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Und nu? What is your prefered outcome?

  • 🟥⬛

    Votes: 3 1.3%
  • 🟥🟩🟨

    Votes: 182 79.5%
  • ⬛🟩🟨

    Votes: 4 1.7%
  • Neuwahlen

    Votes: 13 5.7%
  • Thor: The Dark World

    Votes: 27 11.8%

  • Total voters
    229

Isee

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,235
Die they as him about the illegal removal of the aktivists?

Sorry, not sure what you are asking.

Among other things Laschet saved the forest, SPD nearly destroyed it. He brushed the illegal removal aside. Question was asked by a very young person, who got a bit intimidated by Laschet and didn't push hard enough. Not that I blame the young person.

I'm sure you can watch it yourself on the Mediathek. It happened a couple minutes in.

edit:
starts earlier; but Laschet starts summarizing his position around the 7 minutes mark.
The removal of the activists wasn't illegal... according to him. They were attacking the police etc.
This is two days after the higher administrative court said that it was illegal.

Even a Lady in the background raises an eyebrow while he keeps on lying (~7:17). Those kind of moments were golden.

www.zdf.de

Klartext, Herr Laschet!

Im Vorfeld der Bundestagswahl 2021 beantwortet Armin Laschet (Kanzlerkandidat von CDU/CSU) die Fragen von Wählerinnen und Wählern bei klartext.
 
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Xater

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,907
Germany
You are telling me Laschet didn't answer any tough questions and instead went into angry deflection mode? 😮
 

WinniethePimp

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,399
EU
Eh i keep reading about Laschet's historically bad polling etc. but in the end there are still a LOT of people that are simply gonna vote for the party they have always voted regardless of what is happening with the candidate, so i wouldn't be all that surprised if the next chancellor is Laschet after all. Let's hope things will go differently this time!
 

grmlin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,294
Germany


I don't think it's hyperbole when she says: This is the last government you'll vote for that can actively do something against the climate change.
 

Palgan

Member
Dec 13, 2017
63
The 26th and following weeks are going to be quite the meltdown for political Germany...
 

Bonejack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,654
Refresh my mind, was yesterday the first time where a chancellor candidate was able to embarrass himself in two different TV shows on one evening?

Because god damn Laschet, first the kids made fun of you and then this Klartext desaster.
 

eebster

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
1,596
Exactly what I have been saying
www.dietmar-bartsch.de

Dr. Dietmar Bartsch | Ampel ist Wahlbetrug mit Ansage

Was will DIE LINKE? Entlastungen für die Mehrheit. Eine einmalige Vermögensabgabe, damit Multimillionäre und Milliardäre die Corona-Schulden bezahlen. Eine gesetzliche Rente, die niemanden in Armut entlässt und sich an Österreich …

There is absolutely no justification for SPD or Grüne to form a coalition with anyone other than Die Linke. If they do, that means they put more importance into a meaningless commitment to a military alliance than to their climate and social policies. And in that case I agree with Bartsch, it's a betrayal of their Wahlprogramm and their voters.
Not to mention that Die Linke is now collectively saying that they will of course commit to the NATO and do not want to let a government participation fail for this reason.
 

AmFreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,506
Eh i keep reading about Laschet's historically bad polling etc. but in the end there are still a LOT of people that are simply gonna vote for the party they have always voted regardless of what is happening with the candidate, so i wouldn't be all that surprised if the next chancellor is Laschet after all. Let's hope things will go differently this time!
Old people as a group make me mad, after all the shit that happened in the last 24 months and after all the shit the youth did for them in regards to Covid they still don't give a fuck about them.
It all depends on the media, if they find something that sticks (even a little) to Scholz, Laschet will win.
 

Isee

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,235
This shitting on old people is as annoying as old people shitting on young people.
They are parents, they are grandparents, they worked their entire life.

Talk to your grandparents if you do not want them to vote for CDU. Many of them will actually listen, you will be surprised.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,541
This shitting on old people is as annoying as old people shitting on young people.
They are parents, they are grandparents, they worked their entire life.

