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Linus815

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,789
I disagree the wind is a perfect guide it could have easily been used as it already is. Even BoTW has to use a map but maps take away your ability to truly immerse yourself in an open world.

I dont understand why you think that maps or compasses would take away immersion when they're used IRL for land navigation. Surely you don't expect Jin to know the entirity of Tsushima island by heart, knowing where each person and settlement is. And I mean, I still kept opening the map screen in GoT to select my next marker. I wish I had a simple compass on the top of the screen like in newer AC's as well, instead of having to constantly swipe on the touchpad to see cartoony streaks show what direction I need to go in.

if true immersion is the focus then I think metro exodus/far cry 2 are the kings. You physically have to look at the map, and they get populated/marked up as you explore.
 

leng jai

Member
Nov 2, 2017
15,119
I dont understand why you think that maps or compasses would take away immersion when they're used IRL for land navigation. Surely you don't expect Jin to know the entirity of Tsushima island by heart, knowing where each person and settlement is. And I mean, I still kept opening the map screen in GoT to select my next marker. I wish I had a simple compass on the top of the screen like in newer AC's as well, instead of having to constantly swipe on the touchpad to see cartoony streaks show what direction I need to go in.

if true immersion is the focus then I think metro exodus/far cry 2 are the kings. You physically have to look at the map, and they get populated/marked up as you explore.

Exodus is definitely one of the most immersive games you can get in ranger mode. There's first person animations for everything, equipment degradation, a physical compass, a physical map, a gas mask and dynamic weather that actually affects gameplay. People can't expect games to have no map, no waypoints and expect to stumble upon everything naturally. They sure as hell doesn't happen in real life. You'd just walk around like a headless chicken until you accidentally find something.

Theres absolutely nothing immersive about Ghosts outside of the sound design so I'm not even sure why that's a relevant argument. Just because they make attempts to eliminate a traditional waypoint doesn't suddenly make the game immersive. Almost everything else in the design is "gamey", they even ripped the instant looting on horseback straight from Assassin's Creed.
 

Spinluck

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
28,480
Chicago
The best open world of recent years is BoTW. The act of exploration itself (the traversal) and sandbox nature of the game makes it a joy.

RDR2 is also a great map to explore, with much more to do.

Witcher 3's map was also much more interesting to explore. Especially if you remove the ? from the map. The loop of travelling, discovering a village and taking contracts from the notice board/ missions from locals was great.

I was surprising to hear that BoTW inspired the exploration in this game. It felt as by the numbers as possible in its design.

It's not bag per day, it's just not engaging. I have no reason to explore because none of it is interesting. It's pretty to look at but it does nothing to differentiate itself for the typical AAA open world spoon feeding experience.

As much as I loved parts of this game I think a huge portion of the open world could be cut. The combat should've been focused on a bit more but it's normal for these games to try and do everything now.
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,212
Greater Vancouver
So much of the open world is busywork. It's full of gorgeous environmental design, from the trees, the weather, and the lighting... But god I just don't care about what I find because it's rarely going to ask me to do anything interesting or make me feel involved.

I appreciate the wind effect to guide you, and the smoke trails on the horizon, because atleast then, I'm not just staring at a minimap to follow a breadcrumb trail. I can atleast appreciate the world. I just wish it was to engage in something that wasn't just bandits and pretty mediocre haikus.
 

KrAzEd

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,015
Brooklyn, NY
Fell in love with the game at first but I've been having trouble going back to it for the same reason. Combat is superb but the exploration is pretty by the numbers. I blame Ubisoft for over saturating the market with open world games and also for making their towers and bandit strongholds the norm.
 

Bruceleeroy

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,381
Orange County
I dont understand why you think that maps or compasses would take away immersion when they're used IRL for land navigation. Surely you don't expect Jin to know the entirity of Tsushima island by heart, knowing where each person and settlement is. And I mean, I still kept opening the map screen in GoT to select my next marker. I wish I had a simple compass on the top of the screen like in newer AC's as well, instead of having to constantly swipe on the touchpad to see cartoony streaks show what direction I need to go in.

if true immersion is the focus then I think metro exodus/far cry 2 are the kings. You physically have to look at the map, and they get populated/marked up as you explore.

