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GillianSeed79

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,371
I've been bored lately and have kind of gone down a Youtube/Internet rabbit hole on the subject of Gnosticism. I've barely scratched the surface, but holy shit it's pretty wild. I've always know about the Gnostic Gospels, i.e. the gospels the early church deemed heretical and threw out when they were deciding Bible canon, but never really examined them or studied them beyond surface level cable documentaries. Again, I've barely scratched the surface, but some of the stuff is pretty fascinating. The Gnostic story of creation alone reads more like something from Hinduism than the book of Genesis with way, way more anime and David Bowie. Reading/listening to it though, it actually sounds like a description of the big bang, ironically. Oh and God is a woman and also a man, according to Gnostics.

For those who don't know what the Gnostic Gospels are or who the Gnostics were, basically they were some of the earliest Christian/Jewish communities, but were much more into mysticism and enlightenment than traditional organized religion or dogma and actually believe the Old Testament God was evil and Jesus actually came into being to reveal this to us and to show us that we all basically have a piece of divine spark within us...or something....and that the Old Testament God was basically just jealous of our divinity and wanted to trap us here in the physical world. They also believe that the real god, which we are a part of and will return to, is this androgynous male/female super being that exists outside of time and space.

A lot of their writings and gospels were super popular back in the day during the early days after Christ's death, but they were branded heretics by the powers that be later on. I've always found it weird that there are only four official gospels in the Bible. That's because in like 300 A.D., Constantine threw a bunch of church leaders in a room and told them to basically decide on what the Bible was supposed to be. Instead of including all of the Gospels from all of the disciples, they just decided Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, were canon and everything else was glorified fan fiction.

For the record I grew up Catholic, but stopped going to church after high school. I only just recently started going to a Lutheran Church with my wife a few years ago (Lutherans are super liberal these days). I've always been drawn, though, to aspects of eastern religion like Buddhism and Taoism in regards to stuff like mindfulness, mediation, and the search for enlightenment. Gnosticism is like a mish mash of those eastern religions with a little bit of Hinduism combined with traditional Christianity.

So this isn't just a lame wall of text, here are two videos I found that explain this stuff way better than me. It really is super, super wild some of this stuff.



 
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Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
Yeah found out about it in the 90s when I played Xenogears, which is all about this. Even the main theme, Small Two Pieces, refers to how we are all pieces of a broken « mirror », and love is this desire to be « whole again ».

It makes for good sci-fi. And it explains why our world sucks; it's because « God » actually really thinks he's God because he did create the universe, he is just unable to see the source of his own power because he is basically an error, a material being of a lower dimension than the « true god », and he gets really pissed off when we disappear to some place he can't see/understand.

It's like if he was a machine without a soul so he can't understand what a soul is and can only believe we are wrong to not worship him.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
I've always know about the Gnostic Gospels, i.e. the gospels the early church deemed heretical and threw out when they were deciding Bible canon

This isn't really how it happened. To say they "threw them out" implies they were ever in the canon to begin with. The reality is that there were different churches and sects from the start that had their own views, and the proto-orthodox sect that went on to become the Roman imperial church (which later split into Catholic and Orthodox) never regarded these nearly universally late works as canonical in the first place. The process of determining the proto-orthodox canon was also a gradual one, rather than some council where they decided "OK, this is in and this is out" and it was much more based around coming to agreements on which books were already utilized for public reading by different churches in different locations that were in communion with one another.

There were books that were popular with the proto-orthodox that really were "tossed out" like The Shepherd of Hermas, and other controversial ones like Revelation that made it in, but after Marcion the Gnostics were more or less off doing their own thing separate from the proto-orthodox community.

That's because in like 300 A.D., Constantine threw a bunch of church leaders in a room and told them to basically decide on what the Bible was supposed to be. Instead of including all of the Gospels from all of the disciples, they just decided Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, were canon and everything else was glorified fan fiction.

This is a popular belief but it is completely wrong. The Council of Nicaea had nothing to do with the canon - it was about Arianism - and the process of canon formation had already been well underway for over a century, spurred on in reaction to Marcion. The reason the four gospels were the ones that got into the canon is simply because they were the four most widely used by nearly everyone in the proto-orthodox church since early on, they are legitimately the oldest gospels (as far as we can tell), and they were not obvious forgeries like some of the Gnostic stuff. Some gospels, like the Gospel of Peter, were also popular, but there was enough distrust of it that it eventually fell out of favor, especially because Mark was already believed to be the recollections of Peter as organized by Mark.

Most modern Biblical scholars, of course, are very skeptical about the authorship of the four gospels (I personally think Luke really was written by Luke, that John contains genuine information from a non-synoptic eyewitness, and that the Secret Gospel of Mark was probably real), but it is pretty much universally accepted that the Q source predated Mark, Mark was written around 70 AD, Matthew and Luke were written in the late 1st century based on Mark, and John was completed by the beginning of the 2nd century. The Gnostics do not come close to these early dates of composition, aside from possibly some parts of the Gospel of Thomas.
 
