German Federal Elections 2021 - 20th Bundestag

Bonejack · Oct 1, 2021

Cupcake Knight said:
We don't have a "voter will" or "Regierungsauftrag" in our Grundgesetz. This article is a good reminder of it https://www.freitag.de/autoren/jaugstein/kanzler-oder-ampelmaennchen (Just use DeepL if you want in English)

Besides the SPD is only ahead with 1,6% and had the 3rd worst turn out in history. It is impossible to say it is clear cut they should supply the chancellor.

Paul? Paul Ziemiak? Is that you? Can't fool me. It's you!

You don't need to have something in the Grundgesetzt. Looking at every post-election survey about who should be chancellor and what coalition is being wanted clearly shows what the german people want.
That is the "Wählerwille".

The CDU dropping almost 9% to their worst result ever is the same. That the SPD has it's third worst result doesn't matter, they had growth and ended up as the winner of the election.
That's "Wählerwille" here too, because the people voted to have the CDU drop like a rock and have the SPD as the winner.

Also, ultimately, what does it matter by how much the SPD won? Since when do you have to win by x% margin to have a "clear cut"? To use your own argument, "it's not in the Grundgesetz" how big the margin has to be. ;]

The CDU clowns, sorry, heads would be yelling from all angles about the "Wählerwille" and "winning the election" and thus having the "right" to fill the chancellor position if they'd won by even less than 1%.

cyba89 · Oct 1, 2021

Johnny Blaze · Oct 1, 2021

Cupcake Knight said:
We don't have a "voter will" or "Regierungsauftrag" in our Grundgesetz. This article is a good reminder of it https://www.freitag.de/autoren/jaugstein/kanzler-oder-ampelmaennchen (Just use DeepL if you want in English)

Besides the SPD is only ahead with 1,6% and had the 3rd worst turn out in history. It is impossible to say it is clear cut they should supply the chancellor.

You don't win elections and keep your voter base with technicalities.

"Just vote for us again, a regierungsauftrag is not in our Grundgesetzt" is not a winning billboard slogan for 2025 for the Greens, if they go with CDU for example.

Cupcake Knight · Oct 1, 2021

Dirt McGirt said:
"Just vote for us again, a regierungsauftrag is not in our Grundgesetzt" is not a winning billboard slogan for 2025 for the Greens, if they go with CDU for example.

If the Union agrees to more of the aims of the Greens it would be stupid not to go with them. The partner doesn't matter it is the question which one gives more to battle climate change.

Isee · Oct 1, 2021

Even politicians and journalists constantly talk about Wählerwillen. There is a clear mistrust against CDU/CSU. Of course not from everybody but loosing 9% of votes and about 60 direct sits could not be more clear.

It is pretty naive to think that most people are happy with just voting and than willing to accept any result because democrats were talking with democrats. People vote with goals in mind. I doubt anybody was assuming that one, single party was able to form the government on their own. Everybody knew there would be a coalition, like always.

So yes, a Black Green coalition is lawful and the constitution is not forbidding anybody to form a government. "Places" are irrelevant.
But saying that there was no voter intend to throw CDU out of the government in the first place is dead wrong imo.

Funny political side story. CDU wanted to have talks with FDP on Saturday, alongside Greens and SPD talking. But Söder declined, his mentor Stoiber is celebrating his 80th Birthday on Saturday and it is expected that the whole high ranking CSU cadre will be present. Which is also another middle finger from Söder to Laschet. Talks will be on Sunday night… CSU needs their beauty sleep while Laschet is weaker than ever before.

Irrelevant, but funny.

Xando · Oct 1, 2021

Haunted said:
Stoibers birthday party is more important than coalition talks, nice priorities Union. :lol

Söder clearly playing it smart to force Laschet out now. The only way Laschet survives is with jamaika and the longer it takes the more likely he is out.

eebster · Oct 1, 2021

Rory said:
I dont get it. Yes, the looks might be a factor and the freedom promise might be as well christian Lindner can talk, but other than that? Content of fdp is simply horrible.

WHY do people believe FDP can do Digitalisierung?! I dont get it!

Bundesministerium für digitale Transformation

- no explanation how they want to manage the conversation from paper to data.

