Gillette’s inspiring new ad addressing toxic masculinity asks: “Is this the best a man can get?”

Hefty · Jan 16, 2019

nynt9 said:
"all lives matter"

Sure, boil down every I said to "all lives matter" which was not at all the point I was trying to make, the point I was trying to make is that toxic masculinity is a societal issue perpetuated by EVERYONE, not just men(and no I don't believe that men and women have equal responsibility in tackling this issue but the brushing away of women's responsibility entirely from the discussion when it is indeed very much a reality is problematic in an ad aimed at criticising this behaviour and doesn't help much solving the problem).
The argument that I am making is the same that many people made when terry crews started speaking about about men being victims of abuse too, Terry wasn't saying "all live matter" but he was saying that "hey this can affect everyone and we should talk about the problem as something that can indeed affect everyone"

Pomerlaw said:
This is true but the ad is aimed at men.

This is the issue that I have with gender specific brands making ads about not completely gender specific problem. Yes it was aimed at men but not only men watched that ad and the portrayal of certain behaviours in the ad was non completely true to the reality that i know and i think that you as a brand have a responsibility to at least somewhat point out that the problem is broad and not unilateral.

Omegasquash · Jan 16, 2019

Hefty said:
This is the issue that I have with gender specific brands making ads about not completely gender specific problem. Yes it was aimed at men but not only men watched that ad and the portrayal of certain behaviours in the ad was non completely true to the reality that i know and i think that you as a brand have a responsibility to at least somewhat point out that the problem is broad and not unilateral.

Yeah, but we still have to do our part, you know? I don't think the ad was putting it all on men, either. As a society we've fostered this toxicity, and I think the ad took steps to highlight that. Nothing wrong with saying "hey guys..." I think.

In that way, you could even say it's catering to us.

See, I hear you about the societal part...I've been shamed by women and put down by my own mother when I was growing up for not being tough and dude-like. But it's still on us. Personally, I think that it's more manly (yet not exclusive to manliness, for lack of a better term) to include yourself in fighting the good fight, here. Look at it as a call to action.

Uno Venova · Jan 16, 2019

excelsiorlef said:
Lol.

Dude you're seriously gonna defend the company who decided to welcome all the reactionaries?

I mean they don't really even need defending, they're not even rejecting Gillette's message.

Surfinn · Jan 16, 2019

Hefty said:
Sure, boil down every I said to "all lives matter" which was not at all the point I was trying to make, the point I was trying to make is that toxic masculinity is a societal issue perpetuated by EVERYONE, not just men(and no I don't believe that men and women have equal responsibility in tackling this issue but the brushing away of women's responsibility entirely from the discussion when it is indeed very much a reality is problematic in an ad aimed at criticising this behaviour and doesn't help much solving the problem).
The argument that I am making is the same that many people made when terry crews started speaking about about men being victims of abuse too, Terry wasn't saying "all live matter" but he was saying that "hey this can affect everyone and we should talk about the problem as something that can indeed affect everyone"

This is the issue that I have with gender specific brands making ads about not completely gender specific problem. Yes it was aimed at men but not only men watched that ad and the portrayal of certain behaviours in the ad was non completely true to the reality that i know and i think that you as a brand have a responsibility to at least somewhat point out that the problem is broad and not unilateral.

Terry Crews said "men need to hold other men accountable", not "we all need to hold each other accountable".. because this is generally a huge problem with men and he is recognizing the power imbalance there. Just because we can cherry pick examples where women sometimes do this doesn't mean we need to take the spotlight off of men, where it should be.

Changing the argument to include women is missing the point.

The argument you're making very much is an "all lives matter" style approach, which completely invalidates the message being sent here.

Is there a crisis and outcry because women are largely abusing their power and exhibiting toxic masculinity? Where? If there's not, they shouldn't be included in this message.

excelsiorlef · Jan 16, 2019

Uno Venova said:
I mean they don't really even need defending, they're not even rejecting Gillette's message.