So because "they are parents/grandparents", or have "worked their entire life", we should not criticise them when they vote for evil, corrupt people that want to destroy our planet, our future? How about no.

Talk to your grandparents if you do not want them to vote for CDU. Many of them will actually listen, you will be surprised.

Genius idea, why has nobody thought of that before? Just talk to them, and they will change their minds!! Lol. Have you actually spoken to old people? Many of them either don't give a fuck and are only interested in their pension, or they don't even understand current politics anymore. And they certainly don't believe young people anything. They believe old, white men in suits that speak "nicely" to them, that talk about the church and tell them that nothing will change. So they vote CDU.
 
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Sonix

Prophet of Regret
Member
Aug 3, 2020
1,965
I don't feel generalizing an entire generation and dismissing them is the right call, neither for the election nor for this discussion.
 

Xater

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,907
Germany
My Grandma would say: I am older than you, habe way more experience, so I know what is right.

Ok, grandma. You do you then.
 

AmFreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,506
This shitting on old people is as annoying as old people shitting on young people.
They are parents, they are grandparents, they worked their entire life.

Talk to your grandparents if you do not want them to vote for CDU. Many of them will actually listen, you will be surprised.
I'm to old to have grandparents, i'm not young and that's probably the problem, i have witnessed them fucking it up for everyone who isn't like them (white, male, hetero, old) for to long.
A few months ago the AFD became the leading party in polls in Sachsen-Anhalt.
If they won a ton of people would have said gross things about the voters/east germans/people from Sachsen-Anhalt would you have defended them the same?
Is it entirely fair - no, because not everyone of that group votes the same, but that should be obvious to anyone with 2 brain cells and if a certain group always sticks out, at some point you have to be allowed to say that, how can you even discuss the fact/reasons/background/etc otherwise?
I mean half of Union voters in the last nationwide election (EU) were 63+, the curve was basically the opposite of that of the green voters.

And btw calling them out helps, the AFD lost 20% of their voters and the CDU won over 35% extra voters compared to the last poll in Sachsen-Anhalt and the reason for this were the reactions to these polls coming from everywhere.
The whole dynamic of this election campaign is to a big part based on that - the CDU isn't so weak now, because everyone suddenly realized they are corrupt as fuck, don't want to do anything about climate change or didn't do much the last 16 years, but because Laschet is such a bad candidate that people get called out for voting for him and that's also why the CDU is rising again, because the longer the time without new scandals the more this effect weakens.
Merkel with the exact same program would have destroyed everyone else.
The AFD is also weaker than it would be if it weren't a complete no go in society, this is even considered in polls, because even those who vote for them are reluctant to admit it even if the polls are anonymous.
 

Klyka

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,490
Germany
I kinda have the feeling I always have: Nothing will change with this election.
No matter what happens in the end, the next 4 years are just gonna be the same and none of the actual important things everyone hopes and wishes for are gonna be done or even considered.

This way I can't be disappointed.
 

Hana-Bi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,010
Germany
The only real coalition for change would be just SPD & Grüne. Everything else will be a shitshow. Sure Linke have similiar positions but I think there are just some ideologies that aren't really compatible in a coalition. FDP is probably the worse party thanks to Lindner, so any coalition with him will be a trainwreck.

But sadly the CDU will probably gain some % to just be in a reach or even overtake SPD again. Can't see a voter surge for the Grüne either.
 

Streusel

â–² Legend â–²
Member
Dec 28, 2017
2,408
Grüne and CDU are now going after Scholz. Habeck is preparing for Jamaika it seems.
Habeck did the same thing in Schleswig-Holstein with Kubicki

https://www.shz.de/regionales/schle...echung-gruen-gelbes-Geheimnis-id33306147.html

Außerdem plaudert Kubicki ein Geheimnis aus: Erstmals gibt er zu, dass er und Habeck schon kurz vor der Landtagswahl 2017 über eine Ablösung der rot-grün-blauen Küstenampel durch ein schwarz-grün-gelbes Jamaika-Bündnis in Kiel gesprochen haben. Und er erzählt, dass er damals als FDP-Landtagsfraktionschef nach der Wahl eine rechnerisch ebenfalls mögliche rot-grün-gelbe Ampel zusammen mit Habeck verhindert hat.