Flächendeckende und hochleistungsfähige Mobilfunkabdeckung

- der offene markt regelt nicht wifi an tante emmas milchkanne!! Und es nervt mich immense das dieses mindset verteilt wird. Er schafft es nicht mal den internet ausbau in reichen vierteln von grossstaedten voran zu bringen. Das ganze wird dann zu kosten der nutzer gemacht, ich bezweifele sehr stark das neuwaehler 100-300 euro monatlich ausgeben wollen fuer LTE & internet festanschluss nachdem sie 1.000 euro fuer das mobile device hingeblaettert haben.

Glasfaserausbau: Der Markt regelt das. Der Betriebskindergarten der direkt neben der grossen, bekannten und einflussreichen Firma liegt hat eine 16k Verbindung. 2022 wird aber Glasfaser gelegt. Bis zur Firma. Der Kindergarten dahinter? Fahrt mal weiter mit 16k.

Wie man da digitale Elternabende fuehren soll, Elterngespraeche ueber Video, Einstellungsgespraeche von Auslaendischen Praktikanten oder einfach nur Speichern von Dokumentationen. Unsere komplette Verwaltung wird digitalisiert, mit 16k. Selbst das, was wir haben erreicht nicht den kompletten Kindergarten. Digitale Angebote sind in einigen Bereichen nicht moeglich.

DAS kriegen wir unter FDP Fuehrung, im Klartext: Nichts. Die Telekom hat keinen Bock den Ausbau zu bezahlen, andere Anbieter haben null Ambitionen dafuer. Wozu auch? Die telekom macht's doch.

dann haben wir orte wo das netz wechselt, andere anbieter uebernehmen und dann auf einmal anwohner informiert werden: ja ihre 25k, die haben wir jetzt nicht mehr. Aber sie haben die wahl zwischen 16k und nichts.

Digitale Verwaltung als Dienstleister
Many of our data collection is laendersache. Do they want to take that responsibility from state? The bund cant decide that. They cant collect all data in one center for OBVIOUS reasons.

Lets assume they could. How do they want to manage all this with germanys infrastructure?! It's simply not possible. Even if so, that will result in less freedom in the end.

Fdp promises digitalen fortschritt, and every time they do not deliver, not because what they promise isnt done. Their approach just does not work. I dont get it why people vote them for it.

It's not about policy. Young voters who voted for FDP for the first time are the usual non-voters. They don't care that much about policy. It's as simple as speaking the language of the youth, being "cool" and hip, using memes and being anti-left. Same type of voters as the Andrew Yang crowd

Perfect explanation

Kyougar · Oct 1, 2021

eebster said:
It's not about policy. Young voters who voted for FDP for the first time are the usual non-voters. They don't care that much about policy. It's as simple as speaking the language of the youth, being "cool" and hip, using memes and being anti-left. Same type of voters as the Andrew Yang crowd

Perfect explanation

so, based on the tweets.
They are idiots who follow neoliberal influencers who spout propaganda against high taxes and the mantra that you can be a millionaire if you just work hard enough.
The same dishwasher to millionaire propaganda bullshit that made the US such a capitalistic hellhole.

Xando · Oct 1, 2021

Kyougar said:
so, based on the tweets.
They are idiots who follow neoliberal influencers who spout propaganda against high taxes and the mantra that you can be a millionaire if you just work hard enough.
The same dishwasher to millionaire propaganda bullshit that made the US such a capitalistic hellhole.

Same old explanation we hear everytime something happens and the left doesn't get the votes it expect. I'm not exactly a fan of the FDP but they have plenty of policies that make them attractive to younger voters.

Telling yourself they are all neoliberal shills at 18 is of course the easier explanation.

eebster · Oct 1, 2021

Xando said:
Same old explanation we hear everytime something happens the left doesn't get the votes it expect. I'm not exactly a fan of the FDP but they have plenty of policies that make them attractive to younger voters.

Telling yourself they are all neoliberal shills at 18 is of course the easier explanation.

