wear and tear playing like those guys
 

N7_Kovalski

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,457
He's been GOAT for years now. Some of his records (namely Playoff records) will likely never be matched. Why hate? Just enjoy the show because it will be a long time, if ever, we see something like this in the NFL.
 

Tuorom

Member
Oct 30, 2017
10,915
He's been GOAT for years now. Some of his records (namely Playoff records) will likely never be matched. Why hate? Just enjoy the show because it will be a long time, if ever, we see something like this in the NFL.
Why enjoy something when I can create unsubstantiated, unreasonable, cherry-picked, and biased arguments on the internet. I go to bed believing I won something, isn't that what we all strive for?
 

Tawpgun

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,861
Just a friendly reminder that he still has a 0% catch percentage in Super Bowls
LegitimateWateryHadrosaurus-size_restricted.gif

lol WOAT.
This was borderline the most frustrating SB loss from a fans perspective.

Sure 18-1 hurts. But Brady had probably one of the most incredible performances from a QB in a superbowl.


Imagine throwing for 500 yards, 3 TD's, no Interceptions and you still lose and the only thing people remember is you dropping a pass on a trick play. Hurts even more that your aging QB, who was in his twilight years at New England (or so was the narrative at the time) was failed by his defense so hard.
 

Deleted member 1238

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What do you mean? We are seeing it now with Mahomes.
I always laugh when people say this. Mahomes is without a doubt the future of the league and I have no doubt that he will win multiple Super Bowls in his career. I think he could lead the chiefs to a patriots-like dynasty. He has the talent, but he also has the mental make up. He's a winner. He has that it factor. He's not just "the greatest thrower of the football" like people used to say about Rodgers when they would try to argue him over Brady. Mahomes thus far has shown a championship mentality that I could only compare to Brady's.

but let's not get ahead of ourselves. Mahomes has about 15 years of hard work and consistent championship football ahead of him if he's going to match Brady. Could he do it? Sure. He's technically on pace, but Brady's resume is so unbelievably good that it's just way to soon to say that about Mahomes.
 

colorblindmode

Chicken Chaser
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Nov 26, 2019
2,565
South Carolina
Yup. Wayne Gretzky, Don Bradman, and Muhammad Ali. (even though Ali's prime was missed with his stance on the Vietnam War he still showed he was the GOAT once he came back)

Ali isn't the greatest boxer ever. Sugar Ray Robinson firmly has that title.

Ali is great because of his civil rights work and his Vietnam War protests.

Edit: could also make an argument for Money Mayweather, but I think most everyone, including BoxRec, keeps Sugar Ray Robinson above him.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
4,710
I'd like to see how good Mahomes still is when his offense isn't stacked with talent. We've seen Brady take mediocre weapons to deep playoff runs multiple times.
 

spyder_ur

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,421
This was borderline the most frustrating SB loss from a fans perspective.

Sure 18-1 hurts. But Brady had probably one of the most incredible performances from a QB in a superbowl.

Imagine throwing for 500 yards, 3 TD's, no Interceptions and you still lose and the only thing people remember is you dropping a pass on a trick play. Hurts even more that your aging QB, who was in his twilight years at New England (or so was the narrative at the time) was failed by his defense so hard.

Most lost was obviously the perfect season, but the second Giants one drives me crazy. There is no way they should've lost to that team and they completely dominated the middle of that game. Wasn't their best team but no way they should've lost that game.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,750
Norman, OK
The media is definitely going to push this as a potential passing of the torch. The greatest to ever play the position vs. the man who may very well inherit that role. There's going to be nothing else that is talked about. This is Brady vs. Mahomes.

I think it's the rightful storyline. KC is 25-1 in their last 26 games. If KC wins this SB, you could make a case that the last 3 seasons from Mahomes were better than any 3 season stretch Tom ever had, even in his prime. On the other side- if Tampa Bay beats KC, then Brady will have directly taken two SB titles away from Mahomes in those same three years. This kinda' has to be the storyline.
 