Denn nur wenige Minuten bevor der damalige SPD-Landeschef Ralf Stegner der FDP am neunten Tag nach der Wahl den SPD-Wirtschaftsminister Reinhard Meyer als Ministerpräsidenten-Alternative für den von der FDP abgelehnten Wahlverlierer Torsten Albig anbieten und damit zumindest Gespräche über eine Ampel erreichen wollte, erklärte Kubicki die Ampel kurzerhand für endgültig tot – und schob diesem Versuch der SPD damit einen Riegel vor. "Ralf Stegner war äußerst wütend", erzählt Kubicki. Dass Stegner der FDP damals in Kürze einen Alternativ-Kandidaten präsentieren wollte, "hatte ich – aus grünen Kreisen erfahren", sagt Kubicki gestern grinsend mit einer Kunstpause.
 

eebster

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
1,596
Grüne and CDU are now going after Scholz. Habeck is preparing for Jamaika it seems.

And that's exactly why I'm happy that Grüne is hovering around at 15% and are behind the SPD.
SPD under Kühnert and Esken will never form a coalition with the CDU when there are other options and I honestly expect them to prefer RRG. Grüne on the other hand, I feel like they don't have any profile outside of their climate policies. They have stuff written in their Wahlprogramm but I don't think any of those issues have any priority outside of climate policy. The Grüne are fine with everything, as long as they can push their climate policies. They would introduce a Vermögenssteuer with the SPD but also not with the FDP. They would do Rentenreform with SPD but also not with the CDU.
As long as CDU and FDP are saying "Yes you can have full power over climate issues" I expect the Grüne to basically overthrow half their Wahlprogramm and do Jamaika.

I want RRG. I think that the "new" SPD will seriously consider that. I am afraid and pretty certain, that the Grüne does not prefer RRG and would even prefer Jamaika over it. And I'm glad that they are behind the SPD and thus have less negotiating power. Imagine Grüne with 25% and SPD with 15%. I would genuinely expect Ampel or even Jamaika.
 

Randam

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,884
Germany
And that's exactly why I'm happy that Grüne is hovering around at 15% and are behind the SPD.
SPD under Kühnert and Esken will never form a coalition with the CDU when there are other options and I honestly expect them to prefer RRG. Grüne on the other hand, I feel like they don't have any profile outside of their climate policies. They have stuff written in their Wahlprogramm but I don't think any of those issues have any priority outside of climate policy. The Grüne are fine with everything, as long as they can push their climate policies. They would introduce a Vermögenssteuer with the SPD but also not with the FDP. They would do Rentenreform with SPD but also not with the CDU.
As long as CDU and FDP are saying "Yes you can have full power over climate issues" I expect the Grüne to basically overthrow half their Wahlprogramm and do Jamaika.

I want RRG. I think that the "new" SPD will seriously consider that. I am afraid and pretty certain, that the Grüne does not prefer RRG and would even prefer Jamaika over it. And I'm glad that they are behind the SPD and thus have less negotiating power. Imagine Grüne with 25% and SPD with 15%. I would genuinely expect Ampel or even Jamaika.
as long as Jamaika has a majority, SPD could have 45% by themselves..
 

Isee

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,235

You are generalising people. If this would happen based on colour or religion there would be a special name for that.
But I guess because your preconceptions are based on age, it's okay.

Spoiler alert: look up our German equal treatment law. Discrimination based on age is bad too.

I had a good laugh reading your paragraphs. Somebody with that much bias and prejudice complains that other people are biased and unwilling to learn.

The irony in that... though I'm not even sure you are able to see it.
Nor do I care.

A few months ago the AFD became the leading party in polls in Sachsen-Anhalt.

Just looking at Querdenker Demos. There are so many young and middle aged people present and voting for the brown scourge that is AfD. It's a bit unrealistic to only blame old people here.

And btw calling them out helps,

Call them out, talk to them, explain. That's part of the democratic process! Please do so!