If you spend any time online outside of left bubbles like era or Twitter, you'll realize that's exactly what it is. Places like Jodel, TikTok, Twitch are full of FPD teenies. They are growing up in an environment and bubble that propagates those ideal. And of course those people will generally adopt those ideologies as well.
If a 16 year does nothing else than spend all day on Era, he will probably become a leftie. If a 16 year old spends all day on Twitch and Youtube in his own bubbles, he'll probably become liberal. This is just a simple observation. Doesn't mean they are "shills" or they are stupid or whatever.
It's not a criticism towards those kiddies. They have every right to vote for FDP as FFF kids have to vote for the Green party. It's just an explanation. And it's 100% true

Muffin · Oct 1, 2021

Xando said:
I'm not exactly a fan of the FDP but they have plenty of policies that make them attractive to younger voters.

Which ones that are based on reality?

I dont buy their digitalization pitch, it sound like "Markt regelt" at its core. A new ministry for it is the only good point.

I imagine cannabis legalization is one, but they're not the only party with that.

Education? They tried to reintroduce Studiengebühren here in NRW.

Cant think of much else for younger voters.

FliX · Oct 1, 2021

eebster said:
It's not about policy. Young voters who voted for FDP for the first time are the usual non-voters. They don't care that much about policy. It's as simple as speaking the language of the youth, being "cool" and hip, using memes and being anti-left. Same type of voters as the Andrew Yang crowd

Perfect explanation

Hell world...

Cupcake Knight · Oct 1, 2021

The Problem with the FDP of these days is they are more or less only for Economic liberalism.
I miss the old one with key persons like Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger.

Even the boss of Volkswagen is for more climate protection than FDP.

Bitch Pudding · Oct 1, 2021

[/QUOTE]

Cupcake Knight said:
The Problem with the FDP of these days is they are more or less only for Economic liberalism.
I miss the old one with key persons like Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger.

Even the boss of Volkswagen is for more climate protection than FDP.

VW put all their eggs into the BEV basket and now the boss of VW wants you to buy their BEVs. They don't give a single flying fuck about the climate.

Isee · Oct 1, 2021

Bitch Pudding said:
VW put all their eggs into the BEV basket and now the boss of VW wants you to buy their BEVs. They don't give a single flying fuck about the climate.

This.

At least they are heavily investing into european based mass battery fabrication now. Learning that some tech is not allowed to come solely from Asia. It is at least something.

And their E-Cars are ok. I'm interested in a Skoda IV Enyaq 80 myself tbh. (Skoda and VW are the same)

Randam · Oct 1, 2021

Bitch Pudding said:
VW put all their eggs into the BEV basket and now the boss of VW wants you to buy their BEVs. They don't give a single flying fuck about the climate.

You know that because?

Isee · Oct 1, 2021

Randam said:
You know that because?

Because VW plans to only build BEV from 2030ish.
It is their long term production plan and thanks to them already building solid state battery fabs they have quite an interesting technological lead, if they play their cards right. We are talking about cars doing 1000km for real.
Now other companies are also going for that like Ford. If I'm not mistaken. But everybody who isn't will start losing out. So VW wants harder regulations sooner because they know they can hurt their competition that way.

Randam · Oct 1, 2021

Isee said:
Because VW plans to only build BEV from 2030ish.
It is their long term production plan and thanks to them already building solid state battery fabs they have quite an interesting technological lead, if they play their cards right. We are talking about cars doing 1000km for real.
Now other companies are also going for that like Ford. If I'm not mistaken. But everybody who isn't will start losing out. So VW wants harder regulations sooner because they know they can hurt their competition that way.

I mean how he knows that diess/Vw don't give a flying F about the climate.

and where did you get the 1000km figur from?
that is something the normal person doesn't need. would be a waste of resources and money.

Bonejack · Oct 1, 2021

As long as it actually helps climate protection, i couldn't care less if VW/Diess is motivated by pure greed to be honest.

Bitch Pudding · Oct 1, 2021

Randam said:
I mean how he knows that diess/VE don't give a flying F about the climate.

You haven't been paying attention w/ regards to VW in the last decade, now have you. They basically invented green washing :).

Randam · Oct 1, 2021

Bitch Pudding said:
You haven't been paying attention w/ regards to VW in the last decade, now have you. They basically invented green washing :).

diess is their boss since 3 years.

Isee · Oct 1, 2021

Randam said:
I mean how he knows that diess/VE don't give a flying F about the climate.

and where did you get the 1000km figur from?
that is something the normal person doesn't need. would be a waste of resources and money.

