Germany considers U-turn on nuclear phaseout due to Russian's invasion of Ukraine.

[entremet]

I'm not German, but I am a fan of nuclear power. France kept their nuclear plants running, so I guess I didn't get Germany's retreat, especially with climate change and so on.

Seems like Merkel's decisions with relying Russia gas and pulling the plug on nuclear are looking very bad in hindsight.

Germany considers U-turn on nuclear phaseout – DW – 08/03/2022

German Chancellor Olaf Scholz has raised the possibility of lengthening the life of the country's nuclear power stations. Berlin's decision to get rid of the plants has come under question amid energy security concerns.

www.dw.com

The German chancellor on Wednesday said it might make sense to extend the lifetime of Germany's three remaining nuclear power plants.

Germany famously decided to stop using atomic energy in 2011, and the last remaining plants were set to close at the end of this year.

However, an increasing number of politicians have been arguing for the postponement of the closures amid energy concerns arising from Russia's invasion of Ukraine. The issue divides members of Scholz's ruling traffic-light coalition.

What did the chancellor say?

Visiting a factory in western Germany, where a vital gas turbine is being stored, Chancellor Olaf Scholz was responding to a question about extending the
lifetime of the power stations.

He said the nuclear power plants in question were only relevant for a small proportion of electricity production. "Nevertheless, that can make sense," he said.

The German government has previously said that renewable energy alternatives are the key to solving the country's energy problems.
However, Scholz said this was not happening quickly enough in some parts of Germany, such as Bavaria.

"The expansion of power line capacities, of the transmission grid in the south, has not progressed as quickly as was planned," the chancellor said.

"We will act for the whole of Germany, we will support all regions of Germany in the best possible way so that the energy supply for all citizens and all companies can be guaranteed as best as possible."

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[mbpm]

Shouldn't have ever retreated from nuclear power imo

 

[19thCenturyFox]

Talk about learning the wrong lesson from a war that involves military action near a nuclear plant.

 

[entremet]

Shouldn't have ever retreated from nuclear power imo

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They were the only advanced economy to do so. It was so strange.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Talk about learning the wrong lesson from a war that involves military action near a nuclear plant.

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Versus the alternative of a country being able to just turn off a source which during a war would suck even more

 

[Xando]

Still don't think it will happen because the greens and their whole ideology are based on being anti nuclear but the german public has made a remarkable uturn in the past months.

Now we literally have 70-80% in favor of continuing to use nuclear and even 40% in favor of new nuclear plants.

(S+) Energiekrise: Warum viele Deutsche jetzt für Atomkraft sind

78 Prozent der Bundesbürger sind für längere Laufzeiten, viele sogar für den Bau neuer Meiler: Hat eine ganze Generation umsonst gegen Kernkraft gekämpft? Hier erläutern Menschen ihren Sinneswandel.

www.spiegel.de

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

Not gonna happen. It wouldn't solve any of our problems and no one is willing to pay for it.
It's just a fit thrown by neoliberal opposition and government airheads who now realize that renewables decentralize production and profits and therefore fear for their source of income and lucrative post-politics jobs in the energy sector. Nuclear becomes their hail mary as fossil basically pulls an exit scam.

 

[Sectorseven]

Maybe they can use NuScale's mini reactor that just got approval (in the US, but I'm sure it could get approved in Germany as well).

 

[Gemüsepizza]

That's hardly a "u-turn". He is speaking about extending the operation of those power stations for a few months, with the existing fuel rods, at something like 80% capacity.

And things are really going well in France:

EDF cuts output at nuclear power plants as French rivers get too warm

Company says it is reducing production for few hours where possible as ability to cool plants is restricted

www.theguardian.com

The French energy supplier EDF is temporarily reducing output at its nuclear power stations on the Rhône and Garonne rivers as heatwaves push up river temperatures, restricting its ability to use river water to cool the plants.

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However, half of EDF's 56 nuclear reactors are offline due to planned maintenance and work to repair corrosion which was delayed by the pandemic, just as Europe faces an energy crunch following Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

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The production cuts mean that France, traditionally an energy exporter, is relying on imports from countries such as Spain, Switzerland, Germany and the UK.

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Like, how can you look at the current climate situation with droughts and empty rivers and think "yes, lets keep using those nuclear power plants. Who needs cooling anyway?"

