They don't listen to anybody, as evidenced on this very page.
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Gillette’s inspiring new ad addressing toxic masculinity asks: “Is this the best a man can get?”
- Thread starter MouldyK
- Start date
since talking about it doesn't seem to be doing me any good, let's talk details then, you ask why women should be at least be included in the message? Well I'm gonna make the argument that if for example during the barbecue scene where men are parroting "boys will be boys" a couple of mothers were to be included in the choir as well, it would have significantly damaged the seemingly widespread interpretation that is going on right now of "this ad says that ALL men are evil and toxic", the inclusion of mothers in that scene wouldn't have shifted the main spotlight from men in the slightest since they would still have been the focus of the rest of the ad 99% of the time, but it would have made the message more complete and maybe, just maybe it would have inspired some mothers that indulge in the encouragement of toxic masculinity to rethink their behaviour, which was the focus of the ad all.
Dodge. Again. You're ignoring the historical context and imbalance of power. This argument only makes sense if men and women have been on a level playing field. They haven't.
You're not listening.
the chance of more people rethinking their wrongful behaviour toward toxic masculinity is a bad thing?
I am gonna ask you then, do you think that my small change in the ad would have actually made the whole situation worse? and how exactly? because that's what I am ultimately arguing, that a small inclusion in the ad would have made things better for the people affected by toxic masculinity
Even ignoring this, all that happens to this ad when you add women into the mix is you give dudes an excuse to shift a discussion about OUR behavious to a discussion about EVERYONE'S behaviour.
Further more, how is an ad about the best a man can get suddenly have a tinge of "and women dont forget yall got issues too!!"
The fuck?
Yes, because men are largely the ones not listening. You're proving my point by constantly taking the focus off of us and missing the message.
If you think the message in this ad was "everyone should be held accountable for toxic masculinity", you're wrong and not listening.
Terry Crews clearly says "men need to hold other men accountable".. it's in the ad you watched dude. This is a message to men, about men. Because it's not pretending like there's a level playing field and conveniently ignoring the imbalance of power and historical context, like you are.
So, including women in any way absolutely takes the focus off of the real problem, which is that men have a history of abusing their power and should be held accountable.. you know.. because women have absolutely nothing to do with that.
Imagine being so fragile and unwilling to listen that you take a message to men and dump it back onto women.
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That's a side effect that happens whether you want it or not, look at the "all lives matter" shit. It mostly sprung into existence on its own, not because the black lives matter movement started including everyone in their message.
yeah
because, like here, a group predominantly composed of white men couldn't stand the extremely gentle suggestion to do better
No. It sprung into existence because a bunch of ignorant ass people who can't listen get all sensitive and try to look virtuous by changing the narrative and undermining the entire point of the movement. Like you are doing in this thread.
So let the side effect be a side effect then. Why are you trying to include it in the main point? You dont see Black Lives Matter placating all this other dumb shit like you are suggesting.
Why exactly do you think black people get mad when someone poses this all lives matter bullshit?
I work at the ad agency which created the ad. I walked by our receptionist as she was fending off a phone call of someone screaming racial/sexist/homophobic/anti-semitic epithets at her because of the ad. Apparently she's been getting them all day.
What is wrong with people.
What is wrong with people.
/sticks finger in air
BUT
Women technically buy Gillette and use their products.
My god, some of you embarrass the hell out of me with your reactions to a simple message of not being a complete shit.
Even if it's not genuine, the sentiment is real and something we SHOULD be following.
That is NOT what I think the focus of the ad is, I don't know why you keep saying that it is.
Also I never said that there is a level playing field anywhere or ignoring the imbalance that there is between the genders, I said the opposite multiple times in fact when addressing responsibility.
You keep twisting my words so I'll stop responding because i don't want to spend my evening correcting every single thing you put in my mouth.
I just feel so attacked right now.
Cool, let me know when you're done.
if your reaction to the sentiment that "men should take responsibility for their actions and do better" is to respond "but women are at fault as well", you should read the first sentence again
and my argument is that even if that is true, if that brand made a video where part of the video is showing the danger of indulging in the encouragement of toxic masculinity, everyone that indulges in that behaviour should be represented at least in those scenes
that's an absurd oversimplification of my argument, but you already know that.
The video isn't about that. The video is about how men can do better and set a better example for the little boys who are watching us now.
Adding "but women also sometimes contribute to it and sometimes bully boys too" muddies the issue and makes the core point less effective.
Or maybe it's just filtering out the attempts at obfuscation.
There's no real reason a message about personal accountability should shift focus to another group and every reason it shouldn't.
"men need to do better"
Imma let you finish but
What about the women.
