It's crazy to me the app itself offered a full native English version!
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Germany appeals to nation to download coronavirus app
- Thread starter Bedameister
- Start date
- COVID
So. I live in an appartment block with two separate entries for three apartments each. I share a wall with the apartment next door, but not an entrance. I have seen these neighbours from a distance but as of the seven years I live here only on two or three occassions did I come in close contact with them.
Bluetooth goes through walls though, so if my next-door neightbouw gets Covid and uses this app like me, I have a high chance to get the notification I came in contact with a patient, meaning I should go into 14 day quarantaine. I have no way of knowing it's my neighbour I haven't been near in weeks. There is no reason for me to quarantaine and upturn my life and job, but I have no way of knowing that.
There literally is no good working system for this that doesn't intrude into my privacy. And the less-invasive ones like this not only depend on a high adoption rate it will never get (because to begin with not everyone has a smartphone, let alone one with the right bluetooth standard), but are inherently flawed due to possible situations as the example above.
Yes, so what? It's not because something adheres to certain (strict) standards it can not be abused or misused? Iirc there was already proof of similar technology that still made it possible to determin who was tied to a number. And you can think of instances where it becomes easy to determine who is responsible for an alert. There are also other ethical questions. What if these kind of apps become obligatory to enter a store or building? What if your boss obliges you to use it? What if they later want to use this app for other purposes, like policing? I have always been wary of these kind of technologies and I will always be, because the threath of feature creep is huge.
Korea and Taiwan also have heavy mask use, other means of contact tracing and lockdowns. They also both have a geographical advantage, with being respectively a peninsula and an island, which are both easier to lock down. Adoption rates of these kind of app are generally way to low for them to have a real tangible effect, especially as there is a technological treshhold many people can't jump over. There are way more efficient ways to combat this virus.
I'm very well aware you don't need GPS and that it works with bluetooth and anonimised data. But anonimised data can often easily be identified (We had a case here in Belgium where telephone data was used to determine the amount of visitors in shopping streets, and it was quite easy for the end users to ultimately tie the data to phone numbers). Read the rest of this post for more of my reasons to be very distrustfull.
Well, everyone who thinks he has symptoms better goes to the doctor first before he fucking presses the alert button on this app anyway, don't you think?
And I am sure the intentions of this app an its makers are good. But feature creep and abuse is real, even if at first it was not intended. I frankly find it scare how easy people here seem ready to jump onto this tech for what in the end will be more an illusion of safety.
Yeah the app is really nice. Took a brief look at the code and I'm impressed they even have the backend server code up there. Nice work all around. Installed it and will use it, hopefully everyone does he same
You can't do that without being tested positive. You will get a QR and TAN code to insert in the app.
You probably shouldn't talk about something when you are this poorly informed about the topic.
I'm stuck with the same conundrum that others have. Live in Germany, but signed into the British AppStore due to subscriptions that I had previously before moving here. The only way to get round this annioyance is to create a specific German only iOS account that you sign in and out off for local only apps.
Oh god.. how can one person...no. I am out of this thread already. Did you even look at the source code? Because you can look at it anytime one interesting link to get you started
GitHub - corona-warn-app/cwa-documentation: Project overview, general documentation, and white papers. The CWA development ends on May 31, 2023. You still can warn other users until April 30, 2023. More information:
Project overview, general documentation, and white papers. The CWA development ends on May 31, 2023. You still can warn other users until April 30, 2023. More information: - corona-warn-app/cwa-doc...
github.com
please then read more about that app/tech/source code before dropping some half knowledge about the app here.
- you don't need to get into quarantine. It's all up to you, but you can get tested if the app informs you, if you had any contact with someone. It's all voluntarily.
- SAP/Telekom/RKI simulated a lot of situations ( store / train /etc) to develop an algorithm which approximates if you had contact with a person, which tested positive. They are also trying to help Apple/Google (signal strength in certain situations etc...)
- your neighbour could also say "efff it", I don't inform my contacts. You know, it's voluntarily?
- guess what, you don't will have any proof/statistics if the app is really working in your society, since all the data is stored decentralised and anonymised. Exchange codes are changing every 2-15 minutes, the last 14 days are only stored on your phone and will get only uploaded if you want to inform your contacts and you are indeed positive (only possible if you have a tan)
and so on and on...
