An important part for context:
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Global video games giants (including Sony and Sega) avoiding millions in UK tax by abusing policy intended for small developers
- Thread starter Deleted member 1849
- Start date
An important part for context:
What else is new? That's literally the only incentive some of these companies have for staying here. If the tax system ever changed, they'd probably do what EVERY OTHER multinational company has done in the wake of Brexit, leave for some other country in the EU that a) has a lower taxation system and b) has a lower cost of doing business such as lower overall wages in relation to the said country.
And, its no surprise itself that the UK is extremely expensive to live in and recruit talent. Think of how many studios have folded if not outright moved out of the UK.
Is abusing the tax system this way bad? Can't be judged, but what if them still being there gives people jobs?
And, its no surprise itself that the UK is extremely expensive to live in and recruit talent. Think of how many studios have folded if not outright moved out of the UK.
Is abusing the tax system this way bad? Can't be judged, but what if them still being there gives people jobs?
Here in Holland there was something similar with big corporations like Shell. Their answer was "if it's legal to do so, why wouldn't we do it?". Big corps are not giving away their money from the good of their heart. Government should close this hole and make this impossible. Morally it's not right, but i'm not blaming the corporations themselves. If i could make some slight adjustments and fill in some form and i would get a 30% tax reduction i would do so as well (within the bounds of legality).
We already have one of the lowest corporation taxes in the developed world, as the article notes.
It's inevitable when there's an advantage to take, businesses will always go for it. But that doesn't mean they should be blameless, it just means to counteract this regulation needs to be tighter.
They're also not talking about the multinationals per say, but their subsidiaries (development studios such as Rocksteady and Creative Assembly). It's unlikely they would move whole studios if the rules were changed, though yes, I can imagine since business plans were made with these reliefs in mind, changing them would mean a restructuring with probable job losses at the studios, instead of the fair thing of the corporation on top just accepting a (probably slightly) smaller profit margin. But since every company can threaten that against every instance of tax avoidance, it feels super lame just to back down to them.
it is absolutely bad, these types of incentives should be claimed by small companies so that they have a higher chance to find their niche audience.
Games like total war that sell hundred thousand copies shouldn't be getting a tax break.
They won't be.
The current UK leadership's entire plan for the country going forward is to turn it in to a corporate tax dodging haven at the expense of the citizens.
Yup, this pretty much. If anything, it's gonna get worse.
The whole point of brexit was exactly to avoid coming EU tax regulations.
I expect lots of pearl clutching and feigned shock by the UK government, as they willingly allowed the companies to use this loophole to relocate to the UK. Expect a firm pat on the wrist and then nothing.
Tax policy is the responsibility of governments to coordinate to ensure that these loopholes can't be exploited, both nationally and internationally (google 'double Dutch tax' for a good example).
Or alternatively change the rules around corporate governance to make exploiting loopholes in tax legislation illegal.
Or alternatively change the rules around corporate governance to make exploiting loopholes in tax legislation illegal.
I struggle sometimes with these articles.. in the sense that it becomes very difficult to delink the narrative put forth while also being objective of the context.
Here is what i read:
Here is what we talk about instead (led by the narrative from the article):
The article does not speak to whether they pay any tax today or not (which i'm guessing they HAVE to). My reading is that concessions they use are in line with whatever legal obligation the UK government has put on them within the framework of this program. And while complying with it/within its legal boundaries, these companies are still delivering some value to the UK economy.
If we care strongly about them paying more tax - then its on the UK government to figure out if the increased tax demand is worth whatever effect this program has on the country.
Here is what i read:
- The UK decided to 'encourage' the video game industry by offering a policy that lowered corporate tax for entities engaged in the dev arena.
- While aimed at doing good in the small-mid size British industry, they did so fully aware that it might allow larger companies to take advantage of the ruling (while also catering to the spirit in which the law was passed). This was also the view of the EU at some point - but was later dismissed because it was deemed that the program was doing more good for the UK than harm.
