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Gavin Moore (Demon's Souls Remake Creative Director): "There are no difficulty options in Demon's Souls, and there shouldn't be."

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LoadRunner

LoadRunner

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Sep 19, 2020
331
This game is going to make me buy a new TV before I want to.

Man, seventy bones and it might be frustrating. I played this on my PS3 and I thought it was hard. The difficulty makes it easier to resist this game as nobody wants frustration, but this the launch title that is must own imo. Classic material handled with care and a wearing a new shiny coat. Yup, I'm in.
 
SilkySm00th

SilkySm00th

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Oct 31, 2017
4,787
kubev said:
I only have one potential complaint about this stance, that being with regard to the demo that first showed off the game. How was it that the person playing so easily cut down enemies during the demo? If they seriously felt the need to adjust the game's difficulty for a demo (whether through player stat changes, enemy stat changes and/or equipment stat changes), and they couldn't be bothered to include something similar to make the game more accessible for those purchasing the game and playing it, then I think they should've thought of a better way of unveiling the game in the first place. It's pretty clear that they can make the game easier for the sake of marketing; why not do that as a kind gesture for the sake of accessibility?
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It's likely they just leveled that character up quite a bit along with his gear. Which you could absolutely do in the game yourself to make it easier.

edit: and as others have said if you need the game easier from the jump Royal + magic is there.
 
Greywaren

Greywaren

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Jul 16, 2019
9,899
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"There should be no difficulty options" is dumb. You can have a default mode that is the way it's supposed to be played and then extra options for everyone else who can't enjoy the game as it is. Absolutely no one loses with more options. Absolutely no one.
 
zombiejames

zombiejames

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,917
WeAreStarStuff said:
No buy for me then. I'm 37 with a family and demanding career. I get about 3 hours a week to play games. Can't be bothered to have one that just frustrates. I dropped the original after about two hours.

And people saying having options is a bad thing....what.
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Options aren't bad but not every game needs to be designed for everybody. Challenge makes Souls games what they are and if you strip that away, well, you don't have a Souls game anymore. Remove a core part of a game and what do you have left? It's like saying I really like driving games but want an option so I don't have to steer or brake. Do I really like driving games then?
 
Batatina

Batatina

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,263
Edinburgh, UK
I'm very excited about this game, but I think this isn't a good stance. It think it much better to make it less elitist and just let people have the option.
 
Glio

Glio

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Oct 27, 2017
24,496
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RulkezX said:
It's nothing more than pandering to neck beards that think playing "hard" games places them somewhere higher up the gamer hierarchy
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You do not understand it. When a game only has one difficulty mode and is hard, it is because it is an artistic decision and must be respected (Dark Souls)

When a game only has one difficulty mode and is easy, it is an insult to gamers and it should have more modes. (Kirby).

This is how hardcore sites work. There is an absolute double standard against easy games and in favor of hard ones because of elitism.
 
SplitYourInfinities

SplitYourInfinities

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Oct 25, 2017
2,133
If you demand an easy mode in Demon's Soul then you are not the target audience for this game.

Different thing are accessibility options tho.
 
Tovarisc

Tovarisc

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Oct 25, 2017
24,392
FIN
Cyanity said:
Agreed. The game is online and difficulty options don't work well with that sort of system.

edit - I wouldn't be mad if they added accessibility options though. As long as the original vision is still playable
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How it doesn't work?

You have Easy enabled? To servers A you go for matches

You have SoulElitist enabled? To servers B you go for matches
 
Kabuki Waq

Kabuki Waq

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,821
How is the checkpoint system? That is my one pet peave I dont like difficulty built on log gaps between checkpoints.

I just dont have time to go through a punch of enemies just to die qt the boss over qnd over.
 
LinkStrikesBack

LinkStrikesBack

One Winged Slayer
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Oct 27, 2017
16,346
Glio said:
You do not understand it. When a game only has one difficulty mode and is hard, it is because it is an artistic decision and must be respected (Dark Souls)

When a game only has one difficulty mode and is easy, it is an insult to gamers and it should have more modes. (Kirby).