Interesting, let's take a look:
This is not the main aim of the ad. The ad was about men engaging in toxic masculinity and not holding each other accountable. You seem to think that the door was left open for women, when it was not. Everything involving women in this context was your own invention because of your failure to listen.
And all you've said in regard to addressing responsibility is "men and women both do it", and haven't bothered to acknowledge how the imbalance and abuse of power literally shaped this ad and the movements surrounding it.
notice how i said "if"
if someone isn't saying that, then they're fine - but if they are, then they should think about it some more
the fact that you think i was addressing you specifically means you should probably think about it some more
hefty if you can't get across whatever intelligent point you think you have in your over twelve posts in this thread, which is half of your posts in your entire tenure on this site, then maybe you don't have an intelligent point
I know i posted too fast, i already edited my comment to better reflect my point, which is mostly about the scenes depicting the encouragement of toxic behaviour. But I don't agree with the fact that including some women in specific parts of the ad muddies the issue, I actually believe that that it makes it more complete.
Turns out men do care about the inclusivity of women...but only to deflect responsability.
"But what about the women? I won't accept criticism of a overwhelmingly male issue if we don't blame women, who normally are the victims of this issue, equally"
"But what about the women? I won't accept criticism of a overwhelmingly male issue if we don't blame women, who normally are the victims of this issue, equally"
If you didn't mean to address me personally then I apologize, I'm honestly trying to respond very quickly since a lot of people are quoting me so I just automatically assumed that you were as well.
This shit is nuts. Motherfuckers really twisting themselves up to fit through hoops that they should not be jumping through.
Which is directly saying you want to shift some of the blame to women. This is the antithesis of calling for male accountability. It makes no sense plain and simple for the message. You don't build excuses into calls for accountability.
The thesis statement of the ad is the Terry Crews quote: "Men need to hold each other accountable". It does not add anything to the ad to show girls making fun of boys. It only makes the argument weaker.
Women in video games? Nah, we don't need those. That's forced. That's tokenism. That's not historically accurate.
Women in messages to men about problems men have? Gotta hold those ladies responsible!
That's because you're operating under the premise of "This ad is addressing toxic masculinity", so you think the conversation is also open to women, when that was never the intent.
Everyone who has a problem with this message and want to throw the ball into the women's side of the pool are on notice. Men holding men accountable.
Fucking act like a man, shut your yap, and take some responsibility.
Fucking act like a man, shut your yap, and take some responsibility.
It's a good ad but it's an oversimplification and lacks nuance, which you'd expect in ~2mins on such a huge cultural issue. The core idea, which is that men need to hold each other accountable for toxic behavior, is something that I 100% agree with.
That... is entirely unsurprising. I'm sorry for your coworker, having to do with these morons. Their outrage is rooted in insecurity.
That... is entirely unsurprising. I'm sorry for your coworker, having to do with these morons. Their outrage is rooted in insecurity.
User Banned (1 Month): Inflammatory false equivalencies over the basis of gender; thread derailment. Account in junior phase.
I disagree, imo it does, I already expanded on why even a small inclusion could have made a difference here:
When "what about black people?" doesn't work move on to "what about women?".
The tried and true "anyone but me" way.
The tried and true "anyone but me" way.
You're a fucking moron.
I'll take the ban, I don't give a shit. Holding this dumb shit accountable.
Yeah, your argument is "they should have included women so that way people wouldn't think it's all men". The problem here is that you're including women for the primary reason of appeasing people who were never listening in the first place. By Terry Crews saying "men need to hold other men accountable", we can piece together that some men are already listening and changing, and that this ad is absolutely not saying "all men". Not that it was saying it without this line anyways.
In short your argument is that including women makes it more complete because it might stifle some of the "not all men" arguments, which literally has nothing to do with women or if women are in the ad.
It's an asinine argument and you're still failing to explain why including women doesn't hurt the message.. and how it could possibly improve it.
The title of the ad is "The Best Men Can Be".
The entire aim of the ad is to point out that we can do better. They're using their own ad slogan to illustrate a point about the flaws in traditional masculine identity that give rise to toxic masculinity. This ad is about men and for men.
There could be another ad later that expands the concept to include the ways women feed into toxic masculinity, but again - toxic masculinity exists because of men. If we fix our shit, if we fix the SYSTEMIC PROBLEM inherent with our gender's idealized concept of itself, then everything else will settle along with it.
That's disgusting, and Nike has similar problems, but I think when you are looking at predator-capitalist companies like this you credit them for the good that they do (Kaep ad, this Gillette ad) and pressure them to change their labor practices. I do think these ads have a positive despite the exploitation that is behind the scenes.
Yeah. And I mean, we're gonna get bombarded with ads anyway, so I'd rather get progressive ads.