Is this like when you pretended Kevin Hart apologized meaningfully

Gotdatmoney · Jan 16, 2019

Hefty said:
Sure, boil down every I said to "all lives matter" which was not at all the point I was trying to make

When you look at an ad about toxic masculinity and are asking for women to be addressed you are doing the all lives matter dance.

It really doesn't matter how you sugar coat this. Toxic masculintity isn't this huge issue because women also perpetuate it in some aspects. Its an issue because of men. Men are the primary source, if you want to change it they are the source that needs to hear this.

Not being able to accept that without jumping to whataboutism means you dont get it.

Hefty · Jan 16, 2019

Surfinn said:
Terry Crews said "men need to hold other men accountable", not "we all need to hold each other accountable".. because this is generally a huge problem with men and he is recognizing the power imbalance there. Just because we can cherry pick examples where women sometimes do this doesn't mean we need to take the spotlight off of men, where it should be.

Changing the argument to include women is missing the point.

The argument you're making very much is an "all lives matter" style approach, which completely invalidates the message being sent here.

I never said that we should take the spotlight from men, I specifically said that the responsibility is not 50/50 in my comment precisely to avoid this kind of interpretation of my words but I guess i failed lol. The spotlight should 100% remain on men but women shouldn't be completely in the dark either.

Surfinn said:
Is there a crisis and outcry because women are largely abusing their power and exhibiting toxic masculinity? Where? If there's not, they shouldn't be included in this message.

The main aim of the ad was talking about the encouragement or indifference towards toxic masculinity, which is something both genders indulges in. So I do indeed feel like they should have been included in the message, even if just marginally.

Uno Venova · Jan 16, 2019

excelsiorlef said:
Is this like when you pretended Kevin Hart apologized meaningfully

I'm pretty sure I just said he apologized when posters said he never did. But continue bringing up past thread drama.

cebri · Jan 16, 2019

is this a micro aggression?

JaseMath · Jan 16, 2019

I guess my issue with the ad is that it tries to pin the overarching problem onto a single base—men—when really the problem is systemic. People shouldn't act in the ways portrayed regardless of race and sex. I like what the ad is trying to say, however.

Deleted member 43084 · Jan 16, 2019

checkmate.

Gotdatmoney · Jan 16, 2019

Surfinn said:
People are working really hard to ignore this core component. Like fucking overtime

A lot of takes including some in this thread have to invent a lot of shit that isn't in the video or relevant to make a view point stick. The video is very clear in its point. I dont understand how the fuck some of these takes are appearing.

Surfinn · Jan 16, 2019

Hefty said:
I never said that we should take the spotlight from men, I specifically said that the responsibility is not 50/50 in my comment precisely to avoid this kind of interpretation of my words but I guess i failed lol. The spotlight should 100% remain on men but women shouldn't be completely in the dark either.

The main aim of the ad was talking about the encouragement or indifference towards toxic masculinity, which is something both genders indulges in. So I do indeed feel like they should have been included in the message, even if just marginally.

Including women absolutely takes men out of the spotlight and mucks up the message, full stop. That doesn't mean women don't also sometimes engage in these behaviors, but the issue here is men abusing their power and not being held accountable. Men are and should be the focus of the message. Not race, not women, but men systematically holding and abusing their power.

You're drowning out the message, and frankly, making a habit of missing the point.

PhoncipleBone · Jan 16, 2019

minimaxir said:
checkmate.

LOL.

excelsiorlef · Jan 16, 2019

minimaxir said:
checkmate.

"Toxic masculinity!?

I'll fucking show you toxic masculinity bitch!"

Lol fucking losers

Surfinn · Jan 16, 2019

minimaxir said:
checkmate.

Mission Accomplished

invid02 · Jan 16, 2019

Weiss said:
Even if they are insincere (which is certainly possible, we're talking about a corporation) isn't it good that an entity solely interested in its profit sees benefit in promoting a socially positive agenda?