This is how hardcore sites work.
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I don't think I've ever seen anyone demanding a hard mode for Kirby in earnest.

It's also not much of a secret that endgame Kirby stuff typically I would say is as hard as souls games. Those seriously don't pull any punches if you want to see everything.
 
Chettlar

Chettlar

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Oct 25, 2017
13,604
NewtonNextDoor said:
Accessibility is super important and it should be improved no doubt. But difficultly shouldnt be changed. That is the core experience.

If anyone needs help in any From Software game, i am there (you can message me) and so many others from From Software community (the whole subreddit) This community is extremely supportive of new players. We will guide you. We will be there with you from beginning to the end. You can share your excitements, your frustrations, your great moments! These games are unlike any other and you should experience them.

(There are some bad apples in the community but most are players like you and me with varied skill levels who remember what was it like to begin playing these type of games)
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And this is the other point in no difficulty options. The point is to compel people to play together to face this common foe. I have never met someone who actually couldn't beat a souls game, certainly with help. I even had my brother claim he couldn't, but when I offered him ways in which he could play he refused. Whereas I've met plenty of disabled people, some people literally missing limbs, who play them just fine.

The argument for difficulty modes in dark souls comes from ignorance of how they work and how difficult they are and in what way.
 
Instro

Instro

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Oct 25, 2017
15,001
The level of shit flinging over what amounts to one series in the sea of thousands of titles is kind of ridiculous.
 
Septy

Septy

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Nov 29, 2017
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Greywaren said:
"There should be no difficulty options" is dumb. You can have a default mode that is the way it's supposed to be played and then extra options for everyone else who can't enjoy the game as it is. Absolutely no one loses with more options. Absolutely no one.
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That's how every souls game is though. I feel like the people complaining about the lack of an easy mode have never really played or researched a Souls Game. Just because there isn't a menu dedicated to selecting "easy". Does not mean there isn't an easy mode.
 
Chettlar

Chettlar

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Oct 25, 2017
13,604
Glio said:
You do not understand it. When a game only has one difficulty mode and is hard, it is because it is an artistic decision and must be respected (Dark Souls)

When a game only has one difficulty mode and is easy, it is an insult to gamers and it should have more modes. (Kirby).

This is how hardcore sites work. There is an absolute double standard against easy games and in favor of hard ones because of elitism.
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What great concord of gamers is demanding a hardcore mode in kirby?

And there's a difference between wanting more challenge because your bored and demanding less difficulty because you can't be arsed or want to pretend you're defending disabled people. Because if that was the case you wouldn't ignore numerous disabled people who handle these just fine. Fucking people with cerebral palsy play these games.
 
Brix

Brix

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Oct 25, 2017
3,678
Nameless said:
Took my first real break from FromSoft & Soulslikes after beating Sekiro last year, and my play detiorated severely. But after a month straight of playing Nioh 2 to kick myself back into shape and the proper mindset...

nD2LWjO.gif


I need Nov. 12th like most need air.
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This is the muthafuckin mentality I want to see! This is that shit!
 

Absolute

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
2,090
Celebrating less options...well ok then. I'm glad other developers are making strides in accessibility.
 
XaviConcept

XaviConcept

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Oct 25, 2017
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Not to contradict my previous point but adding difficulty options IS a lot more work for the devs. Its way easier to make one game for one difficulty and polish the hell out of that experience than to design it for several difficulties and balance them all, it easily triples the workload and depending on the game and the studio size it could really mess with the budget.

A lot of people here just act like its a simple "add difficulty" button in the game engine
 
kubev

kubev

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Oct 25, 2017
7,533
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PlanetSmasher said:
That gameplay demo was in the tutorial area. The enemies there DO die very quickly.
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If that's the case, then consider my complaint retracted. It's been ages since I played Demon's Souls, so I remember very little about it. Was the tutorial area seriously that long? I knew it was the beginning of the game, but I swear it required at least a bit more effort than was scene in that demo.