First gen solid state battery tech should allow us to put 100-120kwh of battery-power into cars without increasing weight.
Current e-cars have around 70 kWh (usable) and are able to go for 300-400km based on size, load, weather, speed, aerodynamics etc. in real world testing.
So those cars should be able to go for 600+ km with energy density further improving over the next decades.

Quiet the opposite, the fear of running out of juice is a substantial factor that needs to be overcome to make e-cars appealing. 1000km is substantially better than what you get with most cars today and a good signal that fuel based cars are outdated in every aspect.

Randam · Oct 1, 2021

Isee said:
First gen solid state battery tech should allow us to put 100-120kwh of battery-power into cars without increasing weight.
Current e-cars have around 70 kWh (usable) and are able to go for 300-400km based on size, load, weather, speed, aerodynamics etc. in real world testing.
So those cars should be able to go for 600+ km with energy density further improving over the next decades.

Quiet the opposite, the fear of running out of juice is a substantial factor that needs to be overcome to make e-cars appealing. 1000km is substantially better than what you get with most cars today and a good signal that fuel based cars are outdated in every aspect.

why would you need 1000km of range?
like I said, waste of resources and money. when you can go from 400km to 1000km with the same batterey it would still be smart to half the battery and put the other half in a 2nd car.

Bitch Pudding · Oct 1, 2021

Bonejack said:
As long as it actually helps climate protection, i couldn't care less if VW/Diess is motivated by pure greed to be honest.

It is. But please, FTLOG, just don't use them as any kind of benchmark for being "pro climate".

Randam said:
why would you need 1000km of range?
like I said, waste of resources and money. when you can go from 400km to 1000km with the same batterey it would still be smart to half the battery and put the other half in a 2nd car.

Modern diesel fleet cars have 800-1.200km real-life range. But even the cheapest petrol cars can easily get to 400km and more. With the new batteries, new BEVs will get in the same range. So the big deal is not a new S-Class (EQS) which can drive 1.000km with a single charge, but entry-level BEVS like the Honda-e reaching 400km+, in real life conditions, which is basically Tesla Model 3 territory right now.

Randam · Oct 1, 2021

Bitch Pudding said:
It is. But please, FTLOG, just don't use them as any kind of benchmark for being "pro climate".

Modern diesel fleet cars have 800-1.200km real-life range. But even the cheapest petrol cars can easily get to 400km and more. With the new batteries, new BEVs will get in the same range. So the big deal is not a new S-Class (EQS) which can drive 1.000km with a single charge, but entry-level BEVS like the Honda-e reaching 400km+, in real life conditions, which is basically Tesla Model 3 territory right now.

diesels reach around 1000km because the engines are that efficient and it wouldn't really safe any money to make the fuel tanks smaller.
being able to reduce the size of a battery brings huge benifits.
like you said, small cars with 400+ kms are the goal.

Isee · Oct 1, 2021

Randam said:
why would you need 1000km of range?
like I said, waste of resources and money. when you can go from 400km to 1000km with the same batterey it would still be smart to half the battery and put the other half in a 2nd car.

1.) As already explained, it is an important milestone to flag fossil fuel powered cars as obsolete and BEVs as reliable.

Range anxiety - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

2.) There will be people demanding that kind of reachability.

3.) We want to use e-car batteries as home batteries in the future. If you have solar panels you can use them to load your car and then use 10-20% of your cars batterie to run your house at night.

4.) Do wee ned 16 core Ryzen CPUs for the OEM market? No, most people do not. But there is still a market for it and it is an important signal on the free market that AMD is ahead of Intel. It will be the same with BEV reach.

5.) Obviously not every car will have 120kWh+ batteries. But 70kWh, the current max., should become the standard. Making cars cheaper, reduce weight and size needed. Giving people 350km+ of range.

Cupcake Knight · Oct 1, 2021

Bitch Pudding said:
VW put all their eggs into the BEV basket and now the boss of VW wants you to buy their BEVs. They don't give a single flying fuck about the climate.

They need people to buy a car.
If you ask the FDP about climate protection they usually scram "but the economy".
If VW now says the opposite of this it shows the party is out of touch.
It makes the stands of the party weaker.