"Well, everyone who thinks he has symptoms better goes to the doctor first before he fucking presses the alert button on this app anyway, don't you think?" guess what, not all people are selfish pr...
We've had the exact same discussion about a very similar working app in Belgium (also anonimised bluetooth, also open source), which the government in the end didn't go through with because it would probably never reach the adoption rate it needed, and because there were to many uncertainties about it.
I am certainly no expert on this matter, but at that time I've read into it and searched for the opinions of both privacy activists and app developers. So I'm not pulling my opinion from thin air.
Oh god.. how can one person...no. I am out of this thread already. Did you even look at the source code? Because you can look at it anytime one interesting link to get you started
Former colleagues of mine even worked on it.
GitHub - corona-warn-app/cwa-documentation: Project overview, general documentation, and white papers. The CWA development ends on May 31, 2023. You still can warn other users until April 30, 2023. More information:
Project overview, general documentation, and white papers. The CWA development ends on May 31, 2023. You still can warn other users until April 30, 2023. More information: - corona-warn-app/cwa-doc...
I can't read code, so these docs are chinese for me. But maybe you can reassure me with answering some questions.
Some questions.
- what is the adoption rate needed to get this to actually work? Do you think you'll ever reach it, even amongst those that are actually able to get this app working? In Iceland it had an adoption rate of 40%, the highest in the world. And the authorities involved say it didn't have much effect, let alone that it was a game changer.
- Is there in your opinion absolutely NO way anyone can deduct your personal information? Can't you think of a SINGLE instance where it was possible? (One of the apps that were in development in Belgium had a data leak, exposing 200 mail adresses of users. Woops)
- Is bluetooth precise enough for this to work safely? (Even the inventor of bluetooth thinks not) For instance, my next door neighbour I share a wall with to the extent I could hijack the signal of his bluetooth boxes from my home office if I wanted too. But I seldomly come in direct contact with him, as he lives in a completely seperate unit (other hall even). If he alerts the app, will I get a message? Should I go to the doctor, or go into quarantaine for 14 days?
- Can you asure me this app will never be obligated by the government. And never be used (let alone obligated) for other infectuous diseases like maybe STD's? Because once the technology exists, it doesn't go away and different applications can be invented.
Isn't the fact it's voluntary part of the problem and why an app like this is inherently flawed? It depends on high adoption and the actions of its users. What's the use of this app if I wouldn't get myself tested afterwards?
And if my neighbour effs it, what is the use of this app? Again, don't you depend A LOT on good use and high adoption? And you don't have to be a prick to not use it.
You don't have to attack me personaly because I'm critical of these sort of technological holy grails. I've been adhering to a pretty strict lockdown since march, while the real pricks 'effed' it. I've been wearing masks when going out. Since mycountry opened up again more I purposedly kept my social bubble smaller than allowed, only visiting my parents and inlaws, even saying no to friends and siblings because I believe numbers should first go down even further. In April I called a doctor and had myself examined THE VERY MOMENT I experienced a symptom (short breath and coughs), and while they determined I didn't needed to be tested, I avoided going out for 14 days afterwards. So maybe direct your blame elsewhere in stead of strawmanning me as a selfish prick just because I believe an app like this, no matter how well the intentions and technology behind it, has too many ethical caveats. (Hell, you're already bullied in this topic if you say you are not convinced to use it)
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Well, you are dropping quite a lot of uniformed statements in this thread,, which are not even true or even don't know how the app/process works? This kind of "misinformation" doesn't help, if other people are reading your comments and think they are 100% true. Thank you. If you don't believe in this kinda app, well ok. Good for you, but don't spread half truths?
Yeah, it's voluntarily to install the app. It's voluntarily to start tracing. It's voluntarily to inform your contacts. It's all voluntarily, because there are people out there, who don't want to feel obliged to use this kind of app. And the fact that nobody is forced to use it, is also a good thing? Its just a tool to stop the chain of infection (additionally, to wearing masks, keeping distance, washing hands).
regarding "Well, everyone who thinks he has symptoms better goes to the doctor first before he fucking presses the alert button on this app anyway, don't you think?"