But do not generalise people.
I thought that one sentence would not need explanation on this forum.


DISKRIMINIERUNG IST VERBOTEN | Antidiskriminierungsstelle des Bundes

Niemand darf in Deutschland aus rassistischen Gründen, wegen der ethnischen Herkunft, des Geschlechts, der Religion oder Weltanschauung, aufgrund einer Behinderung, des Alters oder der sexuellen Identität benachteiligt werden.
 
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AmFreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,506
How about we look at some actual facts in regards to Jamaica:
Am deutlichsten fällt die Ablehnung bei den Anhängerinnen und Anhängern von Linke und Grünen aus: Von ihnen wollen jeweils 91 Prozent nicht, dass die Parteien von Armin Laschet und Markus Söder weiterregieren. Für die Grünen macht das auch deutlich: Wollten sie nach der Wahl eine Jamaika-Koalition mit Union und FDP schmieden, müssten sie das der eigenen Anhängerschaft erst einmal schmackhaft machen.

Ähnliches gilt für die SPD. 76 Prozent der Befragten, die ihr Kreuz bei den Sozialdemokraten machen wollen, sind gegen die Regierungsbeteiligung der Union.
So out of all parties the Green voter base is the one who wants them the least even the Linke(!) is more positive in regards to the Union.
Basically the entire Green base is against a coalition with the Union, while in the SPD ~1/4 want them or at least are neutral to it.
And this doesn't even include the FDP as the cherry on top on the green side.
And again, you never know, but doing something that a single out of 20 of your voters wants to do, i don't know, doesn't seem like the smartest thing to do.

Umfrage zur Wahl: Mehrheit der Deutschen will CDU und CSU in die Opposition schicken

Mehrheit der Deutschen will Bundesregierung ohne CDU und CSU
 

Gohlad

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
1,072
How about we look at some actual facts in regards to Jamaica:

So out of all parties the Green voter base is the one who wants them the least even the Linke(!) is more positive in regards to the Union.
Basically the entire Green base is against a coalition with the Union, while in the SPD ~1/4 want them or at least are neutral to it.
And this doesn't even include the FDP as the cherry on top on the green side.
And again, you never know, but doing something that a single out of 20 of your voters wants to do, i don't know, doesn't seem like the smartest thing to do.

Umfrage zur Wahl: Mehrheit der Deutschen will CDU und CSU in die Opposition schicken

Mehrheit der Deutschen will Bundesregierung ohne CDU und CSU
Yeah, exactly. I can't see how the Greens can possibly even think of doing Jamaica. That would be complete suicide for them. Almost their whole base and the young generation that has placed their fate in them for our future would be betrayed by a Jamaica coalition. And doing it now when the Greens are at an all time high would possibly catapult them back down into the single digit percentages, because of the lost trust.
 

Hana-Bi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,010
Germany
Looking at BaWü and Kretschmann. Grüne in power don't give a fuck what the young base is thinking or wants. They already made it clear that RRG is not viable so they have a way out for going for Jamaika.

Lindner cleary wants Jamaika and despise an Ampel. Don't know if Habeck hates Jamaika as much as Lindner hates Ampel.
 

Muffin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,342
As a Greens voter who hasn't really kept up with this specific topic: What's the argument for stopping Nordstream 2 exactly? I know the Greens are against the pipeline. I'm all for focusing on renewables and not giving more influence to Russia, but is the project even preventing that? It's not like Germany is suddenly going to import a ton more gas from there, but is instead cutting out the middlemen that are Ukraine and Poland where existing pipelines run through instead for purely cost reasons.

I imagine the concern might be Ukraine losing that leverage as a non-NATO member after what happened 2014 and Germany having less of a reason to help them out. But that's really the only angle I can think of.
Asking purely out of informational reasons.
 

Martin

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,432
If we get Laschet thanks to the Grünen, I will never vote for them again and hope they lose all votes in the next elections.
And I say that as some who has friends inside the grünen ...
 

AmFreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,506
Looking at BaWü and Kretschmann. Grüne in power don't give a fuck what the young base is thinking or wants. They already made it clear that RRG is not viable so they have a way out for going for Jamaika.