 

[Sordid Plebeian]

Good, nuclear is important

 

[entremet]

Not gonna happen. It wouldn't solve any of our problems and no one is willing to pay for it.
It's just a fit thrown by neoliberal opposition and government airheads who now realize that renewables decentralize production and profits and therefore fear for their source of income and lucrative post-politics jobs in the energy sector. Nuclear becomes their hail mary as fossil basically pulls an exit scam.

Click to shrink...

Looks like just a temporary thing. You're right. But now Germany and much of the EU is reliant on a maniac running a dumb war that can take his ball at any time.

 

[Dis]

Literally live 15 mins drive from a nuclear plant in the uk after moving to my house in 2018. Every few months since I moved there I get letters and info packages in the post about plans and such for another reactor to be built at the site. It's a reactor thats been talked about for years and years even before I moved and I honestly hate how much effort is having to be made to get it done. I understand nuclear energy isn't something everyone is keen on, but we need more power plants and the people against it aren't against it for anything more Than NIMBY bs reasons.

 

[carlsojo]

That's hardly a "u-turn". He is speaking about extending the operation of those power stations for a few months, with the existing fuel rods, at something like 80% capacity.

And things are really going well in France:

EDF cuts output at nuclear power plants as French rivers get too warm

Company says it is reducing production for few hours where possible as ability to cool plants is restricted

www.theguardian.com

Like, how can you look at the current climate situation with droughts and empty rivers and think "yes, lets keep using those nuclear power plants. Who needs cooling anyway?"

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I mean this is some shit we need to figure out. The planet isn't getting any cooler.

 

[cyba89]

I'm not German, but I am a fan of nuclear power. France kept their nuclear plants running, so I guess I didn't get Germany's retreat, especially with climate change and so on.

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France nuclear plants aren't looking so hot right now though.

 

[hurroocane]

Seems like Merkel's decisions with relying Russia gas and pulling the plug on nuclear are looking very bad in hindsight.

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I don't want to be a conspiracy moron but I can't keep the thought out of my head - what if it wasn't a "bad decision" but a calculated pro russia move. I mean she's literally out there doing events gloating about how she has ZERO regrets about her chancellorship.

The coming years are going to unbearably annoying on that topic. As a green party voter even I can admit that getting back into nuclear is at least worth a consideration but we're going to sideline literally every single issue that caused people to turn against nuclear in the first place.

No one will give a shit about waste disposal and safety yet again and internet warriors will keep shouting "no it's fine all of those are non issues" AND THEY ARE NOT NON ISSUES they NEVER have been in Germany. We're heading into a decade of conservatives using nuclear power as their personal political football while being complete NIMBYs about it.

 

[HumanRevolution]

Germany is actually exporting energy to France because their nuclear plants aren't working...

Yeah there never are simple solutions

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

Looks like just a temporary thing. You're right. But now Germany and much of the EU is reliant on a maniac running a dumb war that can take his ball at any time.

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Renewables were decried as not reliable enough, while everyone ignored that fossil fuels literally funded several autocratic states and criminal organizations. Being at the mercy of them was never reliable, but it was lucrative for many.

But now we need to focus on sustainable, reliable, safe, and equitable solutions. Nuclear power isn't one of them.

 

[Astandahl]

The fact that we are in a "no good solution" situation is just the result of decades of awful energy policies (TTF entire creation, subpar investments, etc.) which escalated to a whole new level the moment a key supplier (Germany used to love the cheap Russian gas. Perfect for keeping up the competitiveness of their firms) decided to start a war.

Excellent planning.

 

[bytesized]

France got nuclear and still their energy prices are not that different than in the rest of the EU's main economies.

 

[Tamerlane]

France got nuclear and still their energy prices are not that different than in the rest of the EU's main economies.

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Low emission energy that doesn't cost more sounds great

 

[Maple-Tech]

But now we need to focus on sustainable, reliable, safe, and equitable solutions. Nuclear power isn't one of them.

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Yes it is?

 

[Antrax]

Good, less ignorance around nuclear would help a ton.

 

[brawndolicious]

That's hardly a "u-turn". He is speaking about extending the operation of those power stations for a few months, with the existing fuel rods, at something like 80% capacity.