I don't find the attack that's currently happing utilising extreme cases to serve the agenda on labelling masculinity as toxic very socially positive to begin with, so probably not

UnpopularBlargh · Jan 16, 2019

excelsiorlef said:
Lol.

Dude you're seriously gonna defend the company who decided to welcome all the reactionaries?

You didn't see him defend Kevin Hart in the multiple other threads?

Weiss · Jan 16, 2019

invid02 said:
I don't find the attack that's currently happing utilising extreme cases to serve the agenda on labelling masculinity as toxic very socially positive to begin with, so probably not

Literally all the ad is saying is that it's beneficial if men hold themselves to standards like "don't be a rapist."

excelsiorlef · Jan 16, 2019

UnpopularBlargh said:
You didn't see him defend Kevin Hart in the multiple other threads?

Check my later posts ;)

Hefty · Jan 16, 2019

Gotdatmoney said:
Blaming the ad for not featuring women's role in perpetuating toxic masculinity ignores

1) Men are by far the primary, secondary tertiary etc reason the attitudes are wide spread as we held and still do hold the majority of the influencing power to spread or diminish social issues

2) It's not like dudes as a whole even listen to women when they are talking. If all it took was women saying "I don't like that shit" to stop it, we wouldn't even be having this discussion

Surfinn said:
People are working really hard to ignore this core component. Like fucking overtime

nobody is ignoring anything, but the issue isn't completely black and white, there is space for nuance and grey areas in this discussion even if the grey areas are not the main issue, like jesus, there are 20+ pages of people rightfully pointing the spotlight on men's responsibility, are people saying that the thread going to explode into sexist propaganda if we spend a couple of pages discussing other aspects of this ad and of this issue that are less talked about, but are indeed still part of it?

Sloth Guevara · Jan 16, 2019

Hefty said:
I never said that we should take the spotlight from men, I specifically said that the responsibility is not 50/50 in my comment precisely to avoid this kind of interpretation of my words but I guess i failed lol. The spotlight should 100% remain on men but women shouldn't be completely in the dark either.

The main aim of the ad was talking about the encouragement or indifference towards toxic masculinity, which is something both genders indulges in. So I do indeed feel like they should have been included in the message, even if just marginally.

Your idea that women are 50% responsible is laughable.

Gotdatmoney · Jan 16, 2019

JasonMCG said:
I guess my issue with the ad is that it tries to pin the overarching problem onto a single base—men—when really the problem is systemic.

This is a male issue. I do not get how this is difficult to grasp.

People shouldn't act in the ways portrayed regardless of race and sex.

The point was not just, "this stuff is bad". The point was men have created a culture of boys will be boys, misogyny and overall toxic views of masculinity that lead to the outcomes in the video. The point was that men need to hold other men responsible and work together to stop the the causes that leads to stuff like #MeToo. The point was not just, dont be a bully or sexist

I like what the ad is trying to say, however.

I mean you missed a large portion of the point

UnpopularBlargh · Jan 16, 2019

excelsiorlef said:
Check my later posts ;)

Just saw. My mistake :)

invid02 · Jan 16, 2019

Weiss said:
Literally all the ad is saying is that it's beneficial if men hold themselves to standards like "don't be a rapist."

On the surface yes, peel back a layer and it's a multinational guilty of other morally questionable labour practices trying to lecture their customer base on being a man which is offensive enough. Taken in context and relation to what's happening as a whole, and it's part of a concerted effort to demonise masculinity which I don't agree with

Surfinn · Jan 16, 2019

Hefty said:
nobody is ignoring anything, but the issue isn't completely black and white, there is space for nuance and grey areas in this discussion even if the grey areas are not the main issue, like jesus, there are 20+ pages of people rightfully pointing the spotlight on men's responsibility, are people saying that the thread going to explode into sexist propaganda if we spend a couple of pages discussing other aspects of this ad and of this issue that are less talked about, but are indeed still part of it?