I agree with FC2 that game had such an excellent way of making you feel in the world. I just think GoT really excells in their environmental design. I loved just looking around and seeing landmark after landmark of places I wanted to explore. I also agree though that the game fails at doing anything really interesting with those landmarks. It has the same problem for me as BoTW - A gorgeous world to explore but nothing rewarding to do in it. I never found myself swiping to make the wind guide me because there are constant visual hints at where you should go outside of the wind. Leaves constantly move in the direction of where you should be heading


So much of the open world is busywork. It's full of gorgeous environmental design, from the trees, the weather, and the lighting... But god I just don't care about what I find because it's rarely going to ask me to do anything interesting or make me feel involved.

I appreciate the wind effect to guide you, and the smoke trails on the horizon, because atleast then, I'm not just staring at a minimap to follow a breadcrumb trail. I can atleast appreciate the world. I just wish it was to engage in something that wasn't just bandits and pretty mediocre haikus.

Yeah I agree. I have to imagine a lot of the constraints were due to team size. Hopefully with the success the game is enjoying that will change for the second one
 

Boy

Member
Apr 24, 2018
4,565
I feel the same. I love the combat, and i enjoyed the main missions. The world is beautiful to look at, but by the time i reached to act 2 i didn't care about exploring anymore. It's just the same ol same ol and nothing interesting. A lot of the activities in the world feels like a chore (same thing in infamous games)
and not fun. I mean who at sucker punch thought it would be fun chasing 49 foxes?

I think that Ghost would have been better off being more of an linear open area kind of game kinda like God of war/last of us 2 that focuses more in depth on the combat and story.
 
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Mechaplum

Enlightened
Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,828
JP
Open worlds done by Rockstar, BGS and CDPR. CDPR being the weaker of the three, but for their first open world with TW3, they certainly outdid most. I imagine Cyberpunk will be even better.

For me it's games like RDR2 and Witcher 3, at least when it comes to open world exploration.

SPOILERS BELOW

For example in RDR2, you can be riding along and randomly come across a shack in the woods. Outside is an old woman who looks like a witch, and she tells you to go away. If you leave, nothing happens. If you linger for a bit, she'll sick her dogs on you. You shoot the dogs, kill the "witch", rummage through the shack, and find half a treasure map.

Then later in the game, in a completely different area, you come across another shack in the woods. This time it's an old man yelling at you to get off his property. If you leave, nothing happens. If you stay, he starts shooting at you from his porch. You kill the dude (which grants you a rare shotgun), rummage through the shack, and....find the other half of the treasure map you found like 15 hours earlier and forgot about!

Which then leads to a treasure hunt.

Like, how cool is that?

Yeah I agree, even though I couldn't complete RDR2 the world is pretty amazing. Also hoping that Cyberpunk delivers in this respect.
 

FFNB

Associate Game Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
6,125
Los Angeles, CA
Personally, I thought it was the most enjoyable open world I've explored all generation. The art design is certainly a primary reason why I was so captivated by just picking a direction and seeing where it went. I didn't feel particularly compelled to explore every nook in cranny in Breath of the Wild, for example, because, to be honest, I didn't find the world as visually engaging. I loved BoTW, but perhaps it was the shallow combat that made exploring Hyrule not as exciting as I was expecting. For example, in GoT, I didn't mind when my exploration was interrupted by bandits or mongols, because the combat in that game is so damn fun and satisfying. In BoTW for example, running into an enemy mob was more of a nuisance, because most of the time I was worried about wasting my really cool sword on a trash mob, so I avoided combat outside of main encounters as much as I could (I wanted to save my best weapons for "real challenges").

Tsushima was also so visually distinct in each location that I never felt like I was suffering from asset repetition. Sure, the interiors of homes were pretty much the same in terms of assets, if not layouts, but the locations themselves screamed history and character. During my first playthrough of the game, I literally sunk over 20 hours into the game just exploring, having only completed 3 main story missions (one so I could have access to stealth kills, and the other, so I could have access to the bow, and I think just one extra one after that). I was so captivated by the world, and how alive everything felt, that I just got sidetracked so much by the extras. Not to mention any random sidequests I uncovered that aren't marked on the map (of which there are plenty, as many of them only pop up if you either clear a mongol camp, or talk to an NPC that tells you about a point of interest).

Question marks on a map isn't an "Ubisoft style" map. It's a standard of the open world genre these days. I personally don't have a problem with them, it's only when there is such an overwhelming amount of them on the screen, like in The Witcher 3, or Assassin's Creed games, that it can sometimes feel too much, but even then, none of us are actually forced to engage with them.