And things are really going well in France:

EDF cuts output at nuclear power plants as French rivers get too warm

Company says it is reducing production for few hours where possible as ability to cool plants is restricted

www.theguardian.com

Like, how can you look at the current climate situation with droughts and empty rivers and think "yes, lets keep using those nuclear power plants. Who needs cooling anyway?"

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Isn't the obvious solution to use larger volumes of water to dissipate the heat? In this case, they may have built the plants in a spot where there isn't enough water flow to achieve that, or maybe the manifolds/heat exchanger would have to be redesigned but I don't think the effluent water temp is really a big deal. Usually, the best place for a nuclear plant is near an ocean so I don't think lack of water would be an issue for most new plants.

The thing is if you don't build nuclear plants, you'll instead need to build some sort of energy capture since renewables don't have constant and controllable energy production. Huge battery complexes don't exactly seem like the most efficient way to solve that problem.

 

[Eggiem]

We (Germans) dont even know where to store our nuclear waste anymore...

 

[Sabin]

Yes it is?

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Stop Greenwashing Nuclear Energy.

It's a extremely wasteful, very expensive and unreliable technolgy plus we already had 2 worst cases happening and another few that got pretty close to it.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Stop Greenwashing Nuclear Energy.

It's a extremely wasteful, very expensive and unreliable technolgy plus we already had 2 worst cases happening and another few that got pretty close to it.

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I don't like this opinion but I will agree it fits in line with this news

Limping along these old LWRs past their retirement dates isn't the future of nuclear and shouldn't be encouraged

Dismissal of the technologies future potential and new discoveries is something i would like to see less of

 

[Nordic4tKnight]

Aren't the new modern Nuclear Plants way cleaner (waste wise) than the current plants running?

 

[Sabin]

I don't like this opinion but I will agree it fits in line with this news

Limping along these old LWRs past their retirement dates isn't the future of nuclear and shouldn't be encouraged

Dismissal of the technologies future potential and new discoveries is something i would like to see less of

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The Future is already here and its not Nuclear.

 

[Vilam]

About time. Europe needs nuclear power. Rejecting it is completely backwards.

 

[killerrin]

Just do it already! Christ what an absolutely stupid decision it was to kill their Nuclear Plants and replace them with more Coal/oil to begin with.

 

[DrROBschiz]

The Future is already here and its not Nuclear.

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You notice renewables cover a wide array of technologies and use cases.

That wide net approach applies to any viable tech in my book. Running around saying nuclear won't be a part of this conversation at some point is a ridiculous standpoint. Even renewables consume resources. Diversity of our technology and solutions is super important to me as is the science.

I refuse to say we shouldn't continue exploring and pushing Nuclear. No one else should either

 

[Planet]

This is a mixture of public panic, fossile energy lobbyism and surveys designed to give certain results. If you ask people to accept fracking or burn more coal or let nuclear power run longer (most only voted for that as temporarily bridging the crisis, not generally returning to it) they decide for the latter.

The biggest consensus from the very same survey, speedy expansion of wind energy, where 81% were in favour of, was mentioned as a side note. Sometimes even very prominently ignored, see here in these two different representations of the survey:

Wind energy expansion has been very successfully sabotaged by the fossile energy lobby in the past few decades. I don't want to turn this into a discussion about the sense or nonsense of nuclear power. Rest assured there are good reasons against it.

 

[Cupcake Knight]

The problem wasn't to get out of nuclear power, but the non-investment in renewable energy sources.

 

[LinkStrikesBack]

Like, how can you look at the current climate situation with droughts and empty rivers and think "yes, lets keep using those nuclear power plants. Who needs cooling anyway?"

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Because, not using those nuclear power plants will only hasten the climate situation. They should have been built on and far more widespread decades ago, then we wouldn't be in the situation to begin with.

But I assume you already knew that.

 

[eonden]

France got nuclear and still their energy prices are not that different than in the rest of the EU's main economies.

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Because of how energy prices are set up. Energy prices are set up with the most expensive energy setting the price up for the rest. Which means that even if nuclear is cheap, prices are set up by gas prices right now as long as gas energy production enters into the grid. Which is why there is a big difference between days that no gas is used (and thus most energy is produced by green + nuclear) and the majority of days where some gas is used.