Isee
You don't this range in every car. Especially if it means more weight.
Also the average person doesn't need it. The average travel distance is way below the current range.

Rory · Oct 1, 2021

Xando said:
Same old explanation we hear everytime something happens and the left doesn't get the votes it expect. I'm not exactly a fan of the FDP but they have plenty of policies that make them attractive to younger voters.

Telling yourself they are all neoliberal shills at 18 is of course the easier explanation.

Again: What? Cuz i dont see anything the fdp does for young ppl

Randam · Oct 1, 2021

Merz going for CDU leader again!?

Isee · Oct 1, 2021

Cupcake Knight said:
You don't this range in every car. Especially if it means more weight.

That's the beauty of solid state batteries: Higher energy density. You get more energy from a similar amount of weight/space.
Never said 1000 km range is needed by everybody and new battery tech will allow to build 300-400km cars with lower weight, smaller chassis, smaller entry price levels. It is the right step for every direction.

Independent system thinking, where everything exists for its own purpose needs to go though. BEVs will hopefully be part of systematic, wide solutions. It's a bit hard to explain, but I'll do my best:
When you go with solar panels on your roof, you get plenty of energy by day and nothing at night. That's suboptimal, the idea is to "overbuild" car batteries and allow people to charge them during day hours and utilise during night hours. People will need cars anyway and this way you can get rid of home battery systems. You have one solution for two problems.
Higher battery size will also allow you to utilise your self produced or green energy in general more efficiently. A car that needs to be charged every day will need to get power from the grid on bad weather days. Which will be a problem, as that power will still come from gas powered plans for a long time.
A car that is able to go for a week without charge can be charged with sun power (even self produced sun power) when weather conditions allow you to do so. A significant increase in your self-sufficient and/or green efficiency levels.

More battery = bigger gap in-between charges possible = better green efficiency, less energy from coal/gas

It is an experience that my family is currently having. We installed solar panels and a 10kwh home battery. The difference in self-sufficiency when using energy the old school way (whenever we want) and more forward thinking is noticeable. For example we try to plan and run the washing machine only when there is enough power coming from the roof. We no longer use the oven and microwave simultaneously, induction herd no longer runs on boost etc.
Winter will still be shit, but even during cloudy, rainy September we were 96% self-sufficient, thanks to a home battery. We even provided 280 kWh to the public grid.

So yes, 300-400km is enough for the purpose of travel. But we need to start thinking bigger.

For example, imagine (new) apartment-buildings where every apartment gets a dedicated parking slot that allows you to not only charge your BEV, but also to use the car battery to get power at night. Hourly Energy Tariffs are a reality in some parts of the world already. Energy tariffs based on green production levels are foreseeable too. Turning on your computer on a sunny day will be cheaper than during hefty rain. Imagine being able to use your oversized car battery instead.

Anyway, I'm starting to schwafeln again and I'm also already in the year 2040+, first we need to find a way that allows people living in apartments to utilise solar panels alongside people owning houses etc. We need to counter the industry that wants to build regular stations for BEVs similar to our current gas stations. Charging stations need to be as decentralised and individualised as possible and much, much more.

Activists say that we need to change our way of living, but most people do not seem to think beyond individual steps like eating less meat, travel less etc. I think it means we need to relearn how to use energy, when to conserve it, when to safe it, how to prepare for days with worse energy production.

Maybe I'm dead wrong and it will be building batteries instead of cars, maybe battery farms will do all the work. I do not know what the future brings. But just looking at average travel distances and saying: That's enough for e-cars is the wrong approach imo.
We need to start thinking bigger and more forward. Solving two problems+ with established, accepted solutions. We need to safe resources, produce one product instead of two etc.

That's my engineering perspective, but not a study by any means. A lot of the "solutions" I'm introducing are not simple or easy to do. I'm aware of that. Look at them as just examples and not detailed plans.

eonden · Oct 1, 2021

The main problem of batteries is more recharge. Like ICE cars have a range of 400-500km but "recharge" is basically a minute or 2 at worst. For a traditional electric car, that time is way longer (30 min?) even with a fast charger (which also damages the battery more). Hence why electrical cars were mostly all about the single use range because that is the mostly expected amount of km it will be able to do in a single day.
It doesn't help that current "charging station" infrastructure is very much poor and means that most people are just using the same 2-3 charging spots in their time, which heavily limits the distance they can move around (charge home -> charge at other depot and thats it).