Lindner cleary wants Jamaika and despise an Ampel. Don't know if Habeck hates Jamaika as much as Lindner hates Ampel.
Oh plz, not this Kretschmann thing, it's like using the CDU guy Scholz (because that is what Kretschmann also is and the whole reason he won) for your argument regarding the entire SPD. And a Kanzler has a "little" more power in his party than an MP who wouldn't even be effected by the outcome, because he won't even be part of the cabinet.
 

Hana-Bi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,010
Germany
Oh plz, not this Kretschmann thing, it's like using the CDU guy Scholz (because that is what Kretschmann also is and the whole reason he won) for your argument regarding the entire SPD. And a Kanzler has a "little" more power in his party than an MP who wouldn't even be effected by the outcome, because he won't even be part of the cabinet.

They were fine for Jamaika last time. We'll see how it goes but as I said it's probably more likely that we'll see Jamaika than Ampel.
 

Isee

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,235
As a Greens voter who hasn't really kept up with this specific topic: What's the argument for stopping Nordstream 2 exactly? I know the Greens are against the pipeline. I'm all for focusing on renewables and not giving more influence to Russia, but is the project even preventing that? It's not like Germany is suddenly going to import a ton more gas from there, but is instead cutting out the middlemen that are Ukraine and Poland where existing pipelines run through instead for purely cost reasons.

I imagine the concern might be Ukraine losing that leverage as a non-NATO member after what happened 2014 and Germany having less of a reason to help them out. But that's really the only angle I can think of.
Asking purely out of informational reasons.

In short: Because there is a chance that our dependency on gas will be higher in the future once we are out of coal, which will give Putin a lot more leverage over this country.

Why will we need more gas in the future? Because our energy needs will go up as we are phasing out things like the combustion engine and oil/coal home heating. And because Gas Power Plants are the perfect power gap fillers. They have the ability to go from off to on quickly and vice versa, while being more efficient than coal plants. For a stable power grid you always need to have supply and demand in harmony. No matter how much solar we build, it won't give us energy at night. Building wind farms in the north sea will give us more or less reliable numbers, but getting all that from the north to the south is bound to significant energy loss.

In a perfect world, we would be massively investing into battery and battery like systems to save energy during green overproduction, alongside building a green grid. But that's not something even the greens are talking about and even in that scenario we would need gas power plants as back up systems.

Instead our government is putting the duty of saving green overproduction on citizens and there is no plan to change that from either party!
Our solar grid is currently as decentralised as it gets. We are building 5GW solar per year and most of it (like 90%) is from people putting solar roofs on their own homes. The current government is hard limiting the energy selling price for those private investments. If you install a solar roof today, you will only get 0.07€/kWh that goes into the grid, while the average buy price is 0.30€/kWh. This gives energy providers massive profit margins while not having to invest any of their own money. But it also forces people to buy expensive home batteries to make the most out of their investment. The plan is even to give people zero money for "over" produced energy. And still people are investing into that tech like crazy. 16% of the "Einfamilienhäuser" in my city are already equipped with solar tech.
By the way, if you order a solar roof today, you have to wait for 8+ months. The infrastructure to build more than 5GW isn't even there...

California has the most reasonable energy concept. They are using nuclear energy to have a certain, low, base level of energy, they are massively investing into private, home solar panels and into huge, professional facilities. While building massive battery stations and new, even more efficient gas power plants.

That's a concept that I understand. What our parties are throwing at us are hashtags.

Long Story short: Because we have no clear, good green energy concept. We will probably need even more gas in the future. Because all we have is an insignificant amount of green energy, not enough capacity to save green overproduction and gas will be used to make up for that.




