Gillette ad features an unapologetic fat woman in a swimsuit; heads explode (See Staff Post)

[Deleted member 888]

I've twice referred to a large study showing that 'honesty' makes the problem worse. I haven't found health professionals or studies suggesting that honesty helps.

It doesn't seem illogical that it would be a good idea, but the data bears out that it isn't.

Click to shrink...

Do you realize the opposite of honesty is lying? So the promotion of self-deceit because a culture doesn't want to accept the realities of what it may be doing?

Would you use this line of argumentation around anything else? Anything else in the medical fields where we shouldn't value honesty and truth as highly?

Honesty comes first, sorting out the consequences that come from that and why they might be happening come second. Being honest doesn't instantly mean, positivity and everything solved. It means setting the real expectation of what you/we have to face.

Moral conundrums are always an issue in the scientific world, but human beings valuing self-delusion and/or not wanting to accept factual realities always lead to humans abusing science and/or issues getting worse and worse.

You have to value honesty first, then comes the messy part of humans navigating ethics, morality and possible solutions.

 

[AlexinChains87]

I don't know how I feel about this ad, If it was like " she is losing weight and feels confident" thats good, but the ad seems to be condoning obesity, I get we should accept everyone but are we marketing that its ok to be unhealthy? if so then why not have the next ad be a heroin user abusing drugs and celebrate it.

 

[KHarvey16]

Suggesting the tweet isn't ambiguous when it's been read in various ways by people on both sides of the argument is laughable. Even more so when it's written by a copywriter as part of a marketing campaign.

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Lots of words around it to say so little.

As I explained, the misunderstanding is motivated. It isn't vague or confusing unless you're motivated to make it so. Any attempt at an honest, objective reading by anyone familiar with the English language gives a clear understanding of the tweet in context with the image.

The cynical "I don't like it because it's marketing" is the exact same symptom with the goalposts just moved. It has the same motivation and goal.

Earlier you said:

The advert promotes the idea of being satisfied with your obesity, which isn't a driver for change. I don't think we should be promoting the idea of being satisfied with being obese, which I think those tweets do.

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You misunderstood the advert because you wanted to.

 

[Heckler456]

Lots of words around it to say so little.

As I explained, the misunderstanding is motivated. It isn't vague or confusing unless you're motivated to make it so. Any attempt at an honest, objective reading by anyone familiar with the English language gives a clear understanding of the tweet in context with the image.

The cynical "I don't like it because it's marketing" is the exact same symptom with the goalposts just moved. It has the same motivation and goal.

Earlier you said:



You misunderstood the advert because you wanted to.

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It's quite evident the tweet was worded in such a way as to be contentious. If you think sentences like "We love Anna because she lives out loud and loves her skin no matter how the "rules" say she should display it" are objective, straight forward speech that in no way, shape or form could be interpreted in multiple ways, then I don't know what to tell you. Maybe you'd have a point if you said some aren't willing to give the benefit of doubt, but even then, that entirely up to how the individual interprets this, which is kind of the point.

 

[Kyuuji]

KHarvey16

Appreciate we have a strong difference of opinion here so will bow out. Yes, I believe those tweets together do convey that, which is why I wish the image would be used solo or in conjunction with a reworded second tweet. I've alluded to some of the below because it's painful but as you seem to insist that I'm lying I'll just lay it out and cease discussing it further.

Ultimately I don't think you're liable to change your position and being told I'm actually someone that hates obese people is getting to me on a level where it's not worth the discussion.

The idea that I just 'hate fat people' because I disagree primarily with the wording of the second tweet hit pretty hard, even though I know it wasn't your intent. Having worked within marketing maybe it has made me cynical of marketing copy when tied to things I feel vested in - as mentioned I do all I can to get my obese friends out and active because the thought of going to their funeral crushes me. So, you may be right, perhaps I am reading too much into it because of my personal experience and closeness to the subject it touches on. Just not for the reasons you imply.

So I do wish that they had either done the photo solo or revised the text to be more focused on her pursuance of an active lifestyle and her confidence in that over how I felt the message could be, and has been, received by others. I think something along the lines of "Anna is on a journey to get fit and doesn't care who sees it" would have ultimately been a more positive and direct message over that which is there.

I'd have killed to see people I loved and cared for be doing that which Anna is in the image - jumping for joy on the beach with a broad smile on her face - but I never did, and never will. If there was any negativity in my reception of the image it came from that.

 

[KHarvey16]

It's quite evident the tweet was worded in such a way as to be contentious. If you think sentences like "We love Anna because she lives out loud and loves her skin no matter how the "rules" say she should display it" are objective, straight forward speech that in no way, shape or form could be interpreted in multiple ways, then I don't know what to tell you. Maybe you'd have a point if you said some aren't willing to give the benefit of doubt, but even then, that entirely up to how the individual interprets this, which is kind of the point.

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There is a picture. The words go with the picture. There is no mystery here.

 

[Advance.Wars.Sgt.]

This.

Also, how come this wasn't an issue 50-60 years ago + people still were stressed, depressed and lived busy lifestyles. What is it that's so much more different now that 40% of Americans are overweight and struggling to lose it.

Unless you have a medical condition, to lose weight you need to eat less calories than what you burn. There's no argument around that.

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Well, 50-60 years ago people weren't villifying fat/cholesterol as the demon of health based on an incredibly biased and inconclusive "study" by Angel Keys.

Seriously - fuck him, the government, and big pharma in their entirety for being complicit in spreading false information and a horrendous diet. Now the world is on the brink of virulent diabetes turmoil, and because of a shitty education infrastrucure plus the 4+ decades of harmful indoctrination we now have a constiuency resistant to even trying other methods.

 

[Trup1aya]

I spent most of my life as overweight. Not once in my life did I ever have an experience where somebody encouraged me to be overweight or even implied it was acceptable. I was mocked, teased, bullied, pointed at, had kids ask me why I'm fat, and laughed at more times then I could keep track of even if I wanted to. The "concern" people have for an ad like this, like this is somehow going make a trend of people being happy with being obese is completely stupid. They're quite miserable, I can assure you. Hope that makes you feel better.