Solid State has both an advantage over traditional batteries from a energy density sense (so lighter for more energy) but also allow for much faster charging without damaging batteries, which could make "single charge ranges" of 700km+ while only having charge times of 10-20 minutes, making it much more competitive vs ICE cars.

Regardless, more than anything what electric cars need are standarization of charging methods. This would greatly help on setting up electrical charging points while also creating some targets for normal / fast. A big chunk of the Eurobond money in most of western europe is going into electrification, which basically means updating gas stations into charging stations (in some way or form) and help create charging spots in communal areas for appartment blocks.

Still, the more interesting use of Solid State batteries isnt even cars, but being used as proper energy storage mechanisms. They can be easily scaled to huge dimensions and do not suffer degradation through charge / discharge cycles as much as traditional batteries. This could be used as a way to save energy from peak time for other worse situations (kinda liek what the general plan for green hydrogen partly was).

Isee · Oct 1, 2021

eonden said:
The main problem of batteries is more recharge. Like ICE cars have a range of 400-500km but "recharge" is basically a minute or 2 at worst. For a traditional electric car, that time is way longer (30 min?) even with a fast charger (which also damages the battery more). Hence why electrical cars were mostly all about the single use range because that is the mostly expected amount of km it will be able to do in a single day.

That will also improve with solid state batteries (hopefully). We will probably need under 10 minutes per full charge... if the station can provide it.
Low loading times, higher range, no increase in weight ... that should be acceptable for most people.

eonden · Oct 1, 2021

Isee said:
That will also improve with solid state batteries (hopefully). We will probably need under 10 minutes per full charge... if the station can provide it.
Low loading times, higher range, no increase in weight ... that should be acceptable for most people.

Yeah, I commented on that in the next paragraph.
Regarding the weight. There will be always a weight increase linked to electrical batteries (unless we discover super dense batteries which isnt the case) just due to the difference in energy density of petrol and batteries. However, the user shouldnt really care. In the end, what the user cares mostly isnt the weight but rather things that have been normally tied to weight:
-Speed: electric motors just have much faster torque reaction and should be easier to engage into higher torques (tho at increased energy cost)
-Autonomy: here you have the tradeoff of adding more batteries having diminishing returns

In reality then weight for the average car driver isnt a problem. Now, if we are talking about special vehicles and trucks, the problem is not weight from the batteries but the weight limit of the things it can carry / do without the batteries being consumed in minutes (hence why there is slight interest on gas / hydrogen solutions for these kind of vehicles).

Isee · Oct 1, 2021

eonden said:
In reality then weight for the average car driver isnt a problem.

Never said it is. I'm talking about the fact that that more energy dense solid state battery tech is coming. As you said, it will increase range, but not weight of the system you are moving. For speed; that will stay the same, as you rightfully said: Higher speed is not favourable when BEV reach is you biggest concern.
When will the new tech come? I do not believe in the VW 5 years to mass production claims, there are still too many technical problems to solve, resource deliveries to sort and more. Even building prototypes is a difficult at this time. The Chinese claim to be able to do so by the end of 2022, but I doubt we will see more than a handful of prototype cars by then and even that might be far fetched. Though their plans to swap out batteries in existing BEVs for solid state batteries in the future sounds interesting tbh.

eonden · Oct 1, 2021

Isee said:
Never said it is. I'm talking about the fact that that more energy dense solid state battery tech is coming. As you said, it will increase range, but not weight of the system you are moving. For speed; that will stay the same, as you rightfully said: Higher speed is not favourable when BEV reach is you biggest concern.
When will the new tech come? I do not believe in the VW 5 years to mass production claims, there are still too many technical problems to solve, resource deliveries to sort and more. Even building prototypes is a difficult at this time. The Chinese claim to be able to do so by the end of 2022, but I doubt we will see more than a handful of prototype cars by then and even that might be far fetched. Though their plans to swap out batteries in existing BEVs for solid state batteries in the future sounds interesting tbh.