- At the end of this article - we have direct quotes from a small developer about how the program has been beneficial for them and a report which states that ever 1 pound invested in this program has returned 4 Pounds via employment/associated economic effects.
Here is what we talk about instead (led by the narrative from the article):
- Big video game companies are avoiding paying taxes in the UK.
The article does not speak to whether they pay any tax today or not (which i'm guessing they HAVE to). My reading is that concessions they use are in line with whatever legal obligation the UK government has put on them within the framework of this program. And while complying with it/within its legal boundaries, these companies are still delivering some value to the UK economy.
If we care strongly about them paying more tax - then its on the UK government to figure out if the increased tax demand is worth whatever effect this program has on the country.
It always seemed to me that games tax breaks would be far more effective at achieving their stated goals if they had provisions to ensure they were going to smaller independently owned UK firms.
Of course they're going to be exploited by multinationals if they're constructed in a manner that explicitly allows exploitation by multinationals.
At the very least, would have been nice to have some kind of test for working conditions at studios too. In cases where excessive crunch and low job security are the norm, I don't see any justification for taxpayer subsidies.
I don't think there's any merit to the idea that the likes of Rockstar North or Sega's UK studios would shut down without tax breaks.
Of course they're going to be exploited by multinationals if they're constructed in a manner that explicitly allows exploitation by multinationals.
At the very least, would have been nice to have some kind of test for working conditions at studios too. In cases where excessive crunch and low job security are the norm, I don't see any justification for taxpayer subsidies.
I don't think there's any merit to the idea that the likes of Rockstar North or Sega's UK studios would shut down without tax breaks.
Hey remember that story about Activision running its ip in a basement of the netherlands in order to avoid taxes ? good times
well yeah, in the sense that a company isn't a sentient entity and is formed entirely by people.
the people in any way aware of the loopholes are scum and the people that sign off on these kind of flimsy tax laws are scum.
But they told me that companies end up improving the world if they can keep all the money for themselves
It's not surprising lol
There are a lot of UK studios and some of the biggest studios in the world are based in the UK, of course publishers will use loopholes to dodge taxes.
There are a lot of UK studios and some of the biggest studios in the world are based in the UK, of course publishers will use loopholes to dodge taxes.
All these governments around the world need to actually grow a pair and do something about the companies dodging taxes.
it's not just a UK thing, it's everywhere.
it's not just a UK thing, it's everywhere.
Our government pretty much systemically enables high level tax avoidance to entice business and to line the pockets of mega corporations and executives, hence loopholes like this exist and are legally taken advantage of.
Hell, the three most prominent tax havens in the entire world, are all British territories. We need a government that tackles this stuff from the very top, because it is not acceptable and increases both wealth and trading inequality.
Tax Justice Network Study
"The top 10 countries that have done the most to proliferate corporate tax avoidance and break down the global corporate tax system are:
1. British Virgin Islands (British territory)
2. Bermuda (British territory)
3. Cayman Islands (British territory)
4. Netherlands
5. Switzerland
6. Luxembourg
7. Jersey (British dependency)
8. Singapore
9. Bahamas
10. Hong Kong"
UK and territories are 'greatest enabler' of tax avoidance, study says
Hell, the three most prominent tax havens in the entire world, are all British territories. We need a government that tackles this stuff from the very top, because it is not acceptable and increases both wealth and trading inequality.
Tax Justice Network Study
"The top 10 countries that have done the most to proliferate corporate tax avoidance and break down the global corporate tax system are:
1. British Virgin Islands (British territory)
2. Bermuda (British territory)
3. Cayman Islands (British territory)
4. Netherlands
5. Switzerland
6. Luxembourg
7. Jersey (British dependency)
8. Singapore
9. Bahamas
10. Hong Kong"
UK and territories are 'greatest enabler' of tax avoidance, study says
This rhetoric does not help. Small companies do not do this. This kind of shit is done by companies with an army of lawyers and accountants.
Fucking shocking the dirty bastards. Get them to fuck if they don't want to pay tax here they are useless.