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People don't actually feel this way. They can't. This is just the illogical hoop they jump through to justify their shaming.

There's no sound reason that an ad depicting a large person enjoying themselves at the beach should be seen as encouragement to live unhealthily. And even if it did, it certainly wouldnt counteract the discouragement that people with weight issue deal with daily.

People just think that the status quo of large people being perpetually ashamed and depressed should be preserved so that they are more inclined to go avoid the public eye. There should be no depictions of them unless it's to patronize or demean.

It's very telling to me that people take issue with Gillette stirring controversy rather than the absurdity of the fact that this ad is controversial. Like, they literally think that Gillette should value coddling the emotions of assholes more than they value recognizing that their target market comes in all sizes.

 

[subpar spatula]

A lot of folks seem to conveniently care about issues when something bothers them. Like, I'm certain most folks don't care about weight issues in general but do now so they can slide in some insults in the name of "helping the health care system". It's like when feminism or Black Lives Matter is in the spotlight: they bring up Men's Rights or "All Lives Matter" as a way to be insulting when in reality they're not out there writing or advocating for better rights for men or even caring about all lives. If someone is overweight, that's fine, it's not your job to help them lose weight, they can do that on their own or find actual professionals to help them.

 

[rjinaz]

People don't actually feel this way. They can't. This is just the illogical hoop they jump through to justify their shaming.

There's no sound reason that an ad depicting a large person enjoying themselves at the beach should be seen as encouragement to live unhealthily. And even if it did, it certainly wouldnt counteract the discouragement that people with weight issue deal with daily.

People just think that the status quo of large people being perpetually ashamed and depressed should be preserved so that they are more inclined to go avoid the public eye.

It's very telling to me that people take issue with Gillette stirring controversy rather than the absurdity of the fact that this ad is controversial. Like, they literally think that Gillette should value coddling the emotions of assholes more than they value recognizing that their target market comes in all sizes.

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Right. People existing, and being happy WHILE being obese is not the same as people being happy FOR being obese. People being happy is a good thing. It's sad to see so many take issues with this. They find a fat person happy at all as offensive, even if they beat around the bush in not saying it directly.

 

[plagiarize]

Do you realize the opposite of honesty is lying? So the promotion of self-deceit because a culture doesn't want to accept the realities of what it may be doing?

Would you use this line of argumentation around anything else? Anything else in the medical fields where we shouldn't value honesty and truth as highly?

Honesty comes first, sorting out the consequences that come from that and why they might be happening come second. Being honest doesn't instantly mean, positivity and everything solved. It means setting the real expectation of what you/we have to face.

Moral conundrums are always an issue in the scientific world, but human beings valuing self-delusion and/or not wanting to accept factual realities always lead to humans abusing science and/or issues getting worse and worse.

You have to value honesty first, then comes the messy part of humans navigating ethics, morality and possible solutions.

Click to shrink...

Then we have a fundamental disagreement.

You have certain morals you value above results. I have a results first perspective when it comes to a population's health.

You seem to value convincing obese people they have a problem above helping them with their problem.

You can encourage good behaviour without convincing someone their current behaviour is bad. I don't think that's 'lying'.

 

[Ensorcell]

It seems to me a lot of people just can't fathom the idea that someone can be happy IN SPITE OF their obesity, so the ad must be deceiving. Guess what? Society may place value of human worth based on body shape but it doesn't mean people can't possibly overcome that. Some people just love to buy into conspiracies involving
subliminal messaging even if there is none. The ad is not going to convince people to go out and be unhealthy. That's just an absurd notion.

 

[Vincent Grayson]

Reading (part of, I'll have to get back to this later) the study, it's pretty clear that this isn't exactly conclusive. It concludes by saying that it's basically a great starting off point for further research. I think the take-away from this shouldn't be that there shouldn't be awareness, but rather that we should adapt the way we make people aware. Not to mention, of course, tackling the underlying issues.

I obviously don't think the solution lies with, like you said, stigmatizing it in any way. But I also don't think the message should be "being morbidly obese is a-okay".

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Again, *NO ONE IS SAYING THAT*.

We're saying "You are who you are, and you are okay regardless of X, Y, and Z things which are true statements about you". It doesn't mean that say, being obese is healthy or good or something anyone should (or does) strive for. It's saying that the actual human being deserves to feel good and be happy with who they are, regardless of the fact that they are dealing with this particular thing. It doesn't have to be obesity. It can be any number of things, but obesity is one where it seems like a lot of people really struggle to feel like they're still a good, worthy person in spite of it.

 

[S1lentSymph0ny]

It's very telling to me that people take issue with Gillette stirring controversy rather than the absurdity of the fact that this ad is controversial. Like, they literally think that Gillette should value coddling the emotions of assholes more than they value recognizing that their target market comes in all sizes.

Click to shrink...

Yep this is what had me side-eyeing the whole thread.

 

[Deleted member 15737]

Do you realize the opposite of honesty is lying? So the promotion of self-deceit because a culture doesn't want to accept the realities of what it may be doing?

Would you use this line of argumentation around anything else? Anything else in the medical fields where we shouldn't value honesty and truth as highly?

Honesty comes first, sorting out the consequences that come from that and why they might be happening come second. Being honest doesn't instantly mean, positivity and everything solved. It means setting the real expectation of what you/we have to face.

Moral conundrums are always an issue in the scientific world, but human beings valuing self-delusion and/or not wanting to accept factual realities always lead to humans abusing science and/or issues getting worse and worse.

You have to value honesty first, then comes the messy part of humans navigating ethics, morality and possible solutions.

Click to shrink...

Not mentioning something is not lying.

What does it matter to you if they hold a 'delusion' (strongly disagree with that choice) if what they are told (ways to eat healthier, the importance of being active, how big of an impact simple diet changes can have) is effective. You focus on the process, and the results. Why would you focus on tearing them down, if it has no bearing on results?