Iagree on that with you.
There is a lot of bullish talk lately of solid state batteries for cars for 2022. I call bs on that considering their first actual use would be as energy storage for power grid / houses and not miniaturized for cars (pls general difficulties of massive production ramp up of new tech).
We will get more long range cars in the next 2 years but mostly using traditional battery technology, just due to much more optimization on weight (and location) of batteries, as well as power usage optimization on cars. Enough to make them competitive with normal cars. Later on the decade we will likely see another range increase explosion which should make electric cars just the de facto choice (if they werent before).

Quixzlizx · Oct 1, 2021

Randam said:
You know that because?

Wasn't VW the company that faked the emissions testing on their diesel cars? Or am I mixing up scummy German automakers?

Xater · Oct 2, 2021

Muffin said:
Which ones that are based on reality?

I dont buy their digitalization pitch, it sound like "Markt regelt" at its core. A new ministry for it is the only good point.

I imagine cannabis legalization is one, but they're not the only party with that.

Education? They tried to reintroduce Studiengebühren here in NRW.

Cant think of much else for younger voters.

Yeah, I also don't get it. I remember watching those videos from die Die DavObem about wahat each party wants to do for people under 30 and there wasn't much.

To me it seems more like those would be CDU voters but that is grandma's and grandpa's party, so they go for FDP.

Isee · Oct 2, 2021

Quixzlizx said:
Wasn't VW the company that faked the emissions testing on their diesel cars? Or am I mixing up scummy German automakers?

To be fair, it wasn't just VW, but also Ford, Fiat, Citroen, Honda, Hyundai, Jeep, Renault and many, many more. VW was just the one that was discovered first and it was a good political target. I'm not defending them here, they deserve the shit they got for that.

His argument is that VW is a new company now, under new leadership that can be trusted to think greener. If that's what people believe, that's what people believe. I do not, especially not when there is a clear connection between VWs long term business strategy and their political demands.

Klaus Zellmer on LinkedIn: #batterieelektrische | 11 comments

Wir als Volkswagen Passenger Cars haben uns ganz klare Ziele und Meilensteine gesetzt. Bereits im Jahr 2030 wollen wir in Europa mehr als 70 Prozent rein… | 11 comments on LinkedIn

www.linkedin.com

In the end they are preparing for a fossil fuel free future, which is good. But it is more because they need to do adjust, then because they are green thinking now imo.

WinniethePimp · Oct 2, 2021

Cupcake Knight said:
If the Union agrees to more of the aims of the Greens it would be stupid not to go with them. The partner doesn't matter it is the question which one gives more to battle climate change.

I'd argue that the partner DOES matter. I mean, what good does it do if the other side "agrees" to everything only to then water it down later, or find loopholes etc. anyway? Recent example without necessarily comparing the two of course: Trump, who agreed to TONS of stuff at first, we all know how things turned out in reality in the end then. Not sure i'd necessarily trust CDU with climate change related infrastructure reform given their not so stellar track record, and history of basically just looking out for themselves and their base as a main priority.

Randam · Oct 2, 2021

Isee said:
To be fair, it wasn't just VW, but also Ford, Fiat, Citroen, Honda, Hyundai, Jeep, Renault and many, many more. VW was just the one that was discovered first and it was a good political target. I'm not defending them here, they deserve the shit they got for that.

His argument is that VW is a new company now, under new leadership that can be trusted to think greener. If that's what people believe, that's what people believe. I do not, especially not when there is a clear connection between VWs long term business strategy and their political demands.

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In the end they are preparing for a fossil fuel free future, which is good. But it is more because they need to do adjust, then because they are green thinking now imo.

because they need to adjust, they are demanding even more from the government?
wouldn't it for example be smarter for them to convince the government do something about the CO2 limits, so they would have to pay less fines?

AmFreak · Oct 2, 2021

Muffin said:
Which ones that are based on reality?

I dont buy their digitalization pitch, it sound like "Markt regelt" at its core. A new ministry for it is the only good point.

I imagine cannabis legalization is one, but they're not the only party with that.

Education? They tried to reintroduce Studiengebühren here in NRW.

Cant think of much else for younger voters.