Beautiful
 
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crazillo

Member
Apr 5, 2018
8,186
Read today that CDU/CSU would be at 37% if Söder was the candidate instead of Laschet (scary thought, I don't like Söder at all). Have we really come to the point where people only look at the individuals, briefly judge their personal integrity (at best from Twitter scandals) and then vote for their candidate? It's so much more important to vote for a party because of their program, the chancellor can only do so much in our system. The survey result would fit to media reporting anout the election campaigns that never centered around any policy ideas outside of maybe the last 1-2 weeks. In contrast to politically interested ERA members, the electorate doesn't seem to care too much about progressive, liberal or conservative these days -- probably because most are still rather well off at the moment even if they know that harder years are coming soon.
 
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Hana-Bi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,010
Germany
Man, this is so fucked up.

www.zdf.de

Scholz und Razzien: Heikle Angelegenheit, heikler Zeitpunkt

Wahlkampfmanöver oder nötige Ermittlung? Die Zoll-Razzien sind für Olaf Scholz eine " heikle Angelegenheit zu einem heiklen Zeitpunkt".

It's like Hillary's eMails. They only wanted four eMail accounts, one CD and one file. So what Scholz was saying (they could have written those demands and not this shitshow of a Razzia which was delayed because of the Bahnstreik (double lol)) wasn't this outrageous the Grüne and CDU/CDU and the media are making it...

And yeah the Staatsanwaltschaft is lying or is reporting the Gerichtsbeschluss wrong. According to the Gerichtsbeschluss it was not a Beschuldigtendurchsuchung (regarding whether Verantwortlich der Ministerien were involved (that was the case according to the press release of the Staatsanwaltschaft) but a Durchsuchung bei einem Dritten (welcher nicht beschuldigt ist).
 

BlueOdin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,014
I think I never experienced an election in my lifetime in which it wasn't lamented that it was focused more on the personalities instead of the parties lol

Then everyone knows that it was always the case sure but this time it is more prevalent than it ever was

It go 'round and 'round and 'round in the circle game
 

Spine Crawler

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,228


I don't think it's hyperbole when she says: This is the last government you'll vote for that can actively do something against the climate change.

RRG. we could have had RRG in 2013 by the way.
Read today that CDU/CSU would be at 37% if Söder was the candidate instead of Laschet (scary thought, I don't like Söder at all). Have we really come to the point where people only look at the individuals, briefly judge their personal integrity (at best from Twitter scandals) and then vote for their candidate? It's so much more important to vote for a party because of their program, the chancellor can only do so much in our system. The survey result would fit to media reporting anout the election campaigns that never centered around any policy ideas outside of maybe the last 1-2 weeks. In contrast to politically interested ERA members, the electorate doesn't seem to care too much about progressive, liberal or conservative these days -- probably because most are still rather well off at the moment even if they know that harder years are coming soon.
no. söder has flaws of his own. he would have faired better though.
 

Hana-Bi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,010
Germany
Yeah, Söder is like the Jesus for some frustrated conservatives but I'd doubt the CDU would be over 30% with him. He's the most Schaumschläger you can imagine.

But really who in their right mind would want someone from Bavaria/Franken to rule over Germany? More money and more gifts for Bayern would be a nightmare...
 

Spine Crawler

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,228
As a Greens voter who hasn't really kept up with this specific topic: What's the argument for stopping Nordstream 2 exactly? I know the Greens are against the pipeline. I'm all for focusing on renewables and not giving more influence to Russia, but is the project even preventing that? It's not like Germany is suddenly going to import a ton more gas from there, but is instead cutting out the middlemen that are Ukraine and Poland where existing pipelines run through instead for purely cost reasons.

I imagine the concern might be Ukraine losing that leverage as a non-NATO member after what happened 2014 and Germany having less of a reason to help them out. But that's really the only angle I can think of.
Asking purely out of informational reasons.
the US is concerned that they cant sell their shit to europe.
Yeah, Söder is like the Jesus for some frustrated conservatives but I'd doubt the CDU would be over 30% with him. He's the most Schaumschläger you can imagine.

But really who in their right mind would want someone from Bavaria/Franken to rule over Germany? More money and more gifts for Bayern would be a nightmare...
I dont like Söder but do you have to bag on a whole region?
 

Isee

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,235
Read today that CDU/CSU would be at 37% if Söder was the candidate instead of Laschet

Aeh, who knows. This is pure speculation and should be ignored. Söder is just as much of a bullshitter than Laschet, who can really tell how people would react to him.
Even the CSU is loosing voters in Bavaria, despite Söder being their main guy there.