I'm currently playing through GoT on Lethal difficulty, and in this playthrough, I've completely disregarded using the map at all. I've just been hopping on my horse and riding in a direction, with the sole exception of specifically getting the more resource charm as soon as I was able to free roam, as I knew that I'd want to upgrade my gear as quickly as I could because of the higher difficulty level. Outside of that one shrine, I've just been roaming the land like a wandering samurai, and since I don't have the pressure of wanting to play through the story to avoid spoilers, I'm able to just soak in the world at a more leisurely pace. It's made this second playthrough just as enjoyable as the first, if not moreso. I've already platinumed the game, and collected 100% of everything you can collect during that first playthrough, so now I'm just allowing myself to soak in all of the beautiful scenery and visual storytelling the game has packed into it.

For me, not every square inch of a game needs to have some kind of content or deeper purpose to it. The biggest example I can give from my gaming experiences is Shadow of the Colossus. That game is nothing but 16 boss battles, and a large expanse of land between each encounter, yet I spent countless hours just roaming around on Agro, scouring every nook and cranny, not because I expected to find anything like side quests and missions, but because the world itself was so beautiful and haunting and mysterious, and I just wanted to see it all.

I don't particularly suffer from OCD, so unfulfilled "?" on the map don't bother me, and I never feel like I'm forced to pursue them and check them off of a list. I enjoy the AC games. I enjoyed Day's Gone, Horizon, Ghost of Tsushima, The Witcher 3, etc, and it's because I just played the games until I was full, and didn't get obsessed with having to "clear" everything on the map. I find that, for me, at least, it makes my experiences with those style of games much more enjoyable. If I ever find myself getting tired of mindless exploration, I'll tackle a side quest, or a main mission, or maybe I will investigate a nearby question mark to break things up. The beauty of the open world genre is its freedom, and not letting the "gamey" aspects of the experience like map markers and waypoints and question marks make you feel like you just have to follow them. I'm not a fan of checklist gameplay myself depending on the game loop, and the enjoyability of said game loop, but like I said before, I don't think open world games are necessarily forcing you to do that (although AC does have the issue of Level requirements for some missions, when can make you feel the need to grind levels, but even then, I've cleared missions that I was "underleveled" for in those games, so I think their level requirements are more "suggestions" than actual "you need to be this level to attempt this mission.")
 
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Smokey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,176
I agree.

I cleared all of the Strongholds on the first island and did a fair bit of the side quests, but I had my fill a little into Act 2. Just started going for the Story and Mythical missions.

Ubi has provided a "template" for open world games. Even with my complaints, I still think Ghosts did it better than most.
 

Dphex

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,811
Cologne, Germany
The world looks great but the copy and paste elements are not really great. first it is "oh what is this? a shrine on a mountain" then it is "ah, thats another shrine on a mountain and then "oh no...just another shrine on a mountain"

the problem with this game is, the main story is not meaty enough to justify all the open world filler content, there is so much more of this filler content and "follow the trail, beat some bandits" sidequests than main content that it gets tiring.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,705
Open World games have to have iterative and repetitive chores to fill the negative space (unless you're Shadow of the Colossus). Its why I don't think i'll ever enjoy that kind of game as much as a well paced, well directed linear narrative.
 

Dphex

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,811
Cologne, Germany
I found that Sony open world games tend to have open world that are kind of a drag to explore.

The biggest offender was Spider-Man in that regard...everything is marked on the map so you just go to these marked backpacks and landmarks without any sense of exploration. and there are the same three events popping up in your surrounding area all the time while you have to unlock some dull Ubisoft towers straight from 2012.

as a result the city just felt like a backdrop and not like a real fun playground to explore.
 

FFNB

Associate Game Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
6,125
Los Angeles, CA
I dont understand why you think that maps or compasses would take away immersion when they're used IRL for land navigation. Surely you don't expect Jin to know the entirity of Tsushima island by heart, knowing where each person and settlement is. And I mean, I still kept opening the map screen in GoT to select my next marker. I wish I had a simple compass on the top of the screen like in newer AC's as well, instead of having to constantly swipe on the touchpad to see cartoony streaks show what direction I need to go in.

if true immersion is the focus then I think metro exodus/far cry 2 are the kings. You physically have to look at the map, and they get populated/marked up as you explore.