You bite your tongue all the time in real life, just to avoid conflict, but you wouldn't bite your tongue to improve chances of success?

Do you think the issue is obese people not knowing it's unhealthy, or the impact it can have? Because I feel that nearly all of them are aware.

And yes, there are myriad examples of "truth" not being blasted in someone's face in medicine. Pretend you're a doctor, you've just delivered a fatal diagnosis to someone. A family member holds their hand and says:

Keep fighting, you're going to beat this.

Dr. Audioboxer: Actually.........

 

[Deleted member 888]

Then we have a fundamental disagreement.

You have certain morals you value above results. I have a results first perspective when it comes to a population's health.

You seem to value convincing obese people they have a problem above helping them with their problem.

You can encourage good behaviour without convincing someone their current behaviour is bad. I don't think that's 'lying'.

Click to shrink...

You're mixing up behaviour with being honest at the first port of call. Behaviour needs to be worked on via empathy, compassion and attempting to empower someone to feel they want to change.

Honesty in this case means dealing with the facts and realities how they are without filtering them or obfuscating reality.

This all cycles back to why is America so much further ahead than nearly any other country and why I think culture and society are something that you guys need to be honest about and THEN behaviour can be assessed and all the various ways attempted to help.

Not mentioning something is not lying.

What does it matter to you if they hold a 'delusion' (strongly disagree with that choice) if what they are told (ways to eat healthier, the importance of being active, how big of qn impact simple diet changes can have. You focus on the process, and the results. Why would you focus on tearing them down, if it has no bearing on results?

You bite your tongue all the time in real life, just to avoid conflict, but you wouldn't bite your tongue to improve chances of success?

Do you think the issue is obese people not knowing it's unhealthy, or the impact it can have? Because I feel that nearly all of them are aware.

And yes, there are myriad examples of "truth" not being blasted in someone's face in medicine. Pretend you're a doctor, you've just delivered a fatal diagnosis to someone. A family member holds their hand and says:

Keep fighting, you're going to beat this.

Dr. Audioboxer: Actually.........

Click to shrink...

How is bitting tongues working out for some of the countries mentioned in this topic?

I note your dismissal, but I challenge you to go have an honest and frank conversation with your GP and see if their views are much different than mine. As long as you don't misrepresent mine, which this topic seems to keep doing with people's views.

 

[MrH]

I'm morbidly obese and it's definitely not something that should be glorified, encouraged or even accepted, as harsh as that sounds. No one should be OK with being that size, I know I'm certainly not. Mental health issues are at the core of my weight problems, with binge eating being a coping mechanism for severe depression, so it's not that I'm just greedy which is often what people think but still.

I do think it's quite dangerous to have someone like her being put in a positive spotlight, obesity is a serious issue and it's a bitch to live with, so I don't like the idea of anything promoting it.

 

[Deleted member 15737]

You're mixing up behaviour with being honest at the first port of call. Behaviour needs to be worked on via empathy, compassion and attempting to empower someone to feel they want to change.

Honesty in this case means dealing with the facts and realities how they are without filtering them or obfuscation reality.

This all cycles back to why is America so much further ahead than nearly any other country and why I think culture and society are something that you guys need to be honest about and THEN behaviour can be assessed and all the various ways attempted to help.



How is bitting tongues working out for some of the countries mentioned in this topic?

I note your dismissal, but I challenge you to go have an honest and frank conversation with your GP and see if their views are much different than mine. As long as you don't misrepresent mine, which this topic seems to keeo doing with people's views.

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The difference here, between honesty and lying, to you, is whether a doctor labels them and gives them a BMI. The solution aspect, the steps to change, all appear to be similar. It's just a subtle shift to avoid stigmatizing and dehumanizing in our society.

Can you be more specific about what aspects of our culture and society you refer to?

And I wont talk to my GP, but I will talk to my wife, who is one, and show her the study plagiarize has posted and ask her thoughts and if she might consider incorporating any of it.

It's strange, you're attributing coddling, delusion, and not being honest/blunt with individuals as the CAUSE, but what doctors have been doing is the blunt approach with labels and BMI, right? Doesnt make sense. "Biting tongues" is what is proposed as being more effective for results, it is not what has been enacted, yet you asked the rhetorical "hows that working out?", well we DONT KNOW, because it's not in practice (your 'honesty' method is), but the studies show it will work better than what's in place now, which is not tongue biting, but honest labeling leading to stigmatization and dehuminization.

 

[plagiarize]

You're mixing up behaviour with being honest at the first port of call. Behaviour needs to be worked on via empathy, compassion and attempting to empower someone to feel they want to change.

Honesty in this case means dealing with the facts and realities how they are without filtering them or obfuscation reality.

This all cycles back to why is America so much further ahead than nearly any other country and why I think culture and society are something that you guys need to be honest about and THEN behaviour can be assessed and all the various ways attempted to help.

Click to shrink...

Convincing people they have a problem seemingly makes the problem worse. I'm not going to ignore that because I want the problem to improve.

I'm not mixing up anything.

Fast food. Large portion sizes. Higher reliance on vehicles. Tell me these things haven't been a thing in the US for longer than they've been a thing in the UK. Tell me that the UK isn't catching up with the US.

Show me some evidence that adverts like the one in the OP are part of the problem. How long have adverts like that even been a thing? How does that explain anything? So called 'fat acceptance' is such a new idea that it can't account for the US's position as the country with the largest obesity problem, because the US was already ahead of everyone else when people started pushing for it.

Make obese people feel better about themselves AND encourage that they eat better and excersize better and you'll get better results than whatever you're suggesting. There's no scientific backing to your 'first they have to admit they have a problem' idea that I've been able to find in my searching today.