 

[Jetsun Mila]

Because, not using those nuclear power plants will only hasten the climate situation. They should have been built on and far more widespread decades ago, then we wouldn't be in the situation to begin with.

But I assume you already knew that.

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No, how about you go and tell?

 

[LinkStrikesBack]

No, how about you go and tell?

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Well, I'll give this the kind of effort you put in to that response without being able to ask a question that makes any kind of sense in English.

Sky heat bad. Gas burny heat sky more. Nooklear stop needing burny gas. Less waste and vastly more energy than shiny ground panel or big sky fan.

 

[Phamit]

Seems like Merkel's decisions with relying Russia gas and pulling the plug on nuclear are looking very bad in hindsight.

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It was always bad not just in hindsight , because at the same time they handicapped the expansion of renewable energy and also didn't want to upset the coal industry.

 

[eonden]

Well, I'll give this the kind of effort you put in to that response without being able to ask a question that makes any kind of sense in English.

Sky heat bad. Gas burny heat sky more. Nooklear stop needing burny gas. Less waste and vastly more energy than shiny ground panel or big sky fan.

Click to shrink...

Less waste but waste that is more ouchy and last for much longer. If nooklear has problem then huge ouchy.

It is not like nuclear is the perfect energy source. Yes, nuclear was the solutio nfor climate change 20 years ago. Nowadays, solar and wind energy are much cheaper and have an installation time that is leagues faster than any nuclear plant.

 

[hobblygobbly]

I'm not German, but I am a fan of nuclear power. France kept their nuclear plants running, so I guess I didn't get Germany's retreat, especially with climate change and so on.

Seems like Merkel's decisions with relying Russia gas and pulling the plug on nuclear are looking very bad in hindsight.

Germany considers U-turn on nuclear phaseout – DW – 08/03/2022

German Chancellor Olaf Scholz has raised the possibility of lengthening the life of the country's nuclear power stations. Berlin's decision to get rid of the plants has come under question amid energy security concerns.

www.dw.com

Click to shrink...

Decades of Green party's and Green movements in Europe/Germany and their anti-nuclear propaganda, and Fukushima came at a convenient time for Merkel to get more votes by capitalising on sentiment of decades of worth of anti-nuclear propaganda. Nothing more complex than that, especially when you consider Fukushima was so far away from Europe, and there wasn't even that level of fear to get rid of plants in Germany when Chernobyl happened. If you talk to almost any Green voter in Germany which is a major party, they're all against nuclear energy, it's extremely frustrating and dumb

 

[behOemoth]

They were the only advanced economy to do so. It was so strange.

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France is building Flamanville's Unit 3 (1650 MW) since 2007 and still didn't finished after spending 20 billion €. In that same time frame germany doubled it's Windpower capacity to 50 GW, even though Merkels party could finally kill the expansion for the last 5 years. Today wind provides 120 TWh a year, which means that Germany could generate additional 60 TWh of electrical energy, while Flamanville 3 will only provide a maximum of 14 TWh a year if it's finally finished (not considering any down times or moderation, realistic would be 10 TWh).
Germany built 5 to 6 EPR reactor equivalents from 2007 to 2017 (the last 5 years were politically sabotaged by Merkel), while the nuclear nation France couldn't built their top priority nuclear reactor.
Nuclear power is simply stupid when you still have every option to expand on wind or solar. It's also no surprise that ROSATOM wasn't sanctioned by any western country including USA & Canada.

 

[Irrotational]

What "fixes" the energy crisis and climate change is less humans, doing FAR less stuff. Less travel, less energy intensive food, less heating, less air con etc.

I know the thread started by talking about supply rather than demand but demand is off the charts and rocketing. Any supply solution to fit that scale is going to fuck the planet in one way or another.

 

[MrKlaw]

France got nuclear and still their energy prices are not that different than in the rest of the EU's main economies.

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in the UK we have a chunk of renewables but the prices are still high. Market is fucked up - if 95% of your demand is met by low price renewables etc, but you need 5% expensive gas to meet the demand, then *all* the energy bought is sold through at that higher price.

 

[Captain Smoker]

From my point of view, this is a suitable short term solution because there are already some plants.

But I repeat myself every time in threads like this: nuclear has no competetive edge to renewables anymore if we're talking about new projects.

It takes too long to plan & build, the amount of energy doesn't outmatch large solar/wind farms and it usually costs twice as much to build.