You don't actually have to constantly swipe up on the touch screen, though. It's something I eventually noticed while exploring the world. If you, say, set a waypoint to a location and close the map, a large gust of wind will point you in that direction, right? However, the wind will always then be pointing in that direction, even when it's not a big gust. Look at the grass around you, or the leaves, or the particles/fireflies in the air around you; it will all still be subtly blowing and pointing in the direction you set your waypoint. And then, every few seconds or so, around the sides of the screen, you will see a mini version of the wind gust further pointing in your direction. And if you really, really need to, you can swipe up on the touchpad for the more overt wind gust, but it's not necessary if you have a waypoint set.

Once I noticed that, it reduced the amount of time I went to the map screen even more. It's a really nice additional layer they added to the primary "guiding wind" mechanic that I think is pretty awesome. Sometimes I'll just pick a spot at random on the map to set a waypoint, then travel to that spot without using the touchpad guide or the map at all to get there. It's pretty fun playing that way!

I'm not saying a compass wouldn't be nice or anything, but the less I was thinking about map markers and objectives, and just observing the environment, the more connected I personally felt to the game world.
 

Bushido

Senior Game Designer
Verified
Feb 6, 2018
1,850
Really astonished to read that, because exploring the island of Tsushima has been the most fun and felt the most natural since Breath of the Wild for me. Obviously there are lots of similarities to Ubisoft-style open world games, but it still managed to feel like almost the polar opposite, because the map is NOT that cluttered with icons and quests, it feels like you're doing everything at your own pace and are not pulled in all directions at any given time. They give the world/landscape plenty of time and space to breathe and it offers just the right amount of content imo. I just loved roaming around, soaking it all in, enjoying the vistas, stumbling across shrines, hot springs, finding Mongol camps that actually serve a purpose (shipyard, logging, whaling...) and dismantling them, getting customization rewards at the end of traversal challenges etc.
Of course, a lot of the content is similar or the same when you go for 100%, but the beauty, art direction and composition of the world still made it worthwhile for me (that I really enjoyed the story and characters certainly helped as well). Plus, I almost completely disagree on the side missions, because I think most of them offered interesting backgrounds, stories and tragedies, even if the gameplay variety is somewhat limited.
Overall this is easily my GOTY so far and in my top 5 of the generation (Switch excluded), especially because of how much I enjoyed the world and exploration.
 
Apr 19, 2018
3,970
Germany
For me it was the comlete opposite. I was not satisfied until i exlored every nook and cranny. The world was way too beautiful to not be explored imo. Didn't use fast travel even once because exploring was such a joy for me.
 

Fuhgeddit

#TeamThierry
Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,716
I found myself rushing the side stuff because I can't taken open world games. I love the combat though. Pretty excited to see the new stuff added to the game that seems like it'll be a good addition for someone like me.
 

Spinluck

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
28,480
Chicago
True of GoT and Horizon for sure. Beautiful worlds, but absolutely dull to explore. They lack the excitement of discovery that games like BOTW, Elder Scrolls, or Witcher 3 had.
Agreed.

Each of those games have different goals but I much prefer the engagement over the pure eye candy. Although, my HDD is filled to the brim of photo mode snaps from both Ghost and Horizon lol.
 

Oaklight

Avenger
Jun 16, 2018
933
This game was a magical experience for me up until act 2 until I hit a wall and sort of started to lose interest in the game. When it comes to the side missions and side content you basically see and do everything the game has to offer by the end of act 1.

I actually 100% the game but honestly I didn't really enjoy doing so because it felt more like house cleaning or data entry than anything that was actually challenging or fun. It's a great game but I honestly think it would have been better as a linear action game or a soulslike.
 

beelulzebub

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,597
Yeah, I stopped playing early on in act 2, after 100% clearing the first island. I'd gotten my fill of Fox dens, camps to free, and choose your own haiku (I'd choose lines without looking and see if it made sense at the end of it).
 

Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,794
Yeah I'm halfway through Act 2 and it just...everything is the same. Something terrible has happened -> follow some footsteps > kill generic ass enemies. It's a shame because it's one of the most beautiful games of this generation but I see stuff on the map and don't even want to bother.
 

Raysoul

Fat4All Ruined My Rug
Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,016
True of GoT and Horizon for sure. Beautiful worlds, but absolutely dull to explore. They lack the excitement of discovery that games like BOTW, Elder Scrolls, or Witcher 3 had.