 

[rjinaz]

I'm morbidly obese and it's definitely not something that should be glorified, encouraged or even accepted, as harsh as that sounds. No one should be OK with being that size, I know I'm certainly not. Mental health issues are at the core of my weight problems, with binge eating being a coping mechanism for severe depression, so it's not that I'm just greedy which is often what people think but still.

I do think it's quite dangerous to have someone like her being put in a positive spotlight, obesity is a serious issue and it's a bitch to live with, so I don't like the idea of anything promoting it.

Click to shrink...

Except that's not happening at all. What's the issue with a person being happy while being obese exactly? I'm going to assume there are times when you are happy. Is that never acceptable? I'm sure you get reminded weekly if not daily how much it sucks being obese when somebody mocks you or talks behind your back like they have me.

There is no environment that exists in reality that encourages an obese person to stay obese or want to be obese. It's a goddamn hard life. An ad showing an obese woman simply being happy is not encouraging others to be obese because that very concept is ridiculous, frankly as soon as said person walks out their door. They know they are obese, it never leaves their thoughts, and they know people are judging them for it.

 

[Darkstar0155]

I can only speak to my own experience, but feeling unattractive and unwanted by people that were healthy and in shape was one of the biggest motivators for me to lose weight (along with just sick of having a lack of energy/etc).

But if I didn't care about being able to find and be in a relationship with healthy people that are attractive, then I don't know if I would have been motivated enough to change my lifestyle. I refused to be willing to get in a relationship with someone that was grossly overweight and unhealthy, and if I expected to be able to be with that kind of person, I needed to set the same standards for myself. I was never directly shamed, but indirectly shamed by every attractive person I was interested in turning me down or not having any kind of physical interest in me. Rejection was my initial motivator, and seeing the weight come off and people complimenting me kept me motivated. For what its worth, I wasn't even close to morbidly obese, was probably 40lbs overweight, which I lost in about 3 to 4 months by eating 1500 calories a day, eating lots of fish and veggies and fruits as snacks, and cutting out ALL pop/soda and fast food.

 

[Darkstar0155]

Convincing people they have a problem seemingly makes the problem worse. I'm not going to ignore that because I want the problem to improve.

I'm not mixing up anything.

Fast food. Large portion sizes. Higher reliance on vehicles. Tell me these things haven't been a thing in the US for longer than they've been a thing in the UK. Tell me that the UK isn't catching up with the US.

Show me some evidence that adverts like the one in the OP are part of the problem. How long have adverts like that even been a thing? How does that explain anything? So called 'fat acceptance' is such a new idea that it can't account for the US's position as the country with the largest obesity problem, because the US was already ahead of everyone else when people started pushing for it.

Make obese people feel better about themselves AND encourage that they eat better and excersize better and you'll get better results than whatever you're suggesting. There's no scientific backing to your 'first they have to admit they have a problem' idea that I've been able to find in my searching today.

Click to shrink...

While I haven't been following this thread, knowing people with drug issues, which I would think is similar to food/over eating problems or any other issue in someones life choices, you def need to admit to the fact you have a problem before your going to care enough to fix it.

 

[KHarvey16]

We're into the "my parents hit me and I'm fine" stage of the thread.

 

[Ragnar]

Except that's not happening at all. What's the issue with a person being happy while being obese exactly? I'm going to assume there are times when you are happy. Is that never acceptable?

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This is the core of the issue for me. Of course obese people are happy sometimes, just like all people. Depicting an obese person being happy is not glorifying obesity anymore than depicting a happy person in a wheelchair is glorifying not having the use of one's legs.

I might've had more understanding towards the outrage had this ad shown the same person eating huge quantities of fast food, smiling from ear to ear and giving a thumbs up. But it's not. It just shows an obese person enjoying their life, which is quite possible despite how some people seem to balk at the thought.

 

[plagiarize]

While I haven't been following this thread, knowing people with drug issues, which I would think is similar to food/over eating problems or any other issue in someones life choices, you def need to admit to the fact you have a problem before your going to care enough to fix it.

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Drug addiction has some similarities to weight gain issues, but it should be pretty apparent that the two aren't analogous.

 

[rjinaz]

Drug addiction has some similarities to weight gain issues, but it should be pretty apparent that the two aren't analogous.

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Right the biggest in my mind being that you NEED to eat. Food is a "battle" a person addicted to food has to face daily. There is simply no quitting, and every day, multiple times a day, there are chances to "fall of the wagon" especially if said person has any kind of social life where people are out eating or eating unhealthy around you.

 

[Heckler456]

Again, *NO ONE IS SAYING THAT*.

We're saying "You are who you are, and you are okay regardless of X, Y, and Z things which are true statements about you". It doesn't mean that say, being obese is healthy or good or something anyone should (or does) strive for. It's saying that the actual human being deserves to feel good and be happy with who they are, regardless of the fact that they are dealing with this particular thing. It doesn't have to be obesity. It can be any number of things, but obesity is one where it seems like a lot of people really struggle to feel like they're still a good, worthy person in spite of it.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, I know dude. I'm presenting two hypothetical extremes in that comment. I think the ad falls somewhere along the lines of "I'm okay despite being obese", instead of "It's okay to be obese". At the very least, though, they're being irresponsible by not properly delineating the distinction between "despite being obese" and "it being okay to be obese", because it's possible to get the latter message from the ad. And, again, that contentiousness is the purpose, which kind of makes the ad exploitative on the part of Gillette.

We're into the "my parents hit me and I'm fine" stage of the thread.

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Maybe you shouldn't invalidate other people's personal experiences with snark.

 

[KHarvey16]

Maybe you shouldn't invalidate other people's personal experiences with snark.

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I feel very comfortable pointing out harmful anecdotes that attempt to contradict formal scientific research.

 

[Ensorcell]

Yeah, I know dude. I'm presenting two hypothetical extremes in that comment. I think the ad falls somewhere along the lines of "I'm okay despite being obese", instead of "It's okay to be obese". At the very least, though, they're being irresponsible by not properly delineating the distinction between "despite being obese" and "it being okay to be obese", because it's possible to get the latter message from the ad. And, again, that contentiousness is the purpose, which kind of makes the ad exploitative on the part of Gillette.