SilkySm00th said:
It's likely they just leveled that character up quite a bit along with his gear. Which you could absolutely do in the game yourself to make it easier.
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You could, but that wouldn't be representative of how people would experience the beginning of the game. It's fine to revisit an earlier area for the sake of a demo, but I don't think the demo implied that was happening at all.
 
golguin

golguin

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Oct 29, 2017
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Bjomesphat said:
Great. The influence of the Souls' games on the industry doesn't exist with an easy mode.
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People who beg for an easy mode really don't understand how the difficulty influences everything about the game. The pace of the game falls completely apart if you can fly though the levels and waste everything in your path with an easy mode.
 

Deleted member 51789

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vmcb said:
yes, i acknowledged that my point of view regarding these games centers around the experience being tied to the difficulty. care to share yours or you satisfied with a snarky drive by?
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I've spoken about this kind of things multiple times in other threads on the topic.

And yes, it would require more development time to cater for a wider audience but it's not impossible at all and should be encouraged. You can also maintain the intended experience - call it classic mode or something and bam, the 'intended' experience is there for everyone. Put another mode in called something like 'Alternate' and allow people to change difficulty or other parameters. Under no allusions that this will require more dev time but if it's planned for from the start then it's very doable without costing a huge amount.
 
Curufinwe

Curufinwe

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Oct 27, 2017
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From and Miyazaki think this way, so no one should be surprised the guy remaking the first Souls game agrees.
 
Garlador

Garlador

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Oct 30, 2017
14,131
inspectah said:
As this thread proves, this decision was probably made to not offend the Souls Elite.
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Lol. Pretty much. I'm a Souls vet and even then I find the pearl-clutching at any mention of "easy mode" to be hilarious.

It's a moot point now, but if an easy mode was added, I'd still buy the game... and use it.

Raging Spaniard said:
Not to contradict my previous point but adding difficulty options IS a lot more work for the devs. Its way easier to make one game for one difficulty and polish the hell out of that experience than to design it for several difficulties and balance them all, it easily triples the workload and depending on the game and the studio size it could really mess with the budget.

A lot of people here just act like its a simple "add difficulty" button in the game engine
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While that's true, I'm walking proof that it can be done. I took my save, edited my stats so that I did more damage and took less damage, and found a perfectly reasonable difficulty level that allowed me to enjoy the game at a difficulty level that was just right for my skillset and available time. It took about five minutes and lasted me the entire experience. I had a blast as well and love the game immensely. I preferred it over my default initial playthrough.
 
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Blackleg-sanji1

Blackleg-sanji1

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Oct 25, 2017
56,650
Perfectly fair stance to take imo. Perfectly fair stance to not Buy it either for ppl(me) so they clearly know their audience
 
Mentok

Mentok

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Oct 27, 2017
3,574
These games never needed an actual "easy" mode, the difficulty has always been in how you approach it. You want easy? You could always farm and use magic to become OP (that goes for every Souls game I've played), or summon. You want difficult? Don't level up the character, or do challenge runs. I'll also say that Demon's Souls is probably one of the easiest to cheese through if you really wanted.
 
Cyanity

Cyanity

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Oct 25, 2017
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Tovarisc said:
How it doesn't work?

You have Easy enabled? To servers A you go for matches

You have SoulElitist enabled? To servers B you go for matches
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I guess you could argue that an approach like that would fracture the online community, which can get very sparse a few years into the lifecycle of a a souls game. But there are also a lot of options to help players steamroll through the game (we couldn't summon in the original release and magic is still OP)

edit - no but seriously, I don't think accessibility options are a bad idea or necessarily game-breaking in any meaningful way. More people experiencing the souls series is always better.
 
Ambient

Ambient

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Dec 23, 2017
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Instro said:
The level of shit flinging over what amounts to one series in the sea of thousands of titles is kind of ridiculous.
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I don't fully understand it either... again especially in this case which is trying to be a faithful remake of a game.

It's 2020 any game released now yes I understand discussions for more options for things like difficulty. For a faithful remake of a 2009 game which main draw was the single harder difficulty... I don't get how people can get so riled up about this specific case.