Aside from large towns, Witcher 3 has nothing to explore. The forests all looks the same, small settlements looks the same, points of interests are usually in ugly ruins. It's a better example of a checkmark open world.
 

Subxero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
611
United States
I've made it about 3/4 through the second island and have enjoyed every minute of it.

Exploration is something that I personally really enjoy and open world games like this and the Ubi games gives that to me. I'm also into all the collecting. I do as much of the side mission and collectibles before I progress the story. I think the side mission stories have mostly interesting.
 

-Tetsuo-

Unlimited Capacity
Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,594
It doesn't really have anything to do with that I feel. It has to do with you becoming insanely overpowered a few hours into the game. Halfway through Act 1, anything that you find with exploration is almost worthless and all the interesting quests are already marked on the map so you just run straight to them.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,705
Aside from large towns, Witcher 3 has nothing to explore. The forests all looks the same, small settlements looks the same, points of interests are usually in ugly ruins. It's a better example of a checkmark open world.

The Flora in Witcher 3 was very varied and placed in locations that made sense. Traversing that world felt less game-like than previous Open Worlds because of the way it flowed in a way that made sense and it didn't take too long to get around thanks to the trails. If you mean going off the path to look around then yeah, its not nearly as interesting as the story driven quests but those are frequent and provide context to exploring areas.
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,212
Greater Vancouver
Yeah I agree. I have to imagine a lot of the constraints were due to team size. Hopefully with the success the game is enjoying that will change for the second one
i think the major hurdle in my appreciation of the world is that terrain doesn't matter outside of enemy camps. I'm not thinking "fuck, maybe I can use these cliffs so i can survive this fight against these guys" or trying to factor in the risk in encounters because... the combat is pretty easy? Like if I'm going Ghost, it's because I'm moreso just trying to find something to do that's different from every fight out in the field. I'm never going to be ambushed in a precarious area, I'm never at real risk of fighting near a cliff. These powerful winds and storming clouds are nothing but a neat effect for taking a photo.

The one really interesting encounter I had was an early sidequest where a bunch of archers were hanging out by a river beneath a bridge. But I had stumbled onto this because I was chasing a bird, and had fallen into the river and found myself surrounded with these guys firing at me. Suddenly I'm in a dangerous spot, on my back foot on interesting terrain. I hadn't even found tbe quest-giver yet, it was just a dangerous fight. it's interesting to think how the grappling hook might have been utilized if I had done this fight even later.

But that is one encounter among countless more. Terrain just hasn't mattered since.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
Its pretty incredible how the line is so thin between being "regular open-world" and "ubisoft open-world" that it basically equates to whether you put question marks on your map or not.


Can you actually give an example of what you would like the game to offer that is more unique when it comes to side quests? Like, its a Samurai/Ninja game where you slice up bad guys and free your home from the clutches of these bad guys. Im not sure what further the game can bring to the table mechanically other than killing these bad guys with your toolset.
Uh...I mean there is actually a pretty big difference between "Ubisoft open world" and open world games that don't follow that formula. GoT largely does feel like an Assassin's Creed game in terms of world and quest design (and even combat and stealth gameplay to a certain degree). Breath of the Wild, The Witcher 3, Gravity Rush, Skyrim, Fallout, etc. are all open world games that feel nothing like an Ubisoft open world game. Even inFamous, Suckerpunch's previous world, feels very different as an open world than GoT/AC.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
True of GoT and Horizon for sure. Beautiful worlds, but absolutely dull to explore. They lack the excitement of discovery that games like BOTW, Elder Scrolls, or Witcher 3 had.
At least Horizon had very unique and fun combat and enemy design. I definitely found the world design to be more interesting in Horizon as well, maybe not in terms of exploration but in terms of combat encounters the terrain was far more important for encounters and also more varied. Some of this is a consequence of Tsushima using a more grounded setting but at the end of the day it's not nearly as engaging as Horizon in terms of gameplay.
 

Nintendo

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,383
Is it "Ubisoft-style" at this point? Sony are the worst offenders at it right now.
 

Philippo

Developer
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
7,918
My reactions where:
Act I: oh... so this is it? hum ok i'll try some side content...
Act II: ok now i got the mood, finally the side content is paying off
Act III: jfc if i get asked to clear one more goddamn mongol camp or follow another yellow bird in my 2 hours playthrough i'll just quit, i'll probably only stick to the main mission