Click to shrink...

This is so stupid, she should be able to be depicted as any other kind of human being without distinguishing anything. You think physical traits should define everything about a person's life?

 

[Heckler456]

I feel very comfortable pointing out harmful anecdotes that attempt to contradict formal scientific research.

Click to shrink...

Where's that study that shows getting attractive for the opposite sex isn't a proper motivator for weight loss?

 

[Deleted member 888]

The difference here, between honesty and lying, to you, is whether a doctor labels them and gives them a BMI. The solution aspect, the steps to change, all appear to be similar. It's just a subtle shift to avoid stigmatizing and dehumanizing in our society.

Can you be more specific about what aspects of our culture and society you refer to?

And I wont talk to my GP, but I will talk to my wife, who is one, and show her the study plagiarize has posted and ask her thoughts and if she might consider incorporating any of it.

It's strange, you're attributing coddling, delusion, and not being honest/blunt with individuals as the CAUSE, but what doctors have been doing is the blunt approach with labels and BMI, right? Doesnt make sense. "Biting tongues" is what is proposed as being more effective for results, it is not what has been enacted, yet you asked the rhetorical "hows that working out?", well we DONT KNOW, because it's not in practice (your 'honesty' method is), but the studies show it will work better than what's in place now, which is not tongue biting, but honest labeling leading to stigmatization and dehuminization.

Click to shrink...

Convincing people they have a problem seemingly makes the problem worse. I'm not going to ignore that because I want the problem to improve.

I'm not mixing up anything.

Fast food. Large portion sizes. Higher reliance on vehicles. Tell me these things haven't been a thing in the US for longer than they've been a thing in the UK. Tell me that the UK isn't catching up with the US.

Show me some evidence that adverts like the one in the OP are part of the problem. How long have adverts like that even been a thing? How does that explain anything? So called 'fat acceptance' is such a new idea that it can't account for the US's position as the country with the largest obesity problem, because the US was already ahead of everyone else when people started pushing for it.

Make obese people feel better about themselves AND encourage that they eat better and excersize better and you'll get better results than whatever you're suggesting. There's no scientific backing to your 'first they have to admit they have a problem' idea that I've been able to find in my searching today.

Click to shrink...

I'm really beginning to think you two are talking past me. For most of this topic I've been talking about being honest about the things that can cause obesity.

For the last number of posts I've weighed in on thinking culture and society plays a role. You can go back and read those posts.

America's bigger is better culture mixed with how apparent it is in this topic that obesity for some of you is now incredibly normalized that you simply class being overweight as the same thing. Those are cultural and/or societal issues. That is potentially being honest to face up to that and THEN behavioural symptoms can be approached with whatever techniques and empathy is needed. Being honest is the first part of any road to recovery.

Not exclusive to America, no, but the "bigger is better" trope has been seeping throughout your country for quite a while now. A few generations at least. Maybe you're beginning to see some of the consequences of that when the country is nearly 50% obese. And that isn't all to do with stress, depression, hereditary diabetes and so on. You've got portion sizes in America even big eaters in the UK have their jaws drop at. I've been to America a lot of times, albeit it just Florida, but all you can eat and portion size was mental. It was like a completely different world.

That's normalized in many parts of America, that other people visiting get shocked about. For example, bring people from Japan to America https://ageconsearch.umn.edu/record/14321/?ln=en Pay attention to the dietary findings of that fairly short report. In the CULTURE in Japan, it's not normalized or often the case people eat in the way they do in America. That plays a part towards obesity in Japan not being at 40%. Japan has an even more fucked up work culture than America. Stress and depression are probably insane in the country.

Otherwise, you maybe would be down at 15~25% like other countries facing those issues above and also the global issue of convenience consumption. Why do you think I kept asking some posters what makes America unique? It was supposed to be an exercise to get you thinking.

 

[Griffith]

The only good thing to come out of threads like this one is that Era is left a slightly nicer placer after the bans.

Regardless of what your health views are there is never a valid reason to shame or ridicule a person's appearance.

I have friends who are afraid of leaving their home because of the opinions some people are expressing on this thread.

If you are truly concerned about an overweight person's health don't shame them, encourage them.

 

[KHarvey16]

Where's that study that shows getting attractive for the opposite sex isn't a proper motivator for weight loss?

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Your attempt to over simplify is disingenuous. Refer to posts by plagiarize for the research.

 

[Darkstar0155]

Right the biggest in my mind being that you NEED to eat. Food is a "battle" a person addicted to food has to face daily. There is simply no quitting, and every day, multiple times a day, there are chances to "fall of the wagon" especially if said person has any kind of social life where people are out eating or eating unhealthy around you.

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While that is true, you can greatly minimize it by only buying/keeping healthy/low calorie food in your house. If your house has nothing but veggies, fruits, and low calorie food, you would have to consume a LOT. While losing weight is partly how much you eat, I would argue what is more important is what you eat.

And I know all about the "going out to eat is hard to stay on a diet", partly because a lot of places don't put the calories on the menu, but also because most foods at restaurant's are high calorie food, even the salads (pretty big joke when a Chicken Cesar Salad is getting close if not over 1K calories).

What it all comes down to is self control and buying the right food. These can be hard to break though. I used to eat BK just about daily, and on my drive home I drive right past a Mc'Donalds, BK, and Wendy's. The first few months it took a lot of self control to not pull in like I used to (I actually called it driving through the gauntlet). Now though? I drive past and don't even really think of stopping.

 

[Heckler456]

Your attempt to over simplify is disingenuous. Refer to posts by plagiarize for the research.

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I read part of that study, and nowhere did it say that motivations like "I want to look better" aren't good motivators, or anything of the sort. It's not what that study is about whatsoever. It could be that I'm misunderstanding your point though, given the fact that you've only given one snarky reply, and another one that doesn't really clarify anything. What are you referring to when you said "my parents hit me and I'm fine"?