I don't think first voters know or care much about what the FDP did over a decade ago.
And if they vote for them they certainly believe them and that's the crucial point - if you believe what they say their program is ace.
Solving climate change without new rules or restrictions, legalizing cannabis, fast internet for everyone, article 13 stance, lower taxes, FREEDOM!!!(braveheart scream).
The internet also replaced the TV for younger gens.
Influencers, Youtube-Stars, Streamers, "join the group and you will make it" people, Traders, Crypto, etc. there has never been a generation to which it has been so constantly and directly suggested that everyone can make it.
At the same time, the above groups often see the state as pure evil, if only because of taxes.

Lausebub · Oct 2, 2021

My little brother is a first time voter and wanted to vote for the FDP since they want to legalize cannabis and the greens are to öko and want to forbid everything. He is doing an apprenticeship, lives with my mom and has no car, so he won't profiting of most things the FDP proposes.

Isee · Oct 2, 2021

Randam said:
because they need to adjust, they are demanding even more from the government?

Daimler, BMW and co are significantly behind them. VW has a clear and faster execution towards BEVs, while other companies can not keep up with the proposed pace.
If you think VW suddenly turned into an altruistic company be my guest. I won't convince you and you won't convince me. No idea what there is to discuss, we exchanged ideas and disagree. Which is absolutely fine imo.

Randam · Oct 3, 2021

first talks from SPD with FDP and Greens.

postive feedback: https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/btw21/sondierungsgespraeche-spd-cdu-105.html

but the Greens have yet to talk with the Union. so who knows..

Pokémon · Oct 3, 2021

Of course BILD is trying to make Jamaika happen again. 🙄
I will be glad if this is over and Union is not part of the next Bundesregierung.

xyla · Oct 4, 2021

pld said:
Of course BILD is trying to make Jamaika happen again. 🙄
I will be glad if this is over and Union is not part of the next Bundesregierung.

This reminds me of the era when Merkel came to power and Schröder was kind of delusional at the Elefantenrunde. It was a close race and he didn't accept that he lost at first - then after a few days (IIRC) he took a step back and backed down. This is a similar scenario without the other party stepping back.

Bonejack · Oct 4, 2021

Yeah Laschet missed the window to get out of this embarrassing situation half-way "decent" about mid of last week.

Dude is losing more control of his party by the day, yet he's still delusional about actually get the power over the country.
Most political observers and experts expect him to be done by the end of this week.

cyba89 · Oct 4, 2021

Bonejack said:
Yeah Laschet missed the window to get out of this embarrassing situation half-way "decent" about mid of last week.

Dude is losing more control of his party by the day, yet he's still delusional about actually get the power over the country.
Most political observers and experts expect him to be done by the end of this week.

It's pretty clear he will stay in his position as long as there are chances for Jamaica happening. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense to hold negotiations with FDP and Greens anymore.

Carvel · Oct 4, 2021

Bonejack said:
Yeah Laschet missed the window to get out of this embarrassing situation half-way "decent" about mid of last week.

Dude is losing more control of his party by the day, yet he's still delusional about actually get the power over the country.
Most political observers and experts expect him to be done by the end of this week.

While I do not sympathize with CDU/CSU at all, I recognize a tricky situation for them regarding Laschet. Let's say, SPD, FDP and Grüne are not able to form a coalition – it's either Schwampel (it's "Schwarze Ampel" for all not familiar with the term) or SPD and CDU. If Laschet had stepped down and there would be a CDU/Grüne/FD coalition forming the next government, who would be the chancellor? While only 24 % may have voted for CDU/CSU, they at least voted for a Union lead by Laschet – not anyone else.

Well, obviously there is a chance that even the Union voters would prefer another candidate (maybe Söder or Röttgen) on top of a Schwampel gouvernment (come on, leave Jamaica alone). And of course, people do not vote for a person, but for a party in the German electoral system. But the precedent would be unparalleled. Not a single voter would get the chancellor they voted for in that case.

From Laschet's perspective the Union is in between a rock and a hard place. I think he will step down as soon as the Ampel coalition is forming to become a realistic option, which – sadly – it is not yet.

Isee · Oct 4, 2021

Carvel said:
I think he will step down as soon as the Ampel coalition is forming to become a realistic option, which – sadly – it is not yet.

He will be stabbed over and over again on the stairs of the Reichstag while leaving the building.
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