I've misread the sentence, my mistake. sorry.
The leading german virologist Christian Drosten commented on this matter in his podcast (link only in german). According to him it's an important tool as lockdown measures get gradually phased out.
Strict and fast contact tracing gets way more important in this situation and traditional measures, like telephone chains, are often too slow. The app is an additional tracing tool to identify origins of clusters as fast as possible and can make a decisive difference even with lower user numbers.
It's all voluntary. Once you get tested positive you get a QR code you can input into this app.
I knew very well how these apps work, but I've learned some extra details which indeed contradict some of what i said.
A lot of my misgivings and reasons to be wary, have not been contradicted though, let alone some ethical questions.
The fact that is voluntary is of course a plus. My point is that it is also an inherent flaw as you need high adoption rates for it to really be effective (next to some doubts of bluetooth is actually the right tech for something like this). There is at this moment no proof these apps have the promised effect. Look at iceland with it's high adoption rate where the effect of the app seems minimal at best. Or Singapore which had a more stringent app iirc and had to go in lockdown anyway. This all leads to my belief these apps have to many caveats to warrant its cost, even as it us only one of many measures.
Well, the guy in a similar potition in Iceland claims the opposite from experience. It can be part of measures, but the effects aren't as gamechanging aq expected, even with a 40% adoption rate.
For every trade off you make for security or health reasons, there better be a tangible effect justifying them. As of yet I've seen nothing to convince me using this kind of app.
Please stop trying to claim that there are security related trade-offs. Thank you.
Well, no one ever claimed that this would completely replace traditional contact tracing measures.
But traditional contact tracing gets slower and more ineffective, as we are allowed to meet with more people again.
There are no trade-offs and if this app can help to effectively trace back only one superspreader event it can make a big difference and was already worth it
Infected users need to tell the app that they are infected for it to work. Call me cynical but I think most people are too self-centered, or too scared about being monitored to do this. I doubt this app is going to be very helpful.
I agree. This is an automatic download for me when (if) available in Canada.
There is no real tech in moment, where you can kinda guarantee the users to be anonymous (see gps-concerns in other countries) and trace/log your contacts during the day (well, only your memory then. But still, you don't know/remember all people you had contact with (train, bus, supermarket). Yes, you could stay the whole time home, but some people still need to go/drive to work/supermarket etc).
I think the problem with Singapore is that the virus spread uncontrolled in homes of workers? The best method of uncontrolled spread is just a lockdown in this situations? (See: Hammer and Dance)
Well, look at South Korea then? (yeah, completely other tech, but same idea).
The question is: should we do nothing additionally to help stopping the spread and afterwards blame the government for doing nothing what's technically possible?
I already can see the blame-game "afterwards".
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Any application that collects and stores information is a security trade of. It can be small, but it can still be there. I am absolutely no tech wizard, but it didn't take much googling to already find This critique on the DS3T protocol this app uses iirc (it's at least the protocol that is deemed the most privacy friendly). Are chances of abuse small? Probably. Are those risks non-existent? Probably not.
And I want to remind you of the case where an (iirc Dutch) app the Belgian government had as one of the candidates leaked the data of 200 users during testing fase. A human error of course, but again...
It's not only security trade of, also an ethical one. Feature creep exists. When you create and install a certain infrastructure, it has a high chance to stay around and later be used for other purposes that may not be so noble. You're current government respects privacy, but it's not said future governments will or will not find ways to abuse these kind of infrastructures. Am I overreacting or doomspelling? Sure, I am. But it is a risk I am concious about, and I've sadly seen enough of these feature creeps in practice already with other technology. Many Belgium cities have smart security camera's to register license plates to enforce LEZ's. Okay, fine. Later the databases were used in the fight against crime. Nobody's against that. During lockdown there was talk they'd be used to check people going outside of their allowed postal code. Ergh.
Same with police drones with heat cams they use to find drug labs. During the lockdown they were used to identify people who went to their vacation homes while not allowed.