 

[blodtann]

I think normalizing obesity is very dangerous, as it leads to a lot of problems for both the individual and society at large. Of course shaming obese people and insulting them is not right, but telling them that it's ok to be obese and that they shouldn't make an effort to improve their life is wrong. If you are obese you are not healthy, or at least not as healthy as you could be - that is a fact. Being obese is a health problem, not a character problem, and it should be treated as such. In the same way, being fat or obese should never be a personality trait, or a way to define yourself.

Regarding the Gillette ad, I think showing an obese person as an example of happiness is as harmful as showing an anorexic people as an example of happiness. Both are conditions that should be treated as health issues. Both are cases in which the person suffering from it should be helped and supported to be able to overcome the problem and live a healthier life. It's not about hiding the people with these problems from society, or behave as if they didn't exist or had less value as a person. It's about understanding that telling them that "it's ok to be like that" and that "they should just love themselves" is not the help they need. It might make them feel better for a little bit, but it's not going to fix the actual problem.

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Yep, society should hide their outcasts as much as possible. Ship them off to leprosy island perhaps.

I have never met anyone who is obese or have any form of addiction who is not aware of it.

How would you feel if you had been ridiculed, name called and bullied your entire childhood and adult life, just to have to have people like you lecturing them on being healthy.

If you have ever worked with someone suffering from addictive behavior you should know that telling them what to do rarely works, if ever.

The way you change things are by including people in the debate, to normalize them. We have made progress with LBQT awareness and normalizing, I don't see obesity as being any different than that. You don't have to agree with people's life choices, all they ask is for you to respect them as human beings and stop the bulling.

The amount of guilt and shame my wife feels breaks my heart, yet she is the love of my life. All I'm asking for is to see her as a human, and stop "caring" for her health.

I wouldn't mind seeing a Gillette advertisement for someone anorexic, someone shooting up smack, or a gay couple making out.

 

[KHarvey16]

I read part of that study, and nowhere did it say that motivations like "I want to look better" aren't good motivators, or anything of the sort. It's not what that study is about whatsoever. It could be that I'm misunderstanding your point though, given the fact that you've only given one snarky reply, and another one that doesn't really clarify anything. What are you referring to when you said "my parents hit me and I'm fine"?

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That the plural of anecdotes isn't data. Shame (self imposed or otherwise) or a desire to not be ignored by healthy people effectively motivating a person does not call into dispute research showing these are not good motivators in general and can make the problem worse. Cherry picking this kind of thing is the hallmark of being on the losing side of the discussion.

 

[rjinaz]

While that is true, you can greatly minimize it by only buying/keeping healthy/low calorie food in your house. If your house has nothing but veggies, fruits, and low calorie food, you would have to consume a LOT. While losing weight is partly how much you eat, I would argue what is more important is what you eat.

And I know all about the "going out to eat is hard to stay on a diet", partly because a lot of places don't put the calories on the menu, but also because most foods at restaurant's are high calorie food, even the salads (pretty big joke when a Chicken Cesar Salad is getting close if not over 1K calories).

What it all comes down to is self control and buying the right food. These can be hard to break though. I used to eat BK just about daily, and on my drive home I drive right past a Mc'Donalds, BK, and Wendy's. The first few months it took a lot of self control to not pull in like I used to (I actually called it driving through the gauntlet). Now though? I drive past and don't even really think of stopping.

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Oh I was more referring to how even treating the two problems requires completely different approaches, in that obesity and drug addiction really aren't all the similar except maybe on a "chemicals in your brain" level.

All you said is true. Keeping only healthy foods in your home is one of the keys I have found in losing the 100 pounds I have lost. I could list other things such as finding a healthy drink that you like that is low in calories, allowing myself a "cheat" meal once a week. And a shit ton of exercise. But everybody is a different. An approach that works for one may not work for another which adds to the complexity of overcoming obesity.

 

[collige]

Do people who have a problem with this also have a problem with NFL players being in ads because it normalizes brain damage?

 

[Heckler456]

That the plural of anecdotes isn't data. Shame (self imposed or otherwise) or a desire to not be ignored by healthy people effectively motivating a person does not call into dispute research showing these are not good motivators in general and can make the problem worse. Cherry picking this kind of thing is the hallmark of being on the losing side of the discussion.

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Huh, and here I thought this thread was about having a conversation. Didn't know we were playing for stakes!

Anyway, I'm not cherry picking anything. I'm not even using it as any sort of argument. I'm just saying that it's kind of rude to invalidate someone's personal experience in the sarcastic way that you did. You shouldn't even need to, right, if you're on the "winning side of the discussion"? Shouldn't it rather speak for itself?

 

[Darkstar0155]

Oh I was more referring to how even treating the two problems requires completely different approaches, in that obesity and drug addiction really aren't all the similar except maybe on a "chemicals in your brain" level.

All you said is true. Keeping only healthy foods in your home is one of the keys I have found in losing the 100 pounds I have lost. I could list other things such as finding a healthy drink that you like that is low in calories, allowing myself a "cheat" meal once a week. And a shit ton of exercise. But everybody is a different. An approach that works for one may not work for another which adds to the complexity of overcoming obesity.

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For sure. I cutting out all soft drinks was one of my hardest things. But I started drinking more water which is better anyways, and when I want a flavored drink I usually drink diet lemonade (like 15 cal a serving) or Propel flavored water (zero calories). And yeah, I def give myself a cheat now and then. Once in a great while I will drink some coke/pepsi, or something that's completely unhealthy/high calorie, but as long as your mostly staying in your calorie range, one day of cheating wont cause you to gain weight.

I will also add, your bodies ability to even digest some foods will drastically change. I went 6 months with zero fast food (excluding Subway and the market fresh sandwiches at Arby's). I had my first McDonald's about 2 weekends ago (long drive home after partying, 2 am starving it was all that was open).. my bowels were all messed up and I felt like crap for 3 days. I just cant process that stuff well anymore.