You just ignored everything I said in my previous post. Do women have a thoroughly documented history of holding power and abusing it? Is there a movement asking for women to be held accountable? If so, by who? Do women have a history of oppressing and controlling men?

Men need to hold themselves and other men accountable because of their history of holding and abusing their power.

Why on earth should any of the focus be on women here?

Hefty · Jan 16, 2019

Sloth Guevara said:
Your idea that women are 50% responsible is laughable.

what???? I specifically said the opposite:

Hefty said:
I specifically said that the responsibility is not 50/50 in my comment precisely to avoid this kind of interpretation of my words but I guess i failed lol.

excelsiorlef · Jan 16, 2019

invid02 said:
On the surface yes, peel back a layer and it's a multinational guilty of other morally questionable labour practices trying to lecture their customer base on being a man which is offensive enough. Taken in context and relation to what's happening as a whole, and it's part of a concerted effort to demonise masculinity which I don't agree with

You said it Gilette hates men

Lol.

Goddamn

Demonizes because it says don't be a shithead.

LookAtMeGo · Jan 16, 2019

Their slogan is "The best a man can get"

The whole idea behind the commercial was a play on that slogan to address a real issue involving MEN.

Sloth Guevara · Jan 16, 2019

Hefty said:
what???? I specifically said the opposite:

Sorry, read wrong.

But I'm not sure what your point is.
I don't think that anyone will deny that even women can and do further patriarchy.
Any women who knows even a little bit about feminism and gender roles will know that men have issues.

But the patriarchy is first and foremost upheld by men in positions of power.

Hefty · Jan 16, 2019

Surfinn said:
Why on earth should any of the focus be on women here?

I already said why(at least for this ad), but you seem persistent in ignoring what I said:

Hefty said:
The main aim of the ad was talking about the encouragement or indifference towards toxic masculinity, which is something both genders indulges in. So I do indeed feel like they should have been included in the message, even if just marginally.

Sloth Guevara · Jan 16, 2019

invid02 said:
On the surface yes, peel back a layer and it's a multinational guilty of other morally questionable labour practices trying to lecture their customer base on being a man which is offensive enough. Taken in context and relation to what's happening as a whole, and it's part of a concerted effort to demonise masculinity which I don't agree with

You don't understand what toxic masculinity means and where it originated do you?

Doof · Jan 16, 2019

i yearn for the sweet release of death

PlanetSmasher · Jan 16, 2019

Hefty said:
I already said why(at least for this ad), but you seem persistent in ignoring what I said:

Toxic masculinity is a male problem that is perpetuated by men and would not exist without men to support it. Even discounting the fact that women can take part in it, men are the common denominator across the entire spectrum of toxic masculinity.

This is an ad for us and about us. It did not need a 'what about the women' part.

invid02 · Jan 16, 2019

Nice bait but I'm gonna go fire up the grill and crack open a few cold ones

Surfinn · Jan 16, 2019

Hefty said:
I already said why(at least for this ad), but you seem persistent in ignoring what I said:

I'm not ignoring that, you're just doing a shitty job of explaining why women should be included in the message. Because of the fact that sometimes, some women, somewhere, engage in the same or similar behaviors, they should be included.. what. You can make that same argument for almost anything.

Like I said, you're blatantly ignoring the historical context of men holding power over women and abusing it. You just keep saying over and over "well, women do engage in this behavior sometimes too", while refusing to examine why this message exists in the first place.

Gotdatmoney · Jan 16, 2019

Hefty said:
nobody is ignoring anything,

You are. Several times now

but the issue isn't completely black and white,◇ there is space for nuance and grey areas in this discussion even if the grey areas are not the main issue, like jesus, there are 20+ pages of people rightfully pointing the spotlight on men's responsibility, are people saying that the thread going to explode into sexist propaganda if we spend a couple of pages discussing other aspects of this ad and of this issue that are less talked about, but are indeed still part of it?