And than there is the trade off of our tolerance towards this kind of technology and or views on privacy. It's also a slippery slope argument of course, but we risk being more and more tolerant of more and more invasive tech. We've seen the same with airport security, where in incremental steps and under the vail of fighting terrorism we relenquished our rights and comfort ever so slowly. Already when defending privacy you hear arguments of people that privacy is dead anyway or that there is nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide. During similar discussions in Belgium when an app like this was in the plans, we had people actually advocating to make it's use obligatory if you wanted to leave lockdown. Who didn't use it should be forbidden to leave the house according to these people (which weren't random dude on the net, but opinion writers and think tank lobbyists) Well, that's the kind of attitude I'm afraid will become more and more widespread. If that's not a trad-of, I don't know what is.
And above all that, there is little to no evidence these apps actually do have effect. They will be able to help a bit, sure, but to make them really work as intended you'll actually will need bigger trade offs, like making them obligatory
There is no personal data involved, no e-mail addresses, no names, nothing. So there is no data to leak.
The server is basically just a database with codes that have been flagged as "tested positive". There seems to be no way to trace this back to a specific person.
I can understand that you are conscious of the risk that might happen in the future. But seeing what they have created, it seems to be transparent and the decentralized approach is the best way to do it. So instead of thinking of very unlikely what if scenarios, it would be better to applaud the current government for what they did and actual show them that this is appreciated. Maybe they are open to try somethings similar in the future with other use cases. And if the people are positive about it, then it should be a win-win for everyone.
There is and will be always abuse, but how it is currently setup, it should be praised and not teared down.
No, the question is what extra trade ofs we are prepared to make in stopping the spread, and how big an effect we expect before we make them. As I said, I have not seen convincing evidence the effect of these apps are big enough to warrant what they ask from us. For every country with an app where it seemingly works, there are many where the effect is at best tiny.
I think you're proposing a false dilemma, as if (strongly put) there can only be an app or a second spike. I don't believe that is true at all (especially as those apps aren't perfect to begin with). There are a lot of measures to do the dance, including smaller scale lockdowns, social distancing, keeping smaller social bubbles when numbers rise, broader mask usage, more work from home when possible, etc. We never know what the future will bring in terms of this virus, but one things seem certain: we'll be better prepared for a second spike than we were for the first, so with the right measures we should be able to keep its effect smaller.
Let me stress that I do applaud the care that is taken in terms of privacy and openess. If you need to do stuff like this, this seems indeed the least risky way. The question is (Malcolm voice) if you should do this in the first place.
(And that app I mentioned apparently did request some data, and it leaked. If this app doesn't request even a mailadres that's all better for it)
Osahi is just talking out of their ass and it's obvious they have no clue. Adoption rates as low as 14% are expected to decrease the spread of the virus. There are literally no downsides to this. You can delete the app any time. You do not have to do anything even when you where in contact with someone who is infected, you are just asked to get tested, whether you do it is up to you. This app is literally everything anyone concerned about privacy could ever ask for and it has been vetted by numerous independent organisations.
Yes, I think it should be done. Why not use technology to battle a pandemic.
Even if the cases in Germany are now low, we can expect a second wave in fall and if manual contract tracing is not enough like it was in March, this app should give a nice additional support in breaking infection chains. And that is the goal of the app. It's not there to fully replace the manual contract tracing.
There were studies in the past where a contract tracing app is used, it helped.
And even if further studies show that it does not help or the results are disappointing then you have this knowlegde and can use it for the next pandemic and maybe focus resources on something else.
As someone working in hospital, I'm also unsure whether it would be wise to use it or not.
You can enable / disable the the main function of sending bluetooth codes ("Risiko-Ermittlung") anytime.
Shouldn't it be still interesting enough to have this feature enabled in your freetime but disabled once you're at work in a "risky" but protected environment?
The dutch corona app had massive privacy breaches, hopefully the german one isn't exposing personal info for every person that uses it.
Any koreans in here that used corona apps? Many people cite it as the main reason why korea was so successful with corona so far.
Yeah feel like that is really worth mentioning. No auth via social media account, no phone number confirmations, no nothing.
Not at all a dumb question. I would guess that is the way you could check.
But the app doesn't ask anything from the user, no personal info, nothing?
What could they leak?
Already downloaded and asked family and friends to install it as well. I urge everyone to do the same.