 

[Deleted member 888]

I wouldn't mind seeing a Gillette advertisement for someone anorexic, someone shooting up smack, or a gay couple making out.

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One of those is not like the other(s), unless homosexuality is an illness according to you.

 

[Trup1aya]

I'm morbidly obese and it's definitely not something that should be glorified, encouraged or even accepted, as harsh as that sounds. No one should be OK with being that size, I know I'm certainly not. Mental health issues are at the core of my weight problems, with binge eating being a coping mechanism for severe depression, so it's not that I'm just greedy which is often what people think but still.

I do think it's quite dangerous to have someone like her being put in a positive spotlight, obesity is a serious issue and it's a bitch to live with, so I don't like the idea of anything promoting it.

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Self-hatred is a mother fucker. The advertisement doesn't glorify being morbidly obese... it glorifies feeling comfortable enough to go to the beach.

My wife has been dealing with crippling depression since the birth of our child. And with that depression, she picked up a lot of weight. The dopamine release she got from eating was her only dose of joy throughout the day. Ofcourse that fed into the cycle.

She felt anxious that everyone around was staring at her in disgust. She felt inadequate because she couldn't return to her job as a personal trainer. She felt too much shame to go out with friends and family. All this in addition to being in a great deal of physical pain. To cope with it all, she turned to food.

She felt about herself the same way you appear to feel about the ad- given her condition, she didn't deserve the simple joys of life- simple joys like having a good time at the beach. She felt that attempting to be happy despite her physical condition was to suggest that her condition was good/acceptable.

I say all this to say that this line of thinking is destructive (which is typical of depression). It is part of the perpetual cycle. It wasn't until she learned (after much therapy) that she deserves happiness NOW that she was able to begin the process of losing the weight. She doesn't have to wait until she's healthy or until the public approves of her existence to do the things she loves..

Being obese while happy in public isn't an endorsement for unhealthy behavior. It's an endorsement for being happy in public.

 

[plagiarize]

I'm really beginning to think you two are talking past me. For most of this topic I've been talking about being honest about the things that can cause obesity.

For the last number of posts I've weighed in on thinking culture and society plays a role. You can go back and read those posts.

America's bigger is better culture mixed with how apparent it is in this topic that obesity for some of you is now incredibly normalized that you simply class being overweight as the same thing. Those are cultural and/or societal issues. That is potentially being honest to face up to that and THEN behavioural symptoms can be approached with whatever techniques and empathy is needed. Being honest is the first part of any road to recovery.

Not exclusive to America, no, but the "bigger is better" trope has been seeping throughout your country for quite a while now. A few generations at least. Maybe you're beginning to see some of the consequences of that when the country is nearly 50% obese. And that isn't all to do with stress, depression, hereditary diabetes and so on. You've got portion sizes in America even big eaters in the UK have their jaws drop at. I've been to America a lot of times, albeit it just Florida, but all you can eat and portion size was mental. It was like a completely different world.

That's normalized in many parts of America, that other people visiting get shocked about. For example, bring people from Japan to America https://ageconsearch.umn.edu/record/14321/?ln=en Pay attention to the dietary findings of that fairly short report. In the CULTURE in Japan, it's not normalized or often the case people eat in the way they do in America. That plays a part towards obesity in Japan not being at 40%.

Otherwise, you maybe would be down at 15~25% like other countries facing those issues above and also the global issue of convenience consumption. Why do you think I kept asking some posters what makes America unique? It was supposed to be an exercise to get you thinking.

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I agree that portion sizes need to be addressed. I've never debated that obesity isn't an issue. Just pointed out that it was pretty laughable for someone in the UK to try and present it as a US specific issue, when it clearly isn't.

Obese people are overweight. I'm sorry if I don't always say 'obese', but I'm not avoiding the term intentionally.

If we get really pedantic, I can point out that the term 'obese' is problematic in and of itself, because it relates to BMI and many perfectly healthy people are obese, but I don't, because we all know what we're talking about, and we aren't really talking about body builders even if they are also obese.

I doubt we'd disagree about most steps that should be taken to combat obesity. Encourage healthier diets. Encourage people to be more active. I doubt there's any breakdown there. That the focus should be on *environmental factors* isn't something I think would be controversial.

The notion that we can't do that without labelling people as obese and telling them all the damage they're doing to themselves is where we start to disagree.

The notion that an advert showing that even obese people have value is problematic, and that the biggest issue is that we need to talk about the problem more? I don't see the evidence.

Nor do I see the evidence that America is unique. When pointed out that the problem is getting worse in the UK at a faster rate than anywhere else, you didn't stop and think about your position any more than you expected us to rethink it by trying to frame obesity as a US only problem.

If you think people get fat because they don't know it's bad to be fat, rather than other psychological or environmental reasons, I think you're wrong.

You can repeat truisms like 'being honest is the first part of any road to recovery' all you like. When the hard data suggests otherwise, I'll continue following the data.

Let's go back to what started this conversation. You took issue with the idea that someone would be presented with a positive image of someone who is obese. Yes? What was that based on? A belief, that this message with further compound the issue of obesity yes? Where did that belief come from? Truisms or facts? Genuine question.

 

[Darkstar0155]

Your attempt to over simplify is disingenuous. Refer to posts by plagiarize for the research.

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I can only give my personal experience, but becoming more attractive for the opposite sex was pretty much my number 1 motivator. Nothing else had done it. It took being turned down by someone I really liked and got along with to finally motivate me, as my unhealthy lifestyle was the only reason I could find for her not being interested, since everything else in our lifestyle choices were very much aligned and we had great chemistry. And when I was being honest with myself I couldn't blame her, she placed a priority on eating healthy and staying in shape and she deserved someone with the same priorities.

 

[Heckler456]

If we get really pedantic, I can point out that the term 'obese' is problematic in and of itself, because it relates to BMI and many perfectly healthy people are obese

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Just a quick google search to address this specific point. Obesity is never healthy.