Spitzenkandidaten were always important, they always made or broke campaigns. This isn't a new situation at all. The biggest problem the CDU has is Merkel leaving behind a power vacuum of previously unknown circumstances. She is gone, no matter how you vote!
It forces people to check and classify every candidate, instead of being able to rely on the feeling of nostalgic safety that we germans love so much.

Further people seem to be aware that a radical change is needed and coming, as seen by the fantastic numbers the greens had earlier this year. Söder was the most likely Spitzenkandidat back then and the greens were at 26%, rising. The Baerbock smear campaign was unfortunately very effective, but I doubt it was able to do something about the feeling for a change. People are still staying away from CDU, after all.

Would CDU numbers be better with Söder? Sure why not.
But 37%?

That's a comical number imo.
 

Hana-Bi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,010
Germany
I dont like Söder but do you have to bag on a whole region?

Well, I mean the CSU always made an Extrawurst happen for Bavaria. Scheuers new Mobilitätszentrum in München, the blockade of the Nord-Süd Trasse, all those bad Minister from the CSU. I just don't like the CSU and their Küngelei & Vetternwirtschaft. I just can't see how such an chancellor would benefit Germany.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,090
As a Greens voter who hasn't really kept up with this specific topic: What's the argument for stopping Nordstream 2 exactly? I know the Greens are against the pipeline. I'm all for focusing on renewables and not giving more influence to Russia, but is the project even preventing that? It's not like Germany is suddenly going to import a ton more gas from there, but is instead cutting out the middlemen that are Ukraine and Poland where existing pipelines run through instead for purely cost reasons.

I imagine the concern might be Ukraine losing that leverage as a non-NATO member after what happened 2014 and Germany having less of a reason to help them out. But that's really the only angle I can think of.
Asking purely out of informational reasons.
Its a fossil fuel infrastructure in an era where we need to move away from them. It will likely increase the flow of gas into Germany for a while, and will also increase the power of Russia into the countries it flows into.
It is also a very costly infrastructure taht will be made redundant sooner rather than later.

Aeh, who knows. This is pure speculation and should be ignored. Söder is just as much of a bullshitter than Laschet, who can really tell how people would react to him.
Even the CSU is loosing voters in Bavaria, despite Söder being their main guy there.

Spitzenkandidaten were always important, they always made or broke campaigns. This isn't a new situation at all. The biggest problem the CDU has is Merkel leaving behind a power vacuum of previously unknown circumstances. She is gone, no matter how you vote!
It forces people to check and classify every candidate, instead of being able to rely on the feeling of nostalgic safety that we germans love so much.

Further people seem to be aware that a radical change is needed and coming, as seen by the fantastic numbers the greens had earlier this year. Söder was the most likely Spitzenkandidat back then and the greens were at 26%, rising. The Baerbock smear campaign was unfortunately very effective, but I doubt it was able to do something about the feeling for a change. People are still staying away from CDU, after all.

Would CDU numbers be better with Söder? Sure why not.
But 37%?

That's a comical number imo.
I assume they take the 37% as the peak vote CDU had before Laschet started to go down. However, I think Soder would do worse than Laschet outside of Bavaria... he is just much more right wing and would be hounded by some of the otehr staff he has said previously (and wouldnt be able to bs his way around him). Choosing Soder would be another showcase of CDU not understanding what Merkel did to the party in terms of range.
 

Spine Crawler

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,228
Well, I mean the CSU always made an Extrawurst happen for Bavaria. Scheuers new Mobilitätszentrum in München, the blockade of the Nord-Süd Trasse, all those bad Minister from the CSU. I just don't like the CSU and their Küngelei & Vetternwirtschaft. I just can't see how such an chancellor would benefit Germany.
It wont and I hate Bavaria for being so CSU focused. However they are at 30% or something now and thats a far cry from the 50% plus they achieved in the past. Not everyone in Bavaria is the same. Hofreiter and Roth, both prominent greens are from Bavaria.