Edit: This is coming from someone who never beat the original because it was very hard for me but I'm looking forward to trying again.
 
MegaSackman

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Oct 27, 2017
17,690
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I agree but again, why is the mc one shotting (or so) every enemy? Is for demo purposes? I played very little of Demon's but I don't recall enemies dying so quickly.
 
Glio

Glio

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Chettlar said:
What great concord of gamers is demanding a hardcore mode in kirby?

And there's a difference between wanting more challenge because your bored and demanding less difficulty because you can't be arsed or want to pretend you're defending disabled people.
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I haven't even mentioned disabled people. I simply find it deeply hypocritical how gamers see it more legitimate to defend hard games than easy games.

"I want more difficulty because I'm bored" has absolutely the same value as "I want less difficulty because I don't want to strain." There is no intrinsically superior value in a game being difficult. There is no difference.
 

zero71

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Dec 4, 2017
232
My take - souls games have never been about the story. If you make it easy, there's really not much to experience. Most would shrug and ask what all the fuss was about and give it a poor score. There's no real plot, nothing to draw you in. But add in the difficulty, that tension that you might just take a couple of hits and die, again, before you get to the next bonfire. That's what makes the game. It's all about tension.

Once you level up a bit and go back to revisit areas you've already completed it becomes a tedious, easy, 1 hit kill experience. That's what easy mode would be like right from the start, or somewhere in-between, and it would get slated. When you take out the difficulty it would be a really average experience. It would need a total re-design to make it a good game without the difficulty. I reckon they never added a difficulty to this because they couldn't find a way to do it without making the game feel a bit shit.
 
Tovarisc

Tovarisc

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Cyanity said:
I guess you could argue that an approach like that would fracture the online community, which can get very sparse a few years into the lifecycle of a a souls game. But there are also a lot of options to help players steamroll through the game (we couldn't summon in the original release and magic is still OP)
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Without having accessibility options like difficulty you never have that X thousand more players to lose as they will never buy your game.
 
4 Get!

4 Get!

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Apr 8, 2019
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In terms of difficulty here are my rankings(from hardest to easiest):

Sekiro > Dark Souls 2 > Dark Souls 3 > Dark Souls > Bloodborne > Demon's Souls

Rankings(my favorite game to least favorite):

Bloodborne > Dark Souls > Demon's Souls > Dark Souls 2 > Dark Souls 3 > Sekiro
 
Leo-Tyrant

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Jan 14, 2019
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Snake__ said:
For real
I dont understand why this concept is so hard for people to grasp
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Agreed.

Why is this artificial barrier being so supported here in ERA? In real life most of us wouldn't be able to fight with all of that armor on, against those enemies (of course), but in a GAME, since we are controlling a virtual character without the constraints of the real world, we ALL can. Right?

INCORRECT.

Some people just cant.

Why aren't there OPTIONS that allow MORE people to enjoy the experience? Options being there dont necessarily mean the hardcore aspect of the core experience will be affected (they are just options after all).
  • You want the core hard experience intact = fantastic, please proceed in normal (hard in these games).
  • You want an easier experience, that does not affect players who picked the hard experience? = fantastic, please proceed with easy.
As a side note:
After almost a decade, I was finally able to enjoy the Dark Souls Trilogy...on the PC, with ...cheats. I basically gave me more health and more attack power (similar to an EASIER setting I would assume). I cannot do this in consoles.
 
Chettlar

Chettlar

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Glio said:
I haven't even mentioned disabled people. I simply find it deeply hypocritical how gamers see it more legitimate to defend hard games than easy games.

"I want more difficulty because I'm bored" has absolutely the same value as "I want less difficulty because I don't want to strain." There is no intrinsically superior value in a game being difficult. There is no difference.
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Wanting more going on and more required of you is pretty damn different from wanting less.

A game with something taken away, loses identity. But adding to a game doesn't remove identity. At best it can obscure it.

And the reason I brought up disabilities is because I don't see anyone trying to use any kind of moral justification for asking for more difficulty in kirby. It's a very small amount of vocal people.
 
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