Meanwhile solar/wind projects are skyrocketing in every corner in the world and the technology just get's better and cheaper with every new year.

 

[Tomasoares]

Can't fight global warming without Nuclear plants, imo

 

[rras1994]

The Future is already here and its not Nuclear.

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This may surprise you but it's not cus it's cheaper why the industry professionals want Nuclear, it's a predictable power source that is good for baseline power to ensure the lights are kept on when it's not a very windy day. I have a Master's in Mechanical Engineering. Every lecturer I ever had that were researching and trying to improve Renewables also wanted Nuclear as an energy source. No professional person I've ever encountered in Renewables has wanted Renewables to be used over Nuclear for base power, they've never had Nuclear v Renewable fights , they've always wanted both

 

[grmlin]

Germany is done with Nuclear energy. Simple as that. Aren't the nuclear plants even running out of fuel rods anyway? It's not like they will magically can produce more energy now that we need it. If I understood my neighbor who works in a (non nuclear) power plant correctly, they can extend it but in the end won't produce more but less for longer.
BTW: I always thought the "Atomausstieg" is pretty hilarious (even though I'm voting green) for safety reasons (Fukushima), as we are surrounded by a zillion nuclear reactors anyway...

What's silly is the fact that I have to follow a zillion laws and regulations before I'm allowed to install solar panels on my roof. And don't you think I can install as much as I can fit. No no. You have a garage? Fuck you in particular, you can't put solar onto that. Or these absolute batshit crazy regulations for wind turbines just to keep the coal mines alive a little longer.

A frustrated guy from Germany who is stuck with gas as it's main source of heat, fuck all that!

 

[bytesized]

View: https://twitter.com/JavierBlas/status/1556547693295685634?t=psf8--hSkuMQSwuPBsvV9w&s=19

 

[Micael]

Seems like Merkel's decisions with relying Russia gas and pulling the plug on nuclear are looking very bad in hindsight.

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When even 4chan/qanon god king Trump saw it coming, feel like calling it hindsight, is a bit generous. Genuinely feel like the only people who were in the know that didn't see it coming were those that were so deep lobbyist asses that they couldn't even see the sun from there.

This may surprise you but it's not cus it's cheaper why the industry professionals want Nuclear, it's a predictable power source that is good for baseline power to ensure the lights are kept on when it's not a very windy day. I have a Master's in Mechanical Engineering. Every lecturer I ever had that were researching and trying to improve Renewables also wanted Nuclear as an energy source. No professional person I've ever encountered in Renewables has wanted Renewables to be used over Nuclear for base power, they've never had Nuclear v Renewable fights , they've always wanted both

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Yaps, that price is only relevant if energy storage is taken out of the equation, which can only be done if there is a relatively green base power source, something that I would argue currently nuclear is the only option, if energy storage is taken into consideration that price jumps by many times, it is much like how gas/coal prices in these charts are never really reflective of reality, since extra costs relating to their damage to the environment that are simply not being factored into this, but are very much part of the real-world usage costs.

It should also be said when energy storage is taken into consideration, renewables get a lot less green, and given that nuclear from a carbon emission standpoint is already on par with the best of renewables (as in wind and hydro since solar is worse), that is also something to take into consideration, since at least for developed nations, short-term cost shouldn't really be the primary consideration for what sources of energy to build.

 

[Dr. Dr. Dogtooth]

What's silly is the fact that I have to follow a zillion laws and regulations before I'm allowed to install solar panels on my roof. And don't you think I can install as much as I can fit. No no. You have a garage? Fuck you in particular, you can't put solar onto that. Or these absolute batshit crazy regulations for wind turbines just to keep the coal mines alive a little longer.

A frustrated guy from Germany who is stuck with gas as it's main source of heat, fuck all that!

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That's because the CDU was (and still is) in bed with the coal and gas industry. Making it harder to install solar and wind power on porpuse to make it less common. While the SPD didn't wanted people in the energy industry losing jobs.
This is truly a case of green energy being too good and people with power and money, don't see it as lucrative for them. So fucking over the country and the environment for profits.

The Green also never just wanted get rid of Nuclear Plants, they always wanted to replace them with green energy at the same time. Instead the Merkel government replaced it with more coal and gas from Russia. What could go wrong...