You are the one that said the ad misses the mark because it doesn't address women. I think frankly, it is a fucking joke that this is even a take away people are having and shifting the discussion towards women is to take comfort in the ideal that its not just men.

It's lame and personally I'm gonna call it out. You wanna address women's supposedly moderate portion of upholding toxic masculinity, I'm gonna call out both the here and now and the hypocracy of wanting the institution with significantly less power to share in the blame the one time dudes get called out.

excelsiorlef · Jan 16, 2019

invid02 said:
Nice bait but I'm gonna go fire up the grill and crack open a few cold ones

Folks this is why post count and registration date do mean something sometimes

Midnight Jon · Jan 16, 2019

invid02 said:
part of a concerted effort to demonise masculinity

remind me again how an ad with completely milquetoast points like

- stopping roughhousing before it gets too ridiculous
- not tolerating other forms of bullying
- not tolerating sexual harassment

is supposed to "demonize" masculinity, unless the entire point is that the current social construction of masculinity is actively harmful to men?

invid02 said:
Nice bait but I'm gonna go fire up the grill and crack open a few cold ones

and there it is. fuck off.

Doof · Jan 16, 2019

Midnight Jon said:
remind me again how an ad with completely milquetoast points like

- stopping roughhousing before it gets too ridiculous
- not tolerating other forms of bullying
- not tolerating sexual harassment

is supposed to "demonize" masculinity, unless the entire point is that the current social construction of masculinity is actively harmful to men?

bcause if u do those things ur a homo dude

the biggest /s possible

Midnight Jon · Jan 16, 2019

Doof said:
bcause if u do those things ur a homo dude

well then joke's on them i'm already pansexual

Surfinn · Jan 16, 2019

invid02 said:
Nice bait but I'm gonna go fire up the grill and crack open a few cold ones

"well, my argument sucks and is getting thrashed, God Bless"

Doof · Jan 16, 2019

Midnight Jon said:
well then joke's on them i'm already pansexual

Drat, foiled again!!!!

LookAtMeGo · Jan 16, 2019

invid02 said:
Nice bait but I'm gonna go fire up the grill and crack open a few cold ones

Be sure to crush a few cans on that thick skull of yours after you're done chugging them.

SoH · Jan 16, 2019

Midnight Jon said:
remind me again how an ad with completely milquetoast points like

- stopping roughhousing before it gets too ridiculous
- not tolerating other forms of bullying
- not tolerating sexual harassment

is supposed to "demonize" masculinity, unless the entire point is that the current social construction of masculinity is actively harmful to men?

Deep state third wave feminist agents are coming to steal testosterone in the night.

Midnight Jon · Jan 16, 2019

SmiteOfHand said:
Deep state third wave feminist agents are coming to steal testosterone in the night.

SHIT, I KNEW THE SOY BOYS WOULD COME FOR MAH BALLS

shintoki · Jan 16, 2019

Even if you want to argue women are some how partially at fault with toxic masculinity. The first few dozen steps are to fix it with men, then maybe bring women back up into this discussion if you want to, but I assume most of the issues would be fixed

Matheulbeuk · Jan 16, 2019

Just saw the add, it's pretty great. To continue on what other have been saying, I dont really get why people get upset. I find more and more funny everyday that the people who call themself against PC, safe space, etc, are the first now to cry about anything.

We lives in a really strange world. Hope Gillete keep add like this.

pizoxuat · Jan 16, 2019

Women are constantly having discussions about how to raise boys without toxic masculinity and policing each other, often to a nitpicky degree. We got our conversation handled, ya'll worry about each other. It's not like toxic men listen to us in the first place.

Gotdatmoney · Jan 16, 2019

LookAtMeGo said:
Be sure to crush a few cans on that thick skull of yours after you're done chugging them.

Cans? He's a real bro, he's drinking outta bottles man.

Gillette’s inspiring new ad addressing toxic masculinity asks: “Is this the best a man can get?”

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