Deleted member 1238

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The media is definitely going to push this as a potential passing of the torch. The greatest to ever play the position vs. the man who may very well inherit that role. There's going to be nothing else that is talked about. This is Brady vs. Mahomes.
Brady is already the undeniable GOAT. Fifteen years from now people could be making that arguement about Mahomes. "Is he better than Brady? Is he a top three QB of all time?" etc. Even if Mahomes winds up second to Brady we will all look back at this Super Bowl as the best QB matchup in the history of the game. It's like if Lebron got to play Jordon in the NBA finals. You just don't see these kinds of (potentially) historic matches in sports very often. We shouldn't take this for granted. Enjoy it.

I wanted a Brady/Rodgers or Brady/Brees super bowl for the longest time and we never got it. Now finally all these years later Brady goes through both of them in the playoffs and now gets to face Mahomes in the super bowl. This is better than anything I could have ever dreamed of.
 

stn

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Oct 28, 2017
5,601
I do think Brady is the best QB ever. That said, if Mahomes continues at his current pace, he may just surpass him.
 

Deleted member 1238

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I think it's the rightful storyline. KC is 25-1 in their last 26 games. If KC wins this SB, you could make a case that the last 3 seasons from Mahomes were better than any 3 season stretch Tom ever had, even in his prime. On the other side- if Tampa Bay beats KC, then Brady will have directly taken two SB titles away from Mahomes in those same three years. This kinda' has to be the storyline.
I mean you i suppose you could say that. You'd of course be wrong, but that's ok. It happens to the best of us. Brady had a long and unbelievably amazing career after all. I was in the third grade when he won his first super bowl, and I imagine some here are even younger. People just take his greatness and success for granted.

for example.....
If the chiefs win this year Mahomes will have won two Super Bowls in his first three years as a starter. Brady won two Super Bowls in his first three years as a starter (and then won a third in his fourth year). He has not achieved greater heights than Brady. He is simply on the same pace as Brady, and Brady continued that level of success for 20 years.

Mahomes' first three years are better than any stretch in Brady's career? In 2016, 2017, and 2018 Brady went to three straight Super Bowls, won two of them, and won an MVP award. This was at age 39, 40, and 41. if we want to stretch beyond that 3 year period he went to 8 straight AFC championship games. What on earth are you talking about saying "Brady's peak years don't even compare to Mahomes' first three." This is just typical delusional Brady downplaying. People really take for granted how amazing his career was.

Mahomes had a lot of work ahead of him to be considered the greatest.
 

trineo_feo

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Oct 27, 2017
123
I'm sorry, but declaring "GOAT in any sport" to a person that plays a sport that is only played in one country in the world is quite ridiculous. It's quite the american-centric view. Being the best at soccer or basketball - sports that billions of people in the world play - is obviously more difficult than being the best at american football.
 
Oct 28, 2017
2,228
And he won't, unfortunately players like Patrick don't last. Dynamic running quarterbacks don't age like guy like Brady who sit in the pocket and throw. Look at Cam right now, that dude is just off now and he is a lot younger then Brady. You get too much wear and tear playing like those guys

this is tired argument and a very poor comparison. mahomes is an amazingly accurate passer who only runs when he needs to. Cam's accuracy making even simple throws is what has diminished over the years. He STILL runs and runs quite well. Mahomes is more like young or rothlisberger or wilson than cam newton.
 

Deleted member 1238

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And he won't, unfortunately players like Patrick don't last. Dynamic running quarterbacks don't age like guy like Brady who sit in the pocket and throw. Look at Cam right now, that dude is just off now and he is a lot younger then Brady. You get too much wear and tear playing like those guys
This really isn't a fair argument though. Mahomes uses his legs, but only when he needs to. That's just the modern day QB. They all use their legs when there's 10 yards of green grass open to them. Mahomes isn't one of these run first QBs. His game has more in common with Manning and Brady than it does with Vick or Newton.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,750
Norman, OK
I mean you i suppose you could say that. You'd of course be wrong, but that's ok. It happens to the best of us. Brady had a long and unbelievably amazing career after all. I was in the third grade when he won his first super bowl, and I imagine some here are even younger. People just take his greatness and success for granted.

for example.....