Also its CDUs own fault for not being present in Bavaria.
 
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Hana-Bi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,010
Germany
It wont and I hate Bavaria for being so CSU focused. However they are at 30% or something now and thats a far cry from the 50% plus they achieved in the past. Not everyone in Bavaria is the same. Hofreiter and Roth, both prominent greens are from Bavaria.

Also its CDUs own fault for not being present in Bavaria.

Well, yeah I don't have anything against other Bavarians. I just meant Söder / CSU with my remark.
 
Oct 28, 2017
2,965
Its a fossil fuel infrastructure in an era where we need to move away from them. It will likely increase the flow of gas into Germany for a while, and will also increase the power of Russia into the countries it flows into.
It is also a very costly infrastructure taht will be made redundant sooner rather than later.

The thing is, we still need fossil fuels, at least as a buffer, and will for a long time. As another poster pointed out, even the Greens don't have an actual detailed concept for completely getting away from fossil fuels. As long as battery tech doesn't make significant leaps forward, we'll at least need gas-fired plants to jump in when renewal energy output is low. As we're shifting away from coal, we'll need more, not less gas for the foreseeable future

And we're already getting more than half of that gas from Russia, Nordstream doesn't really change that. It just bypasses Ukraine and other countries, which sucks for them, and maybe the pipeline should have never been started. But stopping it when it's 99% finished seems senseless

What really rubs me the wrong way are the US sanctions against the project, trying to blackmail the energy policy of a sovereign country that way should be unacceptable
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,090
The thing is, we still need fossil fuels, at least as a buffer, and will for a long time. As another poster pointed out, even the Greens don't have an actual detailed concept for completely getting away from fossil fuels. As long as battery tech doesn't make significant leaps forward, we'll at least need gas-fired plants to jump in when renewal energy output is low. As we're shifting away from coal, we'll need more, not less gas for the foreseeable future

And we're already getting more than half of that gas from Russia, Nordstream doesn't really change that. It just bypasses Ukraine and other countries, which sucks for them, and maybe the pipeline should have never been started. But stopping it when it's 99% finished seems senseless

What really rubs me the wrong way are the US sanctions against the project, trying to blackmail the energy policy of a sovereign country that way should be unacceptable
The problem is that Germany is basically reaching peak gas consumption in the next years, and adding a new pipeline will just push that peak gas consumption forward while still relying on the same provider and just making it easier for Russia to be even more of a dick to their neighbours. It is not the time to create new gas moving infrastructure as they will be made redundant in the next 10 years (both from an ecological and economic point of view).

Nordstream 2 is a 00s program that is going to be finished in the first half of the 2020s.
 

Xando

Member
Oct 28, 2017
27,346
Nordstream 2 is a 00s program that is going to be finished in the first half of the 2020s.
They actually finished construction last week and will officially go into action soon.

I never understood the outrage over it. It was pretty obvious most of the complaints from eastern europe were about losing transfer fees from being bypassed while the US complained because it wanted to sell US LNG at 3x the price.

The only victim i see is ukraine but that issue was resolved by the deal Merkel struck.
 

AmFreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,506
They were fine for Jamaika last time. We'll see how it goes but as I said it's probably more likely that we'll see Jamaika than Ampel.
I feel like running in circles, but don't you find it misleading to keep repeating that without even mentioning that it was a complete different situation?
Otherwise one could just argue that the SPD IS currently in a coalition with the Union and has been doing so for the last 3 times out of 4, i didn't do that for the same reason because the situation was completely different compared to now.
 

FliX

Master of the Reality Stone
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
9,876
Metro Detroit
Looking at BaWü and Kretschmann. Grüne in power don't give a fuck what the young base is thinking or wants. They already made it clear that RRG is not viable so they have a way out for going for Jamaika.

Lindner cleary wants Jamaika and despise an Ampel. Don't know if Habeck hates Jamaika as much as Lindner hates Ampel.
The Greens in BAWUe are not representative of the Greens elsewhere. Heck they still have that ass hat Palmer who wouldn't fly anywhere else...