 

[Deleted member 888]

I agree that portion sizes need to be addressed. I've never debated that obesity isn't an issue. Just pointed out that it was pretty laughable for someone in the UK to try and present it as a US specific issue, when it clearly isn't.

Obese people are overweight. I'm sorry if I don't always say 'obese', but I'm not avoiding the term intentionally.

If we get really pedantic, I can point out that the term 'obese' is problematic in and of itself, because it relates to BMI and many perfectly healthy people are obese, but I don't, because we all know what we're talking about, and we aren't really talking about body builders even if they are also obese.

I doubt we'd disagree about most steps that should be taken to combat obesity. Encourage healthier diets. Encourage people to be more active. I doubt there's any breakdown there. That the focus should be on *environmental factors* isn't something I think would be controversial.

The notion that we can't do that without labelling people as obese and telling them all the damage they're doing to themselves is where we start to disagree.

The notion that an advert showing that even obese people have value is problematic, and that the biggest issue is that we need to talk about the problem more? I don't see the evidence.

Nor do I see the evidence that America is unique. When pointed out that the problem is getting worse in the UK at a faster rate than anywhere else, you didn't stop and think about your position any more than you expected us to rethink it by trying to frame obesity as a US only problem.

If you think people get fat because they don't know it's bad to be fat, rather than other psychological or environmental reasons, I think you're wrong.

You can repeat truisms like 'being honest is the first part of any road to recovery' all you like. When the hard data suggests otherwise, I'll continue following the data.

Let's go back to what started this conversation. You took issue with the idea that someone would be presented with a positive image of someone who is obese. Yes? What was that based on? A belief, that this message with further compound the issue of obesity yes? Where did that belief come from? Truisms or facts? Genuine question.

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I never did that, nor will I. I asked Americans in the topic to think about why they might be way out ahead of nearly every country and secondly to challenge their own perspective on what obesity means. As it doesn't mean overweight in a medical sense. Whether you will acknowledge it or not, there has been issues in this topic with what may be normalized as or classed as overweight to some Americans, and what others in the world think.

So I'm not framing obesity as a US-only problem, that's a strawman or if I go more favourably, it's a miscommunication between my points and your understanding of them.

Lastly, you'll actually find if you were reading my posts I never took many issues with the advert or model themselves. Moreso the discourse that came of it. The closest I came to talking about the ad directly was asking people to think how'd they'd feel about seeing an anorexic model and then, later on, I drew comparisons to how the modelling industry had pressure to stop anorexic modelling. Because as I said right from the beginning, if you put models on each far end of the body diversity scale, that means you're using people who are in seriously concerning health positions.

 

[Deleted member 15737]

I'm really beginning to think you two are talking past me. For most of this topic I've been talking about being honest about the things that can cause obesity.

For the last number of posts I've weighed in on thinking culture and society plays a role. You can go back and read those posts.

America's bigger is better culture mixed with how apparent it is in this topic that obesity for some of you is now incredibly normalized that you simply class being overweight as the same thing. Those are cultural and/or societal issues. That is potentially being honest to face up to that and THEN behavioural symptoms can be approached with whatever techniques and empathy is needed. Being honest is the first part of any road to recovery.

Not exclusive to America, no, but the "bigger is better" trope has been seeping throughout your country for quite a while now. A few generations at least. Maybe you're beginning to see some of the consequences of that when the country is nearly 50% obese. And that isn't all to do with stress, depression, hereditary diabetes and so on. You've got portion sizes in America even big eaters in the UK have their jaws drop at. I've been to America a lot of times, albeit it just Florida, but all you can eat and portion size was mental. It was like a completely different world.

That's normalized in many parts of America, that other people visiting get shocked about. For example, bring people from Japan to America https://ageconsearch.umn.edu/record/14321/?ln=en Pay attention to the dietary findings of that fairly short report. In the CULTURE in Japan, it's not normalized or often the case people eat in the way they do in America. That plays a part towards obesity in Japan not being at 40%. Japan has an even more fucked up work culture than America. Stress and depression are probably insane in the country.

Otherwise, you maybe would be down at 15~25% like other countries facing those issues above and also the global issue of convenience consumption. Why do you think I kept asking some posters what makes America unique? It was supposed to be an exercise to get you thinking.

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I asked Americans in the topic to think about why they might be way out ahead of nearly every country.

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Here's one thought:

USA: White castle 1921, McDonalds 1940, KFC 1952

UK: KFC: 1965, Pizza Hut 1973, McDonalds 1974.

Sure bigger is better is pretty american. Big cars, big houses. Originating from all the extra space we have, relative to other countries, right? I dont see the problem. People are certainly capable of liking some things big, and some things small. And having those big options is great.

Yeah, I'm not going to start comparing west vs. East cultures, because shame seems to play a huge role in Japanese culture, and because I dont know enough about it. What's one thing you think the US should borrow from Japan, culturally, or otherwise, that would show the best results.

I think the US is doing a pretty good job of exporting our obesity to other western countries, so I expect they'll be roughly even in 30 years?

Your suggestion that US obesity is reaching critical mass (your hypothesis for why percent change is higher in UK compared to US) would further lead us to imagine we'll be equal, or close to it, in the not-so-distant future.

 

[KHarvey16]

Huh, and here I thought this thread was about having a conversation. Didn't know we were playing for stakes!

Anyway, I'm not cherry picking anything. I'm not even using it as any sort of argument. I'm just saying that it's kind of rude to invalidate someone's personal experience in the sarcastic way that you did. You shouldn't even need to, right, if you're on the "winning side of the discussion"? Shouldn't it rather speak for itself?

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So is your job the tone police now? Is that the last bastion of disagreement left to you?

Personal anecdotes used to counter formal research is an old and familiar path. It's ok to dismiss them when used as such.

 

[-Peabody-]

I don't know why I go into obesity threads on ResetERA. How hard is it to shut your mouth when a bigger person is displayed in any sort of positive light?