Your example only works at the most basic, surface level. This is football, not quarterbackball. Tom literally, totally, and completely got carried to his first SB by his defense and one of, if not the best defensive coach in the history of the sport. The Chiefs had one of the worst defenses in the league, by any metric, Pat's first year as a starter.

If KC wins this SB, finishing this run at 26-1 with B2B titles, and you take just a cursory glance at the #'s, there's no 3-year stretch in Brady's career that's as impressive. There just isn't. That doesn't change the fact that Brady's the GOAT. Pat would have to do what he's currently doing for at least another decade to even enter that discussion. But he's playing at a level right now that I don't think I've seen a QB play at over a 3-year stretch, and I've been watching this league intently since 1985.
 

spyder_ur

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Oct 25, 2017
11,421
I think Mahomes' running and durability is a concern, but not really a huge one. I think a closer analog to how he uses rushing is closer to Ben or Rodgers - I think both of those guys ran less and less further into their careers, and were probably less effective as they aged. Maybe running had something to do with it but then again everyone becomes less effective later in the careers - seemingly other than Brady, of course.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,750
Norman, OK
I think Mahomes' running and durability is a concern, but not really a huge one. I think a closer analog to how he uses rushing is closer to Ben or Rodgers - I think both of those guys ran less and less further into their careers, and were probably less effective as they aged. Maybe running had something to do with it but then again everyone becomes less effective later in the careers - seemingly other than Brady, of course.

His pocket skills are elite. There's no two ways about it. His mobility is nothing more than a bonus. He could still be an MVP-caliber QB in a pure pocket-style system. Anyone saying otherwise is blindly hating. He has Rogers/Marino/Manning type arm talent.
 

spyder_ur

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Oct 25, 2017
11,421
His pocket skills are elite. There's no two ways about it. His mobility is nothing more than a bonus. He could still be an MVP-caliber QB in a pure pocket-style system. Anyone saying otherwise is blindly hating. He has Rogers/Marino/Manning type arm talent.

For sure - you have to be looking really really hard to find basically any warts with Mahomes - skills, processing, smarts, conditioning/physical, he has it all. I think a couple years ago you could sometimes confuse him with disguised schemes - the Patriots did that to some effect. Not anymore - I have literally no idea what you do with him.
 

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Your example only works at the most basic, surface level. This is football, not quarterbackball. Tom literally, totally, and completely got carried to his first SB by his defense and one of, if not the best defensive coach in the history of the sport. The Chiefs had one of the worst defenses in the league, by any metric, Pat's first year as a starter.

If KC wins this SB, finishing this run at 26-1 with B2B titles, and you take just a cursory glance at the #'s, there's no 3-year stretch in Brady's career that's as impressive. There just isn't. That doesn't change the fact that Brady's the GOAT. Pat would have to do what he's currently doing for at least another decade to even enter that discussion. But he's playing at a level right now that I don't think I've seen a QB play at over a 3-year stretch, and I've been watching this league intently since 1985.
Silly me. you're right. Brady was so lucky to be carried by the irrelevant and previously 5-11 last place patriots before he took over. Mahomes taking over the already consistently 10+ win chiefs is so much more impressive. I have no idea what I was thinking.
 

Tawpgun

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Oct 25, 2017
9,861
If Mahomes wants to take the GOAT throne from Brady he needs to do the Brady thing and take VERY team friendly deals.

He's got the MVP Coach. He's got MVP Talent. He needs to make sure that talent stays.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,750
Norman, OK
Silly me. you're right. Brady was so lucky to be carried by the irrelevant and previously 5-11 last place patriots before he took over. Mahomes taking over the already consistently 10+ win chiefs is so much more impressive. I have no idea what I was thinking.

Tom threw for 2800 yards, 18 TDs and 12 INTs his first year starting in NE.

Mahomes threw for almost 5100 yards, 50 TDs and 12 INTs and was league MVP.

WTF are you even on about?