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fontguy

Avenger
Oct 8, 2018
16,154
Yeah found out about it in the 90s when I played Xenogears, which is all about this. Even the main theme, Small Two Pieces, refers to how we are all pieces of a broken « mirror », and love is this desire to be « whole again ».

Could you expand on this? What's the significance of mirrors in regards to gnosticism? Do they factor into the creation myth somehow?
 

Thequietone

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,052
Very interesting. I am fascinated by the whole God from the old Testament is evil and Jesus was trying to tell us he was evil. I don't know if I want to go down the rabbit hole but it would definitely fit in my view of Christianity. It should be about love, peace, kindness, and love. Not this hate and violence the GOP/Trumpers spew daily. I don't want anything to do with their idea of Christianity/God.
 

Kay

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
2,077
I love the concepts of the perfect monad v the imperfect demiurge. Lots of interesting concepts.
 

Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
Could you expand on this? What's the significance of mirrors in regards to gnosticism? Do they factor into the creation myth somehow?

In Gnosticism the universe used to be like a singularity, some infinite perfect whole, but then a « fault » led to the creation of the material world. So in Xenogears the mirror breaking into a million pieces which then come back together through love is like how in Gnosticism we have inside our vessel a « piece » of the divine and these pieces must reunite/be saved.


Somewhat off topic but those other texts ascribed to early Christianity are sometimes funny, like the one about Jesus as a child who keeps cursing and killing people left and right like some rascal villain only to later do good deeds. Blinds people, pushes a kid off a roof. Strikes down some kid who bumped into him. Some ended up in the Quran too lol
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infancy_Gospel_of_Thomas
 

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Could you expand on this? What's the significance of mirrors in regards to gnosticism? Do they factor into the creation myth somehow?

Aeons (emanations of God) were composed of male-female pairs of syzygies. Sophia was the syzygy pair with Jesus but she emanates without him in her desire to know God, causing her to fall and spread confusion, which accidentally creates matter. Jesus' mission is to break people out of matter so they can return to the pleroma and become whole beings of light again.
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,377
What really bothers me about Gnosticism is the whole "only the chosen few" aspect that most of the texts seem to carry. It seemed they realized they weren't the mainstream sect, so to explain that, most Gnostic texts carried the idea that it was secret knowledge given only to a special group even within Jesus' apostles. You even get to the point of something like the Gospel of Judas that claims that anyone who can't understand its message lacks a true immortal soul and will disappear alongside their bodies since they're bound to the physical realm, unlike the ones with actual souls.
 

Stalker

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,733
What really bothers me about Gnosticism is the whole "only the chosen few" aspect that most of the texts seem to carry. It seemed they realized they weren't the mainstream sect, so to explain that, most Gnostic texts carried the idea that it was secret knowledge given only to a special group even within Jesus' apostles. You even get to the point of something like the Gospel of Judas that claims that anyone who can't understand its message lacks a true immortal soul and will disappear alongside their bodies since they're bound to the physical realm, unlike the ones with actual souls.

It's only a problem if you take it as something other than mad fiction.
 

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
What really bothers me about Gnosticism is the whole "only the chosen few" aspect that most of the texts seem to carry. It seemed they realized they weren't the mainstream sect, so to explain that, most Gnostic texts carried the idea that it was secret knowledge given only to a special group even within Jesus' apostles. You even get to the point of something like the Gospel of Judas that claims that anyone who can't understand its message lacks a true immortal soul and will disappear alongside their bodies since they're bound to the physical realm, unlike the ones with actual souls.
I mean yeah it's still religion
 

Daphne

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,690
Interesting. I'm atheistic but I do find these things fascinating. Reading the Old Testament myself, it was impossible for me to find that version of God to be anything other than evil, so Gnosticism agreeing with that is intriguing.
 

Prax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,755
Gnosticism is so wacky and great. It's my favourite version of Christianity as it in involves all sorts of intellectual and mystical rabbit holes. Has the best mix of mythological origins for all the powers that be, etc.
 

Clefargle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,124
Limburg
It's a nice way of showing that the "canon" biblical texts are arbitrarily chosen and bullshit. But to me it's nothing more than wild fanfic. Still cool in a worlds collide kinda way
 

teruterubozu

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,896
What's interesting is the Gnostics likely had women as church leaders, which of course was squashed as the "church" became formalized. I used to be really into this stuff. I had Gnosticism expert Dr. Karen King as a professor way back in the day, but her reputation has fallen ever since she got duped by the fake Gospel of Jesus' Wife papyrus fragment.
 

Voltaire

Member
Sep 13, 2018
387
A lot of their writings and gospels were super popular back in the day during the early days after Christ's death, but they were branded heretics by the powers that be later on. I've always found it weird that there are only four official gospels in the Bible. That's because in like 300 A.D., Constantine threw a bunch of church leaders in a room and told them to basically decide on what the Bible was supposed to be. Instead of including all of the Gospels from all of the disciples, they just decided Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, were canon and everything else was glorified fan fiction.
The gospels' authors are unknown, they bear the name they do now just from tradition.
 

Birdie

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
26,289
I feel like every anime/JRPG in the late 90s had an "inspired by gnosticism" plot and to this day I still don't know what that means.